Anaerobic Digesters

darragh_haven

Just wondering has anyone looked into anaerobic digesters in ireland. They are massive business in Germany but that is due to the Tarrif, and they are becoming big in Northern Ireland (again due to the tarrif, ROC system).
There has been a lot in the farmers journal over the last 5 or 6 weeks.
Does anyone think the irish government will introduce a higher tarrif, maybe 18 or 20 cent per Kwh in the medium term future (3-5 years). Is there any interest out there for this?

bob charles

as of now forget it, and I cant see the Gov doing much to help in the short term, figures just dont stack up unless you are a serious user of energy on the farm itself or placed right beside a energy user. Biggest problem I see in Ireland is the "diet" for the digester. Energy crops just cant be grown cheaply enough to use in digester, if one then says go down the grass route energy demands just to harvest grass are very high in Ireland. As of now a wide berth but keep observing the plants currently operating in Ireland which there are few.

reilig

darragh_haven wrote: »

Just wondering has anyone looked into anaerobic digesters in ireland. They are massive business in Germany but that is due to the Tarrif, and they are becoming big in Northern Ireland (again due to the tarrif, ROC system).
There has been a lot in the farmers journal over the last 5 or 6 weeks.
Does anyone think the irish government will introduce a higher tarrif, maybe 18 or 20 cent per Kwh in the medium term future (3-5 years). Is there any interest out there for this?

I did some study on them in College a few years back. Went on a field trip to Belgium and Holland and saw a few in operation.

There have been a few threads here about them, but in fairness, people just don't know enough about them. Many believe that they will solve the nitrates problem In irish Agriculture by reducing the amount of slurry which is land spread. The very opposite is the case. People have to realise that these digestors need to be "fed" specific types of food such as maze or grass along with small amounts of slurry or sewerage. There still is a waste product which has a high Nitrate value.

They are also location specific. For example, areas in ireland which have large pig or fowl farms such as Cavan or Monaghan, don't have the land or the climate to grow crops required by the digestor for economical gas production. Areas that are able to grow the crops required by the digestor are usually areas that don't have huge supplies of slurry.

I don't know if digestors are the solution to Ireland's Energy Shortage or to Irish Agriculture's waste problems. They could turn out to be very expensive white elephants.

In this economic climate when electricity inputs and prices are at an all time high, governments may be reluctant to introduce higher tarrifs for projects like these. There may be better ways of investing to give a more reliable and cheaper energy return. The one thing that we have in Ireland is Weather and rain. We also have a huge number of rivers which drain the landscape and flow into the sea through esturies. In the UK, they have already started to tap into these rivers and esturies for power generation and we need to think about following suit.

Just my twopence opinion. I feel that if we need to give a higher grant to anaerobic digestors then we might always have to make this grant payable to them, and ultimately the consumer will have to pay for it.

darragh_haven

reilig wrote: »

Just my twopence opinion. I feel that if we need to give a higher grant to anaerobic digestors then we might always have to make this grant payable to them, and ultimately the consumer will have to pay for it.

I know in Northern Ireland that big industry is ultimatly paying for it (Oil companies, etc) that produce vast amounts of carbon directly or indirectly. The ROC (renewable obligation cert) is more or less a carbon credit and the carbon producers have to pay for the production of greener, renewable energies.

I would hope it may become viable in the near future as its the type of "farming" i would love to do. I have been in germay for 6 months working on these type plant for the second half of 2010, and it was this that sparked my interest. The only real difference between feeding an AD plant in Germand and Northern Ireland is the feedstock. Maize silage in Germany, Grass Silage in Northern Ireland.

blue5000

Interesting quote here from a previous AD thread by Darragh

I work with a German Anaerobic Digestion company that is building AD plants in Northern Ireland and deal with all types of farm feedstock. There is also a guy up in northern Ireland with an anaerobic digester on his large scale pig Farm.... PM me if any of this is useful to you.

It would need a lot of gov help to get this off the ground, I reckon there are a couple of problems;

1. Seasonality, cattle slurry afaik is the best for AD, cattle are only in for 5 months approx.
2. Scale of farms here.
3. Insecurity, if a farmer borrows say 1m e to build one, he gets a grant etc and a guarantee that he'll get say 25 cent a kwh for electricity from esb. What happens when semi-state monopoly esb pulls the plug?
4. Maize in this country wouldn't be a very reliable feedstock, grass I don't know anything about it as a feedstock, think someone from Cork published a paper on it 2-3 years back.

corkoian

I've done extensive research into Anaerobic Digestion and believe ye are looking at this the wrong way. Yes we need higher feed-in tariffs from the government for it to be viable which hopefully wont be too far down the road.
If you look at the Uk as your model rather than Germany you get a clear picture, yes Germany has more experience with the technology but the Uk has already done the hard work for us. They have taken the German mode and adapted it to suit there climate and resources.

