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Importing a UK-standard deactivated firearm...

  • 16-01-2012 02:08PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭


    into the Republic.

    How to, please, from experts - REAL experts, please.

    I can't seem to find anything in the way of the legal requirment.

    I HAVE heard, however, that one person was told that taking the firing pin out was a good way to deactivate a firearm.

    Hmmmm.

    Let's show you what HAS to happen here in the UK, just to give you an idea....

    THIS is what MUST be done to a firearm [handgun] in the UK to comply with the Proof House deactivation standards, as laid down by the relevant section of the amended Firearms Acts.

    Revolver -

    1. The barrel must be plugged for ~90% of its overall length by the insertion of an immovable metal rod - usually pressed in by machine. This plug must be clearly visible when viewing the arm from the front. The space at the rear/breech end of the barrel must not be long enough to contain any live cartridge.

    2. A portion of the forcing cone end of the barrel must be mechanically removed by milling or cutting for at least 1/2" - leading up to the rear end of the barrel plug. In some instances a simple 1/8" cut along the underneath of a substantial portion of the barrel will suffice

    3. The recoil shield must have a conical or spherical surface milled or ground into it so as to remove the major or whole part of the firing pin protrusion - additionally [where possible] the firing pin assembly must be removed irreplaceably.

    4. The entire internal part of the cylinder shall be cut away and an annulus of dissimilar material shall be welded into its place, to prevent the loading of ANY form of ammunition - the external appearance of the cylinder, when viewed from the side, does not appear to be different form that of an operating firearm.

    Semi-automatic handgun.

    1. Same deal with the barrel, except that the entire loading ramp is removed.

    2. The side-rails [on which the slide operates] are partially cut away.

    3. The face of the breech-block is removed at an angle of 45%.

    This work is examined in either Proof House and if accepted, finalised by the superimposition of a series of D/A proof stamps applied to the exterior of all the main parts of the firearm, and a deactivation certificate is then issued. This is a legal document, like a proof certificate, and must accompany the deactivated firearm wherever it is offered for sale, as it is the real proof that the deactivation has been carried out to the required standard.

    Anything less than this is NOT deemed a deactivation here in UK and is illegal. If any part of the above-noted process is left out, the in law the firearm is NOT deactivated, and the owner is liable to face seizure and the possibility of criminal procedings.

    Note also that NO other country's version of deactivation is acceptable in the UK.

    tac


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    That sounds like the "new" spec Deac,in which you basically turn the gun into an awkward hi tech club.:(.Is the old spec not acceptable anymore even with UK proof house cert?
    Its a hard one over here,as the legislation was written in mind for fammlies to keep great grandads Mauser orLee Enfield "Auxie killer":) in the fammily rather than for collectors.

    From what I see of it.Either the UK old or new style deact is acceptable here .IOW lump of metal,or able to strip,cock and dry fire.But unless you have a machine shop handy and a bin of parts, impossible to react with normal tools.
    By and large the EU standard of deact is the same as the Old UK deact.What you do need is a letter from your local Superintendant to posses such.It isnt a liscense,and ASFIK its lifelong and for free.
    The fun bit is apprently getting it to Garda ballistics so that they can test fire it and make sure it is deactivated....:D How you test fire a deact is beyond me,so go figure on that one.That seems to be it in a nutshell over here.
    Opinions advice and mileage may vary on this.:pac:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 534 ✭✭✭harmoniums


    So on a revolver the barrel, cylinder, firing pin hole, and firing pin are rendered unusable. but the frame is basically sound (apart from the area around the firing pin hole)

    Are barrels, cylinders and hammers controlled parts in the UK? they aren't in the USA and can be bought freely, hence a re-act would be fairly trivial (in the US at least) with a screw driver and action wrench and a dot from a TIG welder!

    Then again anything is possible to the suitably motivated.

    A more complete de-act for a revolver (if I was writing the law) would involve shaving the top strap such that it would become a hand grenade in the hands of someone trying to re-act.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Thank you , Gentlemen, for your replies, and yes, I'd imagine that sending in your paperweight to test-fire might pose problems.

    @Harmoniums - you wrote - So on a revolver the barrel, cylinder, firing pin hole, and firing pin are rendered unusable. but the frame is basically sound (apart from the area around the firing pin hole)

    Yes, that's true, but remember that the frame is cut where the barrel fits into it.

    Are barrels, cylinders and hammers controlled parts in the UK? they aren't in the USA and can be bought freely, hence a re-act would be fairly trivial (in the US at least) with a screw driver and action wrench and a dot from a TIG welder!

