Who should wear 13 for the Six Nations?

Hype710

I know there is a seperate Six Nations thread, but I think it would be interesting to find out who people think should replace BOD at 13 for the Six Nations. Common consensus suggests Kidney will pick Earls there as he has featured there before, but he is an unpopular choice among supporters, and with good reason.

Personally, I would go with Tommy Bowe or Darren Cave. Although Bowe is a natural winger and one of our best backs, there are valid reasons for picking him at 13:
(1) He's one of our most experienced backs and is less likely to be phased at the prospect of filling in for the great one.
(2) He's played there before and done reasonably well (third Lions test)
(3) It would facilitate the much-needed (imo) physicality of Andrew Trimble playing in his best position, 14. Luke Fitzgerald and Keith Earls are both great options for the left wing.

I think Cave is the best of the natural 13s available for the time being and would certainly welcome his inclusion in the side. Griffin and O' Malley, while great prospects, aren't ready for International rugby yet imo. McFadden is a much better 12 and I'd like to see him get starts against Scotland and Italy in that position.

Risteard

Eoin Griffin

Cave would be my first choice.

thomond2006

Eoin Griffin

If Bowe was playing 13 regularly for Ospreys, I would put him there. His ability to run lines and his general vision is up there with the best.

As he's not, I would play Cave.

It's a moot point anyway, since Kidney will pick Earls. His defence at 13 this season for Munster has been shoddy, with a performing 12 inside him he is capable of a lot in attack.

profitius

Eoin O' Malley

Griffin for me. I wouldn't mind seeing Cave or EOM there also. I think Kidney will pick Earls or McFadden there.

Hype710

Keith Earls

profitius wrote: »

Griffin for me. I wouldn't mind seeing Cave or EOM there also. I think Kidney will pick Earls or McFadden there.

I think I read Griffin is injured for 4 weeks, which is a shame. Was hoping himself and O' Halloran would start for the Wolfhounds against the Saxons. O' Halloran should certainly be picked in any case.

borna7

Eoin Griffin

Darren Cave for me. Has plenty of experience in the position against top class opposition and hasn't been shown up to date. Others may have greater acceleration, pace or power but Cave has a very good rugby brain and tends to make the right decisions. Something that is critical for a 13.

Hagz

D'Arcy for me.
EDIT: Wait, not with bloody Paddy Wallace. With either McFadden or McSharry on his inside.

LeeroyJones

Eoin O' Malley

If our next match was a World Cup final I think Cave is our most talented 13 have in the country right now. However, in the interest in fulfilling potential to the maximum I think getting Griffin or Spence in there would be a better long-term shout.
A few months ago I'd have said Spence is superior to Griffin but I think Griffin is edging it right now. Really interesting tussle for coming years.

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

How can people still be voting for Earls at 13???!?!???

duckysauce

James Downey

vinny chase

Fergus McFadden

duckysauce wrote: »

James Downey

A one-dimensional twelve, not a thirteen by any measure.

badbeatcentral

Fergus McFadden

EoM is GOD

Amazotheamazing

Between Earls and Luke Fitz for me, the others are too inexperienced, or in the case of Darren Cave, just too slow for top level rugby.

I'd rather see Earls kept on the wing because of his try-scoring, Fitz doesn't have the out and out pace to be an Int wing but I could see them interchanging.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

Tox56 wrote: »

How can people still be voting for Earls at 13???!?!???

The world would be a dull aul spot if all of the people agreed, all of the time...

duckysauce

vinny chase wrote: »

A one-dimensional twelve, not a thirteen by any measure.

he would be a hell of alot better than Earls there, and is a big tackler

vinny chase

Fergus McFadden

duckysauce wrote: »

he would be a hell of alot better than Earls there, and is a big tackler

I don't rate Earls as a thirteen, and I still don't agree with that statement.

There's a huge difference between being a big tackler and being a good defender, and I'd argue that it's the latter that's more important with respect to the thirteen channel. Often simply being in the right positions to close down the space is way more important than being able to smash guys.

Downey's main attributes would be his ability to play off a ten's shoulder and generate front foot ball, or maybe get his hands free in contact and make offloads. I think he would be under-utilised with respect to those skills at thirteen, and I don't think he has the distribution skills necessary for the position.