The most interesting and most viable option I've seen for AD is brown bin waste mixed with slurry. If your a farmer in close proximity to other animal based farms you can get them to sign an agreement the leave you take there slurry and return it after.

Apart from the paper work, regulation and all the drivel the neighbouring farmer would be only delighted to give you the slurry because they are getting back a slurry with very little solids in it meaning it needs little or no agitation, little or no smell so easier to spread in heavily populated area, higher nutrient values per a gallon and no water. Given the nature of the slurry the farmer can put the slurry out lighter and the take up for the plants is faster due to the lower solids.

That's the slurry side of things sorted, next is other feed stocks. In my opinion, growing a crop for AD is a very/most expensive feed stocks for a plant. Every hotel, restaurant, cáfe, bakery, supermarket and food related factory have brown bin waste that they pay to dispose of. Under the 2020 Kyoto we have to reduce the amount of bio-degradable waste that goes to land fill and on top of this land fill prices are surging so these industries are looking for a new way to dispose of there waste.

In my opinion, a supermarket chain could be the most reliable source of waste as its less likely to go broke, close or any other way your waste stream would seize to exist provided you can convince a supermarket to come on board.

A 1MW Anaerobic Digester would cost about €4.5m with a feed in of slurry and silage. This would provide a income of around 1.7m a year with a 4 to 5 year pay back. For that you need good quality silage in large quantities, which, if you get a summer like this years, your in big big trouble. Silage seems like a reliable feed stuff but its actually very volatile.

A 1MW Anaerobic Digester that accepts food wastes requires additional equipment and a large sealed shed to with hold smells stuff so the total cost of a AD plant this size accepting food waste is nearly €7m but as well as the €1.7m income you have to electricity sold to the grid, you have "gate fees" which is what the waste suppliers pay you to dispose of there waste. This increases the income to around 2.3m - 2.5m per year. With the second option you have a more secure feed stock presuming you sign a suitable length of a contract with the supermarket.

With both options you have compost produced which can be just spread on the land or sold to garden centres or bagged and be another branch of the business.

The Uk company that is spearheading all this is BiogenGreenfinch (www.biogen.co.uk)

There is other methods of using the methane other than burning the gas to produce electricity for the grid that are as profitable or even more profitable than the latter.

Any way I'll leave it at that as i know no one will probably go to the effort of reading this. If you have any more questions ill be happy to answer them (All incomes were based on the ROI having same REFIT tariffs as NI) To anyone that read it, thanks for reading

Markcheese

Thanks Corkoian, sounds like a no brainer for the waste collection industry but can't imagine planning being easy to get...I think there's a town in scandanavia that uses slaughter house waste( stomach contents ect. ) and brown bin waste in a digester,

bob charles

corkoian wrote: »

I've done extensive research into Anaerobic Digestion and believe ye are looking at this the wrong way. Yes we need higher feed-in tariffs from the government for it to be viable which hopefully wont be too far down the road.
If you look at the Uk as your model rather than Germany you get a clear picture, yes Germany has more experience with the technology but the Uk has already done the hard work for us. They have taken the German mode and adapted it to suit there climate and resources.

The most interesting and most viable option I've seen for AD is brown bin waste mixed with slurry. If your a farmer in close proximity to other animal based farms you can get them to sign an agreement the leave you take there slurry and return it after.

Apart from the paper work, regulation and all the drivel the neighbouring farmer would be only delighted to give you the slurry because they are getting back a slurry with very little solids in it meaning it needs little or no agitation, little or no smell so easier to spread in heavily populated area, higher nutrient values per a gallon and no water. Given the nature of the slurry the farmer can put the slurry out lighter and the take up for the plants is faster due to the lower solids.

That's the slurry side of things sorted, next is other feed stocks. In my opinion, growing a crop for AD is a very/most expensive feed stocks for a plant. Every hotel, restaurant, cáfe, bakery, supermarket and food related factory have brown bin waste that they pay to dispose of. Under the 2020 Kyoto we have to reduce the amount of bio-degradable waste that goes to land fill and on top of this land fill prices are surging so these industries are looking for a new way to dispose of there waste.

In my opinion, a supermarket chain could be the most reliable source of waste as its less likely to go broke, close or any other way your waste stream would seize to exist provided you can convince a supermarket to come on board.

