Provincial XV of Round 5

totallegend

I didn't see the Connacht game (no red button on UPC), so here are my picks from the other three games:

15: Terblanche - not happy he's here at all, but he was solid in defence and inventive in attack, provided a real foundation for Ulster's win
14: Gilroy - didn't see too much ball but looked lively when he got it, lovely footwork left Geordan Murphy on his arse at one stage...
13: Cave - Has to be given a shot in a green jersey
12: No contenders really - Wallace was quiet enough, D'Arcy should have thrived in a tight game but didn't and Mafi is beyond redemption.
11: Trimble - two lovely finishes and a great all-round performance
10: Sexton - got a knock early on but still controlled the game well
9: Pienaar - worth his weight in gold
8: Heaslip - his work in defence and at the breakdown is critical to Leinster
7: Henry - another industrious showing, must be closing in on an Ireland squad place
6: Ferris - not much else needs to be said
5: Tuohy - a massive physical presence, popped up everywhere
4: Ryan - excellent showing
3: Afoa - gets the nod ahead of Botha due to his phenomenal workrate in the loose as well as a great scrum performance
2: Cronin - a bright spot on a dull day for Leinster
1: Court - gets a lot of stick here but deserves credit for helping to nullify Leicester's scrum

So 10 Ulster players, I think that is fair given the quality of their showing and the flat, uninspiring showings from Munster and Leinster.

smurphy29

Looks fair enough, really. I might split hairs and argue that you've two 4's there and no 5, and that Toner had a particularly effective game for Leinster, so maybe include him at the expense of one of the other two lads. All three of the Next Generation Locks played really well, and all should be in Kidney's squad this week, with Micko and Cullen moving on.

padraig.od

smurphy29 wrote: »

Looks fair enough, really. I might split hairs and argue that you've two 4's there and no 5, and that Toner had a particularly effective game for Leinster, so maybe include him at the expense of one of the other two lads. All three of the Next Generation Locks played really well, and all should be in Kidney's squad this week, with Micko and Cullen moving on.

I thought Toner was pick of the Leinster front 5 alright. He's a much more effective carrier than I've given him credit for, he must be carrying some weight in that frame.

bamboozle

smurphy29 wrote: »

Looks fair enough, really. I might split hairs and argue that you've two 4's there and no 5, and that Toner had a particularly effective game for Leinster, so maybe include him at the expense of one of the other two lads. All three of the Next Generation Locks played really well, and all should be in Kidney's squad this week, with Micko and Cullen moving on.

and DOC, our national second rows should be 2 from POC, Ryan, Touhy, Toner, McCarthy.
No need for DOC anymore, time to bring through younger players.

Benny Cake

bamboozle wrote: »

and DOC, our national second rows should be 2 from POC, Ryan, Touhy, Toner, McCarthy.
No need for DOC anymore, time to bring through younger players.

McCarthys 30 by the way, if he's to be picked, let him be there on merit not because he's 18 months younger than DOC.

Tox56

11 of the 14 players there are Irish, which is no bad thing.

padraig.od

Benny Cake wrote: »

McCarthys 30 by the way, if he's to be picked, let him be there on merit not because he's 18 months younger than DOC.

Yep, was about to make the same point.

siltirocker

I think Tiernan O'Halloran playing Vincent Clerc off the pitch is worth remarkingon .

Thought McCarthy was sublime again.

Didn't see the Munster game. Ulster were phenomenal. Henry & Trimble in particular.

profitius

Can't disagree with that team, Totallegend.

I'd have Paddy Wallace at 12. I thought he has a solid game, made the right decisions and made no mistakes except one bad pass. He also pushed Tom Croft out of touch!

buck65

Peter O Mahony and Donncha Ryan were outstanding for us, O Connell has a default setting of being good in every game, didn't shine but still effective. Cawlan had a howler, unusually for him - Mr Consistent and all that.
The rest of the Munster lads were poor.
Didn't watch the Leinster game but Ulster were superb. Of all the provinces though they rely so much on imports. Good to see Connacht restore some pride but 14 losses in a row says it all.

padraig.od

buck65 wrote: »

Peter O Mahony and Donncha Ryan were outstanding for us, O Connell has a default setting of being good in every game, didn't shine but still effective. Cawlan had a howler, unusually for him - Mr Consistent and all that.
The rest of the Munster lads were poor.
Didn't watch the Leinster game but Ulster were superb. Of all the provinces though they rely so much on imports. Good to see Connacht restore some pride but 14 losses in a row says it all.

You would have been happy to see Horan & Archer start the weekend for Munster? Munster are just as reliant on their props as Ulster are on their imports.

padraig.od

siltirocker wrote: »

I think Tiernan O'Halloran playing Vincent Clerc off the pitch is worth remarkingon .