Finally, he's thirty one, and isn't the player he was a season or two ago. Maybe he ought to have gotten more international recognition, but I don't think it's of great benefit to Ireland to be bringing him in now.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Luke Fitzgerald

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Between Earls and Luke Fitz for me, the others are too inexperienced, or in the case of Darren Cave, just too slow for top level rugby.

I'd rather see Earls kept on the wing because of his try-scoring, Fitz doesn't have the out and out pace to be an Int wing but I could see them interchanging.

I'd love to see Fitz involved in the centre for Ireland but, it won't happen unless he plays/is forced to play there for Leinster. I'm, as of yet, undecided about Earls in the centre. He showed fantastic awareness and handling in the Connacht game to set up the Scanlon try (I think its that try and game anyway). It just all depends on how his defense shows up in Munster's upcoming games.

Provided Earls shows marked improvement in his defense, I'd love to see:
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. Fitgerald
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Kearney
22. McFadden

If Earls doesn't show up well in the upcoming games, I'd probably have Cave at 13 as, he is the least risky option. D'Arcy could also be an inspired pick at 13 but, I'd just rather he was to take a backseat so, we can blood a new 12 - He has been average-to-poor at this level for a number of years. We may need to include him for experience's sake though.

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'd love to see Fitz involved in the centre for Ireland but, it won't happen unless he plays/is forced to play there for Leinster. I'm, as of yet, undecided about Earls in the centre. He showed fantastic awareness and handling in the Connacht game to set up the Scanlon try (I think its that try and game anyway). It just all depends on how his defense shows up in Munster's upcoming games.

Provided Earls shows marked improvement in his defense, I'd love to see:
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. Fitgerald
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Kearney
22. McFadden

If Earls doesn't show up well in the upcoming games, I'd probably have Cave at 13 as, he is the least risky option. D'Arcy could also be an inspired pick at 13 but, I'd just rather he was to take a backseat so, we can blood a new 12 - He has been average-to-poor at this level for a number of years. We may need to include him for experience's sake though.

I'm not going to go near Earls at 13, but would you really break up a Sexton/Reddan combo that, as a combination, is playing better than Murray/Sexton? Murray may be playing better as a player (I disagree) but as a combination Reddan/Sexton are tried, tested and experienced together.

Fitzgerald did look good at 12 I must admit, but if your going to have someone playing for their country, they must be playing that position for their club side. D'Arcy and McFadden have been (the latter playing well), and until Fitzgerald plays 12 for Leinster, he really can't for Ireland.

4 Wingers on the field at the same time?

CatFromHue

Bowe, and Luke Fitz for me shouldn't be on the list at all. When was the last time Bowe even played in the centre? Fitzgerald when he has played in the centre it was at 12. When I have seen either of these guys play in the centre they very much look like wingers who are playing at 12 or 13. The argument that O Malley or Griffin aren't experienced enough (I don't agree with it just pointing it out as some posters have mentioned it) and so should not be on the list would also apply to Bowe and Fitzgerald in my eyes.

I really like the look of McFadden on the wing but as a centre I'm not convinced by him. He has been caught out a few times already in defence for Ireland when played at 13. Offensively I think he uses the route 1 option without checking what else is on.

Of the other candidates I don't think any have shown the form to put them in the driving position. Spence is injured at the moment and with Cave already being favoured for the 13 position for Ulster he can be ruled out. I did very much like the Wallace Spence partnership from last season though.

So who would I pick? I dunno to be honest. With a Pro12, two HEC games and an Ireland A game still to play before the 6 Nations there is still plenty of time for a player to stand out from the crowd.

Also while this thread is about 13 there could equally be another thread for the 12 jersey. I personally wouldn't pick D'arcy his form for Ireland and to a lesser extent Leinster is not what it used to be and what it needs to be.

Amazotheamazing

The thing with Reddan is he's as good as he's ever going to get most likely, and that's only ok at Int standard. Murray is as good as him already but has far, far more potential than Reddan now has. If two players are more or less equal you have to go with the guy with greater potential.

cgpg5

Eoin O' Malley

I'd give it to Griffin, maybe I'm biased as a Connacht fan however there is no better chance than now to give the lad a chance he has been as good as any other Irish centre so far this year, saying that it will be Earls I have no doubt about that.

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

Bowe is not a good 13. He's just wasted there. I'll possibly be even more upset if he plays there than if Keith Earls plays there. Ospreys learned their lesson after trying it.