A 1MW Anaerobic Digester would cost about €4.5m with a feed in of slurry and silage. This would provide a income of around 1.7m a year with a 4 to 5 year pay back. For that you need good quality silage in large quantities, which, if you get a summer like this years, your in big big trouble. Silage seems like a reliable feed stuff but its actually very volatile.

A 1MW Anaerobic Digester that accepts food wastes requires additional equipment and a large sealed shed to with hold smells stuff so the total cost of a AD plant this size accepting food waste is nearly €7m but as well as the €1.7m income you have to electricity sold to the grid, you have "gate fees" which is what the waste suppliers pay you to dispose of there waste. This increases the income to around 2.3m - 2.5m per year. With the second option you have a more secure feed stock presuming you sign a suitable length of a contract with the supermarket.

With both options you have compost produced which can be just spread on the land or sold to garden centres or bagged and be another branch of the business.

The Uk company that is spearheading all this is BiogenGreenfinch (www.biogen.co.uk)

There is other methods of using the methane other than burning the gas to produce electricity for the grid that are as profitable or even more profitable than the latter.

Any way I'll leave it at that as i know no one will probably go to the effort of reading this. If you have any more questions ill be happy to answer them (All incomes were based on the ROI having same REFIT tariffs as NI) To anyone that read it, thanks for reading

May I ask who are you working for?

There isn't that much brown bin waste to be dealt with in Ireland. AD plants won't survive in Ireland if one of the feed stuffs has to be maize, they also won't work well just using slurry and brown bin waste. I think your salesman slant of there being a very good market for everything that is produced by an AD plant is way wide of the mark. Do you not think that AD thinking has being superseded

darragh_haven

I used to work for an anaerobic digestion company until about 6 weeks ago. While i still have a good interest in it, there is really no point in chasing this up in the Republic of Ireland.
as bob said, even if you are looking at the brown bin side of things, there just isnt enough tonnage in a compact area needed to run even a 500kw plant (under 500kw gets a better tarrif, still not enough tho.) The other problem is that AD plants need a regular feed stock. not one type of waste today, and another type tomorrow, the bugs will just not cope with constant changes of diet.
as far as a solely agri based one goes... it doesnt. But do a P. Quinn on it and head north of the border and you talking a profitable business on even a grass based system.
And i couldn't be further from there in west cork..... (self pity rant over):p

johngalway

darragh_haven wrote: »

The other problem is that AD plants need a regular feed stock

Seaweed?

bob charles

darragh_haven wrote: »

I used to work for an anaerobic digestion company until about 6 weeks ago. While i still have a good interest in it, there is really no point in chasing this up in the Republic of Ireland.
as bob said, even if you are looking at the brown bin side of things, there just isnt enough tonnage in a compact area needed to run even a 500kw plant (under 500kw gets a better tarrif, still not enough tho.) The other problem is that AD plants need a regular feed stock. not one type of waste today, and another type tomorrow, the bugs will just not cope with constant changes of diet.
as far as a solely agri based one goes... it doesnt. But do a P. Quinn on it and head north of the border and you talking a profitable business on even a grass based system.
And i couldn't be further from there in west cork..... (self pity rant over):p

What do you think of Thermophilic Aerobic Digestion, Darragh?

corkoian

bob charles wrote: »

May I ask who are you working for?

There isn't that much brown bin waste to be dealt with in Ireland. AD plants won't survive in Ireland if one of the feed stuffs has to be maize, they also won't work well just using slurry and brown bin waste. I think your salesman slant of there being a very good market for everything that is produced by an AD plant is way wide of the mark. Do you not think that AD thinking has being superseded

I'm not working for anyone, im a 17 year old farmers son who has researched AD for the last 2 to 3 year and been in contact with various AD companies trying to research as much as possible about the system. All the information i know about AD is from my own research!
Using slaughter house waste is another option of feed stock but your opening your self to a whole new level of regulations
As for the problem with lack of food waste, Mr.Binman collects 300 tonnes of brown bin waste a month and im sure they only operate in the muster region. It is viable to use food waste from an 120km radius.
There is a AD plant in Ballytoban Co. Killkenny operating successfully for the record.
Maize does not need to be a feed stock for it to operate!!!! There was a proposal for all biodegradable waste to be sent to a composting facility. This proposal was put forward by a minister (whos name slips my mind) if this happened there would be plenty of brown bin waste from county councils grass clippings, general household waste etc. The problem with AD isn't feedstock its just the tariffs.
I have done serious research into this as a future for my family farm as i wouldnt be able to handed the fluctuating milk price and the tight margins.

