Buying back into dairy

cowmilk

Thinking of buying into dairy. Father sold all dairy cows recently. Farm currently used for beef sucklers. I see current prices as an over inflated bubble. No one knows exactly when it will pop but I would prefer to buy cheap. What are my options for buying in? eg all at once, phased, delayed etc?

centre 13

Good call given the relative pricing in both sectors.. dairy stock undervalued at present poss because of Quota..sucklers like houses and we all know where that ended. x breds are real good value until the slow learners cop to their true potential.

6480

centre 13 wrote: »

Good call given the relative pricing in both sectors.. dairy stock undervalued at present poss because of Quota..sucklers like houses and we all know where that ended. x breds are real good value until the slow learners cop to their true potential.

good milking cows are still making good money priced a few cows that were for sale 1650 euro going to calve in next 3 weeks

cowmilk

centre 13 wrote: »

Good call given the relative pricing in both sectors.. dairy stock undervalued at present poss because of Quota..sucklers like houses and we all know where that ended. x breds are real good value until the slow learners cop to their true potential.

Can you elaborate further please?

5live

cowmilk wrote: »

Can you elaborate further please?

I think he means the majority of dairy cattle sales and demand is for Friesian cattle. Despite Jersey and Norwegian Red cross animals (and others) leaving as much profit and in some cases a lot more, dairy farmers are reluctant to have anything other than 'normal' dairy cattlein their herd. A bit like when Friesians first came into the country, a lot of dairy farmers were very reluctant to change from the shorthorn. But eventually they did;)

If you look purely at the returns and the current research evidence, there would be Jex herds across the country because the figures back it up. But still the dairy herd is mostly Friesian, changing slowly but surely:)

F.D

cowmilk wrote: »

Thinking of buying into dairy. Father sold all dairy cows recently. Farm currently used for beef sucklers. I see current prices as an over inflated bubble. No one knows exactly when it will pop but I would prefer to buy cheap. What are my options for buying in? eg all at once, phased, delayed etc?

If you have quota and milking facilitys why not sell all suckler stock and buy dairy stock? with the values been high in both it wont be that much of a problem, if you had no stock to sell to buy the cows its how much will the bank lend you to get started, and if thats not much maybe phased is the only option running the sucklers and dairy together until the dairy gets up and running
on the other comment ref cross breeding maybe theres a reason people are sticking with the fresian, to have a back up plan if milk price hits the bottom again, better have a bull calf to sell worth 100 or so than a jersey screw worth 20 if your lucky

cowmilk

What prices should I expect for Frisian heifer calves these days? Any advice on buying in calves with a view to milking in 2 years?

freedominacup

5live wrote: »

I think he means the majority of dairy cattle sales and demand is for Friesian cattle. Despite Jersey and Norwegian Red cross animals (and others) leaving as much profit and in some cases a lot more, dairy farmers are reluctant to have anything other than 'normal' dairy cattlein their herd. A bit like when Friesians first came into the country, a lot of dairy farmers were very reluctant to change from the shorthorn. But eventually they did;)

If you look purely at the returns and the current research evidence, there would be Jex herds across the country because the figures back it up. But still the dairy herd is mostly Friesian, changing slowly but surely:)

I was at a farm walk on Fri. Guy expanding from 80 to180 cows from '07 to '15. He's at 140 now. Herd is 25% Jex. Friesians outperformed Jex by €18/cow in 2012. Jex had €50 greater milk value but this was offset by lower cull and calf sales of €70/cow. Teagasc guys only mentioned it as a footnote and they would rather have eaten ground glass than to mention it at all:D:D.

Sam Kade

cowmilk wrote: »

What prices should I expect for Frisian heifer calves these days? Any advice on buying in calves with a view to milking in 2 years?