    Barrels and cylinders are one-for-one replacements and then have to be proofed in situ on the gun. Hammers are not a controlled part.

    Then again anything is possible to the suitably motivated.

    The penalties for reconstituting a formerly deactivated firearm [where possible], for the purposes of using it for acts of criminality vary from ten to twelve years jail - and why would anybody go to the trouble when illegal guns are so easy to find? Incidentally, a father and son team doing just that are currently both serving 14 years.

    A more complete de-act for a revolver (if I was writing the law) would involve shaving the top strap such that it would become a hand grenade in the hands of someone trying to re-act.

    My kind of thinking, too.

    Best wishes and thanks again.

    tac


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tac foley wrote: »
    A more complete de-act for a revolver (if I was writing the law) would involve shaving the top strap such that it would become a hand grenade in the hands of someone trying to re-act.

    My kind of thinking, too.

    Best wishes and thanks again.

    tac

    Wasnt that the entire concept behind the Brocock air cartridge guns?
    Weaken them in their structual entireity so if a live shell was used it would turn into a handgrenade minus saftey lever and you still holding it??:)
    Or was it some overhyped gang murder that made these illegal in the UK?
    BTW Brocock are still freely available in Germany.Transarms.com I think still will convert any pistol you want into a Brocock styleair gun

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    @Grizzly 45 - you wrote - Wasnt that the entire concept behind the Brocock air cartridge guns?
    Weaken them in their structual entireity so if a live shell was used it would turn into a handgrenade minus saftey lever and you still holding it??
    Or was it some overhyped gang murder that made these illegal in the UK?
    BTW Brocock are still freely available in Germany.Transarms.com I think still will convert any pistol you want into a Brocock styleair gun


    I was quoting Harmonium's suggestion - that was not mine - I was simply agreeing with him.

    Please don't trivialise the use of the-then easily obtainable Brocock handguns to kill and maim people after conversion to shooting live ammunition. I was personally in court on at least fifteen occasions in my job as a Crown Prosecution Sevice Expert Witness giving evidence in cases where one of these guns had been converted into a live-firing firearm used to cause death or serious injury, so the possibility of conversion to use in criminality is/was very real.

    A fellow club member has the largest collection of Brocock arms in the country, perhaps in the world, well over three hundred of them, many of them unique models that never made it into production. I have not seen a single one of the many that he has brought along for us to play with that has been weakened as you suggest. But then, they are no longer on sale here in UK, nor have they been since they were banned a number of years ago. His are all licenced as firearms, even though they are only airguns.

    However, he is prohibited from selling any one of them to any other person. All he can do is hand them in to the police for destruction if he no longer wants to keep them - they are NOT transferable to another person's licence.

    tac


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,230 ✭✭✭chem


    Hi Tac,

    I heared, they were putting blanks into the chambers, behind the pellet?

    I Would have taught the pellet, would have been split to pieces, leaving the barrel? under the pressure!!

    Do I remember, maybe sparks posting some EU law, in the pipeline, that ment every EU country had to have a law on how to de-act a gun?? None here, that I know of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    When I first thought about buying deactivated firearms I contacted my local firearms officer who arranged for the local crime prevention officer to call to my house to access the security of the place.He said at the time to hold deacts would require a gun safe bolted to the wall for rifles plus a monitored alarm for hand guns.He in turn made what recommendations were necessary and forwarded these to the firearms officer.The firearms officer then contacted me and told me what I had to install in the house to meet these requirements and told me it would be inspected by him to make sure all that was asked was done,which he did.Two Guards came to my house and inspected the gun safe before any paperwork was finalised.You give a written application and any copied paperwork (if you have it which helps,i.e.copied deact cert)for the type of gun you wish to get to your firearms officer who processes it and forwards it to your local Superintendent,the Super then decides whether to grant you an Article 7 or not,this document is not a license and can be revoked at any time.Once you granted your Article 7 you have to then get an import license from the Justice department,this will require you to send the Article 7 away with the application,the application normally takes only a couple of weeks to come back.Once you have your import license then your free to import the weapon.You could also use a gun dealer to import the weapon for you.The Justice Department has then the right to do a ballistics test on the gun if they so wish but they don't always do this.It's also worth pointing out that by law anyone living here who wishes to buy a deact gun from someone in Ireland will still have to go to the Guards and get the appropriate paperwork and meet there requirements to store and keep the weapon.Pre 1995 deacts are more desirable than post 95 but will be more expensive.Lastly for each gun or guns that I imported took an average of twelve months from the start of the application for the Article 7 till I got the gun,the length of time seems to vary from station to station depending on how fast the guards process everything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    After reading that, please don't anybody EVER tell me again how ridiculous the gun laws are in UK.