Dont be daft

corkoian wrote: »

I'm not working for anyone, im a 17 year old farmers son who has researched AD for the last 2 to 3 year and been in contact with various AD companies trying to research as much as possible about the system. All the information i know about AD is from my own research!
Using slaughter house waste is another option of feed stock but your opening your self to a whole new level of regulations
As for the problem with lack of food waste, Mr.Binman collects 300 tonnes of brown bin waste a month and im sure they only operate in the muster region. It is viable to use food waste from an 120km radius.
There is a AD plant in Ballytoban Co. Killkenny operating successfully for the record.
Maize does not need to be a feed stock for it to operate!!!! There was a proposal for all biodegradable waste to be sent to a composting facility. This proposal was put forward by a minister (whos name slips my mind) if this happened there would be plenty of brown bin waste from county councils grass clippings, general household waste etc. The problem with AD isn't feedstock its just the tariffs.
I have done serious research into this as a future for my family farm as i wouldnt be able to handed the fluctuating milk price and the tight margins.

Mr. Binman is in recievership because of an AD plant. Two other projects I know of that were abandoned at the planning stage after significant costs being incurred by investers. I know of one invester that pulled out of an AD project and invested in agricultural land instead.
This is the difference between research and the reality on the ground. AD is wonderful concept and I'd only love for it to be viable but I dont think it is.

The tariff can be held up as the problem but thats more than the flick of a pen to change. It would take a major policy change in government. The Irish government both local and national has seen wind as Ireland's renewable energy solution.
In terms of carbon footprint its miles ahead of AD and this will always be the case. Its only right that it would command a tariff above non-renewable and renewables such as AD.
Add to this the fact that if the AD tariff is raised and an AD plant becomes a "no-brainer" then more and more land will be taken up therefore limiting the developement of agriculture. Considering that we are a low carbon agri industry its not something Brussels would like to see happen.

Brown bin waste is the only real viable option that I can see but farmers arent best placed to jump onto this opportunity, it'll be the waste disposal companies. Like I said some have already tried and have paid heavily for it but I wouldn't rule out legislation making it compulsory to send all brown bin waste to an AD facility somewere down the line.

The day I hear of a Private Renewable Energy Company setting up AD plants in piggeries or large-scale farms I might be inclined to look at it again. Till then, as someone here said, its a white elephant.

kevthegaff

What about bones and waste from factories, can they be used. Are you losing p+k values after the digestion. Dont know much about them

darragh_haven

bob charles wrote: »

What do you think of Thermophilic Aerobic Digestion, Darragh?

this operates at 55 to about 58 degrees celcius. it is seen as a more volitle process that the systems that work at 40 to 43 degrees. Thermophilic is generally senn as more difficult to keep operating at its optimum. The bugs in it can shut down without warning if everything isnt perfect.
The systems that operate at 40 to 43 degrees are simply explained as a big cows stomach,,, if you take the care in feeding a cow a regular feed, you could transfer that expertise to feeding one of these digesters (currently feeding the cow is a lot more profitable)
As someone above mentioned... Seaweed. This and alge have been proposed, but i think the cost in harvesting this for an anerobic digester might be prohibitive (altho i have no idea of the cost per tonne)
Peter Young on the IFJ has a few articles ove the last 3 or 4 weeks about AD, he outlines most of the issues.

red bull

A 2m€ plant has got planning permission on the old sugar factory site in Tuam. I think they propose to use sugar beet as energy as opposed to maize. I have seen a number of these plants in opperation in Austria and Holland very good results but I understand they got grants for alternative sources of energy

bob charles

red bull wrote: »

A 2m€ plant has got planning permission on the old sugar factory site in Tuam. I think they propose to use sugar beet as energy as opposed to maize. I have seen a number of these plants in opperation in Austria and Holland very good results but I understand they got grants for alternative sources of energy

They aint going to build much of a digester with only €2m capital. If some one can bring forward a plan and construct an AD plant much cheaper than it currently costs then we maybe onto something.

