Best food to feed dogs?

Rocket19

What is the best kind/brand of food to feed a dog in your opinion?

We have three dogs, a pedigree pomeranian, a saluki/lab cross and a pedigree lab (not sure if this matters!).
Anyway, we've been feeding the two larger dogs pedigree complete dog food, and while at first I thought "this is fine", i'm starting to think the food is muck. It's just so brightly coloured and full of junk, it really can't be healthy for them.
The pom is a VERY picky eater and will only eat canned food, and because she's going on 14, I think I may just leave her be! However, the larger two are very young and will basically eat anything , so I want to put them on a quality dry food.

Which would you recommend? Burns was suggested to me, but I'm open to opinions. I really have no clue and wish I'd done this earlier.

Any replies greatly appreciated : )

Zapperzy

Burns is good. Basically anything without meat & animal derivatives or cereals as the first ingredients are good. Some good brands are burns, james wellbeloved, arden grange, orijen, clinivet, red mills leader, royal canin, and whites (although lots of people having trouble with delivery lately). A good rule of thumb is if you can buy it in a supermarket it's rubbish. Have a look on zooplus.ie as you can view the ingredient lists of a wide selection of foods, quite cheap to buy off too if you want to order online.

There are a few decent brands of wet food you could change the pom onto such as naturediet and I think it's called naturo. Mine loves naturediet mixed with dry food.

rorrissey

I have my Golden Retriever x German Shepherd puppy on Feedwell Puppy, the man in my local pet shop sold it to us. He told us it was great, but then again it was the only brand he sold. Anyway, the puppy seems to like it and from what I've read it's meant to be good for strengthening puppy's teeth.
Has anyone else tried it?

Zapperzy

rorrissey wrote: »

I have my Golden Retriever x German Shepherd puppy on Feedwell Puppy, the man in my local pet shop sold it to us. He told us it was great, but then again it was the only brand he sold. Anyway, the puppy seems to like it and from what I've read it's meant to be good for strengthening puppy's teeth.
Has anyone else tried it?

Is this it? http://www.feedwell.com/products_puppy.html Any chance you could post up the ingredient list as they don't have it on the website. Maybe I'm reading the website wrong but from what I gather they recommend mixing it with milk and eggs, if so I wouldn't hold much hope of the food being good quality because anyone that knows the slightest about dog nutrition should know you don't feed pups milk (cow's milk).

danlen

Hi,

I have been heavily involved with dogs for a while and have done a good bit of research in this area.

To be honest, if you can feed your dogs on real meat and food it would be a million times better for them. I know it can be an extra expense for people (especially considering the cheap muck you can buy in supermarkets) but it really does make a world of difference.

I feed my German Shepherds raw meat. I will also throw in a couple of raw eggs and veggies every so often to give a wider variety of nutrients. If you are going to use a raw meat diet make sure to include bones that the dogs can actually eat.

I would highly recommend this approach and would advise you to trial it for a week or two. I guarentee you will notice the difference in their coats' appearence and their energy levels.

You can avoid higher costs by asking local butchers for offcuts of meat that are not going to be used.

Hope this proves to be of some help.

Léan

Hi there,
I started a thread a while ago asking about dog food too and I got a lot of helpful information there, it might be worth your while to look over it .

Here's my two cents...
I've a 6 month old German Shepherd X. Who is fed Orijen large breed puppy food and was doing well on it.
A lot of people advocate the raw food diet, so I tried to supplement this with my guy, mostly with big lovely bones from the butchers.

But...
In the last week my pup has been very ill and had bad diarrhea.
I brought him to the vet on Friday and he saw a Gastro specialist. She told me that the majority of dogs cannot process bones anymore, and although they are munching them down, they cause havoc internally long term.

She said to me that owners come in with the 'their coat is so shiny, they look so healthy' thing but told me that she has seen it on the operating table, with dogs pancreases' seriously damaged from the raw food diet as they age, that the majority of domestic dogs can no longer process raw food.
This was the reason my pup was so ill, he had obtained an infection from not being able to process bones.
He is now on anti-biotics and a chicken a rice diet for the next 10 days to sort it out.

I know a lot of people on here have their animals thriving on raw food, but this is just my experience of the other side of things. A lot of people (including myself) have been brought up with the mentality that a good bone is one of the best things to feed your dog, but it seems, in my case anyway, that this is not true.

mistress_gi

I am now feeding our dog a mix of taste of the wild and happy dog xxl (both bought from zooplus.ie)

Nuttzz

Move my lad from Royal Canin to Burns and the (good) change in his coat as really noticeable within a month

danlen

Léan wrote: »

Hi there,
I started a thread a while ago asking about dog food too and I got a lot of helpful information there, it might be worth your while to look over it .

Here's my two cents...
I've a 6 month old German Shepherd X. Who is fed Orijen large breed puppy food and was doing well on it.
A lot of people advocate the raw food diet, so I tried to supplement this with my guy, mostly with big lovely bones from the butchers.

