My rights ?

flynnboy

Hi

I have just found myself in the position of having to apply for 'job seekers allowance' after having just finished the 'back to work enterprise allowance scheme'. That is to say that an idea I have pursued for self-employment for the last 2 years has come to nothing and I now have to apply for 'job seekers allowance' as I have no more work.

When I had my interview they asked me to show them my bank statements, they did not say from when to when but I willingly gave them my statements from the last 3 months. After that I had a phone-call telling me that I now have to go and see them next Friday and produce my books for 2010 and everything I have for 2011....... !

Let me say that I have absolutely nothing to hide and I have no problem in them investigating my books EXCEPT that I cannot understand why on earth they want to investigate my books as there is no problem with my bank statements ! Since there is no problem with my bank statements I cannot understand why they want to do this, and because of that I kind of feel that unless they can give me a bloody good reason for wanting to see my books for 2010/11 then this is nothing less than 'intimidation' ?

My question is this: Can I insist that they give me a creditable reason for wanting to investigate my books before I let them see them ? This is simply a matter if principle. Since I have not given them any reasons for suspecting I am 'dodgy' then why have they decided to demand I give them my books? Should I go there next Friday and demand they give me a good reason for demanding my books or should I just meekly hand them over when they have no reasons to suspect me at all ?

I really do not like this and the fact that they seem to be 'pointing the finger' at me for no reason whatsoever that I can see. It just seems like intimidation so that I might withdraw my claim.

Thanks for any input

drunkmonkey

Were you Self Employed (did you make a penny?) or did you just think about it for 2 years?

snubbleste

It's a means test. It needs to be established that you have no other income or had a higher income than you've declared.
Why not send the SWO a letter asking why they want to see your books?

flynnboy

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Were you Self Employed (did you make a penny?) or did you just think about it for 2 years?

I was on the 'back to work enterprise allowance scheme'. I did make money and when I was interviewed I told them exactly how much and how much I had in the bank - my statements verified what I told them. My orders and enquirers unfortunately disappeared gradually during my second year to the point that when the scheme ended after 2 yrs I had to admit defeat. I could not go on with the business as I have been receiving zero inquiries and had my last order last December. I blame the recession on the disappearing orders.

So, my reward for having tried a business for 2 yrs is being made to feel guilty and told I have to produce my books as if I am trying to hide the amazing profits I've made over the last 2 yrs....... why were my bank statements not enough ?

micropig

i know a few people who have been in the same situation as yourself and were asked to produce accounts for a year. it seems to be common enough so don't take it personally. i'm not sure of the reason why sw wanted to see the accounts but i suppose its to prove how much a self employed person earned over the year?

i had to produce my self employed partners accounts when i applied - and had to wait 9months (i kid you not) for a decision on same claim.

ted1

Common practice. Don't see what the issue is. How do they know your not dodhy, an innocent man has nothing to hide. You want money from them, there entitled to see your books.

Balagan

Asking to see your accounts is absolutely par for the course. Can understand that you feel that since the SW already has this info because of you having been on the Back to Work Enterprise Allowance Scheme it is a pity that they didn't retain the info but it seems likely that means testing for JA may have to be taken from scratch and I would think there is no inference intended that SW feels you might be hiding anything at all.


Self-employed and unemployment
When you apply for Jobseeker’s Allowance (JA)
Usually, you will be asked for your receipts and payments or audited accounts for the current and previous year. For example, if you apply for Jobseeker's Allowance in April 2011 you will be asked for your receipts and payments from January to April 2011 and for 2010. However, in certain cases you may be required to show audited accounts for the last two or more yearshttp://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/self_employed_and_unemployment.html

CiaranMT

Of course they're going to want to check your books.

It'd be the height of naivety not to.

No doubt you're being honest in what you say, but everyone would get the same check, as there are plenty of people who might try to scam the system.

Don't take it as a slight.

flynnboy

I just thought that since they have seen my bank statements and see how much money have (very little) then what mnore can they want to see ? Even if I'd earned a milllion in 2010 the point surely is I have less than 2,000 in the bank and no work - so why the hell do they want to investigate my books ?

I have absolutely nothing to hide, I just feel that given my circumstances and little money I have it feels a little like harassment rather than anything else. I just don't understand the necessity to look at my books. As I said it feels like they are suspecting me needlessly.

CiaranMT

flynnboy wrote: »

I just thought that since they have seen my bank statements and see how much money have (very little) then what mnore can they want to see ? Even if I'd earned a milllion in 2010 the point surely is I have less than 2,000 in the bank and no work - so why the hell do they want to investigate my books ?

I have absolutely nothing to hide, I just feel that given my circumstances and little money I have it feels a little like harassment rather than anything else. I just don't understand the necessity to look at my books. As I said it feels like they are suspecting me needlessly.

They're just being thorough. No doubt at this time there are thousands more like you, applying for welfare, all going through the same procedure.