I have taught about it as I have 3000t annum of liquid waste but I would need a hell of allot of biomass (maize/grass) to mix in with that, and at the moment things are far from stacking up. I will keep my ears and eyes open as it will offer potential in the future. Gate fees would want to be under €40 a ton to make it attractive, and at this price there will be competition to drive the price down, also planning to accept outside waste is a completely different ball game.

red bull

Sorry digit missing €20m

F.D

I think there are companies, devolping smaller ones for farm scale users which are less of an investment but will only really reduce the farm and houses energy requirements, in reality i think this would probably be better as you could fit a system to suit your needs and not be relying on getting payback from the grid for a multimillion euro system
i'm sure i seen one on tv on a college farm in the uk on trial that was been set up, and i think some of the components were supplied by an irish company

keep going

any info on gasification plants

darragh_haven

keep going wrote: »

any info on gasification plants

There is a plant in Newry in the process of being starting up. I know one of the electricians working on it. I think its a 1mw plant working on wood chip. It's supposed to supply electric by middle of this month, but apparently its already had several deadlines......

Toplink

darragh_haven wrote: »

There is a plant in Newry in the process of being starting up. I know one of the electricians working on it. I think its a 1mw plant working on wood chip. It's supposed to supply electric by middle of this month, but apparently its already had several deadlines......

Is that the one Kedco are involved in?

Big pressure to get that over the line I'd imagine. What are all the delays with? Poor Project Management or genuine roadblocks?

darragh_haven

Toplink wrote: »

darragh_haven wrote: »

There is a plant in Newry in the process of being starting up. I know one of the electricians working on it. I think its a 1mw plant working on wood chip. It's supposed to supply electric by middle of this month, but apparently its already had several deadlines......

Is that the one Kedco are involved in?

Big pressure to get that over the line I'd imagine. What are all the delays with? Poor Project Management or genuine roadblocks?

Yeah, kedco were the boyos stuck in it.

Money problems for over a year, then wen funding was secured, it was flat out. The electrician friend of mine was asked to work 7 days a week. (he politely told them to f off) That could be a project management balls up too tho.
I was told it went wildly over budget too, but they had to keep pouring money into it or loose everything.

stock>

Is there not a digester in west Limerick running on chicken liter and cow slurry??
least way heard a rumor to that effect.

Toplink

darragh_haven wrote: »

Yeah, kedco were the boyos stuck in it.

Money problems for over a year, then wen funding was secured, it was flat out. The electrician friend of mine was asked to work 7 days a week. (he politely told them to f off) That could be a project management balls up too tho.
I was told it went wildly over budget too, but they had to keep pouring money into it or loose everything.

Yeah, I'd imagine the adventure on the London AIM is very dependent on getting this off the ground on time and on budget. I suppose the share price doesn't lie.

threeball

stock> wrote: »

Is there not a digester in west Limerick running on chicken liter and cow slurry??
least way heard a rumor to that effect.

Ya that one is run off a chicken farm and a dairy farm. Completely self sufficient in feeding itself. I was talking to the guy whos opening the one in tuam and he was telling me about it as it was the limerick one that prompted him to make the move. The one is Tuam is 2MW and I think the budget is €7m. The hot water will be used to heat alot of the buildings in the adjoining industrial estate.

EpicPothole

bob charles wrote: »

red bull wrote: »

A 2m€ plant has got planning permission on the old sugar factory site in Tuam. I think they propose to use sugar beet as energy as opposed to maize. I have seen a number of these plants in opperation in Austria and Holland very good results but I understand they got grants for alternative sources of energy

They aint going to build much of a digester with only €2m capital. If some one can bring forward a plan and construct an AD plant much cheaper than it currently costs then we maybe onto something.

I have taught about it as I have 3000t annum of liquid waste but I would need a hell of allot of biomass (maize/grass) to mix in with that, and at the moment things are far from stacking up. I will keep my ears and eyes open as it will offer potential in the future. Gate fees would want to be under €40 a ton to make it attractive, and at this price there will be competition to drive the price down, also planning to accept outside waste is a completely different ball game.

Why do you think you couldn't build much of an AD plant for 2 million?. I have a couple of turnkey quotes for agri digesters. 500kw plant coming in between 1.5 and 1.7 million Euro for a proposed plant here in Antrim. Even the 1mw options don't exceed 2 million.
Or am I wrong in thinking a 1mw plant is substantial?

corkoian

EpicPothole wrote: »

Why do you think you couldn't build much of an AD plant for 2 million?. I have a couple of turnkey quotes for agri digesters. 500kw plant coming in between 1.5 and 1.7 million Euro for a proposed plant here in Antrim. Even the 1mw options don't exceed 2 million.
Or am I wrong in thinking a 1mw plant is substantial?

What do you mean by substantial? Like a 2MW plant will be a nice earner but you would need refit tariffs or its not sustainable. What sort of feed stock you looking at?

