My heating system is a disaster

wellboytoo

My heating system is a disaster, and In am trying to get control of it, here is what I have , a 22 years old 3000sqft 3 storey house with underfloor in 900 square foot and conventional rads in the rest, fed from a 1100 litre buffer tank 15 metres away from the house fired by a conventional 950000 btu oil fired boiler, it was fed by a pellet stove but it nearly broke me, gone now.
No rad thermostats, no zoning, I have two hot feeds in from boiler house, but they are crossed somewhere due to an alcoholic plumber and we cant find where. So essentially I only have one feed in.
I have pumped the walls fixed all door and window seals, attic done, but still burning oil like Saddam leaving Kuwait! we only heat the downstairs of the house but the problem is if I leave a rad on and someone uses hot water the system calls for heat and heats the rad as well immaterial to the heating timing.
So what steps next?I am wondering will rad stats fix this problem and will I have to hard wire them back to the boiler house?
Also would it be worth looking at an condensing boiler for this type of system as I have read that the water needs to be relatively cool going back to a condensing boiler?
Complicated I know but any suggestions would be welcome as I do not trust the advice I am getting

MicktheMan

wellboytoo wrote: »

My heating system is a disaster, and In am trying to get control of it, here is what I have , a 22 years old 3000sqft 3 storey house with underfloor in 900 square foot and conventional rads in the rest, fed from a 1100 litre buffer tank 15 metres away from the house fired by a conventional 950000 btu oil fired boiler, it was fed by a pellet stove but it nearly broke me, gone now.
No rad thermostats, no zoning, I have two hot feeds in from boiler house, but they are crossed somewhere due to an alcoholic plumber and we cant find where. So essentially I only have one feed in.
I have pumped the walls fixed all door and window seals, attic done, but still burning oil like Saddam leaving Kuwait! we only heat the downstairs of the house but the problem is if I leave a rad on and someone uses hot water the system calls for heat and heats the rad as well immaterial to the heating timing.
So what steps next?I am wondering will rad stats fix this problem and will I have to hard wire them back to the boiler house?
Also would it be worth looking at an condensing boiler for this type of system as I have read that the water needs to be relatively cool going back to a condensing boiler?
Complicated I know but any suggestions would be welcome as I do not trust the advice I am getting

First off, why don't you trust the advice you are getting, is it independent?

If I were you I would tackle the problem in two steps.
1. Understand how your house is losing its heat and reduce this loss where possible. Have you had an airtightness test done or other type of heat loss survey?
2. Next get proper advice regarding your heating system which should involve relocating the boiler, proper distribution efficiency including good control, emitter type etc.

Pm sent.

wellboytoo

I don't trust plumbers at this stage full stop as they have sold me what they want to fit to date, not what is best for my situation.
I have not had the survey you mention done as yet, as I feel it is premature until I fix my heating system, but will look at it again in light of your comments tks.

gdavis

great to see ur not letting one bad experience cloud ur judgement on all plumbers!!!!

wellboytoo

gdavis wrote: »

great to see ur not letting one bad experience cloud ur judgement on all plumbers!!!!

It is six different plumbers over twelve years! I am in the building trade and I have always found plumbers to be the most conservative and slow to move of any of the trades.

don't shoot the messenger Guy, you do not know the back story

gdavis

well,personally speaking,as a slow and conservative plumber,i believe that there are,in every trade as in every jobs sector,both good,bad,and indifferent levels of quality workmanship and knowledge of ones work.I have found that cream usually rises to top and usually u dont have to look to hard to find quality as they come with reccommendations through word of mouth from reputable source.maybe u are very unlucky! but i dont know that you have gone about solving your problems the right way by declaring your feelings towards plumbers.just my opinion,hope u get sorted GUY.

wellboytoo

gdavis wrote: »

well,personally speaking,as a slow and conservative plumber,i believe that there are,in every trade as in every jobs sector,both good,bad,and indifferent levels of quality workmanship and knowledge of ones work.I have found that cream usually rises to top and usually u dont have to look to hard to find quality as they come with reccommendations through word of mouth from reputable source.maybe u are very unlucky! but i dont know that you have gone about solving your problems the right way by declaring your feelings towards plumbers.just my opinion,hope u get sorted GUY.