They were making 250 last spring average. You should be looking at what they will cost you by the time they calve down.

pms7

freedominacup wrote: »

I was at a farm walk on Fri. Guy expanding from 80 to180 cows from '07 to '15. He's at 140 now. Herd is 25% Jex. Friesians outperformed Jex by €18/cow in 2012. Jex had €50 greater milk value but this was offset by lower cull and calf sales of €70/cow. Teagasc guys only mentioned it as a footnote and they would rather have eaten ground glass than to mention it at all:D:D.

What about fertility?

pms7

cowmilk wrote: »

Thinking of buying into dairy. Father sold all dairy cows recently. Farm currently used for beef sucklers. I see current prices as an over inflated bubble. No one knows exactly when it will pop but I would prefer to buy cheap. What are my options for buying in? eg all at once, phased, delayed etc?

Buy crossbreds from one herd if possible is my advice. Most guys who expanded by buying in more cows had health issues.

delaval

F.D wrote: »

If you have quota and milking facilitys why not sell all suckler stock and buy dairy stock? with the values been high in both it wont be that much of a problem, if you had no stock to sell to buy the cows its how much will the bank lend you to get started, and if thats not much maybe phased is the only option running the sucklers and dairy together until the dairy gets up and running
on the other comment ref cross breeding maybe theres a reason people are sticking with the fresian, to have a back up plan if milk price hits the bottom again, better have a bull calf to sell worth 100 or so than a jersey screw worth 20 if your lucky

FFS calves are a byproduct. If in dairy concentrate on it nd get rid of all time and money wasting enterprises on farms

delaval

freedominacup wrote: »

I was at a farm walk on Fri. Guy expanding from 80 to180 cows from '07 to '15. He's at 140 now. Herd is 25% Jex. Friesians outperformed Jex by €18/cow in 2012. Jex had €50 greater milk value but this was offset by lower cull and calf sales of €70/cow. Teagasc guys only mentioned it as a footnote and they would rather have eaten ground glass than to mention it at all:D:D.

I'll bet th xbreds were the younger animals who haven't reched maturity yet. Go back in 5 more years and his herd will be all cross bred, they're like weeds they'll take over, breed like rabbits.

When he has 180 the xbreds can handle the bigger competition more easily

Was that down your own country? Unusual to ee too many xbreds down there compared to this area. Again they don't suit every situation.

Muckit

freedominacup wrote: »

I was at a farm walk on Fri. Guy expanding from 80 to180 cows from '07 to '15. He's at 140 now. Herd is 25% Jex. Friesians outperformed Jex by €18/cow in 2012. Jex had €50 greater milk value but this was offset by lower cull and calf sales of €70/cow. Teagasc guys only mentioned it as a footnote and they would rather have eaten ground glass than to mention it at all:D:D.

Not in diary but I'd agree the whole picture needs to be taken into account. A dairy farmer is primarily interested in producing as much milk as possible but you are handicapping your profits sstraight off by not factoring in calf and cull cow sales. There is a dairy farmer with fresains near here fattening 15 cows at present On his outfarm. Getting good grass and parlour nuts. Regardless of grade they will kill out some weight And come Iinto €. They produced a calf and milked majority of the year. Is +€20, 000 to be sniffed at?

delaval

Muckit wrote: »

Not in diary but I'd agree the whole picture needs to be taken into account. A dairy farmer is primarily interested in producing as much milk as possible but you are handicapping your profits sstraight off by not factoring in calf and cull cow sales. There is a dairy farmer with fresains near here fattening 15 cows at present On his outfarm. Getting good grass and parlour nuts. Regardless of grade they will kill out some weight And come Iinto €. They produced a calf and milked majority of the year. Is +€20, 000 to be sniffed at?

If he has half a brain he won't be doing it after 15 even from the phos level he is bringing in the meal to feed to a cow he is finished with. This could be spred as fert or fed to his heifers

I love the way lads talk about the 'bundle of money' and forget the cost

freedominacup

delaval wrote: »

I'll bet th xbreds were the younger animals who haven't reched maturity yet. Go back in 5 more years and his herd will be all cross bred, they're like weeds they'll take over, breed like rabbits.