EpicPothole

corkoian wrote: »

EpicPothole wrote: »

Why do you think you couldn't build much of an AD plant for 2 million?. I have a couple of turnkey quotes for agri digesters. 500kw plant coming in between 1.5 and 1.7 million Euro for a proposed plant here in Antrim. Even the 1mw options don't exceed 2 million.
Or am I wrong in thinking a 1mw plant is substantial?

What do you mean by substantial? Like a 2MW plant will be a nice earner but you would need refit tariffs or its not sustainable. What sort of feed stock you looking at?

Of course it involves tarrifs. It's the ROC system here. 4 roc's totals 22 pence per kw. Work the system that is in place!!..... Not your fingers to the bone....... A 500 kw plant is more that "a nice little earner".
I'm planning to use 80% grass silage, 10% slurry and the other 10% is varible.
I have close to 250 acres under my control and all will produce silage. The rest will be contract grown. I have a piggery supplying the slurry from under 3 miles away.

corkoian

EpicPothole wrote: »

Of course it involves tarrifs. It's the ROC system here. 4 roc's totals 22 pence per kw. Work the system that is in place!!..... Not your fingers to the bone....... A 500 kw plant is more that "a nice little earner".
I'm planning to use 80% grass silage, 10% slurry and the other 10% is varible.
I have close to 250 acres under my control and all will produce silage. The rest will be contract grown. I have a piggery supplying the slurry from under 3 miles away.

All i'd have to say would be to try and get a cheaper feedstock than silage or just reduce the % a bit. Like anyway you could sign a contract with a vegatble farmer and take the veg that isnt "pretty" enough to make it to the shelves in the shops Im not aware of the this is currently being used for, maybe feeding organic pig or something like that Any use for the compost and heat?

bob charles

corkoian wrote: »

Like anyway you could sign a contract with a vegatble farmer and take the veg that isnt "pretty" enough to make it to the shelves in the shops Im not aware of the this is currently being used for, maybe feeding organic pig or something like that

you would have to pay for such material, everything is in demand and could cost €40 a ton. Allot of these feedstuffs that are supposed to be free in the AD theory books actually are being used elsewhere and so have a price.

corkoian

bob charles wrote: »

you would have to pay for such material, everything is in demand and could cost €40 a ton. Allot of these feedstuffs that are supposed to be free in the AD theory books actually are being used elsewhere and so have a price.

Well like silage isn't free either, you have the fertilizer, the renting of the land or in your case you have to pay the guy you have on contract, the harvesting of the silage and worst of all you need the weather on your side and if you get weather like we have had down south this year it could be very hard to harvest over 250 acres of silage :rolleyes: . At least if you reduce the amount of silage in the diet then your less exposed to uncontrollable factors like the weather.

bob charles

corkoian wrote: »

Well like silage isn't free either, you have the fertilizer, the renting of the land or in your case you have to pay the guy you have on contract, the harvesting of the silage and worst of all you need the weather on your side and if you get weather like we have had down south this year it could be very hard to harvest over 250 acres of silage :rolleyes: . At least if you reduce the amount of silage in the diet then your less exposed to uncontrollable factors like the weather.

I know that only too well but some of the feedstuffs that you are saying are an option and available for disposal aren't available for free or there is a serious haulage charge. this changes the whole game. I have around 3000t of free feedstuff (slurry/fym/other) here around 12%dm and AD still isn't viable. In future I see AD as a real threat to beef farming in Ireland. Suppose one can say that maybe for the better

corkoian

bob charles wrote: »

I know that only too well but some of the feedstuffs that you are saying are an option and available for disposal aren't available for free or there is a serious haulage charge. this changes the whole game. I have around 3000t of free feedstuff (slurry/fym/other) here around 12%dm and AD still isn't viable. In future I see AD as a real threat to beef farming in Ireland. Suppose one can say that maybe for the better

I understand that slurry and fym alone wouldnt make the AD viable cause they have low gas yields but does paying for silage to put into it make it viable? Forgive me but i dont see why AD being a threat the Beef maybe for the better?

bob charles

corkoian wrote: »

I understand that slurry and fym alone wouldnt make the AD viable cause they have low gas yields but does paying for silage to put into it make it viable? Forgive me but i dont see why AD being a threat the Beef maybe for the better?

so where the hell is your base feedstuff coming from if grass silage and maize is too dear. could stick beet in but again not cheap. unless you come up with cheap biomass it not a runner.

Have a wee think why AD is a threat to beef finishing

corkoian

bob charles wrote: »

so where the hell is your base feedstuff coming from if grass silage and maize is too dear. could stick beet in but again not cheap. unless you come up with cheap biomass it not a runner.