So now we know you can be a smart guy and patronising, have you any thing positive to add or is your nose just out of joint because I have had a bad experience with a trade on one particular job? Grow up and say nothing if you have nothing to say.

gdavis

you just said it yourself."a bad experience on one particular job".My point is simply that I dont know how much help u will get on here while stating your feelings towards plumbers.We are all entitled to our opinions and that is mine for what its worth.Now im off to grow up

mark_18tp

sounds like a nightmare alrite.
so your burning a lot of oil? ok. why is this because.
a. you system is calling heat to heat the hot water and it heats the rads at the same time, that is either a plumbing or electrical issue. if you dont have the pellet boiler anymore i would get rid of the buffer tank. and just have a boiler zoned for hot water and heating upstairs and downstairs if possible
b. if you do away with the buffer tank install condensing boiler this works well with underfloor heating due to the low operating tempertures

wellboytoo

mark_18tp wrote: »

sounds like a nightmare alrite.
so your burning a lot of oil? ok. why is this because.
a. you system is calling heat to heat the hot water and it heats the rads at the same time, that is either a plumbing or electrical issue. if you dont have the pellet boiler anymore i would get rid of the buffer tank. and just have a boiler zoned for hot water and heating upstairs and downstairs if possible
b. if you do away with the buffer tank install condensing boiler this works well with underfloor heating due to the low operating tempertures

Yes in answer to A it is a plumbing issue, one I will have to trace, or replace completely.
B. is the buffer a waste of time with anything other than pellet then, ?
thanks for that

mark_18tp

yes the buffer is for the pellet only and is really useless when it comes to an oil boiler. the buffer is because the pellet is slower to warm up then the oil.
if it was me i would find the main pipes coming into the house and split them either make 2 or zones and that will make all heat better and more efficently
prob need zones for the underfloor, rads downstairs, rads upstairs and hot water only.
a bit of work and prob have to lift a few floor boards and dig a few pipes but would be well worth it.
even put trvs on the rads also. and a room stats and cylinder stats etc.

mark_18tp

so you could just have an external condensing oil boiler to the side of the house and have to two main pipes into the house and then make up a low loss header and split all your zones in an ultitly room or something handy.

para45

mark_18tp wrote: »

yes the buffer is for the pellet only and is really useless when it comes to an oil boiler. the buffer is because the pellet is slower to warm up then the oil.
if it was me i would find the main pipes coming into the house and split them either make 2 or zones and that will make all heat better and more efficently
prob need zones for the underfloor, rads downstairs, rads upstairs and hot water only.
a bit of work and prob have to lift a few floor boards and dig a few pipes but would be well worth it.
even put trvs on the rads also. and a room stats and cylinder stats etc.

Sorry i am not a plummer but quite fancy the idea of a buffertank! I dont have a buffertank myself and would like one in the future when i hook up solar panels? Maybe not a good idea dont know

Would he not benifit keeping the buffer tank with a thermostat so he always has hot water and hooking it up with the system like you said in the utility room .
...............so you could just have an external condensing oil boiler to the side of the house and have to two main pipes into the house and then make up a low loss header and split all your zones in an ultitly room or something handy...........................

If he down the line hooks up solar panels would the use of the buffertank not be utulised even better maybe not so much now but more of usage in the longter . Like i said I am not a plummer and you r explenation of pellet boiler not heating up so quick sounds like the reason for only having it for a wood pellet as you explained . but if you using the energy to heat up anything might you not do it to just top up the hotwater on a thermostat and have it on demand also as more for the future if your man uses solar pannels .