When he has 180 the xbreds can handle the bigger competition more easily

Was that down your own country? Unusual to ee too many xbreds down there compared to this area. Again they don't suit every situation.

Not fair to say x-breds were younger animals. Head to head on a lactation basis the x-breds were performing better at a younger age on milk but in the round they weren't. They have them at all ages. Father is mad for x-breds, son is angling more towards the B&W's.

delaval

freedominacup wrote: »

Not fair to say x-breds were younger animals. Head to head on a lactation basis the x-breds were performing better at a younger age on milk but in the round they weren't. They have them at all ages. Father is mad for x-breds, son is angling more towards the B&W's.

West Waterford? Dovea background?

freedominacup

pms7 wrote: »

What about fertility?

His median calving date is 27 days for cows 20 days overall. 6 week pregnancy rate for milkerts is 84%. What about fertility?

delaval

freedominacup wrote: »

His median calving date is 27 days for cows 20 days overall. 6 week pregnancy rate for milkerts is 84%. What about fertility?

Some xbreeders trot out fertility as the reason they are xbreeding. It's a sham in my view. A lot do it to follow a trend. I know many BW herds hol and bf that can beat badly managed xbreds on any given day. The manager is more important than the cow

freedominacup

delaval wrote: »

West Waterford? Dovea background?

No E. Waterford. He's wide open. Fairly in depth breakdown of financials given. He has at least one Teagasc guy virtually living with him. They hold a walk every year at this time. It's interesting to see the development take shape.

delaval

freedominacup wrote: »

No E. Waterford. He's wide open. Fairly in depth breakdown of financials given. He has at least one Teagasc guy virtually living with him. They hold a walk every year at this time. It's interesting to see the development take shape.

Didn't think ye'd leave ye're little enclave only to go to the ploughing or Croake Park:D:D

mahoney_j

delaval wrote: »

FFS calves are a byproduct. If in dairy concentrate on it nd get rid of all time and money wasting enterprises on farms

Maby in your case delaval,in my herd and the likes of timmays and stans your bull calf and cull can leave u q
Unite a good margin.ive regurally had culls come into 1 to 1.5 k after drying off in early December and 3 kg of rolled barley for a month .ive been doing this since I started and sell in first mart of new year. Had the benefit of maxing out my stock relief and reducing tax bill.ive also kept my highest ebi bulls and sold them or breeding .i will be scalding this back and only keep the
10 best ebi/genetic potential bulls as I expand my milking herd post 2015

delaval

mahoney_j wrote: »

Maby in your case delaval,in my herd and the likes of timmays and stans your bull calf and cull can leave u q
Unite a good margin.ive regurally had culls come into 1 to 1.5 k after drying off in early December and 3 kg of rolled barley for a month .ive been doing this since I started and sell in first mart of new year. Had the benefit of maxing out my stock relief and reducing tax bill.ive also kept my highest ebi bulls and sold them or breeding .i will be scalding this back and only keep the
10 best ebi/genetic potential bulls as I expand my milking herd post 2015

I'm maxed out at the moment and coming from that point of view
SOME of my herd is xbred I have one complete herd of b/w and won't keep a bull calf or a cull, and I am also aware of the finished price.
My whole farm sr is 3.2/ha including all outside heifer blocks so I don't have room for them and even if I did I'd rent less land. Fattening culls and rearing bull calves on rented land is less than marginal I'm sure you'd agree?

jersey101

All my bull calves are going this year if i can get my father to agree. I have the last of my cows calving to AA any heifers i have out of these i am going to keep them and sell them with calves a foot for money for myself

delaval

jersey101 wrote: »

All my bull calves are going this year if i can get my father to agree. I have the last of my cows calving to AA any heifers i have out of these i am going to keep them and sell them with calves a foot for money for myself

Buy 100k litres in each exchange and milk a few more cows, I'm sure you're under 35. If not you're a perv chasing freshers or were they mature students?

