Home help stealing from elderly aunt !

niamhx

Guys would anyone have any advice on this....

Don't want to give too many details away on the Internet as hopefully this will lead to a prosecution for the bitch involved.

My aunt lives alone, we got a home help in a year ago to help her in the mornings, quick tidy up, help her get dressed etc. she'd normally save about €150 a week from her pension, always has done. We keep it in a box in her room, when it hits the €1,000 which it does very quickly we lodge it in her account. For the last few months, and before that we we thought it had been going down, certainly wasn't building up as quick as before ! Anyway over the last three weeks we've deliberately put €500 and odd in the box, it's been reduced to €400 first week, it was €600 last week, now there was only €320 in it !! Back up too, €560 god knows what will be left next week when I'm down.

No one else has access to this money, it's hidden in a chest of drawers. The home help is the only one that could have touched this money !

How do I go about catching her ? I want to get her prosecuted, otherwise she'll just move on to the next elderly person and do the same thing to them. I'm ringing a guy this evenin about a hidden camera, I need to catch her with her hand in the box. I was told its the only way to get her for sure ?

Ellis Dee

niamhx wrote: »

Guys would anyone have any advice on this....

Don't want to give too many details away on the Internet as hopefully this will lead to a prosecution for the bitch involved.

My aunt lives alone, we got a home help in a year ago to help her in the mornings, quick tidy up, help her get dressed etc. she'd normally save about €150 a week from her pension, always has done. We keep it in a box in her room, when it hits the €1,000 which it does very quickly we lodge it in her account. For the last few months, and before that we we thought it had been going down, certainly wasn't building up as quick as before ! Anyway over the last three weeks we've deliberately put €500 and odd in the box, it's been reduced to €400 first week, it was €600 last week, now there was only €320 in it !! Back up too, €560 god knows what will be left next week when I'm down.

No one else has access to this money, it's hidden in a chest of drawers. The home help is the only one that could have touched this money !

How do I go about catching her ? I want to get her prosecuted, otherwise she'll just move on to the next elderly person and do the same thing to them. I'm ringing a guy this evenin about a hidden camera, I need to catch her with her hand in the box. I was told its the only way to get her for sure ?

I think the hidden camera is the best bet. Good luck with it.:)

Perhaps you should also speak to the Gardai about your suspicions. I believe they can dust banknotes (or anything) with a substance that indelibly stains any hands that touch it.:cool:

Anyone stealing so despicably from an old and infirm person deserves to be put out of business and you are doing other potential victims a service if you help have her caught.:)

dahamsta

You don't mention the aunt in connection to this, have you asked her? Is there a chance she's been moving it for some reason? How is she mentally? Might save you making accusations and causing ructions. Hidden camera would seem to be the obvious way of resolving it either way though.

niamhx

dahamsta wrote: »

You don't mention the aunt in connection to this, have you asked her? Is there a chance she's been moving it for some reason? How is she mentally? Might save you making accusations and causing ructions. Hidden camera would seem to be the obvious way of resolving it either way though.

My aunt hasn't touched the money, she'd have no reason too. She's 101 (no joke) mentally, she's brighter than me lol

I went to my local Garda this evening, I need to make a statement in her local station and the guys will take it from there. Two options, the powder or the hidden camera. I'll get the bitch one way, it's just a shame I can't slap her as a third option !!

Thanks guys

dahamsta

Did you ask her though? She could be as bright as a button and have a perfectly valid reason for using or simply moving the money.

If she's part of "we" then fair enough, but you haven't made this clear.

Janet1986

Definately get the hidden camera.

It would be good to catch the bitch in the act.

Has the carer any experience working with old people e.g Fetac level 5 care assistant? Or did you put an ad in the paper for home help?

niamhx

Of course we asked her, I would involve Garda if we hadn't.
Her home help is from the hse, I can only presume she has all qualifications. It took us years to make her see she needed help, she's a proud women. If she finds out this bitch has been stealing from her, she'll never allow anyone near the house again. She really needs the company more than the personal assistance iykwim.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Of course we asked her, I would involve Garda if we hadn't.
Her home help is from the hse, I can only presume she has all qualifications. It took us years to make her see she needed help, she's a proud women. If she finds out this bitch has been stealing from her, she'll never allow anyone near the house again. She really needs the company more than the personal assistance iykwim.