But...
In the last week my pup has been very ill and had bad diarrhea.
I brought him to the vet on Friday and he saw a Gastro specialist. She told me that the majority of dogs cannot process bones anymore, and although they are munching them down, they cause havoc internally long term.

She said to me that owners come in with the 'their coat is so shiny, they look so healthy' thing but told me that she has seen it on the operating table, with dogs pancreases' seriously damaged from the raw food diet as they age, that the majority of domestic dogs can no longer process raw food.
This was the reason my pup was so ill, he had obtained an infection from not being able to process bones.
He is now on anti-biotics and a chicken a rice diet for the next 10 days to sort it out.

I know a lot of people on here have their animals thriving on raw food, but this is just my experience of the other side of things. A lot of people (including myself) have been brought up with the mentality that a good bone is one of the best things to feed your dog, but it seems, in my case anyway, that this is not true.

I don't want to question the integrity or knowledge of your vet, but alot of what she has told you is plain wrong.

I don't doubt there was something that damaged your dog internally, but to claim that the majority of dogs have evolved to no longer be able to process raw meat is quite ludicrous tbh.

What type of bones were you feeding your dog?

rorrissey

Zapperzy wrote: »

Is this it? http://www.feedwell.com/products_puppy.html Any chance you could post up the ingredient list as they don't have it on the website. Maybe I'm reading the website wrong but from what I gather they recommend mixing it with milk and eggs, if so I wouldn't hold much hope of the food being good quality because anyone that knows the slightest about dog nutrition should know you don't feed pups milk (cow's milk).

No you don't mix it with anything, those are dried in the food.

Ingredients: Cereals, Meat and Meat Derivatives, Dried Milk, Dried Eggs, Oils and Fats.

26% Protein, 8% Oil, 3% Fibre, 10% Ash.

I've only half a bag left of it, should I change it to another brand? He seems to be doing fine on this to be honest.

Shanao

I would definitely take him off the Feedwell. Its the same as ourselves, we can survive on junk food, but down the line there will be reprecussions. Never feed a dog food that has the first ingredient listed as cereals. What cereals are they exactly? You have no way of knowing. A lot of dogs have allergies to wheat and gluten intolerance is rising amongst canines so a food with as little and at least named cereals would be far better.
The second ingredient is 'meat and meat derivatives'. Again, what exactly are they? What meat are they? Quite frankly they could be anything, from beef one batch, to chicken the next batch, down to diseased meat, roadkill and euthanised animals (and before anyone claims I'm scaremongering, a few companies were caught using these as their meat sources). One of my dogs is allergic to pork, I need to know exactly what is in his food before I give it to him, if your dog ever has an allergic reaction, you wont know what its to as there is no way in knowing exactly what's in the food.
Also, dried milk? Dogs and cats are lactose intolerant after ten weeks of age, so there should never be any dairy product in their foods!!
Feedwell is cheap, and there's a reason its cheap. You'd be doing much better getting the dog onto a high quality food with a named meat as the first ingredient (and listed as either meal or dried) and as little cereal as possible.

rorrissey

Shanao wrote: »

I would definitely take him off the Feedwell. Its the same as ourselves, we can survive on junk food, but down the line there will be reprecussions. Never feed a dog food that has the first ingredient listed as cereals. What cereals are they exactly? You have no way of knowing. A lot of dogs have allergies to wheat and gluten intolerance is rising amongst canines so a food with as little and at least named cereals would be far better.
The second ingredient is 'meat and meat derivatives'. Again, what exactly are they? What meat are they? Quite frankly they could be anything, from beef one batch, to chicken the next batch, down to diseased meat, roadkill and euthanised animals (and before anyone claims I'm scaremongering, a few companies were caught using these as their meat sources). One of my dogs is allergic to pork, I need to know exactly what is in his food before I give it to him, if your dog ever has an allergic reaction, you wont know what its to as there is no way in knowing exactly what's in the food.
Also, dried milk? Dogs and cats are lactose intolerant after ten weeks of age, so there should never be any dairy product in their foods!!
Feedwell is cheap, and there's a reason its cheap. You'd be doing much better getting the dog onto a high quality food with a named meat as the first ingredient (and listed as either meal or dried) and as little cereal as possible.

Thanks, I'd say we'll switch to Burns or Orijen soon enough.

Bebo stunnah

Léan wrote: »

But...
In the last week my pup has been very ill and had bad diarrhea.
I brought him to the vet on Friday and he saw a Gastro specialist. She told me that the majority of dogs cannot process bones anymore, and although they are munching them down, they cause havoc internally long term.

By any chance did were you feeding him bones that had been cooked/heated, or chicken bones? As they can be brittle and splinter when a dog chews on them.

Cherry Blossom

Léan wrote: »

I know a lot of people on here have their animals thriving on raw food, but this is just my experience of the other side of things.