Why not use this time without BOD to work out what we're doing in the position in the future rather than shoehorn a great player into a short term solution.


For me it's O'Malley or Cave.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Luke Fitzgerald

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm not going to go near Earls at 13, but would you really break up a Sexton/Reddan combo that, as a combination, is playing better than Murray/Sexton? Murray may be playing better as a player (I disagree) but as a combination Reddan/Sexton are tried, tested and experienced together.

Fitzgerald did look good at 12 I must admit, but if your going to have someone playing for their country, they must be playing that position for their club side. D'Arcy and McFadden have been (the latter playing well), and until Fitzgerald plays 12 for Leinster, he really can't for Ireland.

4 Wingers on the field at the same time?

Ireland have played their best rugby with Reddan and Sexton playing together but, I rate Murray as a better player who has the potential to be a far superior player. Reddan is also 31 and isn't getting younger. I'm of the opinion that the younger player should get the nod provided he is of a similar standard and has the potential to be a better player and, this applies perfectly in this case.

I agree that a player would ideally be playing the same position for both provincial and national teams but, Fitzgerald has already had a lot of game time at 12 for Leinster and he could get more before there before the 6N. A Fitz-Earls centre partnership has been proven fruitful for the Lions so, I think it is worth a shot for Ireland.

You may see it as 4 wingers playing alongside one another but, it involves getting all of our best players on the field in positions where they have experience of playing at high levels (3 Lions). The combinations may prove to be awful but, I think they could work. It would be great to have good running/breaking threats from 9-15 too.

CatFromHue

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ireland have played their best rugby with Reddan and Sexton playing together but, I rate Murray as a better player who has the potential to be a far superior player. Reddan is also 31 and isn't getting younger. I'm of the opinion that the younger player should get the nod provided he is of a similar standard and has the potential to be a better player and, this applies perfectly in this case.

I agree that a player would ideally be playing the same position for both provincial and national teams but, Fitzgerald has already had a lot of game time at 12 for Leinster and he could get more before there before the 6N. A Fitz-Earls centre partnership has been proven fruitful for the Lions so, I think it is worth a shot for Ireland.

You may see it as 4 wingers playing alongside one another but, it involves getting all of our best players on the field in positions where they have experience of playing at high levels (3 Lions). The combinations may prove to be awful but, I think they could work. It would be great to have good running/breaking threats from 9-15 too.

Reddan being 31 shouldn't matter in any way. The 6 Nations is 5 games long and we should be picking our best players regardless of what age they are. It is madness to do anything else.

Having 4 wingers on the pitch would be similar to having 4 strikers on the pitch in football. It doesn't mean you'll score more goals, if anything it's like playing with a man down. Fitz and Bowe in the centre defensively would be a nightmare. They would be defending in a completely different way than on the wing. On the wing they'd be used to marking their man or the last man out, if he has the ball tackle him. In the centre it's much more complicated as you have to drift, watch for wingers coming in, loops, switchbacks and so on.
Sometimes being better to pick the right guy to tackle is a better trait in the centre than being able to smash someone in the tackle. Offensively it's more difficult in the centre, you have to able to pass off both sides, run lines, time your run better, crash it up and present the ball better, and then there is off loading too. Then there is also the fact you'll be asking two players to play in key positions and form a partnership when neither of them will know what to do!

To me having a backline of Fitz, Bowe, Trimble and Earls would be awful. Especially considering we do have some good centres knocking about who could do a job far better.

Also what do you mean a Fitz Earls partnership has proven fruitful for the Lions?

Quint2010

Keith Earls

I would love to see Bowe there. He has strength, good hands and of course superb acceleration.

CatFromHue

Quint2010 wrote: »

I would love to see Bowe there. He has strength, good hands and of course superb acceleration.

Why doesn't he play there for the Ospreys then?

Brendan97

Fergus McFadden

9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.Earls/Trimble
12.Fitzgerald
13.O'Malley
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why doesn't he play there for the Ospreys then?

In the two Heiniken cup games v Saracens I know that he played on the wing, so that would be his primary position. He plays centre, but is less effective there. There was also that welsh coach who came out the other day criticising the Ospreys for wasting their "two talents on the wings" Bowe and Williams, so that's where is seen to play primarily.