Have you told your aunt that you're considering installing a hidden camera?

Janet1986

I wouldn't let your aunt know about the hidden camera to be honest, just incase she mentions it to the home help by mistake.

If the camera is only over the money box/drawer, it won't be invading your aunts privacy.

Jesus Shaves

Janet1986 wrote: »

I wouldn't let your aunt know about the hidden camera to be honest, just incase she mentions it to the home help by mistake.

If the camera is only over the money box/drawer, it won't be invading your aunts privacy.

And what about the legal implications of installing a hidden camera in someones home without their consent?

bath handle

darokane wrote: »

Janet1986 wrote: »

I wouldn't let your aunt know about the hidden camera to be honest, just incase she mentions it to the home help by mistake.

If the camera is only over the money box/drawer, it won't be invading your aunts privacy.

And what about the legal implications of installing a hidden camera in someones home without their consent?

What legal implications?

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

niamhx wrote: »

Of course we asked her, I would involve Garda if we hadn't.
Her home help is from the hse, I can only presume she has all qualifications. It took us years to make her see she needed help, she's a proud women. If she finds out this bitch has been stealing from her, she'll never allow anyone near the house again. She really needs the company more than the personal assistance iykwim.

Have you told your aunt that you're considering installing a hidden camera?

I haven't and won't tell her, the shock of it would kill her plus she'd never allow anyone into the house again ! She needs the company more then anything, she's happy having her home help. I also need the peace of mind that comes with knowing she's someone to talk to daily.

I'm very aware of invading her personal space, I have thought this through. At the grand old age that she is, sadly she doesn't have the energy or inclination to change clothes very regularly, she also sleeps in them. Not ideal, but it suits her
I will be there daily to monitior the missing money, and also her during the process. It's a mindfield, but one way or the other I'll get this bitch !

Milk & Honey

Record the serial numbers on any notes that are there. If any are stolen you will know which ones are missing. The Garda can easily trace notes and find where they have been presented. She may well be caught on CCTV presenting a stolen note.

PseudoFamous

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The Garda can easily trace notes and find where they have been presented.

I'm not sure I believe that to be honest, unless the bills are notes worth €100 or more. Why bother recording every fiver that might be in ten newsagents/bookies before being deposited?

MagicSean

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Record the serial numbers on any notes that are there. If any are stolen you will know which ones are missing. The Garda can easily trace notes and find where they have been presented. She may well be caught on CCTV presenting a stolen note.

That doesn't sound like something the Gardaí can easily do to me. I'm not aware of any business that records the serial numbers on notes they receive. It would be possible to check the serial numbers against any money found in her posession though.

Milk & Honey

The Gardai usually ask the local banks to keep an eye out for particular numbers. The bank will know the retailer who dropped in the consignment of notes.

PseudoFamous

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The Gardai usually ask the local banks to keep an eye out for particular numbers. The bank will know the retailer who dropped in the consignment of notes.

That's great that the retailer dropped in the notes, but what if the notes have been given in as change to a different customer, and brought to, say, another town? Nearly impossible to trace.

trishasaffron

Good luck with this.

I know from personal experience just how extremely delicate these situations are!

In normal circs of course it would be the aunt's choice as to how to handle it but genuinely once someone is 90+ its wishful thinking to imagine they can handle complex things -even tho they think they can!

niamhx

Tracking the money by the serial numbers wasn't an option I was given by the guard yesterday. It seems the only way is to catch her is red handed, either by camera or the powder showing up in her hands.

My aunt is in no way capable of dealin with this situation by herself, as I said before I'll go to any length to hide this from her, I sincerely hope the guards respect this. It would do so much damage to her, she'd never trust another person in the house again, she really needs the interaction with people when we're not available to her.

Thanks for your help guys, hopefully I nab her soon

Jesus Shaves

I don't see how installing hidden cameras in somone elses house without their permission would be legal, if it's not legal you can't get a conviction from it.

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

I don't see how installing hidden cameras in somone elses house without their permission would be legal, if it's not legal you can't get a conviction from it.

