Galway Airport is it closed now?

Stinicker

I drove by Galway airport this afternoon and spotted an Aer Arann in Aer Lingus colours taking off from the Airport. Is there some services after re-commencing or has Aer Arann a maintenance base there or something?

xflyer

Aer Arann still have their maintenance hangar there, however not for long:

http://www.galwaynews.ie/23480-latest-blow-may-signal-kiss-death-airport

It's being closed and maintenance moved to Dublin. Another blow for the viability of the airport in it's present form.

Growler!!!

Aer Arann still have a lease on a maintainance hanger in GWY. The airport does not have sufficient fire crew to cover pax flights however. The aircraft was positioning in for maint.

Johnny901

The level of fire cover is defined by the size of aircraft normally and not whether they carry pax or not.

Jesus Nut

Is there any General Aviation now at all at Galway Airport ? Is the ATC closed and if so has the zone boundry gone?
I wonder if the Galway Flying Club and Executive Helicopters are affected much does anyone know?

xflyer

Yes there has been GA flying in and out. They have the place to themselves at the moment. Both airport and CTR are open between 09:30 to 17:00.

Su Campu

I don't wish to start another debate on this again but what is it like for visiting GA in Galway now? Reports weren't good in the past (I've never been myself so can't comment) but Im wondering what's the latest, now that GA is pretty much all they've got.

It's a real shame a tourist destination like Galway can no longer boast a scheduled air service to its airport.

Irish Steve

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, I would put some of the blame for the absence of activity at Galway directly at the door/feet of the Galway management and owners.

A very long time ago now, I was closely involved with Galway for a good few months, there was going to be a new operator, (before Aer Arran started flying ATR42's), and even then, the attitude of the Galway management at that time was less than helpful, regardless of what was asked, or why, and it didn't improve over time, and that was in the days when it took a long time to drive from Galway to Dublin, and that was on a good day.

Now, it's motorway all the way, and the journey takes a lot less time than it used to, and there's not the problems of delays and the like in the way there was.

In addition, for all sorts of reasons, some of them outside of the airport management's control, Air travel is no longer the pleasure it used to be, the aggravations of getting to and from the airports, check in times, security and the like have all combined to make the experience a lot less pleasant than it used to be.

Galway also suffers from the problems of a short narrow runway, a challenging approach from the west because of the Eircom communications mast at the exchange, and a less than helpful climate that causes diversions and delays. The runway length can limit the load that some aircraft can take out of Galway, or the fuel, so there have to be compromises on some routes, and there are very definite restrictions on the aircraft types that can operate there, jets are not viable, and even the ATR72 is limited, as was the Aer Lingus F50 in it's day. TNT did once put an empty 146 in there, but it was very tight indeed, and operating it with any sort of reasonable load on a regular basis would have been problematic because of the runway width.

The government have reduced or completely cut the PSO funding for Galway, along with other airports, and in some respects, that's not unreasonable, if Galway hasn't succeeded in building a viable operation over the time they had the grant aids, it's unlikely to ever do so, and as mentioned, the road both to Dublin and Shannon has improved massively over the last couple of years.

At one point, Aer Arran had a very busy operation at Galway, and it was their main base, and centre of operations. They've now moved to Dublin, and there have to be reasons for that, and not all of them will be directly related to the recession that's hit all airlines, some of it, for whatever reason, will be related to the relationship with Galway Airport.

We know why Manx2 pulled out, and that had nothing to do with Galway.

That only left Aer Arran, and they've been the only operator to manage to operate from Galway for any length of time, and even they've called it a day now. Maybe things like the "development charge" of €10 for departing adults didn't exactly help, I don't know, what I do know is that when times were a lot harder, and there wasn't the support for Galway Airport that was generated later, it wasn't the friendliest place to try and do business with, for all sorts of reasons. I shall always remember that it was cheaper and simpler to rent an office just down the road but off the airport than it was to have space within the airport boundary, and this was at the time where there was no other commercial operator serving Galway, as both Ryanair and Aer Lingus had stopped their services.

That spoke volumes to me at the time. I'm sure there have been changes over time in key positions, but memories are long in that part of the world, and it's possible that the present people trying to keep it going now are paying the price for the attitude and positions taken by some of their predecessors.

Jesus Nut

Irish Steve wrote: »

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, I would put some of the blame for the absence of activity at Galway directly at the door/feet of the Galway management and owners.

A very long time ago now, I was closely involved with Galway for a good few months, there was going to be a new operator, (before Aer Arran started flying ATR42's), and even then, the attitude of the Galway management at that time was less than helpful, regardless of what was asked, or why, and it didn't improve over time, and that was in the days when it took a long time to drive from Galway to Dublin, and that was on a good day.

Now, it's motorway all the way, and the journey takes a lot less time than it used to, and there's not the problems of delays and the like in the way there was.

In addition, for all sorts of reasons, some of them outside of the airport management's control, Air travel is no longer the pleasure it used to be, the aggravations of getting to and from the airports, check in times, security and the like have all combined to make the experience a lot less pleasant than it used to be.