    IF you are over 18 years old, here in UK and in everywhere else in Yoorup, you can rent a truck a FILL it with de-acts of all kinds until the tyres explode.

    That's the whole point behind a de-act - they are, effectively, a gun-shaped door-stop, and about as dangerous.

    As they appear to be treated in exactly the same way as a live firearm, I am not surprised that there are very few, if any, in the Republic of Ireland.

    tac


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,482 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    I know a few people with them and they just have a letter from the super stating their name, make model and serial number of the gun, first tme I've ever heard of anyone requiring a safe/home inspection etc. Either your super is a headcase or other supers are wrong... I've 2 live firearms and I didn't get a home inspection for my safe:pac: But I will add if this was what it has come to...if I'm honest I'm not terribly suprised.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭arnhem44


    These were the recommendations made to me at the time which unfortunately I had to follow to be able to get the deacts here,I don't know how it is for anyone else and I'm sure there's plenty of deacts here that have no paperwork and often change hands unbeknownst to anyone.It may just be the case that the Super is covering his own backside.When I first went to the station to enquire, the then firearms officer that I spoke to looked at me like some G I Joe and bluffed his way through things,basically they come across so few people wanting to buy these type of weapons that they don't know what the requirements or process are themselves.Even a Guard that I knew didn't know the law on them and she even asked in her station and came back to me none the wiser.It might be worth pointing out at the time I had told them that I was looking to import two rifles with the view of importing more,this may of been the reason for there recommendations.It is frustrating for sure though,when I was living in the U.K I had friends who had plenty deacts all just kept around the house and often thought at the time of buying some myself while I was there,however I held off knowing that I was coming home.It's even got to the stage now that many dealers in the U.K have stopped selling to the Republic.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    A simple persuance of the Garda guidelines and the firearms acts could have saved you a load of bother, and you FAO!
    They went overkill on you,and with all that security ,you might as well have some real firearms now!:).

    As laid down in the act,you go and get written permission from your superintendant to own and posses a DEact.Seems to be permanent,and for free.
    The actual trouble with this is simply,the Deact permission was brought in for people to have a keepsake of firearms that were used by fammily members either as hunting guns or in the troubles or emergency,and wrent able to liscense them, as they were then impossible to liscense[IE handguns or old Lee enfields etc in the 1980s].Or just dont want the bother of liscensing a live firearm.

    It was never designed for dealing with folks who want to collect awkward high tech clubs[because that is about all their offensive cpability ].
    So thats why you have some districts going dolally about these,and others scratching their heads,and others saying no bother if you already have a FAC,go ahead,and others saying go and get it ballistically tested that it is deacted in the ballistics section in Dublin.

    So as usual putting things on the long finger and then rushing to deal with it[Thanks to mr Ray Burke and Willie O Dea! ] We have another fine mess to deal with in the Irish shooting world..

    Thanks to "Mutt &Jeff's":rolleyes:efforts of the offensive weapons act 1992 we have now incomphensible law on silencers,night vision,deacts,restricted crossbows and blowpipes.Not to mind another silly law banning a particulary useful type of knife [flick knife] or a martial arts knife[bali song]
    The Irish solution to everything from prostitution to certain types of firearms...via....Oh!! put your own example in here!!!:rolleyes:.Ban it,and it will go away immediately!!!
    Do we ever learn here???:(

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Do we ever learn here???:(

    You mean 'never', of course......:(

    I kept a few of my handguns as de-acts here in UK, although I have many of them duplicated or legally shipped over to Oregon.

    Just as a matter of interest - they are -

    1. My first Luger - all-matching 1918 DWM.
    2. My last Luger - all-matching byf 1942.
    3. Ruger Redhawk .44Mag won in a Christmas raffle in Berlin R&G club in 1981.
    4. My first Model 29 Smith & Wesson .44mag - 6.5" bbl - nickel.
    5. My last Model 29 Smith & Wesson .44Mag - 4" bbl - blued.
    6. My 686 .357Mag Trophy comp revolver.
    7. My dad's [later mine] Walther PP in 9mmK, my occasional back-up carry-gun 'up there'.

    All the others either went over to Oregon, into the hands of private collectors via the police, into the local police armoury [four Glocks], or into the melting pot.

    tac


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