Have a wee think why AD is a threat to beef finishing

Jees relax, im just trying to help!
If you read my message properly i said i dont understand why it would be for the better. I get why it would affect the beef industry!

darragh_haven

Just to add my 2 cent on the last 6 or 7 posts.
The tarrif being paid in Northern Ireland would make AD plants a big treat to beef farming, and even dairying too. When i was involved with the AD company, there were cases of a farmer selling his 220 milking cows to put up an AD plant, and another case of a fella selling his 160 milking cows to set up his own AD plant.
The reason people are using a high percentage of grass silage, is that if you have most of the required land in your control, it means a constant and stable feedstock
Grass is also the highest producing gas yield per tonne for the lowest cost in the Irish climate. (Maize in Germany).
As for using Veg waste etc (corkoinan), there isn't enough of it available on our island with in a transportable distance to warrant using it. Also the variation in the food waste from day to day could throw the bugs out of sync and shut down your plant.
your turnover for a 500kw plant, running for 8000hrs per year in Norther ireland is approx €1,040,000
the same in the republic is €600,000

bob charles

darragh_haven wrote: »

Just to add my 2 cent on the last 6 or 7 posts.
The tarrif being paid in Northern Ireland would make AD plants a big treat to beef farming, and even dairying too. When i was involved with the AD company, there were cases of a farmer selling his 220 milking cows to put up an AD plant, and another case of a fella selling his 160 milking cows to set up his own AD plant.
The reason people are using a high percentage of grass silage, is that if you have most of the required land in your control, it means a constant and stable feedstock
Grass is also the highest producing gas yield per tonne for the lowest cost in the Irish climate. (Maize in Germany).
As for using Veg waste etc (corkoinan), there isn't enough of it available on our island with in a transportable distance to warrant using it. Also the variation in the food waste from day to day could throw the bugs out of sync and shut down your plant.
your turnover for a 500kw plant, running for 8000hrs per year in Norther ireland is approx €1,040,000
the same in the republic is €600,000

and that above post concludes at present AD is a non runner for 95% of cases. If one was to use the energy yourself I presume the game changes. talking to a boy last week with a esb bill of 150k per year and he was of the conclusion that it still wouldn't pay. I think we should keep researching and be ready to jump if the game changes. Also I don't see AD being any threat land wise to either beef or dairy considering how much super land isn't even in full production.

sthilmick

F.D wrote: »

I think there are companies, devolping smaller ones for farm scale users which are less of an investment but will only really reduce the farm and houses energy requirements, in reality i think this would probably be better as you could fit a system to suit your needs and not be relying on getting payback from the grid for a multimillion euro system
i'm sure i seen one on tv on a college farm in the uk on trial that was been set up, and i think some of the components were supplied by an irish company

Hi there I know it's been a few years but do you know if they got those smaller farmer plants going after be interested in them if it could supply the electricity for a small / medium farm with a 10yr or less pay back

stomper45

Hi I'm involved in selling the slurry only digesters to medium sized farms, mainly up north at the moment due to rocs incentive.

No foodstuff required for the AD can run on slurry only

Water John

This may be of interest. Hope I can get there.

http://www.engineersjournal.ie/2016/07/29/inaugural-energy-in-agriculture-event-set-for-roscrea/

stomper45

Thanks John, will aim to to get there too

macraignil

bob charles wrote: »

and that above post concludes at present AD is a non runner for 95% of cases. If one was to use the energy yourself I presume the game changes. talking to a boy last week with a esb bill of 150k per year and he was of the conclusion that it still wouldn't pay. I think we should keep researching and be ready to jump if the game changes. Also I don't see AD being any threat land wise to either beef or dairy considering how much super land isn't even in full production.

I read a bit about the anaerobic digestion development and reckoned that some sort of productive crop in the Irish climate might be useful. I reckon one of the best would be Jerusalem artichokes. They can be harvested with a potato harvester and stay good in the ground through the winter. Made a video when I first planted some on a larger scale: video

Also found an Irish example of a digester development at: seai video

I think using anaerobic digesters on an Irish farm scale to simply provide heating fuel might be a more viable option. It might be a benefit to any type of farm if applied to improving the amount of nutrients returned to the soil and saving on heating bills.

Markcheese

Think the crowd I work for are investigating AD at the moment.. more to use and stabilise a waste product than just for the energy .. although the gas would be handy to replace kerosene currently used to heat water ...

I don't know does it currently stack up financially (in ireland) to use farmland to grow a crop to digest just for the energy ...
Waste or byproduct ,that's a different story..
And maybe if it was possible to have a perennial crop with low harvesting costs that could be digested efficiently..
I'm sure you could use a high sugar grass..and silage for winter production..
But as to Wether it'd be viable ??