Galway also suffers from the problems of a short narrow runway, a challenging approach from the west because of the Eircom communications mast at the exchange, and a less than helpful climate that causes diversions and delays. The runway length can limit the load that some aircraft can take out of Galway, or the fuel, so there have to be compromises on some routes, and there are very definite restrictions on the aircraft types that can operate there, jets are not viable, and even the ATR72 is limited, as was the Aer Lingus F50 in it's day. TNT did once put an empty 146 in there, but it was very tight indeed, and operating it with any sort of reasonable load on a regular basis would have been problematic because of the runway width.

The government have reduced or completely cut the PSO funding for Galway, along with other airports, and in some respects, that's not unreasonable, if Galway hasn't succeeded in building a viable operation over the time they had the grant aids, it's unlikely to ever do so, and as mentioned, the road both to Dublin and Shannon has improved massively over the last couple of years.

At one point, Aer Arran had a very busy operation at Galway, and it was their main base, and centre of operations. They've now moved to Dublin, and there have to be reasons for that, and not all of them will be directly related to the recession that's hit all airlines, some of it, for whatever reason, will be related to the relationship with Galway Airport.

We know why Manx2 pulled out, and that had nothing to do with Galway.

That only left Aer Arran, and they've been the only operator to manage to operate from Galway for any length of time, and even they've called it a day now. Maybe things like the "development charge" of €10 for departing adults didn't exactly help, I don't know, what I do know is that when times were a lot harder, and there wasn't the support for Galway Airport that was generated later, it wasn't the friendliest place to try and do business with, for all sorts of reasons. I shall always remember that it was cheaper and simpler to rent an office just down the road but off the airport than it was to have space within the airport boundary, and this was at the time where there was no other commercial operator serving Galway, as both Ryanair and Aer Lingus had stopped their services.

That spoke volumes to me at the time. I'm sure there have been changes over time in key positions, but memories are long in that part of the world, and it's possible that the present people trying to keep it going now are paying the price for the attitude and positions taken by some of their predecessors.

Great post. Thanks.
Interesting point, the development charge. Now Knock Airport also have this charge for outbound commercial flights. Is this legal? It must be, but like, how do they get away with it? I have a pub so mabey should I start a "development charge of €5" on top of every order someone makes at the bar?

Johnny901

Yep, motorway to Dublin and improved road to Shannon seems to have been the reason for the demise of Galway.

There probably is a viable route to London Luton, but with all that is now required to run an airport, a single route could not pay for everything.

When Aer Arann "signed up" with Aer Lingus Regional and started operating out of Shannon, I thought that was the start of the slippery slope for Galway.

ScabbyLeg

What is the reason that the Aran Islands are served from Inverin and not from Galway airport itself?! Seems like madness... particularly when Galway airport is closer to the city itself and has presumably a longer runway, better equipment etc?

Turbo Porter

Irish Steve wrote: »

TNT did once put an empty 146 in there, but it was very tight indeed, and operating it with any sort of reasonable load on a regular basis would have been problematic because of the runway width.

While I agree with the vast majority of what you said regards GWY.I would say it was not quiet that tight getting an empty 146 in there consider I photographed a 146 there carrying passengers from Faro http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6355220&nseq=4

xflyer

Aer Arann Islands moved to Inverin for much the same reasons mentioned by Irish Steve above. A less than happy relationship with Galway airport management.


This was posted over on the Galway City forum late last year. Gives you an idea of the problems.

ff99 wrote: »

The truth about galway airport.
The staff at galway airport have worked very hard over the last number of years to further the business, look after its customers and build themselves a future. Along with a small group of other employees of the airport, we wanted to clarify a few things and set the record straight.

We believe the airport has been mismanaged terribly over the last number of years. We have heard the Minister for Transport say that the airport is running with a huge cost base, this is true. The top four managers, who consist of the "senior management team" run up a wages bill in excess of half a million euro. This doesnt include company cars, credit cards, gym memberships, health insurance, unlimited phone bills and big expense accounts. This perhaps wouldn't be too bad if any significant milestones had been achieved in the last few years, but instead all that has happened has been a litany of disasters. A navigation device for aircraft which cost a quarter of a million euro called an NDB which has never been switched on! An emergency water supply which cost tens of thousands of euro, also never used and not installed correctly, massive lights on the aircraft parking areas bought, installed and never used, costing an absolute fortune.

They have sat back and watched while airlines pulled out and destinations were dropped. The airport went from having 16 busy routes over 3 airlines, to having no routes and no airline, only empty promises of return, that not even the airlines own employees believe. From processing over 300,000 passengers a year, to processing 0! And the airport management and board of management have sat back and watched it all happen, nothing done about it, nothing changed. Managers kept in their positions because of pride, the unwillingness to admit that the dream team wasnt working.


Staff positions and promotions were never done fairly and always carried out in secret, with little regard to qualifications or suitability or even age or life experience. As it was put recently, the airport has only served as a breeding ground for management and their offspring, with nepotism, absenteeism and office romance dictating the direction the airport was taken.



So there is underway a big clearout of the staff at the airport, a sensible move you might think, considering the high cost base upon which it was operating. Bring the Staff level down to a bare minimum to ride out the storm, cut from 55 down to 7. It didn't surprise any of us staff to hear that out of the four senior management positions, three were still being kept! 47 redundancies in total, yet only one of them from senior management! The rest all from the workforce. Over 95% of the Staff gone, and 75% of the managers remain. Aerodrome Manager - kept, Financial Manager - kept, General Manager/Managing Director - kept (although a new person will take up the role), marketing manager - redundant. Wage bill after big clearout, probably still in excess of €300,000.

