Builder wont provide Engineers Report on attic conversion- what to do?

sickpuppy32

Firstly, I know I should never have given the builder the last payment before the my attic conversion was finished but he'd the gift of the gab and pleaded with me that he needed it or wouldn't be able to finsih the job. He finished the job alright but when i called him about the engineers report he demanded 1500 quid more to give it to me. I correctly told him where to stuff it. My question is what to do now? I've insured the attic conversion as a third bedroom but is that void without the engineers report? Also builder told me I didn't need planning permission and i've found out i do so how much of an issue is that? Can anyone recommend an enginner?

Poor Uncle Tom

Retention planning permission will cost you more than getting planning permission before conversion. As part of a retention planning application I've seen where the Building Control Officer will ask for a Certificate of Compliance with Building Regulations to be got as a condition of the planning permission.

You would be best advised to get an Architectural Technician/Architect/Engineer/other competent professional in to give you on-site advice at this stage.

Also, since you have no planning permission, I would question the validity of any insurance cover on the unauthorised development area.

sickpuppy32

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't there a gray area with attic conversions, if it was used as an office for example, would it still need planning permission?

Bullseye1

What square footage is the attic conversion and is it habitable space as described in the Building Regulations?

sickpuppy32

its about 10 ft by 12 ft. it has a radiator and a velux and is mostly used for storage at moment. but i do sometimes dwell there reading a book. I dont know if that would class as a habitable space. If I suspect the builder hasn't complied with the regulations for a habitable space, is it by default a non-habitable space? Should i call the insurers and reclassify it as a warm storage area and then apply to the council to convert it to a habitable space?

Poor Uncle Tom

First of all, don't panic.

You really need to get someone in who will advise you what to do. You mentioned a velux window, you may have required planning permission for this alone.

The general guidance regarding attic conversions is this.

1. If you have a new house where a condition of the planning permission states that the dwelling should be built in accordance with the plans submitted, this means you need planning permission to convert the attic to habitable space, (it's a potential revenue earner for the LA).

2. If your house is older than this you can convert the attic space once there are no outward changes, no roof windows, (even on the back due to a recent Bord Pleanala case).

That is the situation regarding Planning Permission. It is a whole different situation regarding the Building Regulations.

That is why I say you are best to get an expert in to advise you.

Carlow52

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

no roof windows, (even on the back due to a recent Bord Pleanala case).

PUT, were they in the line of the roof or otherwise?

OP:

Before you go on with this why don't you tell a bit more about exactly what u got done.

10 by 12 and a rad and a velox is not enough to work with:

How many storeys in the house, including attic?
How is the attic accessed: full stairs, or wha?
what is the height profile of the attic?
Is there a door?
where is velux: front back side?
this may help
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1657,en.pdf

Poor Uncle Tom

Carlow52 wrote: »

PUT, were they in the line of the roof or otherwise?

I'll find it and let you know.

sickpuppy32

How many storeys in the house, including attic?
How is the attic accessed: full stairs, or wha?
what is the height profile of the attic?
Is there a door?
where is velux: front back side?
this may help

it has three stories now including attic with a full stairs access.
The height is roughly 8 - 10 ft and i've a fire door in it.
The velux is at the back and is at a height and size that a person can exit from it in an emergency.

Hope this helps and thanks for the advice lads

Carlow52

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

it has three stories now including attic with a full stairs access.
The height is roughly 8 - 10 ft and i've a fire door in it.
The velux is at the back and is at a height and size that a person can exit from it in an emergency.

Hope this helps and thanks for the advice lads

Okay, cannot comment on whether u need planning but I would encourage you to read carefully the leaflet in the earlier link.

This piece from it caught my attention and seems relevant

CONVERTING EXISTING ROOF SPACE OF TWO STOREY HOUSE IN TO HABITABLE ACCOMMODATION
IF YOUR CONVERSION
• Doesn’t involve raising the roof-line above the existing ridge
• Is 50 square metres or less
• Has no more than two habitable rooms
THEN
• you may use these fire safety provisions.

1 Enclose the existing stairway with fireresisting walls or partitions
2 Extend fire-resisting enclosure to a Final exit (such as the front door)
OR
Give access to two escape routes at ground level, separated by fire-resisting construction

3 New stairs to comply with Building Regulations guidance on stairways, including
Maximum 42 degree pitch
Minimum 220 mm going
Maximum 220 mm rise
Minimum 1900 mm headroom
Minimum 800 mm wide
Other guidance may be found in TGD to Part K
4 Separate the new accommodation from the existing stairway
EITHER
4a Extend the existing enclosure up into the roof space and separate the new rooms from the stairway in fire-resisting construction
OR
4b If the new stairway rises in an existing room, separate it from the room and from the rest of the house by fire-resisting construction and fire door at the top or bottom of the new stairs
5 All new doors to habitable rooms to be self-closing fire doors
6 All glazing in the existing stairway enclosure is to be fixed shut and to be fire-resisting
7a Separate the new storey from the rest of the house by “full 30 minute” fire-resisting construction
AND
7b Ensure the existing first floor is of “modified 30 minute fire resisting standard” or better
8 Each new attic room to have a window or rooflight for escape or rescue. This means:
8a Unobstructed opening minimum 850 mm high and 500 mm wide
8b Any fastenings to be readily openable from the inside
8c Bottom of a window opening to be between 800 and 1100 mm above the floor
8d Bottom of a rooflight opening to be minimum 600 mm above the floor
8e From the eaves to the cill of a dormer window or rooflight the distance to be maximum 1700 mm
8f ground under the window to be clear of any obstructions, to support a ladder safely,
to be big enough to provide a place of safety
8g Provide guarding around any balcony accessed by french window or patio door
9 Provide interconnected mains powered smoke alarms with battery back up at all storey levels
within the stairs enclosure to give an LD3 system or better to BS 5839: 1995.

sickpuppy32

thanks for that

i think i meet most of that criteria

my only concern is the partition wall between the new room and the landing of the new stairs, if it is adequately fireproofed, - i'll have to get an engineer to check that

Carlow52

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

thanks for that

i think i meet most of that criteria

my only concern is the partition wall between the new room and the landing of the new stairs, if it is adequately fireproofed, - i'll have to get an engineer to check that

as recommended earlier u do need some professional advice, however unless the engineer can see what the partition construction is then no go re cert: eg if its plaster board is it [ 9mm/12.5mm ] single or double on x by y timbers etc: u should be in a position to tell.

sickpuppy32

Carlow52 wrote: »

as recommended earlier u do need some professional advice, however unless the engineer can see what the partition construction is then no go re cert: eg if its plaster board is it [ 9mm/12.5mm ] single or double on x by y timbers etc: u should be in a position to tell.

From what i can remember its plasterboard either side of a wooden frame- is that considered adequate fire proofing?

Bullseye1

There is a fire board available or double slab with regular plasterboard. But get some professional advice. You may also require fire doors.

sickpuppy32

i intend too but thanks guys, it looks like the builder didn't completely screw me. Hopefully the engineer i get will just be able to sign off on it

mcfc

Hi. Just wondering did you ever get sorted with the building certificate?
if so can you recommend an engineer?
thanks