Like you said, you've nothing to hide, so you've nothing to fear.

yabadabado

its common practice for every DSP scheme if the applicant is self-employed ,they will inspect the accounts.Company accounts and bank statements are always asked for.
If you don't give them access to the accounts you wont be receiving a jobseekers payment.

mathepac

flynnboy wrote: »

... I willingly gave them my statements from the last 3 months. After that I had a phone-call telling me that I now have to go and see them next Friday and produce my books for 2010 and everything I have for 2011....... !

Let me say that I have absolutely nothing to hide and I have no problem in them investigating my books EXCEPT that I cannot understand why on earth they want to investigate my books as there is no problem with my bank statements ! ...

flynnboy wrote: »

I just thought that since they have seen my bank statements and see how much money have (very little) then what mnore can they want to see ? Even if I'd earned a milllion in 2010 the point surely is I have less than 2,000 in the bank and no work - so why the hell do they want to investigate my books ?

I have absolutely nothing to hide, I just feel that given my circumstances and little money I have it feels a little like harassment rather than anything else. I just don't understand the necessity to look at my books. As I said it feels like they are suspecting me needlessly.

You keep repeating you have nothing to hide but they have only seen 3 months bank statements and you sound aggrieved. Why? If there is nothing to hide and they are simply asking you to show them, as is their right and their duty.

If you create a fuss, and I cannot for the life of me see why you should, you may wind up with nothing after a lot of totally unnecessary hassle with a bunch of people who are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities in difficult circumstances. And no, I'm not one of them. , I'd be more like one of you.

micropig

dealing with the social welfare can be a long and frustrating process at the best of times. your claim will be delayed if you do not submit requested documents and your head even more wrecked.

flynnboy

mathepac wrote: »

You keep repeating you have nothing to hide but they have only seen 3 months bank statements and you sound aggrieved. Why? If there is nothing to hide and they are simply asking you to show them, as is their right and their duty.

If you create a fuss, and I cannot for the life of me see why you should, you may wind up with nothing after a lot of totally unnecessary hassle with a bunch of people who are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities in difficult circumstances. And no, I'm not one of them. , I'd be more like one of you.

Because I quite simply do not like feeling that the finger is being pointed at me needlessly and perhaps only because I find myself in a difficult position. People should not be persecuted simply because they are in a difficult position and vulnerable. I know they are 'only doing their job' - so were the Nazis. That is not a justification for saying "they were only following orders...." The point is they have seen how much money I don't have and the fact that I have no work so what is the point of the pointless exercise of looking at my books only to confirm what I have already confirmed to them with my bank statements if not to just harass me so I will stop my claim ?

yabadabado

flynnboy wrote: »

Because I quite simply do not like feeling that the finger is being pointed at me needlessly and perhaps only because I find myself in a difficult position. People should not be persecuted simply because they are in a difficult position and vulnerable. I know they are 'only doing their job' - so were the Nazis. That is not a justification for saying "they were only following orders...." The point is they have seen how much money I don't have and the fact that I have no work so what is the point of the pointless exercise of looking at my books only to confirm what I have already confirmed to them with my bank statements if not to just harass me so I will stop my claim ?

You are going way overboard there unless you do have something to hide.You have shown them 3 months worth of bank statements and they are asking for company accounts ,which every other self employed person has to give them,which they need to work out your entitlement.Dont see the problem,its not harassment and its not a way of getting you to stop your claim.

CiaranMT

Jeez.. You're really worked up about this huh?

Despite every other poster saying that it's standard procedure and that you've nothing to worry about... Chill.

cee_jay

From the guidelines on means testing:

Self Employment - Claimant
All Schemes

All expenses directly related to the self employment. In self employment cases the income is taken to be the gross profit less allowable work related expenses, but not drawings. Where the person has taken "drawings" from the business which are greater than the level of income thus calculated, the drawings are assessed as cash income.
There is no exhaustive list of all expenses allowed in self employed cases, since expenses vary with the nature and extent of the self employment. However the following are the main allowable expenses in most instances:
Materials (supplies costs)
Motor running costs (portion applicable to business)
Depreciation of machinery or equipment
Insurance relating to the business
Telephone (portion applicable to business)
Lighting and Heating (for business and not domestic use)
Advertising
Bank Charges
Stationery
Van Leasing
Labour Costs
Pension plan
and any other costs associated with running the business.
Household running costs are not allowed as deductions against business profit.
Class S PRSI contributions (where paid or payable) (Note if payable but not being paid, a separate report should be made by the Social Welfare Investigator on this aspect.)

Your bank statement for 3 months does not show the above. You were self employed. You now wish to claim a jobseeker's payment. Your means now need to be assessed. So your accounts are required. You don't supply what has been requested, you won't get paid. Its your choice.

cee_jay

flynnboy infracted for comparing civil servants of the Dept to Nazis. This is not a forum for criticising the staff of govt. departments.

drunkmonkey

I completely understand why he's stressing, it's a scary thing to happen anyone that's self employed and most stories you hear are about people coming out the wrong side of them and ending up on a payment plan.