Staff at the ground level have been decimated. People who have worked there over 20 years been let go, and managers been kept in their jobs. People which the airport cannot open without such as air traffic controllers and firefighters being let go, yet the managers stay. Which brings me on to the new Manager who will replace the managing director who is off to Australia. His first task, to give a lucrative contract to his own company to run the career transition programme which has featured in the local media. All of the back clapping in the paper and praise for the airport has just been senior management feathering their own nest again. " The chairman of the galway chamber of commerce congratulated the airport on the programme" - of course he did, he had a part in signing it off!!!!! The new manager, who I will not name, started giving courses on how to do up your CV, and was engaging with staff to find out information about the airport before he even told them that he was going to be their new boss, and the person who will be negotiating their redundancies with them. How was this new manager picked? We don't know, did he have an interview? we doubt it. Perhaps it was because he was a long serving member of the board of management that got him his nice new handy number. Rumours are circulating that his company has been advising senior management for the last number of months, orchestrating the whole collective redundancy situation entirely.

All of this adds up to a huge blow for staff, all of these pills which are hard to swallow, all which we have to take and remain silent for fear of our jobs or been bullied by our managers, when everyone there knows who is responsible for the mess we find ourselves in today. And then they offer statutory redundancy for all out its loyal employees. Less than 40% of what staff got a year ago, the final kick in the face to the already downtrodden staff. Management claim they have no money, despite receiving massive funding from the government every year for as long as any of us can remember. Perhaps it was the brand new, never used, state of the art fire engine which arrived last month, or the big going away do for the MD before he jetted off to Australia?



So I put it to the people of Galway, that there is an Airport in Carnmore, already built and (nearly) ready to go, all it needs is someone with some foresight and ability to think beyond the "grab all" celtic tiger mentality, which has bred this type of corruption and small town attitude. If there is anyone out there willing to make a go of it, the expertise and facilities are there, all we need is a change at the helm.



Sincerest Regards,

Staff members of Galway Airport

(we do not represent all staff members, just the vocal ones)

xflyer

This was also posted on the Galway city forum, note the date, 2000. The opportunity was there but vested interests involved in Galway airport and Aer Arann made sure it never happened. Pay attention to the projected passenger figures for 2012, 280,000. Compare that to Knock passenger figures for 2011, 450,000. Those 280,000 passengers are driving to Knock and Carnmore's figures are currently nil!

It's easy to blame the recession but Connaught's figures prove otherwise.

July 3, 2000

Boost for effort to relocate Galway airport
Irish Times


Businessman Mr Denis O'Brien has thrown his weight behind a campaign by
Minister of State and Galway West TD Mr Eamon O Cuiv to relocate Galway
airport and develop it for international travel.

Mr O'Brien, chairman of Esat Telecom, had been in discussions with Corrib
Airport Company on developing the existing runway at Carnmore. Not only has
he pulled out of these negotiations, he has also described the development
plans as 'flawed' and a 'waste of taxpayers' money'. However, the Minister
for Public Enterprise, Ms O'Rourke, has reaffirmed Government financial
support for Carn more, and has said that any relocation must be 'a matter
for the airport board'.

The debate on the future of Galway airport - or airports - has been running
for some time, but temperatures have been raised by Mr O'Brien's statement.

O Cuiv, who has also been given a leg-up by Galway Corporation has earmarked
80 acres for the new site. Both the corporation and the county council
commissioned consultants to examine air traffic needs. Buchanan and
Associates - also authors of a land use and transportation study for
Galway - estimated a market for 280,000 passengers per annum by 2012, and
that a 1,600-metre runway would be required to cater for 200-seater
aircraft.

'Carnmore doesn't have that amount of land available, and there would be
difficulties with an extension in terms of the number of landowners out
there,' Mr Joe Gavin, city manager, says. 'Oranmore was identified as an
ideal location for a larger airport because there are only two landowners -
ourselves and the Department of Defence.' an Spellissy records in The
History of Galway: City and County, published late last year, Carnmore
aerodrome was originally a private airfield built by Ernest Steiner, a
German businessman and former Luftwaffe officer, who had set up a factory
outside Galway and wanted to be able to commute regularly to his home in the
then west Germany In 1970, *Udaras na Gaeltachta subsidised Aer Arann to
promote a daily service to the Aran islands. Spellissy quotes former Irish
Times (italics) western correspondent, Michael Finlan, who described
Carnmore then as 'little more than a jumped-up airstrip that ended abruptly
at a stone wall beyond which sheep grazed'.

The corporation believes 240 acres would be required to develop an
international airport, and its decision to sign over acreage at Oranmore is
subject to the required balance being released by the Minister for Defence,
Mr Smith.

Last month, the city council resolved to send a deputation to Dublin to meet
the Taoiseach, Ms O'Rourke and Mr Smith with a view to acquiring a further
160 acres of land owned by the Department of Defence. The deputation also
intends to seek State funding for the Oranmore project. How such a request
will be received is another matter, given that Ms O'Rourke has made her
position clear.