jersey101

delaval wrote: »

Buy 100k litres in each exchange and milk a few more cows, I'm sure you're under 35. If not you're a perv chasing freshers or were they mature students?

ha im waaayy under 35 im only finished college meself. What to you mean buy 100k litres? Quota? Im expanding from 15 on and i have the land on the outfarm to carry the animals

Mulumpy

mahoney_j wrote: »

Maby in your case delaval,in my herd and the likes of timmays and stans your bull calf and cull can leave u q
Unite a good margin.ive regurally had culls come into 1 to 1.5 k after drying off in early December and 3 kg of rolled barley for a month .ive been doing this since I started and sell in first mart of new year. Had the benefit of maxing out my stock relief and reducing tax bill.ive also kept my highest ebi bulls and sold them or breeding .i will be scalding this back and only keep the
10 best ebi/genetic potential bulls as I expand my milking herd post 2015

Have to agree with you. Used to finish all culls but last couple of years a lad comes in to buy them first week of January. A months feed can make a big difference and a cheque after Christmas is always welcome.

delaval

cowmilk wrote: »

Thinking of buying into dairy. Father sold all dairy cows recently. Farm currently used for beef sucklers. I see current prices as an over inflated bubble. No one knows exactly when it will pop but I would prefer to buy cheap. What are my options for buying in? eg all at once, phased, delayed etc?

To answer your query, buy in one go from 1 herd if possible.

manjou

Muckit wrote: »

Not in diary but I'd agree the whole picture needs to be taken into account. A dairy farmer is primarily interested in producing as much milk as possible but you are handicapping your profits sstraight off by not factoring in calf and cull cow sales. There is a dairy farmer with fresains near here fattening 15 cows at present On his outfarm. Getting good grass and parlour nuts. Regardless of grade they will kill out some weight And come Iinto €. They produced a calf and milked majority of the year. Is +€20, 000 to be sniffed at?

If there was money in fattening or any type of beef the op would not be thinking of getting back into milk and would be same for most new enterants.

delaval

manjou wrote: »

If there was money in fattening or any type of beef the op would not be thinking of getting back into milk and would be same for most new enterants.

Top of the class. I didn't want to say that as some would think I was being smart

bob charles

manjou wrote: »

If there was money in fattening or any type of beef the op would not be thinking of getting back into milk and would be same for most new enterants.

Muckit, its only the best of farmers that are able to make money at beef, all bad ones should be sent off to milk cows:)

Muckit

It's hell of a lot easier l would imagine to fatten a cow pulled straight out of a milking parlour. All of a sudden all energy she was putting into her udder can go on her back. Unlike beef fattening operation u didn't have to buy her in. She's already added to your milk cheque all year and a freisan Hereford cross calf will have added a nice few pound also. As I said before because of her frame she will pile on serious weight.

Being too focused on one genetic trait is a road to disaster. All eggs in one basket. Who's the fool when milk price is sh*t?

delaval

Muckit wrote: »

It's hell of a lot easier l would imagine to fatten a cow pulled straight out of a milking parlour. All of a sudden all energy she was putting into her udder can go on her back. Unlike beef fattening operation u didn't have to buy her in. She's already added to your milk cheque all year and a freisan Hereford cross calf will have added a nice few pound also. As I said before because of her frame she will pile on serious weight.

Being too focused on one genetic trait is a road to disaster. All eggs in one basket. Who's the fool when milk price is sh*t?

If I was into beef I'd have a suckler herd

moy83

Muckit wrote: »

It's hell of a lot easier l would imagine to fatten a cow pulled straight out of a milking parlour. All of a sudden all energy she was putting into her udder can go on her back. Unlike beef fattening operation u didn't have to buy her in. She's already added to your milk cheque all year and a freisan Hereford cross calf will have added a nice few pound also. As I said before because of her frame she will pile on serious weight.

Being too focused on one genetic trait is a road to disaster. All eggs in one basket. Who's the fool when milk price is sh*t?