I'm not sure about the advice your vet gave you, but I agree that raw doesn't suit all dogs, I tried mine on raw last year for about 3 weeks and it made her very bloated, lethargic and constipated. I was feeding lamb ribs, hearts etc. She was also passing fragments of bone and yes it was all fed raw - frozen for 2 weeks and completely defrosted before feeding.

Léan

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

By any chance did were you feeding him bones that had been cooked/heated, or chicken bones? As they can be brittle and splinter when a dog chews on them.

Nope. They were completely raw. No poultry bones whatsoever. I have cousin who is a butcher so I was getting the best cuts of bones available.

danlen wrote: »

I don't want to question the integrity or knowledge of your vet, but alot of what she has told you is plain wrong.

I don't doubt there was something that damaged your dog internally, but to claim that the majority of dogs have evolved to no longer be able to process raw meat is quite ludicrous tbh.

I know the raw food diet is a very divided subject, some people believe it works wonders and some people don't. My vet recognized this and freely admitted that generally your dog will look better, have a better coat etc... but the long term effects internally in a dog aren't worth it.

I'm not being smart here, but she is a gastro specialist in a very well reputed veterinary clinic in the city here, so to come out and say she's 'plain wrong' and 'ludicrous' is a little hasty I think. I don't know you or anything about you, however I do know my vet, I know she deals with dogs with stomach problems on a daily basis, she is very well qualified and I trust her.

I am not saying by any means the raw food diet is dreadful, I am saying that it doesn't suit many dogs, my dog included. Since I have taken my dog off raw food he is in much better condition. This is my main point!

There is a lot of positivity on boards towards the raw food diet, and that's great, but I am just trying to give a more balanced point of view of things. I would hate anyones dog to become ill like my fella has; therefore I do feel strongly that people should consider the possible negative effects involved.

Raw food aside. My guy is on chicken and rice for the next week or so which he loves. Before that his main diet was Orijen Large Breed Puppy Food which he was doing very well on and he will be going back to this after the chicken and rice. It is pricey but if you shop around online you can get some good deals.

Originally he was on Hills Science Plan which was grand but I wanted him on a higher quality food so we changed over to Orijen .

barbiegirl

We feed our two Robbies Chicken and Rice, it contains nothing but Chicken Rice, Veg and herbs. The ingredients list looks like a recipe for dinner for you. They are both fantastic on it. One is a medium sized retriever/spaniel cross and the other a JRT/King Charles. Their coats are fantastic, they both eat every day (the retriever cross used to only eat about once every 3 days), their weight is perfect, the retrievers nose and eye soreness as a result of allergies is gone.
http://www.landofholisticpets.co.uk/luath_dog_food_ingredients.htm
They will send you a sample if you request.

tk123

I think the best food is the best food for you and your dog - not all diets suit all dogs. What suits your budget, storage space, way of life and what suits the dog - poo, coat, behaviour any allergies or conditions that may need to be taken into consideration etc etc . My guy is on JWB cereal free at the moment and it suits him and my budget but I'll probably move to a fresh diet at some stage in the future if I ever get a bigger fridge and freezer so I can prepare it in advance.
It really is a can of worms..or a freshly dug/dehydrated/frozen/imitation etc etc ones :pac:

Bebo stunnah

I've always wondered though, why does dog food nearly always have 'Ash' listed as an ingredient?

chris139ryan

Bebo stunnah wrote: »

I've always wondered though, why does dog food nearly always have 'Ash' listed as an ingredient?

ash in food is the vitamins and minerals content

Graces7

Wondering when commercial dog food became the way to feed?

Generations of dogs and cats thrived on table scraps.

We feed raw and home cooked. Easy and by far the cheapest, and for our dogs and cats, excellent. Raw is always chicken.

I don't eat processed food and nor do our pets.

Someone posted that if you could buy the food in a supermarket it was rubbish? Vets have been known to recommend the LIDL pet foods.

david75

is red mills any good does anyone know?

DogsFirst

chris139ryan wrote: »

ash in food is the vitamins and minerals content

Think ash is just the mineral content. Ash is all the inorganic stuff that's left over (vitamins burn away) when they incinerate bones. The reason they do this is a cheap way of getting in vital minerals like selenium, copper etc that are absent in the crappy ingredients they include.

AAFCO permit up to 10% ash! which manufacturers willing do, cuz it's a cheap filler. This is hugh considering spinnach isn't 1% ash. Also it explains why calcium and phosphorus levels are often far too high in dry foods. The higher the ash the more work for the kidneys.

DogsFirst

emmm posted in the wrong place....didn't want to leave this blank.......

DogsFirst

re

" the majority of dogs cannot process bones anymore"

and

"with dogs pancreases' seriously damaged from the raw food diet as they age"


Hi Lean, really sorry to hear about your dog. Feel a bit responsible as I was advising you the meat and bones. Hope he mends up quick.