Two years ago her Department allocated (pounds) 3.1 million to Carnmore to
upgrade its runway. This funding - (pounds) 1.1 million of which has been
drawn down to date - still stands, a spokesman for the Minister told The
Irish Times. It is understood that the initial tranche has been used to
acquire extra land for the project, and a planning application has now been
lodged. Mr O Cuiv has made no secret of his opposition to this expenditure.
He has warned that Galway will lose out on tourist numbers if it cannot
provide such a link - in spite of proximity to Shannon and accessible links
to the east coast, which already make for a year-round industry.

Observing the debate are bemused members of Galway Chamber of Commerce,
responsible for Corrib Airport Company at Carnmore. Mr John Coyle,
businessman and chairman of the company, is not only 'surprised' at Mr
O'Brien's decision to pull out of talks on involvement in Carnmore, he is
also mystified that the debate should be so polarised.

'We are not against an airport at Oranmore, and the public clearly support
Mr O Cuiv's campaign,' Mr Coyle says. 'The corporation's allocation of land
is the first very positive step in plans for its development. However, even
if such a facility did get support immediately it would be some years before
construction.

'The reality is that Galway needs Carnmore. It is run on a profitable basis
for the business community of this area, with five flights daily to the
capital. However, to maintain that success, and meet the requirements of the
Irish Aviation Authority, we need to proceed with our own development plans.
This time next year it will be our London City airport.'

The airport has already set a 12-month target for attracting 100-seater
aircraft. 'We are building up traffic here, so why limit options now by
trying to force a choice between two very different operations?' Mr Coyle
asks. The priority for most of its commuters is the Dublin link, which is
now more flexible following the introduction of an Aer Arann route, and a
direct service to Britain may be viable next year. Northern Europe is also a
possibility, according to Mr Jarlath Feeney, the chamber of commerce's chief
executive, who points out that Galway already has a new summer air link to
the Swiss capital, Zurich.

Mr Liam Barrett, a spokesman for Mr O'Brien, said Mr O'Brien was interested
in supporting the Oranmore proposal, and was carrying out a feasibility
study. Mr Barrett confirmed that Mr O'Brien had been in discussions with the
Carnmore management in relation to taking an equity stake, but 'on further
reflection' he had decided that he would consider a significant investment
in the development of Oranmore as the future Galway airport to be
worthwhile.

Mr O'Brien had 'no fault to find with Carnmore', Mr Barrett said. However,
he also confirmed a statement made by Mr O'Brien on June 23rd which said
Carnmore 'will not be able to handle the continued economic expansion of the
Galway region as the runway will never be able to be expanded to cater for
the full range of Boeing 737 or equivalent commercial jets'. To proceed with
extending the runway would be a 'waste of taxpayers' money', the statement
said.

Irish Steve

Turbo Porter wrote: »

While I agree with the vast majority of what you said regards GWY.I would say it was not quiet that tight getting an empty 146 in there consider I photographed a 146 there carrying passengers from Faro http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6355220&nseq=4

The problem wasn't so much the length, although it's over 200 Mtrs shorter than LCY, the problem is also the width, and the taxiways, if the wind is straight down the runway, it's relatively simple, but if there's a cross wind factor, there's damn all to play with, and going off the edge is not an option. If I recall correctly, the Faro flight was a 146-200, and they also operated via Waterford, which is again 200 Mtrs longer than Galway. At the lengths were talking about, that's significant.

In the early days, there wasn't an ILS, and that made things very much harder, due to that Telecom mast I mentioned, it intrudes very significantly into the clear area that's required for approach and go around, so an NDB DME approach was possible, but had restrictively high minima above what would otherwise be possible and acceptable

BA are operating Airbus 318's in to LCY, to SNN outbound, then on to JFK,and direct JFK-LCY on the way back, a very specialised service, but I'd be very reluctant to even try and put a 318 or any other capable jet on to GWY, simply because there's a lot less margin to play with if it's not perfect, and perfect is not the way aviation works, anything above normal is an advantage, but normal has to be the accepted norm so that there's room for error without disaster.

The decision to use Inverin was also partly due to the different requirement of the Aran Island operation. There is no way that the islands will ever be anything other than a VFR operation, and there were and are times when the Islands were VFR, but GWY was IFR, which would have meant a lot of extra issues for Aer Aran if they were to operate to and from GWY, and the other aspect is that using Inverin is a much shorter flight time, so a much lower operating cost on aircraft that are going to be a higher seat per mile cost because they are Avgas prop rather than Jet A1 turboprop. More recent attempts to look at a turbo prop for the islands went badly wrong, so they are still served by Islanders and the like.

We;ve seen what Knock, with a larger runway has acheived, but in the same breath, Sligo has similar problems to Galway, for the same reasons, the runway there is also limiting.

Ideally, GWY needs international routes to Europe, but the ATR 42 is not capable of going that far non stop with a good load factor off that runway, London is about your limit, so if you are going to have to stop off somewhere else on the way, a lot of people decide that the aggravation of having to check in twice, pay 2 lots of "extras" charges and the like are not worth the hassle, and they go to either Knock, Shannon or Dublin and get a direct flight. Anything bigger, like the ATR 72 is even more restricted.