Quint2010

Keith Earls

CatFromHue wrote: »

Why doesn't he play there for the Ospreys then?

Probably because Kidney has told them to play him on the wing. As someone said earlier we all know Deccie will pick Earls at 13 but I honestly think Fitzgerald, Bowe, Cave and O'Malley are all better options.

CatFromHue

Quint2010 wrote: »

Probably because Kidney has told them to play him on the wing. As someone said earlier we all know Deccie will pick Earls at 13 but I honestly think Fitzgerald, Bowe, Cave and O'Malley are all better options.

Why would the Ospreys listen to Kidney? His relevance to their operation is as much as mine i.e. none.

Eoin Griffin

Order of Preference but certainly not likelihood

1 - Cave
2 - D'Arcy
3 - McFadden
4 - O'Malley
5 - Earls / Griffin
6 - Ferris (every list needs to have Ferris at #6)

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fergus McFadden

Deleted User wrote: »

Order of Preference but certainly not likelihood

1 - Cave
2 - D'Arcy
3 - McFadden
4 - O'Malley
5 - Earls / Griffin
6 - Ferris (every list needs to have Ferris at #6)

If have you have Darcy at 13 who plays 12? If you have McFadden as a 13 I presume you have Darcy at 12 and that pairing hasn't set things alight in Leinster

CIARAN_BOYLE

Eoin Griffin

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If have you have Darcy at 13 who plays 12? If you have McFadden as a 13 I presume you have Darcy at 12 and that pairing hasn't set things alight in Leinster

that's why we play D'Arcy at 12 and Cave at 13. Simples.

Another option is
11 - Earls
12 - Fitz
13 - D'Arcy
14 - Bowe
15 - Kearney

ed7890

Keith Earls

I know he doesn't play there, but i would love to see Bowe tried there. I think he's got all the tools, especially how he reads the game, spots a gap, links with other players. Wont happen though, not while he's playing club rugby outside Ireland.

Other than that I'd like Cave given a shot.

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Ireland have played their best rugby with Reddan and Sexton playing together but, I rate Murray as a better player who has the potential to be a far superior player. Reddan is also 31 and isn't getting younger. I'm of the opinion that the younger player should get the nod provided he is of a similar standard and has the potential to be a better player and, this applies perfectly in this case.

:pac:

*Runs off to find the 100s of times you called for O'Gara to start since Sexton came on the scene*

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

that's why we play D'Arcy at 12 and Cave at 13. Simples.

d'Arcy and Cave would be slower than a wet week in longford.

Amazotheamazing

Eoin Griffin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

d'Arcy and Cave would be slower than a wet week in longford.

No idea how you think Cave is ANY slower than BOD

profitius

Eoin O' Malley

D'Arcy is in the same boat as DOC ie past their best with the mileage on the clock starting to show. He will be the 12 because there are not many alternatives there yet (though McFadden could be tried there). The last thing I'd want to see is D'Arcy playing 13.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

No idea how you think Cave is ANY slower than BOD

He isn't, but BOD is BOD, one of the all time greats. You didn't really just compare them, did you?

profitius

Eoin O' Malley

Deleted User wrote: »

No idea how you think Cave is ANY slower than BOD

Because he is. BOD is still very fast over the first 10 meters.

Amazotheamazing

Eoin Griffin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

He isn't, but BOD is BOD, one of the all time greats. You didn't really just compare them, did you?

nice pointed question, you said he was slow. He's almost certainly quicker than the guy we've had at 13 for 10 years.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that he's not quick from. He's not Earls, Carr or Hickie, but he's certainly not a slouch.

He's also the most natural 13 we have available for selection, has proven his worth defensively and offensively when available for selection, and has far less holes in his game than any other option we have.

I personally think it's a no-brainer.

Risteard

Eoin Griffin

Deleted User wrote: »

nice pointed question, you said he was slow. He's almost certainly quicker than the guy we've had at 13 for 10 years.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that he's not quick from. He's not Earls, Carr or Hickie, but he's certainly not a slouch.

He's also the most natural 13 we have available for selection, has proven his worth defensively and offensively when available for selection, and has far less holes in his game than any other option we have.

I personally think it's a no-brainer.