But have to agree with D above. Unfortunately I reckon your mind has been made up by the advice quoted.......... but I'll give it a go!!!

Totally accepted the vet is a specialist in her field. Sure we're all specialists here in boards too!! Seriously thought you have to wonder how a gastro specialist thinks the best diet for a dog is the dry food? I mean how did the dog evolve to that?!!

What was the name of that gastro specialist? I'll drop her a line and discuss the points she mentioned to you above. For the moment, here's my thoughts.


The notion that dogs can't digest meat and bone anymore flies in the face of all the current research (Londsdale, xrayed dogs stomachs after a bone meal to prove this, all research available on his site rawmeatybones.com). Dogs are geared for raw meat - mouth, saliva, taste receptors, teeth, gullet, small acidic stomach, short fast intestinal tract, decreased micro flora, physiology geared for meat (such as converting carns to protein). I've never heard of a specialist ever supposing anything else.

I've made a video about all this if it helps, not sure if I can put a youtube link to my own vids?!

At any rate I'll contact the vet and get their side of the argument.


The second one is the doozey. Studies show over half of healthy adult cats and dogs are showing signs of pancreatitis (in fact it's 67% for mature cats). Dogs suffer it 25 - 80 times more than humans. It is an absolute epidemic and the most painful end for your pet you can imagine. The point is, with it so rife in pets (and rising exponentially in the last 40 years) how does this vet explain these ultra high rates when less than 10% of pets are fed fresh ingredients today??!!! The maths doesn't add up. The max these studies should be finding should be 10% pancreatitis in healthy pets. They are completely wrong on this one.

It is more likely the carnivorous pancreas is struggling with the high carbohydrate load from dry food. All this carbohydrate has to be digested by the dogs pancreas (as dogs, as meat eaters, have no amylase in their saliva, necessary for carb digestion). On top of this the pancreas then has to produce enough insulin to balance the soaring blood sugar levels from the carbohydrate meal. This is massive stress for a pancreas used to dealing with only negligible amounts of carbs.

Your dogs diarrhoea may well have been caused by something on the meat. While raw fed dogs are immune to any issues, dry fed dogs are suspected to have stomach acids geared for dry food (ph4) and not the normal meat and bone meal (requiring pH1 which studies show reduces fresh bone to chyme in one hour in all domestic dogs). With the wrong pH baddies can get in. This is why changeovers should be done over weeks. Check out Mogens Eliasen (chemist and dog nutrition nut of 30 years) for refs. Or it could of been a big bone with too much marrow? Or it could be that your dog simply had a reaction to the smash of nutrition from the fresh ingredients (though completely unproven that one). Or it could be something else.....

Bottom line, dogs on raw food are significantly healthier than dogs fed premium dry food (see http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/doddsnutrition.html, half way down, for today's only reputable study of raw versus dry fed dogs, they used 300 dogs in the study, the info is now repeated on loads of sites). If dogs lost the ability to consume raw meat, nobody told these dogs.

Only putting this out there in case people are reading the advice given to you as gospel on the whole fresh ingredients thing. It's a tricky, confused business.

I'll post the gastro specialists answers to these points as soon as I can (if you send me the name....!!). Cheers Lean, hope he gets well soon.

Léan

Hi DogsFirst,
I didn't want to turn this into a "my vet said this, my vet said that" thing, and by no means do I want anyone to take what I said as gospel, but at the same time, I don't think anyone should take the raw food diet being the best diet as gospel either. Just to point out here also, my vet was not saying her way was the best way either, she was talking about her experience and acknowledged that it is a divided subject and many other vets are pro or against the raw food diet.

My main point has been that there is a lot of stuff on boards preaching the raw food diet and I just wanted to highlight that it can have negative sides too. Up to now if someone did a search i'm sure there would be glowing responses about the raw food diet, I think it's important there is a balanced opinion. I am not condemning it by any means.
Like I said before, one dog might thrive on it, it might not suit another dog at all.

My dog will still be getting nice chunks of meat, they will just be cooked and boneless now.


tk123 said it best, getting the right diet for your dog really is a can of worms.

DogsFirst

Léan wrote: »

Hi DogsFirst,
I didn't want to turn this into a "my vet said this, my vet said that" thing, and by no means do I want anyone to take what I said as gospel, but at the same time, I don't think anyone should take the raw food diet being the best diet as gospel either. Just to point out here also, my vet was not saying her way was the best way either, she was talking about her experience and acknowledged that it is a divided subject and many other vets are pro or against the raw food diet.

My main point has been that there is a lot of stuff on boards preaching the raw food diet and I just wanted to highlight that it can have negative sides too. Up to now if someone did a search i'm sure there would be glowing responses about the raw food diet, I think it's important there is a balanced opinion. I am not condemning it by any means.
Like I said before, one dog might thrive on it, it might not suit another dog at all.