Overcoming that problem for both Galway and Sligo means a new runway, and with the way that the economy is now, that's not going to happen any time soon at either location. Sligo would cost a fortune to extend as they'd have to do massive landfill to get the land to build on, and Galway is fraught with ownership issues and terrain issues on the present site, and moving to a new location and starting again is unlikely to be an option now.

I'm not happy to see the regionals suffering like they are, if things had worked out differently, I could well have been flying in and out of GWY and others, which I would have been very happy to do, but it didn't come good, but that's the sort of thing life throws at us.

Neworder79

Turbo Porter wrote: »

While I agree with the vast majority of what you said regards GWY.I would say it was not quiet that tight getting an empty 146 in there consider I photographed a 146 there carrying passengers from Faro http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6355220&nseq=4

That 146 was flown via Waterford, so it didn't have to lift fuel for main Faro leg and could make it out of Galway with passengers. But even then it was still weight restricted at the time and can't have been profitable to operate 2 legs with a reduced load.

xflyer wrote:

Compare that to Knock passenger figures for 2011, 450,000. Those 280,000 passengers are driving to Knock and Carnmore's figures are currently nil! It's easy to blame the recession but Connaught's figures prove otherwise.

First Knock figures for 2011 were 654,000, an increase 11% on 2010 attributable to several new Ryanair and Flybe services.

But you can't categorically say a theoretical passenger projection from a 12 year old newspaper article proves Galway passengers are using Knock en masse, ignoring Shannon and Dublin which would account for a larger share of the cites patronage. Even if a new runway suggested in that article appeared in the morning, the airport would have to compete with those 3 airports, something it's proven it can't do even with a custom made airline operating more economical turboprops and the luxury of substantial state subsidy.

shanemul

Correct me if i'm wrong but one of the main problems as well as the runway length is a large mast close to the threshold of one end of the runway which also causes restrictions even for Aer Arann with the ATR 72

xflyer

Well I lifted the figures from Knock's own website. But your figures make the point more impressive. Really the point was that Galway needed the runway 12 years ago. It's far too late now.

The money was there in 2000 to build a jet capable runway at Oranmore not Carnmore. It would have been a serious contender or even fatal to Knock. But thanks to vested interests, Galway kept their narrow short runway suitable only for smaller regional aircraft. With the result we see today.

Go out to Oranmore, the old RAF airfield is now a rather sad relic of the Tiger years with a speculative site built by the IDA as a possible pharma complex. Theres's a road to nowhere and a couple of nice ponds and a hill. Climb the hill and look out onto the firing range and see how much room there is for a proper airport. What might have been.

cson

Sad as it may be, the infrastructure plan for this country should be focusing on completing an Atlantic corridor interurban and consolidating commercial aircraft ops to DUB, ORK, SNN and NOC.

SNN in particular is criminally underutilised and should be catering for Clare Galway Limerick and possibly Tipperary which comprise a significant number of people.

Irish Steve

shanemul wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but one of the main problems as well as the runway length is a large mast close to the threshold of one end of the runway which also causes restrictions even for Aer Arann with the ATR 72

The mast is an issue, but not as significant as the payload restriction due to the runway length. As I mentioned earlier, while London City is only about 200 Mts longer than Galway, it is the critical difference between go and no go for many of the aircraft that operate into London, but have never been seen at Galway. It isn't just the distance available, there are many complex rules about the distance that is available and remaining in the event of an engine failure during take off, and all sorts of other complications, and in some cases, it's not just the take off distance, it can also be the landing distance available, and required, that determines if a type can use the airport. The LCY-JFK is a prime example, the stop at SNN is not just for Customs and immigration clearance, although that is a major advantage to the type of customers that flight is aimed at, it's mainly because there is no way that the 318 can get out of LCY with the fuel for the transatlantic trip, so they have to stop somewhere for extra fuel, and SNN is ideal with the pre clearance. On the way back, the fuel has been burnt off, so landing into LCY direct from JFK is not an issue in the same way, and there are plenty of alternates in the area that are suitable diversions in the event of not being able to get into LCY for whatever reason.

The mast was for sure a problem, more for easterly landings, especially before the installation of the ILS, in that it represented the minimum descent height, (plus a safety factor) that could be used for non precision approaches, and if the weather was bad enough to require an instrument approach of any sort, then the limit because of the mast made it pretty much a waste of time flying the approach, as the height restriction caused by the mast made it almost certain that there would be little chance of becoming visual for the landing. That's the big advantage of the ILS, it's a precision approach, so the minimum descent height is usually to 200 Ft above the ground at the end of the approach, and much more likely to be usable, unless there is serious low cloud or fog. The mast could also be a factor in the engine out departure, if an engine fails, the climb performance is severely compromised in comparison to normal operations, so obstacles that would normally not be any sort of problem have to be considered in terms of the route that is taken on departure if an engine has failed. If the aircraft can't clear the obstacle, a change of route out has to be worked out, and turning at low speed with an engine out is something that is not popular, as a banked turn affects either climb rate or speed, and both can be very marginal on one engine.