Agree. Of he options he's the one that plays week in week out at 13 and does so to a good standard. Probably not an international superstar in the waiting but he's a pretty good player. Besides, centre isn't all about speed, Earls has bags of pace and he isn't the guy I want in the13 jersey. Griffin would be my 2nd choice.

McFadden at 12.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

nice pointed question, you said he was slow. He's almost certainly quicker than the guy we've had at 13 for 10 years.

I have no idea where you're getting the idea that he's not quick from. He's not Earls, Carr or Hickie, but he's certainly not a slouch.

He's also the most natural 13 we have available for selection, has proven his worth defensively and offensively when available for selection, and has far less holes in his game than any other option we have.

I personally think it's a no-brainer.

BOD used to be very quick, as was still very quick 10 years ago. As he aged he changed his game.

Darren Cave is more like John Kelly, smart player but limited. Great club player but that's really the height of it. Even Fitz is a good bit faster than him.

Eoin Griffin

Speed is almost a non-issue at 13, that's my point. It helps a bit, but it's way down the requisites of a lot of 13s. Break a tackle / break the line, give it to the 11. That's what almost all outside centres have been told to do. If there were "assists" in rugby, 10 and 13 would have them all.

BOD is the incumbent in the Jersey because of his brain and awareness, not because of his pace/ lack of pace. Cave is a clever player, reads the game well. The thing that always impresses me about him is that even when he has a quiet game, he doesn't make mistakes.

Seriously, writing Cave off as a potential international aged 24, after being injured for much of last season, and for not having electrifying pace is up there with Hook saying Bowe would never make it as a top class winger because he has no pace either.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Speed is almost a non-issue at 13, that's my point. It helps a bit, but it's way down the requisites of a lot of 13s. Break a tackle / break the line, give it to the 11. That's what almost all outside centres have been told to do. If there were "assists" in rugby, 10 and 13 would have them all.

.

Are you actually being serious?

thomond2006

Eoin Griffin

Although he's not strictly speaking a 13, I think Jauzion proves that pace isn't everything when you're gifted in other areas.

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

Pace is vital at 13.

Don't think Cave is slow though, I'd have him there for sure (or O'Malley, they're our only options at this stage really).

Amazotheamazing

Eoin Griffin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Are you actually being serious?

Of course.

Obviously there's a minimum level of pace required which is practically the same for every single position on the pitch.

A good 13 will pick a correct line and find a gap without relying on pace and pace alone. Perhaps this is the reason why I feel that Earls is a poor choice at 13, mostly because his "dummy left and turn right into traffic" when he receives the ball from the right, and accordingly his "dummy right and turn left into traffic" when he receives the ball from the left simply don't cut it as an attacking line.

Seriously can't comprehend the "Cave hate", especially if basing it on a perceived lack of pace.

As said above, he's no Earls or Carr, but he's not going to get caught out.

Amazotheamazing

thomond2006 wrote: »

Although he's not strictly speaking a 13, I think Jauzion proves that pace isn't everything when you're gifted in other areas.

Pace isn't everything but to say it's almost a non-issue is bizarre. You need acceleration to break the gainline, or you need to be a decent stepper, I don't think Cave has either, tbh, whereas Earls has one and Fitz has the other. (Earls hasn't a bad step either tbf).

To say it's ok to be slow because BOD is slow is nonsense.

Amazotheamazing

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course.

Obviously there's a minimum level of pace required which is practically the same for every single position on the pitch.

A good 13 will pick a correct line and find a gap without relying on pace and pace alone. Perhaps this is the reason why I feel that Earls is a poor choice at 13, mostly because his "dummy left and turn right into traffic" when he receives the ball from the right, and accordingly his "dummy right and turn left into traffic" when he receives the ball from the left simply don't cut it as an attacking line.

Seriously can't comprehend the "Cave hate".

It's nothing to do with whether I like Cave or not, I admire him as a player but he's not Int class. Danny Barnes has 4 ML tries this season, I wouldn't suggest running him out at 13 either.

Amazotheamazing

Eoin Griffin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Pace isn't everything but to say it's almost a non-issue is bizarre. You need acceleration to break the gainline, or you need to be a decent stepper, I don't think Cave has either, tbh, whereas Earls has one and Fitz has the other. (Earls hasn't a bad step either tbf).

To say it's ok to be slow because BOD is slow is nonsense.

no step, no strength, no pace, no brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH2qv7RW_5A

Are we talking about the same player?