Thought McCarthy was sublime again.

Didn't see the Munster game. Ulster were phenomenal. Henry & Trimble in particular.

I didn't see Connacht - in what way did TOH play Clerc off the pitch?

porterbelly

1. Court
2. Cronin
3. Afoa
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy- Honourable mention to McCarthy
6. Ferris- Honourable mention to O'Mahony
7. Henry- Honourable mention to Ofisa who was magnificent
8. Heaslip
9. Pienaar
10. Sexton
11. O Halloran
12. Tonetti
13. Cave
14. Trimble
15. Hurley

siltirocker

padraig.od wrote: »

I didn't see Connacht - in what way did TOH play Clerc off the pitch?

Didn't give Clerc an inch, the second Clerc touched the ball he was tackled by TOH. (Did Clerc have possesion inside the 22 at all?) O'Halloran broke the gain line coming inside Clerc on 2/3 occassions. And he secured all garryowens he was in for.

bamboozle

Benny Cake wrote: »

McCarthys 30 by the way, if he's to be picked, let him be there on merit not because he's 18 months younger than DOC.

he deserves to be picked on merit over DOC.

ps, DOC is born in March '79, McCarthy Nov '81.

irishbucsfan

Very harsh on Wallace. Deserves to be in the team for that tackle on Croft alone. Though he was great all night.

buck65

padraig.od wrote: »

You would have been happy to see Horan & Archer start the weekend for Munster? Munster are just as reliant on their props as Ulster are on their imports.

We are indeed reliant on BJ Botha, du Preez is a decent player but ultimately replacable same with Mafi. Howlett has been massive for us. BUT Munster and Leinster tend to bring in foreign players to complement their own styles and adress areas where they are very weak.
Ulster are making the playoffs because of their South African and NZ imports. Let's not kid ourselves, if the IRFU inforce their dictat then Ulster have a bit of rebuilding to do.

irishbucsfan

buck65 wrote: »

padraig.od wrote: »

You would have been happy to see Horan & Archer start the weekend for Munster? Munster are just as reliant on their props as Ulster are on their imports.

We are indeed reliant on BJ Botha, du Preez is a decent player but ultimately replacable same with Mafi. Howlett has been massive for us. BUT Munster and Leinster tend to bring in foreign players to complement their own styles and adress areas where they are very weak.
Ulster are making the playoffs because of their South African and NZ imports. Let's not kid ourselves, if the IRFU inforce their dictat then Ulster have a bit of rebuilding to do.

Could equally say the same thing about any ulster players.

Ulsters IQ front row is far better than Munsters. Terblanche can be replaced by DArcy, Muller by Stevenson or Barker, Wannenberg by Diack.

Munster would be screwed without Botha.

irishbucsfan

Id have:

Court, Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Ryan, Ferris, Henry, Heaslip, Boss, O'Gara, Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Kearney, Terblanche

Wouldn't have Cronin or Sexton near the team. Cronin taking some blame for poor leinster scrum and OGara outperforming Sexton

bamboozle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Id have:

Court, Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Ryan, Ferris, Henry, Heaslip, Boss, O'Gara, Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Kearney, Terblanche

Wouldn't have Cronin or Sexton near the team. Cronin taking some blame for poor leinster scrum and OGara outperforming Sexton

any scrum with 6'10 Toner in it is going to struggle. I thought Cronin was excellent.

padraig.od

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Could equally say the same thing about any ulster players.

Ulsters IQ front row is far better than Munsters. Terblanche can be replaced by DArcy, Muller by Stevenson or Barker, Wannenberg by Diack.

Munster would be screwed without Botha.

D'Acry isn't at the level of Terblanche yet but he's coming along. Don't forget their project player Payne who would be their starting fullback if he weren't injured.

They'd really miss Muller, Pienaar and to a lesser extent Afoa, Wannenburg is replaceable (and will be at the end of the season). I'd say they are reliant on three of their imports, one more than Munster.

irishbucsfan

bamboozle wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Id have:

Court, Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Ryan, Ferris, Henry, Heaslip, Boss, O'Gara, Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Kearney, Terblanche

Wouldn't have Cronin or Sexton near the team. Cronin taking some blame for poor leinster scrum and OGara outperforming Sexton

any scrum with 6'10 Toner in it is going to struggle. I thought Cronin was excellent.

Leinster have dominated scrums with Toner on the field, they haven't with Cronin on. Height in the row isn't a problem that's too difficult to overcome.

Cronins scrunmaging has been a problem his whole career, even at AIL level. Watch it again and you'll see that MacArthur was giving him an awful time, he couldn't hold his shape. MacArthur is very good though.