There were no doubt about it some vested interests at the time when the alternate site was considered, and that may well prove to be the long term death knell of Galway, keeping it going on a seasonal basis will be very hard, as there will still be significant costs incurred in the off peak periods. It's also significant that there has been very little development of General Aviation at Galway in comparison to many other airfields, and that again has to be indicative of the underlying attitude towards approaches that would have been made over the years. The number of B & B's around the area would have ideally suited commercial training, and the relatively low level of commercial operations would have been ideal for training, but unlike Waterford, Galway didn't get any training in the same way.

The window of opportunity was there, and for all the reasons that various posters have put forward, Galway has missed it, and may now end up paying a very high price for that failure. There are a number of jobs that require regular operations to be happening, ATC and fire/rescue being the main ones, and a part time airport in the summer only will struggle to get people in those key posts if they can't offer work for the rest of the year.

xflyer

I lived directly under the approach for a while just beside the mast. The Velux window in my spare room was obviously directly in line with the localiser. The mast is very close and in poor weather it was evident how close the ATRs were coming. Interesting to watch.

As for GA, Galway Airport got themselves a very bad name with the GA community for a number of reasons. So pilots stayed away. Even recently they didn't make things easy for someone who wanted to operate there and actually generate revenue for the airport. On top of that Galway Flying Club who operate there are difficult and expensive to join, although friendly. So even potential student pilots living in Galway had problems getting access.

But there is potential for GA in Galway. This potential has been noticed and there are people waiting in the wings eyeing the opportunities. Watch this space as they say.

islanderre

Evening folks,

Quick note about the 146 operation out of galway; a few years back, I flew direct Galway to Malaga....defo did not stop in Waterford out or coming back. Also, the 146's were supposed to operate the London City route too, I remember that PR Guru Max Clifford launching the route but anytime I called to the Airport to see it operating a Dornier 328 Turboprop was operaing it. Was told that the high speed of the 328 for a T/Prop and the low speed of the 146 for a jet made the time difference insignificent for a flight to London.

Still recall the good times in galway when Ryanair (ATR42) and Aer Lingus (SD-360, F-50 and SAAB 340) were operating together @ galway then Aer arann took over everything. One weekend morning I recall seeing either 4 or 5 ATR's on the ramp @ Galway. Was a great site for such a small apron.

Really cannot see Aer Arann returning again....... sad to have to say it.

shanemul

islanderre wrote: »

Evening folks,

Quick note about the 146 operation out of galway; a few years back, I flew direct Galway to Malaga....defo did not stop in Waterford out or coming back. Also, the 146's were supposed to operate the London City route too, I remember that PR Guru Max Clifford launching the route but anytime I called to the Airport to see it operating a Dornier 328 Turboprop was operaing it. Was told that the high speed of the 328 for a T/Prop and the low speed of the 146 for a jet made the time difference insignificent for a flight to London.

Still recall the good times in galway when Ryanair (ATR42) and Aer Lingus (SD-360, F-50 and SAAB 340) were operating together @ galway then Aer arann took over everything. One weekend morning I recall seeing either 4 or 5 ATR's on the ramp @ Galway. Was a great site for such a small apron.

Really cannot see Aer Arann returning again....... sad to have to say it.

I think you have yourself confused there. Aer Arann \ Nex Aviation operated the services to Amsterdam, Malaga, Faro & Bordeaux all which operated via Waterford due to the restrictions in place out of GWY. Euromanx also operated a RJ70 which they used briefly into Galway

islanderre

Shanemul,

Deffo flew direct Galway - Malaga - Galway; was on a 146 or RJ series. I'll try and dig out a picture.......seem to remember it had a red tail.

Regards,

Islanderre

islanderre

Pictures were taken in 2005 I think @ Malaga after arrival from Galway. Euromanx closed down soon after I think.

Regards,

Islanderre

Turbo Porter

Neworder79 wrote: »

That 146 was flown via Waterford, so it didn't have to lift fuel for main Faro leg and could make it out of Galway with passengers. But even then it was still weight restricted at the time and can't have been profitable to operate 2 legs with a reduced load.

I think my post was misunderstood.It was in reply to the original post by Irish Steve where he stated "TNT did once put an empty 146 in there, but it was very tight indeed"
My point was that a 146 with lot's of passengers arrived there with no issues regardless of whether or not fuel stops were required on outbound legs.
I'am well aware of balanced field requirements of a given aircraft regards engine failure on T/O,obstacle clearance etc.It was just the line of an empty 146-200QT struggling with GWY's runway and another 146-200 this time full of Mammy's,Daddy's and Babies landing there with no significant wind to help the landing roll.

Teebor15

Just watching this threadwith amusement..theres an awful amount of ****e being posted about GWY and 146 ops. Firstly Galway airport is operating as an Aerodrome reference code 3C airport. 3 meaning the runway is between 1200 and 1800M long and C meaning the max aircraft wingspan allowed is less than 36M. The 146 is a code 3C aircraft and is a STOL (Short take off and landing) Jet and is ideal for short runways. So their is no problem operating a 146 onto Gwys runway. The problem comes when you wish to operate to a destination which exceeds the range allowed from the runway lenght..but the same can be said for any runway. Eg dublin can easily accept a Boeing 747-400 but not if it wished to depart to the west coast of america fully loaded as the runway is too short. Something has to give when restricted by runway lenght..either payload (pax and bags) or range.