Thank you . This interest me a lot and sorry for all the questions

illionman

I am not a plumber and I am new to the forum but I have learned quite a bit about plumbing from plumbers down the years. To answer your question, I don't think rad stats will fix your problem and I wouldn't hard wire anything back to the boiler house. Keep all of the wiring indoors.
You say you have a 950000 btu boiler, I assume you mean a 95,000 btu boiler and I would suggest that your boiler might be on the small side for the size of house. If this is the case you will find that it has to run constantly to heat the house. You should also check what temperature the boiler stat is set at. Plumbers will tell you that boilers are more efficient above 75 degrees. Also you should check that the correct nozzle is fitted and have the boiler serviced. I would agree with getting rid of the buffer tank as suggested previously and this should be easy to do. However, check that this wasn't installed just for the underfloor heating (maybe that's why there are two hot feeds coming from boiler house) Underfloor heating requires water at 30 - 40 degrees whereas radiators and hot water require water much hotter, say above 70 degrees. You say that when you use hot water the boiler comes on when timer is not calling for heat. This is likely to be an electrical fault but you should be able to investigate it by say tracing the cable from the stat in the hot press. It could be powering the boiler directly. You should turn this down to the lowest setting for a period or even disconnect the wiring from it completely and see what happens (beware of live wires). I definitely would not go out and buy a condencing boiler or any other boiler until you solve your plumbing issue. The boiler you have is most likely OK. Zoning and heating controls would benefit you but try and understand your plumbing first.
Switch off all radiators and hot water for a period and see how long your boiler runs for the underfloor heating and then switch it off and run your radiators and see how they perform. How much do you spend on oil in a year - Last year should be around €2,500 if you had no other heat source.

EHP

I am an electrician and plumber, the info below I hope will help and is based on my own experiences.

A 20yr old 3000sq foot house with average insulation will require a boiler with at least 33kw output and up to 40kw output, the boiler you have is only 27kw. The buffer in my opinion is an advantage if used right. The boiler needs to be called to heat this with a decent temp difference ie buffer cools to 50deg boiler comes on and heats to 75deg boiler off. You need to split the heating lines coming across so as to make sure you can mix the underfloor hot line down to around 38-40 deg and run this zone seperate to the rads. The lines coming across should be checked with regards to there insulation levels. I assume there is a cylinder in the house for the dhw and if so there is a stat on this which calls for heat when the cylinder requires and this is probaly why the rads heat when you use dhw, again this line needs to be split up so you can heat the dhw without heating the rads. Rad stats will not fix this issue for you but I think are better than wall stats when the system is working properly.

para45

EHP

You sound like the type of man that everybody wants to have as a mate or in their black book on speed dail.

I always said that in my nxt life i want to come back as a electrician and a plummer .

Thats why i always like the idea of a buffer tank it makes sense to always have water on a certain tempreture so not to have your boiler working to hard to get to required tempreture when the thermostats call for the boiler .

What part of the country are you in if you dont mind me asking . Thank you

BostonB

The buffer tank could be solar heated I assume too. I saw some system on TV that had some solar input with the boiler I assume it was to do something like that.

para45

ye i first saw the concept of buffer tanks in somebodys house where they had 2 * 1500L buffer tanks that were used to dump hot water in them from the solar panel and then the boiler use to top up any diffrence or when needed .

Thats why i also posted my question to see if anybody else done it also . The person thats house i was at says it works like a dream .

It all Makes a lot of sense

EHP

para45 wrote: »

EHP

You sound like the type of man that everybody wants to have as a mate or in their black book on speed dail.

I always said that in my nxt life i want to come back as a electrician and a plummer .

Thats why i always like the idea of a buffer tank it makes sense to always have water on a certain tempreture so not to have your boiler working to hard to get to required tempreture when the thermostats call for the boiler .

What part of the country are you in if you dont mind me asking . Thank you

based in north cork near mallow.

EHP

para45 wrote: »

ye i first saw the concept of buffer tanks in somebodys house where they had 2 * 1500L buffer tanks that were used to dump hot water in them from the solar panel and then the boiler use to top up any diffrence or when needed .

Thats why i also posted my question to see if anybody else done it also . The person thats house i was at says it works like a dream .

It all Makes a lot of sense

I have installed 5 systems with combined solar/pellet, oil and solid fuel all 5 happy and all 5 willing to let people see the jobs of course 1 of these is for my uncle and the other is my own house.

para45

ye the house that i saw that set up in with the buffers is also in the same trade as you and distributes/ supplies all these kind of products . I always say have a look at the lads that are top in their trades and then see what they use . If its good for them then its good for me .

Damm murphys law the good lads always reside in the peoples republic of Cork thats not convenient to me hahahahah