He was great apart from that though, whereas Best was great including his scrummaging, therefore I'd have him. A Hookers job is to scrummmage and throw primarilly,

buck65

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Could equally say the same thing about any ulster players.

Ulsters IQ front row is far better than Munsters. Terblanche can be replaced by DArcy, Muller by Stevenson or Barker, Wannenberg by Diack.

Munster would be screwed without Botha.

The signing of Terblanche was an insult to the younger Ulster players and a sign the management don't trust them at HCup level.
Take Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg, Pienaar out of that side I would pick Munster any day to beat them without Botha and duPreez in a Heineken Cup game.
It's no secret that Ulster want to emulate their Southern neighbours success in the HCup so they opened the checkbook to do it.
FFS Leinster couldn't even keep Nathan Hines in case it held back Toner (good move) and Terblanche comes to Ulster? Can't understand it personally.

P.S I've nothing against Ulster rugby and after Munster would hope they win the Cup, I'm sure I'd be delighted if we could do the same thing but we're resigned to having no backrow cover, no midfield. Sure we got a tighthead that could do his job ,suppose we should be happy!

buck65

buck65 wrote: »

The signing of Terblanche was an insult to the younger Ulster players and a sign the management don't trust them at HCup level.
Take Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg, Pienaar out of that side I would pick Munster any day to beat them without Botha and duPreez in a Heineken Cup game.
It's no secret that Ulster want to emulate their Southern neighbours success in the HCup so they opened the checkbook to do it.
FFS Leinster couldn't even keep Nathan Hines in case it held back Toner (good move) and Terblanche comes to Ulster? Can't understand it personally.

P.S I've nothing against Ulster rugby and after Munster would hope they win the Cup, I'm sure I'd be delighted if we could do the same thing but we're resigned to having no backrow cover, no midfield. Sure we got a tighthead that could do his job ,suppose we should be happy!

Ulster IQ
McAllister, Best, Court
Tuohy, Barker,
Ferris, Henry, Faloon
Marshall, Humphries
Gilroy, Wallace, Cave, Trimble
D'Arcy

Munster IQ
Horan, Varley, Archer
POC, Ryan
Leamy, Coughlan, POM
Murray, ROG
Zebo, Earls, Barnes, Murphy
Hurley

(I've left out the unavailable players obviously)
There's only one team winning that game imo. Ulster's pack eats Munster's alive and look at the difference in the backline! If Munster managed to play 10 man rugby they might steal it, but Ulster wouldn't let them play it, they're used to preventing that gameplan from working.

jacothelad

bamboozle wrote: »

and DOC, our national second rows should be 2 from POC, Ryan, Touhy, Toner, McCarthy.
No need for DOC anymore, time to bring through younger players.

Was O'Callaghan not given an extended central contract recently? If so, he'll be in the 22.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Id have:

Court, Best, Afoa, Tuohy, Ryan, Ferris, Henry, Heaslip, Boss, O'Gara, Trimble, Wallace, Cave, Kearney, Terblanche

Wouldn't have Cronin or Sexton near the team. Cronin taking some blame for poor leinster scrum and OGara outperforming Sexton

Aside from the scrummaging issue, Cronin played very well and Sexton played with an injury. Glasgow are a team with little by way of creativity but are very adept at smothering opponents attacking play. Ulster played there back in November with a strongish side, had 75% possession and territory and lost.

leonard7

My provincial xv with only irish qualified players on the basis of the weekends performance would be as follows.

Court
Cronin
...
Touhy
Ryan
Ferris
Henry
Heaslip
Boss
Sexton
Wallace
Cave
Trimble
Bowe
Hurley

To me the positions that didnt really stand out this weekend were tighthead prop, scrum half (marshall and boss looked good but only had 20 mins) and 15 again d'arcy only had 20 ish and Kearney dropped a few

leonard7

meant to say 10 wasnt too good either humphreys and sexton both werent kicking...i think i might have to review letting sexton in

[Jackass]

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wouldn't have Cronin or Sexton near the team. Cronin taking some blame for poor leinster scrum and OGara outperforming Sexton

:eek:

Wow, don't know, I think the above is a bit harsh on Sexton... He was absolutely superb before he took a heavy knock (twice in the game, turning on his ankle in the first half, and then the same ankle again in the second half when going in to contact with Heaslip). Taking a great step followed by 50 yard dash and kick through. He varied the game superbly and was the driving force behind Leinster, even carrying a knock. Certainly nothing to do with him how poor Leinster were.

Most of the teams here are fair enough and similar enough, but didn't think O'Gara was great at all, and in contrast I think Sexton is looking more and more a top quality international 10 with every game.