Also comparisons are being made with London city..London citys runway is the same as Gwy..almost same Lenght (TODA 1385 V 1349 for Gwy) same width aswell 30m and same Taxiway width..in fact one of Gwy taxiways are wider!

The 146/RJ that islanderre is refering to is an RJ75 which is the smallest of the RJ family operated by Euromanx at the time and yes i believe it could/did operate non stop from Gwy to Malaga. The 146-200 was used by AerArann/Nex in 07/08 and is slightly larger at 100 seats. It did stop at WAT enroute to pick up passengers but not always fuel if i recall correctly.

L1011

If GWY's runway is the same size more or less as London City's, what kind of range would you get on an A318 then? I presume it can get a bit further than the BA LCY-SNN-JFK one does but obviously if its not going to compete with an ATRs range its not worth it...

Neworder79

A318 had to be specially modified and certified for LCY 5º approach, but that was worthwhile for a premier class high cost service. Very few A318s in service and not especially economical to run. As with the perviously mentioned jets, yes several including the RJ75 and Embraer 145 could operate into Galway, but clearly not without operating restrictions due to runway clearance, weight/range/power limitations.

But this ignores the reality that it's not economical to operate 45-75 seat jets on thin routes with low business demand. These aircraft have higher seat mile costs on average compared to ~190 seat low cost 737/320s operating down the road. RJs normally operate business commuter services where demand exists and they can charge higher fares. There may well be some business demand to London, but are they willing to pay 3 times fares at other airports for the convenience, and what airline would be willing to try it? Other than a couple of charters no operator has managed to make any money flying jets into Galway or the services would have continued.

The airport probably had the two best suited, most economical aircraft based in the form of REs ATR72 and BEs Q400 turboprops. They still couldn't maintain a sustainable business as evident from BE base closed after a year, RE decline and examinership, and airports subsidy dependance.

If they can keep a leaner airport afloat and maintain a seasonal London connection they will be doing well to wether the next few years.

boeingboy

Yeah that RJ70/85/100 series was much better that the 146.

Often pass by them at FL350, We had all those Cityjet RJs in USA with Mesaba/Northwest and they shift a load no problem. I believe Air France/CityJets operate their 85s on the Dub-Cdg route at FL330 and vv 34k no problem. Quite faster also at up to Mach 0.72, just about the same as a B733 or A319. Easyjet cruise alot about M0.71 thereabouts.

Different engines (upgraded)than 146. Plus Efis cockpit and Cityjets are Cat 3B with DH 50ft and RVR200M for landing. Flexible.

Good Machine just expensive with 4 hair dryers.
My guess is Embraer 190s soon for Cityjet or that Bombardier Cseries.

aeroedge

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

1. TNT were seriously restricted due aircraft being 2 tonne heavier due cargo config, door etc.
2. 146-200 has better runway performance than RJ
3. Runway width at GWY (30m) poses no restrictions to 146 (same as LCY)
4. 146 operated direct to PRG with 94 pax (charter numbers, better than scheduled)
5. No landing issues with 146/RJ, better than ATR due 3 independent braking systems and barn door spoilers.
6. Cruise speed of 146 is mach .69/70 - though for fuel economy on long sectors .65 preferable.
7. Problem operating 146 out of GWY is cost of fuel (20c per litre more expensive) they take a massive margin, and when your burning 2 tonne an hour it adds up pretty quick.
8. ATR is not performance restricted off 26 (except temperature) problem is obstacles off 08 (trees, telegraph poles, buildings).

Johnny901

Curious, earlier reference to Fly Be operating out of Galway with the Dash 8, what route (s) and why did they stop ? Loads or a strong base for Aer Arann ??

Irish Steve

aeroedge wrote: »

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

1. TNT were seriously restricted due aircraft being 2 tonne heavier due cargo config, door etc.
2. 146-200 has better runway performance than RJ
3. Runway width at GWY (30m) poses no restrictions to 146 (same as LCY)
4. 146 operated direct to PRG with 94 pax (charter numbers, better than scheduled)
5. No landing issues with 146/RJ, better than ATR due 3 independent braking systems and barn door spoilers.
6. Cruise speed of 146 is mach .69/70 - though for fuel economy on long sectors .65 preferable.
7. Problem operating 146 out of GWY is cost of fuel (20c per litre more expensive) they take a massive margin, and when your burning 2 tonne an hour it adds up pretty quick.
8. ATR is not performance restricted off 26 (except temperature) problem is obstacles off 08 (trees, telegraph poles, buildings).

Thanks for the clarifications, it was over 10 years ago that I was dealing with some of those factors, before Aer Aran had the ATR's, so the specifics were hard to remember, and I wasn't so much involved with the Ops side at that time, more the ground support areas that would have made the Ops side possible. My hope was to also be involved subsequently with Flight Ops, but Eurowest didn't happen in the end, for all sorts of complex reasons, so the team got dispersed and went their different ways.

It was also before the ILS went in, which was a major factor. NDB DME didn't and doesn't allow the same degree of accuracy, and the restrictions were much more onerous.