My dog will still be getting nice chunks of meat, they will just be cooked and boneless now.


tk123 said it best, getting the right diet for your dog really is a can of worms.

Totally agree, you need healthy debate, both sides, and people make their minds up from there.

Getting the right diet is easy though!! Easy as feeding yourself!! Complete foods, now that's technical

Wibbs

Léan wrote: »

I know the raw food diet is a very divided subject, some people believe it works wonders and some people don't.

+1. It can be a bit faddy TBH.

I'm not being smart here, but she is a gastro specialist in a very well reputed veterinary clinic in the city here, so to come out and say she's 'plain wrong' and 'ludicrous' is a little hasty I think. I don't know you or anything about you, however I do know my vet, I know she deals with dogs with stomach problems on a daily basis, she is very well qualified and I trust her.

I'd agree here too, however some of the vet advice when it comes to dogs flies in the face of good and solid research too. IMHO and it is obviously my HO, vet medicine is quite a bit behind human in a lot of ways, not least on nutrition. Next time ask any/your vet about yearly vaccinations against viral diseases. If they say it's a given, then I'd suggest reading the extensive research on the matter. Average dog lives, what 10 years? How many vaccinations does it get with full vet backing? Average human lives near 80 years these days and how many viral vaccinations does he/she get? Similar for spaying/neutering. If a human patient lost their sex hormones, doctors would be bloody quick to make up the shortfall, yet many vets have little issue with it

I am not saying by any means the raw food diet is dreadful, I am saying that it doesn't suit many dogs, my dog included. Since I have taken my dog off raw food he is in much better condition. This is my main point!

Well personally speaking I'd be in the middle on this one L. Raw food diet is or seems like a Great Idea(tm). However I'd look beyond that and look at domestication. Ditto for humans BTW. Dogs, or most breeds of dogs have been domesticated for at least 10,000 years. Much like ourselves as humans. In humans that has caused some huge changes in our DNA. More changes have occurred in modern human DNA in the last 10,000 years than in the previous 50,000 years. The majority are changes in response to novel foods. Gluten and lactose tolerance two obvious ones in us. Given how close we and dogs are in this shared evolution and environment I would not be surprised to find similar in many breeds. I'd put good money that canine research has not looked for these genetic changes where they might occur.

On a practical and personal experience note, a mate of mine from way back has worked with wolves, both in the wild and for the purposes of this argument in captivity(through him Ive deal with them myself for a short time). He found wolves can't deal with any dry dog food at all, regardless of the quality/proportions. Instant squits and in extremis even vomiting soon after eating it. Indeed listening to him, if you're ever faced with a wild and hungry wolf looking for your blood on a lonely mountain trail, give him or her a slice of white bread and soon after they'll be heading for a bush with toilet roll and a heartfelt request for immodium Yet most domestic dogs will be happy out with a from the table crust of bread. If you really want to piss off a wolf? Feed them a big lump of cheese. They'll go mad for it, but you really don't wanna be cleaning up the result...

Yes if you have a wild dog like doggie, with a wild dogs dentition and digestion that's fine, but a toy dog breed is a functional world away from a wild canid in so many ways. The differences that domestication has introduced can be extreme. Throwing a raw rabbit, fur and all to a working line German Shepard is a world away from throwing same to a small flat faced pug IMHO.

Yes some raw food is good. Just like it is for us humans. A balanced diet even more so, again just like us humans, but and it's a big but I would be of the opinion that aiming for the archaic/stoneage diet as an overall given may not be as advantageous as might appear on cursory glance. Just like in modern humans. Yes it is soooo much better than the chips and pizza diet, but by how much?

I work on the principle that any extreme thinking should be moderated by good sense and observation of your furry mate. If it works for them long term, go with that.

DogsFirst

Yep vaccinations, neurotoxins in flea drops, massive over use of steroids / antibiotics, 7 times the amount if idiopathic diseases (no known cause) and now nutrition sections taught using industry literature due to heavy cash investment resulting in dogs becomming omnivores in the late 80's, veterinary medicine definitely has some major problems.

Re wolf thing, experience while young is vital here, if their mothers didn't eat it the pup won't either. Wolves have a system geared for fresh meat, not surprising dried stale kibble is rejected by his system. So many new chemicals and proteins. Your dog experienced these in the amniotic fluid, mothers milk and first 6 weeks so this stuff is tagged as safe. Experience while young is everything with this.

Yep our DNA has changed massively as we select our partners. I would of thought since domesticatiin 5000 yrs ago dogs (luke cows and sheep) are incredibly inbred, preserving genetics, no study to verify this though. A hand ful of domesticated wolves here and there leading to what we have today.

Dogs will only adapt to this major food change (only in last 50 years) if we let them chose healthy partners, which they're not allowed to do. As vet medicine masks the rest and breeding for external phenotypes (face shape, body size etc) continues, the dogs digestive ability remains unchanged. So what was he 50 years ago before industry info became the norm? A carnivore, needing fresh meat.