Fireball07

[Jackass] wrote: »

:eek:

Wow, don't know, I think the above is a bit harsh on Sexton... He was absolutely superb before he took a heavy knock (twice in the game, turning on his ankle in the first half, and then the same ankle again in the second half when going in to contact with Heaslip). Taking a great step followed by 50 yard dash and kick through. He varied the game superbly and was the driving force behind Leinster, even carrying a knock. Certainly nothing to do with him how poor Leinster were.

Most of the teams here are fair enough and similar enough, but didn't think O'Gara was great at all, and in contrast I think Sexton is looking more and more a top quality international 10 with every game.

That may be true but it was early enough that he picked up the injury and he did fade. It's not saying he was bad but he didn't have a huge influence on most of the game.

And I thought ROG had one of his best games of the HC tbh. No last minute drop goals but his all-round game was pretty good. It's not sacrilege saying that he deserved to be in the team of the weekend because an injured Sexton wasn't at the top of his game.

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

And I thought ROG had one of his best games of the HC tbh. No last minute drop goals but his all-round game was pretty good. It's not sacrilege saying that he deserved to be in the team of the weekend because an injured Sexton wasn't at the top of his game.

OK. Let's discuss O'Gara's performance against Castres WITHOUT reference to Sexton.

I thought he executed what he tried quite well but he just didn't try enough variation. Far too much kicking for territory and while it gets a great response from the crowd, it's just not going to give Munster any sort of a creative platform.

This is Castres we're talking about and at no stage were the Munster backs any sort of a threat. They should have ripped Castres apart. Nine tries in five wins tells its own story and the incessant kicking for field position is too predictable so while it's easy enough for the forwards to rumble over the likes of Castres and the Scarlets, it's only going to take them so far.

I think in any rational analysis of a team other than Munster which so consistently fails to provide an attacking edge, questions would have to be asked about the out-half but O'Gara seems to be a sacred cow while we all pile into Mafi, Earls, Murphy etc.

I posted this on another thread but I'd love to see O'Gara take the ball flatter and inject a bit of pace into the attack from first receiver. I know the response to that will be that he'll get creamed in the tackle, but he doesn't even have to take the ball into contact, just fix the tackler, tey to create a bit of space for his centre and then move the ball on. With Mafi and Earls in the centre, there is a pronounced absence of a midfield playmaker so I think O'Gara has to try to fill that role a bit more, stop lying so deep and try to get into his team into a position where the pace and footwork of Mafi and Earls can be properly exploited.

He failed to do that on Saturday so I don't think he had a particularly good game.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

OK. Let's discuss O'Gara's performance against Castres WITHOUT reference to Sexton.

I thought he executed what he tried quite well but he just didn't try enough variation. Far too much kicking for territory and while it gets a great response from the crowd, it's just not going to give Munster any sort of a creative platform.

This is Castres we're talking about and at no stage were the Munster backs any sort of a threat. They should have ripped Castres apart. Nine tries in five wins tells its own story and the incessant kicking for field position is too predictable so while it's easy enough for the forwards to rumble over the likes of Castres and the Scarlets, it's only going to take them so far.

I think in any rational analysis of a team other than Munster which so consistently fails to provide an attacking edge, questions would have to be asked about the out-half but O'Gara seems to be a sacred cow while we all pile into Mafi, Earls, Murphy etc.

I posted this on another thread but I'd love to see O'Gara take the ball flatter and inject a bit of pace into the attack from first receiver. I know the response to that will be that he'll get creamed in the tackle, but he doesn't even have to take the ball into contact, just fix the tackler, tey to create a bit of space for his centre and then move the ball on. With Mafi and Earls in the centre, there is a pronounced absence of a midfield playmaker so I think O'Gara has to try to fill that role a bit more, stop lying so deep and try to get into his team into a position where the pace and footwork of Mafi and Earls can be properly exploited.

He failed to do that on Saturday so I don't think he had a particularly good game.

But has ROG ever done that?? I mean he's 34, he's not going to start changing his game at this stage.

ROG has been decent without being exceptional in this tournament, his best performance coming against Llanelli. Maybe he should come a bit flatter but even still I thought at the weekend, there were a few times he did give Mafi and Earls some nice passes for them to run on to and they didn't really do much anyway. It's something he should probably do more often to get our backs going, but I still thought it was one of his better all-round performances of the HC this season.

irishbucsfan

Sexton was not superb before his knock!!!

That's madness. He was superb for the first two minutes, then he was very dodgy for the rest of the game. One clearance from our 22 in particular was atrocious and that was before his knock. After the knock it was clear he was struggling taking the ball forward which didn't help.


Anyway, I'm picking the team based on performance. The fact he took the knock was the reason he performed poorly. I'm not going to ignore that and pick him based on what he might have done if he was healthy. ROG had probably his first good all round performance of the competition, so he beats Sexton who was poor because he took a knock. It's simple enough, and doesn't mean the world is going to end.