Water John

It will all depend on the REFIT price. Guy in NI puts his third silage cut into it, cows are indoors and has poultry as well.

Some of the dairy boys will be shocked at the sacralige of using a zero grazer.
But the REFIT alters the sums big time, up there.

yosemitesam1

macraignil wrote: »

I read a bit about the anaerobic digestion development and reckoned that some sort of productive crop in the Irish climate might be useful. I reckon one of the best would be Jerusalem artichokes. They can be harvested with a potato harvester and stay good in the ground through the winter. Made a video when I first planted some on a larger scale: video
.

That'd be grand until you facter in the carbon loss from the soil, would probably similar to fossil fuels if there was going to be cultivations.

macraignil

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

That'd be grand until you facter in the carbon loss from the soil, would probably similar to fossil fuels if there was going to be cultivations.

What carbon loss to the soil are you talking about?

If the ground is being cultivated for an energy crop and the nutrient product from the digestion is being returned to the soil there would be no net change in the carbon being stored in that area of ground. The weight of microbial life and organic mater in the soil would on average stay the same or be higher than with some other land uses. The energy crop is taking in carbon dioxide when it is growing often at a faster rate than with other land uses so how is this similar to fossil fuels?

If you wanted to be really environmentally friendly you could do the work with a biogas powered tractor.

I think there should be improved economics to biogas digesters soon with development of fuel cell technology to increase the efficiency in converting biogas to electricity and transport.

yosemitesam1

macraignil wrote: »

What carbon loss to the soil are you talking about?

If the ground is being cultivated for an energy crop and the nutrient product from the digestion is being returned to the soil there would be no net change in the carbon being stored in that area of ground. The weight of microbial life and organic mater in the soil would on average stay the same or be higher than with some other land uses. The energy crop is taking in carbon dioxide when it is growing often at a faster rate than with other land uses so how is this similar to fossil fuels?

If you wanted to be really environmentally friendly you could do the work with a biogas powered tractor.

I think there should be improved economics to biogas digesters soon with development of fuel cell technology to increase the efficiency in converting biogas to electricity and transport.

Cultivations lead to a loss of carbon from the soil and have loads of other negative effects like soil erosion, decline in microbial biomass/activity etc

Waffletraktor

macraignil wrote: »

What carbon loss to the soil are you talking about?

If the ground is being cultivated for an energy crop and the nutrient product from the digestion is being returned to the soil there would be no net change in the carbon being stored in that area of ground. The weight of microbial life and organic mater in the soil would on average stay the same or be higher than with some other land uses. The energy crop is taking in carbon dioxide when it is growing often at a faster rate than with other land uses so how is this similar to fossil fuels?

If you wanted to be really environmentally friendly you could do the work with a biogas powered tractor.

I think there should be improved economics to biogas digesters soon with development of fuel cell technology to increase the efficiency in converting biogas to electricity and transport.

Bio gas from feedstock and not secondary feed via refuse/and crap is purely about extracting as much public subsidy as poosible for pension and hedge funds. The return on C in vs out is awful, most the N is lost unless digestate is made very acidic and the monocultures they grow to feed it are far from healthy soils.

macraignil

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Cultivations lead to a loss of carbon from the soil and have loads of other negative effects like soil erosion, decline in microbial biomass/activity etc

Are you saying all cultivation is bad?

A new planted quick growing crop takes in more carbon dioxide than something that is not growing as fast. This extra carbon dioxide intake would more than balance the carbon dioxide released at the time of cultivation.

The cultivating of soil would lead to increased activity in the microbes in the soil so I could see how there would be an increase in carbon dioxide released while the soil is disturbed. The energy crop would however take in many times this carbon dioxide while it is growing.

Carbon dioxide fixed by photosynthesis in the plant also supports increased microbial activity in the area of the soil around the roots of the crop plant and good cultivation can increase microbial biomass in the soil. I am not talking about recreating the dust bowl in the mid west USA or suggesting poor cultivation practice should be part of energy crop development.

Returning the organic material from the anaerobic digester and the nutrient rich liquid byproduct to the soil could help support a healthy microbial component in the soil that would store as much if not more carbon than many other land use options.

darragh_haven

All the talk of carbin is irrelevant if AD plants are not viable. Which they aren't. No matter what crop is grown for it. Even if you got feedstock for freen its not really viable. A gate fee is needed, and in that case, it means the import of waste. (As is the case of the McDonald plant)