We've had thousands of years eating grain and still over 30% of us can't digest gluten, and we've systems adapted to plant protein. Now dogs, carnivorous systems ill adapted to plant material, have been fed ultra high dose cereal in the last 40yrs and we expect it to go down fine. The problem is, due to experience while young, it dies go down so people reckon "he liked it so"

Hard pressed to find a processed food that's better for humans than the fresh ingredients used to make it. Can't think of anything actually! NASA can't even get it right. My moneys on fresh and home made, warts n all.

Graces7

One example from my own experience...

When we took the collie in, some five years ago now, she was being fed on the cheapest tinned food, mixed with water and the cheapest white bread.

Sludge...

She had never seen a bone etc.

Her teeth were brown.

We changed her diet totally and never any problem. To see her tackling a raw turkey back is amazing. Now we mix the feed; home made as we have our own vegetables; all goes into the slow cooker. Same as for us.

It changed how I thought of dog and cat food; previously it was just something to be bought at the supermarket. Maybe we are kind of brainwashed by adverts? we have no TV etc now so have broken free of that.

DogsFirst wrote: »

Yep vaccinations, neurotoxins in flea drops, massive over use of steroids / antibiotics, 7 times the amount if idiopathic diseases (no known cause) and now nutrition sections taught using industry literature due to heavy cash investment resulting in dogs becomming omnivores in the late 80's, veterinary medicine definitely has some major problems.

Re wolf thing, experience while young is vital here, if their mothers didn't eat it the pup won't either. Wolves have a system geared for fresh meat, not surprising dried stale kibble is rejected by his system. So many new chemicals and proteins. Your dog experienced these in the amniotic fluid, mothers milk and first 6 weeks so this stuff is tagged as safe. Experience while young is everything with this.

Yep our DNA has changed massively as we select our partners. I would of thought since domesticatiin 5000 yrs ago dogs (luke cows and sheep) are incredibly inbred, preserving genetics, no study to verify this though. A hand ful of domesticated wolves here and there leading to what we have today.

Dogs will only adapt to this major food change (only in last 50 years) if we let them chose healthy partners, which they're not allowed to do. As vet medicine masks the rest and breeding for external phenotypes (face shape, body size etc) continues, the dogs digestive ability remains unchanged. So what was he 50 years ago before industry info became the norm? A carnivore, needing fresh meat.

We've had thousands of years eating grain and still over 30% of us can't digest gluten, and we've systems adapted to plant protein. Now dogs, carnivorous systems ill adapted to plant material, have been fed ultra high dose cereal in the last 40yrs and we expect it to go down fine. The problem is, due to experience while young, it dies go down so people reckon "he liked it so"

Hard pressed to find a processed food that's better for humans than the fresh ingredients used to make it. Can't think of anything actually! NASA can't even get it right. My moneys on fresh and home made, warts n all.

Draupnir

Our dog has answered all the questions on this for us with his behaviour, previously he would pick at a bowl of dry food over the course of a day and possibly eat 5 to 10 pieces through that day. He never showed any interest in it really.

Since we moved to all fresh food , using DogsFirst advice, he now has an absolute freaker when one of his portions comes out of our freezer, doing somersaults around the kitchen until it goes in the bowl and he then happily devours it all in two or three sittings max.

He has started to recognise meal times, he has improved in terms of energy and appearance and he has reached his ideal weight where previously we were concerned that he was 10% under. We've seen absolutely no diarrhoea issues and in fact he has begun to go less and more regularly.

Just our experience, for anyone reading the thread. Meals are raw meat with rice and lightly steamed veg. Each week we alternate between chicken and beef and add the occasional egg to the mix at random.

SingItOut

david75 wrote: »

is red mills any good does anyone know?

I feed my Jack russel on red mills adult small breed, Its a fantastic food in my opinion. My dog was very underweight from being a picky eater and the red mills is all she will eat now. She is wire haired yet since being fed this her coat is so soft and shiny. My roomate feeds his lab and rottweilerXgerman shepherd on the adult large breed range and their weight and coats are perfect, they also seem to be calmer and less hyperactive. There is more info here red mills leader range

DogsFirst

Draupnir wrote: »

Our dog has answered all the questions on this for us with his behaviour......We've seen absolutely no diarrhoea issues and in fact he has begun to go less and more regularly.......egg to the mix at random.

Behaviour is the first thing you notice, rid of chemicals and antigens the dogs settle almost immediately, lots of vitamins boosting brain function (b vitamins are as effective as ritalin for "curing"hyperactivity in kids......all diet realted). They start to look forward to their food in a way that is not seen in dry fed dogs, or human eating beef flavoured crackers when starving or offered a flame grilled surf n turf.