I know they have a frame but its just not bred into them to pile weight onto that frame whether they are milking or not

delaval

Muckit wrote: »

It's hell of a lot easier l would imagine to fatten a cow pulled straight out of a milking parlour. All of a sudden all energy she was putting into her udder can go on her back. Unlike beef fattening operation u didn't have to buy her in. She's already added to your milk cheque all year and a freisan Hereford cross calf will have added a nice few pound also. As I said before because of her frame she will pile on serious weight.

Being too focused on one genetic trait is a road to disaster. All eggs in one basket. Who's the fool when milk price is sh*t?

The fool when the price is shyte is the guy whose costs are too high

Farmer Pudsey

delaval wrote: »

If I was into beef I'd have a suckler herd

I doubt it delaval. Too many dairy farmers get caught up in allowing beef farmers make a profit. It was understandable while there was a limit on milk quota. Now post 15 no limit. Irish dairy farmers have the ability to produce the cheapest milk in Europe.

The dairy cycle is about 1-3-1 that is 1 very good year 3 normal years and 1 bad year. You aim should be to milk as much milk as is profitable( in a mid-low cost system) and possible off you milking platform.

For every farmer this may be different for instance it may mean not expanding beyond 70-80 cows as it may mean employing labour that will eat up any profit.

If you have land away from main farm the priority should be fodder and replacements. If it is near enough it may be viable to draw feed to grazing block to increase production. A fresian bull calf making 100 euro adds 1.5 cent/litre to the value of milk before costs. If you keep him a month longer he will cost at least 40 euro in feed costs (allowing 33cent/litre @3L milk a day and 1Kg of ration/day) and extra housing and straw bedding(nobody pays a premium for sh#tty looking calves. This also happen to be the busiest time of year on dairy farms

A cull cow kept over the winter eats into nitrates allowance and complicates a system to again maybe add an extra 1c/litre before costs(I calculating that she will be worth something as a cull)

If I was going dairying ( I am not as I work full time and have not got a big enough landbank) I seriously look at crossbreds, I forget about cull value maximise my milk o/p keep my costs low, flog all calves except replacements heifers. When my herd had matured I uses a Hereford bull on the cows except for replacements and if I wanted a beef operation I keep the heifers and finish them (this would only be a hobby).

Anybody that is serious about milking should forget about beef value. there are some here spouting about the beef value being worth 3c/litre before costs. At present friesian cattle are being discounted by factory's in the for of penalty's by not getting QA hard to get into appropriate fatscore and P= being discounted as well so they will struggle to average 100 euro over the next few years I think( I may be wrong) We may well see the situation where Jersey bulls well be disgarded like male goat lambs and it is a tough call for any farmer.

How much/litre will it cost to keep a calf an extra 2 weeks not just in feed costs. How many calculate the cost of drawing fodder to cattle in an out side farm in time as well as cost. Milking 1-2 extra cows might be more profitable

delaval

You've just drawn the wrath of the beef baron dairy guys. Can't wait for how they justify keeping animals that are actually costing money.

Oh yes, the cheque at Christmas. These stock are a great way of holding money till I need it!!!!!!

Farmer Pudsey

delaval wrote: »

If I was into beef I'd have a suckler herd

delaval wrote: »

You've just drawn the wrath of the beef baron dairy guys. Can't wait for how they justify keeping animals that are actually costing money.

Oh yes, the cheque at Christmas. These stock are a great way of holding money till I need it!!!!!![/QUOTE]

That is what a bank is for and if you shop around you will get a good interest rate as well. KBC bank is paying the best at present 2.3% for on demand money.

bob charles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

delaval wrote: »

You've just drawn the wrath of the beef baron dairy guys. Can't wait for how they justify keeping animals that are actually costing money.

Oh yes, the cheque at Christmas. These stock are a great way of holding money till I need it!!!!!![/QUOTE]

That is what a bank is for and if you shop around you will get a good interest rate as well. KBC bank is paying the best at present 2.3% for on demand money.