Says who ? I explained my fears to the guard yesterday, he didn't have a problem with it, actually he agreed with me ! Do you have legal knowledge on this ? I like to know if you do, simply because I won't press charges if I thought she'd have to be involved in anyway.

patwicklow

What a fantastic age she is and what a shame that is happening how could any one in there right mind do that, and if your aunt finds out will be so hard for her to trust any one, god bless her hope its sorted soon.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Says who ? I explained my fears to the guard yesterday, he didn't have a problem with it, actually he agreed with me ! Do you have legal knowledge on this ? I like to know if you do, simply because I won't press charges if I thought she'd have to be involved in anyway.

I was hoping someone on here would know, if i was you i'd look for legal advice before doing this

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

niamhx wrote: »

Says who ? I explained my fears to the guard yesterday, he didn't have a problem with it, actually he agreed with me ! Do you have legal knowledge on this ? I like to know if you do, simply because I won't press charges if I thought she'd have to be involved in anyway.

I was hoping someone on here would know, if i was you i'd look for legal advice before doing this

I'll follow the law of the guards for now, that's their job surly ? They know how to go about getting a prosecution, and making it stick. Legal advice will be her problem when I catch her.

Victor

What are the odds of the aunt getting the home help to drag her down to the bookies every week?

Do not install the camera without the Garda's consent / instruction.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

I'll follow the law of the guards for now, that's their job surly ? They know how to go about getting a prosecution, and making it stick. Legal advice will be her problem when I catch her.

suit yourself, 5 minutes with a solicitor would give you all you need to know, if it was me i'd take a solicitors words over the guards any day.

username123

Can you super clean the chest of drawers and box the money is kept in then fingerprint it when the money has been taken?

whydoibother?

I have doubts about it being legal to record somoene in their home without their consent.

For that matter, I also have doubts about whether it's legal to record someone in their place of work without their consent or knowledge, however well intentioned. Would the home help not technically need to be made aware of the camera, making it a good preventative measure going into the future, but not a great way to catch them?

niamhx

Victor wrote: »

What are the odds of the aunt getting the home help to drag her down to the bookies every week?

Do not install the camera without the Garda's consent / instruction.

I thought mods were meant to stop bul**** posts like this ? If you'd read the thread before commenting, you'd have read the guards will put the cameras in, or powder the money !

I'll ask the guards about the legal side of things, with a full time job three kids I really don't have time to be running around everywhere, plus the annoyance of having to go my aunts house (1hr drive from me) to check whether that bitch has run out of money and has dipped her hands in my aunts.

dahamsta

It was a perfectly legitimate question, and you never specified that the Gardai would be installing the cameras.

Stop jumping down peoples throats, there are negative possibilities involved and people wouldn't be giving you full and frank answers if they didn't bring them up. If you don't want to hear them, ask somewhere else.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

I thought mods were meant to stop bul**** posts like this ? If you'd read the thread before commenting, you'd have read the guards will put the cameras in, or powder the money !

I'll ask the guards about the legal side of things, with a full time job three kids I really don't have time to be running around everywhere, plus the annoyance of having to go my aunts house (1hr drive from me) to check whether that bitch has run out of money and has dipped her hands in my aunts.

people are only trying to help you
putting a hidden cameras in ones house would be like tapping someones phone which is illegal
like i said ask a solicitor who would know more about the legal side of things than the guards

Milk & Honey

darokane wrote: »

I don't see how installing hidden cameras in somone elses house without their permission would be legal, if it's not legal you can't get a conviction from it.

What law is it against? In any case illegally evidence is admissible. Even if it was illegal the aunt would have to complain, hardly likely at her age and position in life. At all events if there is CCTV footage of the home help stealing, that will ground an arrest. The home help will likely confess. If there is a note of the serial numbers all the better. There can be a search of her pockets/bags.

Milk & Honey

darokane wrote: »

people are only trying to help you
putting a hidden cameras in ones house would be like tapping someones phone which is illegal
like i said ask a solicitor who would know more about the legal side of things than the guards

There is a specific offence of tapping intercepting a phone call. it does not apply to making a recording of one own phone which is much more analogous to this position. The o/p will not be charged with any offence arising out of making a recording of what is happening in her aunts house. At all events do you know the difference between illegally obtained evidence and unconstitutionally obtained evidence? One is admissible the other isn't as a general rule.