Next his uncurable symptoms clear up - recurring gastro disorder like you said, skin issues, allergy, teeth in three weeks, brand new soft shiny coat in four.

Less plant protein means smaller, more completely digested stools, pleasure to pick up, and don't stink!! Less salt means less water consumed so less wee.

Egg at random - great stuff. Reading more and more about these random feeding times, seems to be a lot of good science behind it. If you have the same meal times the dogs system gears up for it (like Pavlovs drooling dogs) which creates a belly full of acid awaiting a feed (note your dogs stomach rumbling half hour before feed). Can't remember why that's not the best now..........ahh forget it!!

Draupnir

DogsFirst wrote: »

Behaviour is the first thing you notice, rid of chemicals and antigens the dogs settle almost immediately, lots of vitamins boosting brain function (b vitamins are as effective as ritalin for "curing"hyperactivity in kids......all diet realted). They start to look forward to their food in a way that is not seen in dry fed dogs, or human eating beef flavoured crackers when starving or offered a flame grilled surf n turf.

Next his uncurable symptoms clear up - recurring gastro disorder like you said, skin issues, allergy, teeth in three weeks, brand new soft shiny coat in four.

Less plant protein means smaller, more completely digested stools, pleasure to pick up, and don't stink!! Less salt means less water consumed so less wee.

Egg at random - great stuff. Reading more and more about these random feeding times, seems to be a lot of good science behind it. If you have the same meal times the dogs system gears up for it (like Pavlovs drooling dogs) which creates a belly full of acid awaiting a feed (note your dogs stomach rumbling half hour before feed). Can't remember why that's not the best now..........ahh forget it!!

I think we owe you a huge thank you on behalf of our dog because without having read your posts here I wouldn't have been aware of the option of a fresh food diet. It's also great for us as we now feel as though he is getting what he wants and needs in his meals.

DogsFirst

I didn't line that up!

Draupnir

Genuine thanks, myself and DogsFirst have no affiliation!

westies4ever

I have just started my two westies on a raw diet this week. They were previously on royal canin for westies and then I moved to Burns. My four year old female has recurring allergies and I just cant get rid of them. She had courses of steroids which solved it but as soon as she finished the course, they came back. I was bathing her 3 times a week in malaseb which she hated and was at my wits end. The general consensus was that we were going to have to live with it. I hated the drugs and I know they're sore on a dogs liver so I just didnt want to give them to her anymore.

I did a lot of research on the raw diet which was suggested to me by the lady I got my rescue westie from. It's only been 3 days and I see the dogs a lot calmer and their 'poo' looks fine so far. They are really enjoying it as well.

I'm still a bit nervous to be honest and am finding my way in relation to weighing out their food etc. There seems to be some trial and error involved. All the conflicting opinions is making we a little nervous as well. But, I'm going to give it a try.

Its looking like their main diet will be raw chicken wings/thighs/drumsticks with the skin cut off. In the evening they're getting a small amount of raw beef mince with pureed veg mixed in. I also add a spoonful of cod liver oil and sometimes some crushed nuts (not peanuts). The chicken is always fed under supervision just in case.

Once a week I plan to give them fish - tinned sardines or mackerel probably, some liver and a raw egg.

I'll let you know how I get on.

DogsFirst

Great stuff.

White coated breeds in general suffer more skin (and thus gut, as it is skin too) issues than others, but westies are up there with the toughest once they go wrong, or have been "sensitised" to an allergen. Invariably these are westies growing up consuming either gluten / cooked protein / food additives, ie dry food. While most dogs make a speedy recovery on fresh ingredients two dogs in the last five years stick in my mind as "not quite right" and they are both westies (in different countries). That said, most have recovered well, completely off their tablets etc.

Be brave, keep it up. It can be a hilly road with a lot of tough to explain hiccups but most of the westie forums are massive supporters of fresh, hypoallergenic ingredients.

The meat has to be raw (cooked protein causes issue in dogs, as it does in humans, but more so in dogs. In fact food allergy was first discovered in the 20's by a guy who found he was allergic to cooked fish and not raw - cooking denatures the protein, making it unrecognisable and thus antigenic to the dogs gut lining).

Best stuff at this particular time - raw oily (omega 3) fish like sardines (avoid those in veg oil, certainly in dogs with sensitivities as the high omega 6 in veg oil will ruin the whole effect of the omega 3, which sensitive dogs need in abundance), mackerel (buy whole in 10kg boxes from suppliers, dirt cheap, top protein and oils for sensitive skins (make sure they have been frozen for a few days somewhere along the line, destroys parasites) or herring. Or go to lidl and pick up a few tubs of their high strength fish oil
and put in 3 caps a day into her.

Read Watson 1998 for in depth on skin allergy in dogs and use of fish oil to remedy.

Completely cut out gluten / cooked protein food additives (so crappy pet store treats too). Have to start thinking like a nut allergy....just a little bit sets you back weeks.