Water under the bridge a long time ago, but my attitude at the time was we had to try, and we did.

Cosmo Kramer

Johnny901 wrote: »

Curious, earlier reference to Fly Be operating out of Galway with the Dash 8, what route (s) and why did they stop ? Loads or a strong base for Aer Arann ??

Flybe flew from Galway to Belfast City, Birmingham and Southampton at a time when there were around 15 or so destinations served from the airport - RE were serving places like Cork, Leeds, Bristol and Cardiff at that stage. Flybe withdrew in spring 2008, average loads were reported to be struggling to even reach double digits on their routes.

DOCARCH

A slippery slope!

http://www.galwaynews.ie/24047-airport-anger-bank-seizes-%E2%82%AC11m-its-deposit-account

xflyer

Looks over now. The bank could see the writing on the wall and acted. The question now is who will buy the airport?

tippilot

xflyer wrote: »

Looks over now. The bank could see the writing on the wall and acted. The question now is who will buy the airport?

If anyone.

xflyer

Well T, guess who was expressing an interest?

tippilot

You're kidding??!

xflyer

Timing may not be right though!

tippilot

Pity. Nice gig for a certain Dublin pilot in exile in the West. How about Executive helis?

xflyer

Looks like the end game now: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0206/galwayairport.html

Plus it's confirmed Aer Arann won't be back.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/24132-d-day-galway-airport-it-faces-possible-liquidation

Cosmo Kramer

If Galway Airport are really this financially crippled, what on earth were they doing giving away free parking to passengers all last summer?

Tens of thousands of pounds a week were thrown away right there - the airport has clearly been run into the ground for years by an incompetent management reliant on the Government to bail them out annually while empty planes were departing to Leeds, Cardiff and other unprofitable destinations. One positive of the recession is that these chancers have been exposed. Terribly unfair on the workers there though.

Jesus Nut

Sad news about Galway Airport.
Mabey the Club should move to the new state owned Clifden Airport. At least it would not cost the club any money to operate from there.

What will Executive Helicopters do?

zone 1

Give it to MOL he might no what to do with it...........

bk

The unfortunate reality is that since the opening of the high quality motorway network, it is now much easier to get around Ireland and therefore we have too many airports for such a small country.

The motorway network is having a similar impact on all infrastructure, including the intercity rail network, rail freight and ports.

L1011

zone 1 wrote: »

Give it to MOL he might no what to do with it...........

O'Leary can't run airports. He expects airports to serve Ryanair below cost as it stands.

Also, GWY isn't capable of operating 737-800s.

extraice

Galway over all

train avg about 50 euros ....(havnt take train in long time ) to dublin extra 7 euros to airport via 747bus
Bus 25 euros to airport r city Citylink,gobus
car 60-100 euros on fuel and 20 on parking in dublin city
docks 80% of the current cargo is oil
where the NEW air link is to be established between Galway and Dublin using seaplanes back in 2011 ...
Musgrave , The group confirmed plans to close its Galway outlet at the ... first option on transferring to the Musgrave distribution depot in Kilcock due new motor way link (Summer 2010 )
New plan for the bigger airport in Oranmore
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2028648
Galway TD Eamon O Cuiv, who supports the building of the new airport at Oranmore, said he would favour the land remaining in state control ad that it would not necessarily be in the interest of the government to sell it…..”

So again Galway lost out , when people going wake up and smell whats going on around you , when it good for the city , so many knok it down ...
and whats story with all the traffic ... GCC that want to wake up aswell

Su Campu

extraice wrote: »

Galway over all

train avg about 50 euros ....(havnt take train in long time ) to dublin extra 7 euros to airport via 747bus
Bus 25 euros to airport r city Citylink,gobus
car 60-100 euros on fuel and 20 on parking in dublin city
docks 80% of the current cargo is oil
where the NEW air link is to be established between Galway and Dublin using seaplanes back in 2011 ...
Musgrave , The group confirmed plans to close its Galway outlet at the ... first option on transferring to the Musgrave distribution depot in Kilcock due new motor way link (Summer 2010 )
New plan for the bigger airport in Oranmore
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2028648
Galway TD Eamon O Cuiv, who supports the building of the new airport at Oranmore, said he would favour the land remaining in state control ad that it would not necessarily be in the interest of the government to sell it…..”

So again Galway lost out , when people going wake up and smell whats going on around you , when it good for the city , so many knok it down ...
and whats story with all the traffic ... GCC that want to wake up aswell

Very difficult to read your post. Please take some time to check errors before posting.

andy_g

Su Campu wrote: »

Very difficult to read your post. Please take some time to check errors before posting.

Please dont back seat mod.

Su Campu

andy_g wrote: »

Please dont back seat mod.

Sorry, didn't mean to mod. I just have a pet hate of posts written like that.

Regarding Galway, it's a great shame that it's come to this. A thriving tourist city like that should have its own airport, but it would appear that the management have done everything in their power to ensure it loses it. Knock and Shannon are too far away. People complain about Ryanair's destinations way removed from the main city, but it's the same as calling Knock or Shannon "Galway North" or South".

On the upside, maybe if it falls under new ownership then the attitude towards visiting GA may improve. I have not flow there due to what I've heard from others, but it would be first on my list if that were to change.