Dont be so negative lads. I know a good few dairy guys with big SFP's due to finishing a few dairy worhtless calves. Some of the shrewdest farmers I know have Dairy, cereals and beef. I cant say if its right or wrong but just what I see

TEAT SQUEEZER

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

delaval wrote: »

You've just drawn the wrath of the beef baron dairy guys. Can't wait for how they justify keeping animals that are actually costing money.

Oh yes, the cheque at Christmas. These stock are a great way of holding money till I need it!!!!!![/QUOTE]

That is what a bank is for and if you shop around you will get a good interest rate as well. KBC bank is paying the best at present 2.3% for on demand money.

they might be paying a better one before week is out ..... mighty PR disaster over w/e:mad:.. scandalous

mf240

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

they might be paying a better one before week is out ..... mighty PR disaster over w/e:mad:.. scandalous

What happened over weekend?

Farmer Pudsey

bob charles wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Dont be so negative lads. I know a good few dairy guys with big SFP's due to finishing a few dairy worhtless calves. Some of the shrewdest farmers I know have Dairy, cereals and beef. I cant say if its right or wrong but just what I see

Agreed but now they can keep the SFP and milk cows where is Tippman gone have not had any i/p from him in ages.

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Dont be so negative lads. I know a good few dairy guys with big SFP's due to finishing a few dairy worhtless calves. Some of the shrewdest farmers I know have Dairy, cereals and beef. I cant say if its right or wrong but just what I see

No money in cereal or beef, shrewd???
SPF can be collected without either

My comments are all post 2015, looking forward not back

TEAT SQUEEZER

mf240 wrote: »

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

What happened over weekend?

sent a demand letter to the widow of a man who commited suicide due to financial pressures.. their mortgage was out on accomodation in priory hall...

mf240

delaval wrote: »

bob charles wrote: »

No money in cereal or beef, shrewd???
SPF can be collected without either

My comments are all post 2015, looking forward not back

There is money in beef. Not as good as dairying but when you don't have quota what can you do.

After 2015 I will be getting into more cows and less cattle but I have a very common problem in this country. My land is scattered over several blocks. So will have to think outside the box if I am to replace beef completely.

mf240

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

mf240 wrote: »

sent a demand letter to the widow of a man who commited suicide due to financial pressures.. their mortgage was out on accomodation in priory hall...

Seen her on the late late. Didnt realise that was what you ment.

God help her.

delaval

mf240 wrote: »

delaval wrote: »

There is money in beef. Not as good as dairying but when you don't have quota what can you do.

After 2015 I will be getting into more cows and less cattle but I have a very common problem in this country. My land is scattered over several blocks. So will have to think outside the box if I am to replace beef completely.

I wonder is there any way to consolidate holdings. How would you get guys to agree.
Fragmentation is a very real obsticale to efficiency

TEAT SQUEEZER

delaval wrote: »

mf240 wrote: »

I wonder is there any way to consolidate holdings. How would you get guys to agree.
Fragmentation is a very real obsticale to efficiency

paddy farmer would more likely swap his wife before he`d consider a land swap:D

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

No money in cereal or beef, shrewd???
SPF can be collected without either

My comments are all post 2015, looking forward not back

Im only watching in from a distance, There may not be money in cereal production but when you add value to it, thats a different story. All cereals are either feed to beef or cows

Delaval its all well in good looking to the future but dont forget the past as it has a habit of repeating itself;)

Now where were we with this rising property prices,

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

I wonder is there any way to consolidate holdings. How would you get guys to agree.
Fragmentation is a very real obsticale to efficiency

bring back the land commission:p

Locally there is close on 500ac land that was divided by the land commission. finest, most fertile reclaimed land for the sea and majority of it is going to waste

mf240

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

delaval wrote: »

paddy farmer would more likely swap his wife before he`d consider a land swap:D

He'd swap her for more land but not another wife!!