Best of luck, you're on the right track. Stick with it. Please post again each week and keep us updated, encourages everyone.

DogsFirst

Also chamomile to help restore sensitive stomach lining, and any other herbal stuff that works for humans. Avoid prescription drugs as much as possible while her system recovers. Sounds very natural but it's what the immune system needs. High dose omega 3 and some calm time, free of allergens, drugs and stress. Could also recommend the four aces (vitamin A, C, E and selenium) for immune recovery but your move to a fresh diet supplies those in abundance. GL.

TooManyDogs

westies4ever wrote: »

All the conflicting opinions is making we a little nervous as well.

I've been feeding raw for about 4 years now but had been researching it for another 2 years before I switched because I hadn't the confidence. I know what you mean about the conflicting opinions, even now I can get my confidence knocked and was recently shredded online (not here!) for the make up of the diet I give my dogs. The way I figure it is that my dogs are healthy on it, poos are grand and crumbly, small and not smelly and my dogs have tons of energy and great muscle tone. I got a blood panel done on my oldest dog recently and all her levels are perfect, you'd think it was my own blood for how proud I was!

I got caught up in the idea that I couldnt possibly balance a diet for my dog because I'm not a vet/canine nutrionist but my hubby pointed out I'm not a dietition yet manage to feed myself, him and our toddler just fine. This led me onto to remembering how much hassle the public health nurses used to give me when they realised we were raising our girl vegetarian. Of course there are unhealthy vegetarian diets out there, but also are there unhealthy omniverous diets but because omniverous is 'normal' in society people don't think twice about cooking for themselves but anything different must need nutition degrees. I think it's the same for dog food, now dry is normal and most people just buy whatever comes to hand assuming because it's normal and common it must be ok. Raw food is the minority so subject to close scrutiny and criticism.

At the end of the day as tk123 said, whatever food your dog does best on is best for your dog!

westies4ever

Thanks guys, I absolutely adore my dogs. I have no children and my husband works away a lot so they are my best friends. I really want to do the best I possibly can for them.

Feeding my female steroids and thus shortening her life just isnt an option. My boy is a very healthy fella but he has some issues with his anal glands and his farts would knock you out! He hasnt farted once since the switch! I've just joined the raw feeding group on yahoo for support and will have a look at the suggested reading.

I'll keep you updated. I really hope I can persevere because I will be honest - I am terrified of doing the wrong thing.

DogsFirst

Like TMD says, it really is as easy as feeding yourself, just a bit more meat.

It's taken a lot of money and some brilliant marketing to get you, your vet and everyone else so confused that you doubt your own ability to feed a dog yourself, and instead hand your dog health over to a billion dollar multi national company with no other interest but to make money. It really is the bottled milk / breast debate all over again, with the same companies in the middle, but that's another post!

Anal glands are from their lack of expression from soft stools. Re curring soft stools are a symptom of too much water in the stool. Cheap plant fibre that is included in dry food to bulk the protein levels to the "required" 24% minimum or whatever they are going with today, bulks the carnivores poo, as it does ours, and it shoots through. THeir systems are already rapid, they don't need it. Fresh food creates smaller harder stools but once they have been popped may need a re visit.

So don't stress - worst that'll happen your dog gets some diarrhoea from an ingredient he's not getting on with. Worst worst case, he will have to go back on his tablets. You can't lose!!

Zulu

How do you ensure you are not over/underfeeding?

DogsFirst

Same as yourself. Get a pair of jeans that fit your dog then try them on him every day. If he doesn't fit into them say in a month you know you need to cut back a bit!!

He should look slim all the time, pup to grandad. That's healthy. In very general you should be able to feel the ribs easily without seeing them. If you look down from above his waist should tuck in behind the ribs as opposed to looking like a gas cylinder!

If he's small stand on your scales and pick him up, but far easier is a cloth measuring tape around the waist (just behind his ribs). Measure his waist and keep an eye. Or get a friend to keep an eye!! You'll know.

And don't be deceived by his increase in appetite for fresh food. That's simply a dog that is looking forward to his dinner. Think of yourself dreaming of mums home cooking after three years of stale, jail food-esque beef flavoured porridge for breakfast lunch and dinner.

The increased water content of fresh food means you should be aiming to feed them 50% more than you feed an adult in dry food, or say 20% of his weight a week. But it's not a science like it is with complete food. It's a natural process with meaty bones here and there reducing their dinner size etc. Big walk, extra dollop! Young pup extra dollop X 2.

westies4ever

From what i've read the general rule is to feed them 2-3% of their body weight daily - more/less etc depending on how active they are. Thats the rule of thumb I'm following at the minute. I'll know in a couple of weeks if thats right or not!

DogsFirst

Yup about that, leaning more to the 3% (or 20% a week), and that's probably on the lean side for non-working adults or young pups. Divide into two feeds and all that. 3 - 4 for pups