Personally OP i'd rather take any job than subject myself to that. If your ducks are in a row that all your vat & taxes etc are correct you've nothing to worry about.

Hypothetically, if flynn had spent all the vat, not paid tax but he now genuinely has only 2k, will the social welfare still pay him even though he has an outstanding balance with the collector general?
Could the state possibly come after his assets as revealed when the accounts are audited?
Is there a possibility of Jail if he was self employed rather than a ltd company director?

mathepac

drunkmonkey wrote: »

... Hypothetically, if flynn had spent all the vat, not paid tax but he now genuinely has only 2k, will the social welfare still pay him even though he has an outstanding balance with the collector general?
Could the state possibly come after his assets as revealed when the accounts are audited?
Is there a possibility of Jail if he was self employed rather than a ltd company director?

Why introduce this off-topic nonsense and present it in a thread where the OP already sounds as if he's under extreme pressure? He's already been given an infraction and can't seem to take in the suggestions made; why add to his obvious worry and frustration?

If that stuff worries you, might I suggest you start a thread of your own on it?

drunkmonkey

He's basically getting audited, it doesn't concern me as my own house is in order and i'm all paid up to date but as with any business it could go bang at any minute and the general could be left shy a few bob.
There serious questions and relevant, maybe not all in relation to op but are to anyone self employed that's stumbled and worried.

ted1

they may have your accounts for the past 3 months, but what about the 2 million in cash profits the company made thats under your pillow???

mp22

ted1 this is not after hours, please read the forum charter before any further posting.

ted1

sorry MP2,

could you direct me to what part of the charter you are referring too.

I was simply highlighting the fact that the welfare office have to do a through check.
and that a person who was self emloyed could well have taken a cash profit from the company.

drunkmonkey

ted1 wrote: »

they may have your accounts for the past 3 months, but what about the 2 million in cash profits the company made thats under your pillow???

That's what I was trying to get to, If OP did use the business money on himself and does have outstanding revenue debt because of this will he still get social welfare or will he face Prosecution. I'd assume as a sole trade he would but if he was a limited company director he wouldn't.

Interesting to know the stance of social welfare / revenue in such cases. OP went over the top calling them Nazis, but there is a bit of them an us when it comes to the self employed. The could be a lot more helpful to people starting off to make sure there on the right track with them. I thankfully am on the right side of them but I can easily see how quickly things could get out of hand if you weren't.

newuser30

OP you know what SW are like, it's not personal. So if you don't want to hold up the system any more than it already is then present the books. Unless you haven't kept up with your accounts/bookkeeping. And I'd say a lot on this scheme haven't been doing them. But it should be easy if you've kept your receipts etc etc. Im on the BTWEA too and it runs out this year, if I cant survive on the business, I'l definitely be getting any old job rather than going through all that, just to be back on the dole!

saa

You might have nothing to hide but it also sounds like you haven't got with the programme in the last few years they are checking up on and investigating people without any real reason don't worry they don't have dirt on you, I hope!

yabadabado

saa wrote: »

You might have nothing to hide but it also sounds like you haven't got with the programme in the last few years they are checking up on and investigating people without any real reason don't worry they don't have dirt on you, I hope!

What are you on about

checking up on and investigating people without any real reason

He applied for assistance and they have to decide if he is entitled to a payment and at what rate.this has always been the case,nothing new and they aren't trying to screw the OP over.

cee_jay

saa wrote: »

You might have nothing to hide but it also sounds like you haven't got with the programme in the last few years they are checking up on and investigating people without any real reason don't worry they don't have dirt on you, I hope!

When someone applies for BTWEA they must submit a business plan to the Department, and receive assistance for 2 years. The business being set up must be seen to be a viable business in order to receive BTWEA.
Those in receipt of BTWEA do not have to submit anything to the department while they are in receipt of the payment to show how their business is doing. After the first year, all they do is sign a form to say they are still self employed, and their payment reduces to 75%.
In the OPs case, his BTWEA has just ceased - and now his business is making no money. This is a business that was seen to be a viable one just 2 years ago. Yes, I know we are in a recession, but the person in the Dept investigating his claim for Jobseeker's Allowance has to look into his business affairs to see if he is now earning any money from his self employment.
It is a means tested payment - they can't just give him the full rate of payment because he says the business isn't working. So the accounts for his business are required to evaluate this, and the list I posted above will be looked at.

boodee

Unfortunately, for there are those out there who have conned the system making it harder on anyone who is honest and has paid their dues.

Being self employed at anytime is trickier with taxes etc, as it's up to you to keep it all in check.

You have to just put up with what they want as if you don't have a simple p45/p60 to hand over when dealing with SW claims it is harder...there's no getting away from it.

I had to finish work due to ill health, I'm trying to get a medical card, just for myself. As my husband is self employed I had to hand in all 2010s accounts, an accountants letter, copies of all outstanding debt, health expenses, living expenses...EVERYTHING...as it is means tested.

I sent in a file that cost €5.70 to post, they just need to see it all. It;s nothing personal.