Jesus Shaves

Milk & Honey wrote: »

There is a specific offence of tapping intercepting a phone call. it does not apply to making a recording of one own phone which is much more analogous to this position.

Recording on ones phone and installing a hidden camera in someones house without their consent are completely different.

Victor

How certain can you be of your aunt's weekly expenditure?

niamhx wrote: »

If you'd read the thread before commenting, you'd have read the guards will put the cameras in, or powder the money !

If you re-read what you have posted, you will see that you have been somewhat ambiguous about it, for example saying:

niamhx wrote: »

I'm ringing a guy this evenin about a hidden camera, I need to catch her with her hand in the box.

Now, it is unusual to refer to a member of the Garda as "a guy" and given your zealousness to get "this bitch", you need to be careful that you don't overstep the mark.

whydoibother? wrote: »

I have doubts about it being legal to record somoene in their home without their consent.

Agreed.

For that matter, I also have doubts about whether it's legal to record someone in their place of work without their consent or knowledge, however well intentioned. Would the home help not technically need to be made aware of the camera, making it a good preventative measure going into the future, but not a great way to catch them?

Two factors come into this (a) it is a private home and the householder would be somewhat entitled to make recordings (areas where privacy can be expected aside, e.g. a bathroom) (b) the data protection commissioner appears to be happy with CCTV where the time span is limited and is for the purposes of apprehending a suspect.

Milk & Honey

darokane wrote: »

Recording on ones phone and installing a hidden camera in someones house without their consent are completely different.

The o/p would be deemed to be the agent of her aunt and so recording in her own home. It would not afford any defence to the home help if it turned out that the aunt did not approve. Can you identify any offence with which the o/p would be charged after installing the camera?

Milk & Honey

whydoibother? wrote: »

I have doubts about it being legal to record somoene in their home without their consent.

For that matter, I also have doubts about whether it's legal to record someone in their place of work without their consent or knowledge, however well intentioned. Would the home help not technically need to be made aware of the camera, making it a good preventative measure going into the future, but not a great way to catch them?

Doubts are all very well. What laws are there?
In the circumstances, suppose that he home help is innocent. Suppose the money is being taken by a neighbour or other family member and the home help is being framed.
Telling the home help that she is being surveyed by camera may result in the home help feeling that her hard work is not being appreciated and she might leave, depriving the aunt of her services.
Putting in a camera may exonerate the home help who is now under suspicion.

Jesus Shaves

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The o/p would be deemed to be the agent of her aunt and so recording in her own home. It would not afford any defence to the home help if it turned out that the aunt did not approve. Can you identify any offence with which the o/p would be charged after installing the camera?

That's fair enough, not telling the Aunt is very underhanded and sneaky IMO.
If it was my house I wouldn't be happy if anyone installed hidden cameras in it without my consent

Milk & Honey

darokane wrote: »

That's fair enough, not telling the Aunt is very underhanded and sneaky IMO.
If it was my house I wouldn't be happy if anyone installed hidden cameras in it without my consent

Not telling the aunt is in the aunt's best interests.

Jesus Shaves

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Not telling the aunt is in the aunt's best interests.

It's up to the Aunt to decide what's in her best interests

whydoibother?

Victor wrote: »

Two factors come into this (a) it is a private home and the householder would be somewhat entitled to make recordings (areas where privacy can be expected aside, e.g. a bathroom) (b) the data protection commissioner appears to be happy with CCTV where the time span is limited and is for the purposes of apprehending a suspect.

Can it be said that there be grounds to suspect anything if the aunt hasn't been asked whether she moved it? I don't know. It just seems a bit like jumping to conclusions.

alexlyons

Why don't you move the box and if your aunt asks you where it's gone then you know it's her looking for the money.

If she mentions that the home help told her to ask you or indeed the home help asks you by saying your aunt was looking for it then it's more likely her.

Not getting involved in the camera debate

Janet1986

I would take my chances with the camera and only put one where the money box is.

It might be no harm to say it to a solicitor about your aunts situation.

I would also talk to a few family members and have all of ye agree to have a camera installed for your aunts interest, put it on paper and sign it

niamhx

Guys I've been cagey with what I've been saying, simply because you never know who reads things like this.

There are two people who look after my aunt (its neither of us, other person made me aware of the situation) Were all the family she has.

I think what some people aren't realising is my aunts 101 !! She can't go out, shes not able too. She hasn't left the house in 2 years, we collect all pension, shop for her an put the remaining money away until it reaches an amount thats worth trekking to the bank with ( it ain't easy fitting in all these things when we live in Dublin and she doesn't ) this has always been the way it's been done, I'm talking 20 yrs here, she's no access to shops, banks etc. She has never touched the money in the box, no reason too we leave her more than enough in her purse and that's for the coal man.

Anything that will be done will only be done with the assistance of the Garda, I'm in no danger of being prosecuted because of this. My aunt is in no danger of her personal space being invaded, the box is no where near where she sleeps, other end of the room, she only changes her clothes once a week and that's done downstairs with the aid of her home help.

CharlieCroker

I think you've missed one important thing regarding any prosecution. The home help CANNOT be prosecuted without the knowledge of your aunt. She's the injured party, not you and as a result needs to give a statement saying that she has not given anybody permission to take this money (or in this case, has only given you permission in order to bank it).

The investigation can occur but it's a complete waste of time if your not willing to tell your aunt what's going on.

niamhx

CharlieCroker wrote: »

I think you've missed one important thing regarding any prosecution. The home help CANNOT be prosecuted without the knowledge of your aunt. She's the injured party, not you and as a result needs to give a statement saying that she has not given anybody permission to take this money (or in this case, has only given you permission in order to bank it).

The investigation can occur but it's a complete waste of time if your not willing to tell your aunt what's going on.

CC that may very well be true, makes sense in a way. I thought that might be the case, if it is well then I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. At least I'll get enough with the guards help to make sure she never works for the hse again ! God knows how many she's taken money from in the past, she's three or four people ATM that she's "helping" !

It WILL kill my aunt if she was find out ! She hasn't stepped outside her door since a Romanian women knocked on the car window (I'd left her in the car to collect her pension) and stole her purse. This would finish her off.

later12

Hi OP.

Something vaguely similar happened with my grandmother. In her case her accountant was committing fraud. She eventually found out about it, but didn't want it all to come out in the open. So nothing happened.

However, she died shortly enough afterwards and we were able to take a case ourselves on her behalf. Sorry if that's a little morbid, but I just wanted to throw it out there.

You might also be able to argue that your aunt is permanently incapacitated, and that engaging the authorities herself would seriously jeopardize her health. In such circumstances, perhaps charges could be brought against the home help if you had sufficient evidence.

niamhx

later10 wrote: »

Hi OP.

Something vaguely similar happened with my grandmother. In her case her accountant was committing fraud. She eventually found out about it, but didn't want it all to come out in the open. So nothing happened.

However, she died shortly enough afterwards and we were able to take a case ourselves on her behalf. Sorry if that's a little morbid, but I just wanted to throw it out there.

You might also be able to argue that your aunt is permanently incapacitated, and that engaging the authorities herself would seriously jeopardize her health. In such circumstances, perhaps charges could be brought against the home help if you had sufficient evidence.

Later10 thanks for that, I might be able to use some of that when the time comes. I'm sorry your grandmother went through this too, some real bastards out there that's for sure !

Kosseegan

CharlieCroker wrote: »

I think you've missed one important thing regarding any prosecution. The home help CANNOT be prosecuted without the knowledge of your aunt. She's the injured party, not you and as a result needs to give a statement saying that she has not given anybody permission to take this money (or in this case, has only given you permission in order to bank it).

The investigation can occur but it's a complete waste of time if your not willing to tell your aunt what's going on.

That is rubbish. All that needs to be proven is that the home help was not the owner of the money. The person who put the money in the box on behalf of the aunt can say who owned the money.

Jesus Shaves

I would get something done about this quickly, it's not in your aunts interests to have her money stolen like this

d9oiu2wk07blr5

OP, you really need to contact the public health nurse to advise them of your concerns. From what you are saying this is a possible case of elder financial abuse and in addition to any possible criminal prosecution the HSE would need to address this internally in the interests of your aunt and any other service users this person may be in contact with. Personally, I would demand another home help.