Is the Beamish Brewery not a Listed Building??

Voodoo_rasher

I'm not a Cork native but this matter below has irked, jarred me this morning:

http://examiner.ie/ireland/150m-project-gets-go-ahead-at-beamish-site-179094.html

Have only ever been to your city once & do wish to see what for you's must be priceless heritage.

So, are you's letting some LOUSY Property Developer concrete and pave all over it??:pac:

Will you approach your councillor (a literate one) and plead for its retention?

Oh great, I now read about a pretentious 'viewing tower', '46 student apartments' ( they may drink Beamish in years to come yet not

realise they are living, eating, and sh&tting where once something authentic and irreplaceable stood!)



"As well as the 11,339sq m event centre, the developers applied to build an eight-screen cinema, two pedestrian bridges, a viewing tower, 46 student apartments with 206 bed spaces, a visitor centre, 10 artists’ studios and various restaurants, shops, bars and galleries"

Read more: http://examiner.ie/ireland/150m-project-gets-go-ahead-at-beamish-site-179094.html#ixzz1iZKybYOB

EPM

I always thought the front was protected alright.

But what are they to do with the site? Let it rot? No ones is going to want to visit a derelect brewery and an event centre is badly needed in the city imo.

kcb

The frontage of the counting is planned to be kept intact. That's good enough for me.

It sounds like a great plan and would tidy up that manky part of town.

Now this shower The National Conservation and Heritage Group are trying to scupper it all. Will they ever p*ss off.

Outkast_IRE

Wouldnt such a large capacity event play havoc with the traffic to that side of the city, they are all small roads around it at present. There must be better locations for such developments surely.

langdang

Isn't it just about authentic as this?

Used to live across the road from B&C, and what's behind the facade looks like a pretty crap building?

cornbb

The facade of the building is kinda nice but the site as a whole is not really that pretty. Even right next to the famous facade you can see into open warehouses from the road. I'm not sure I would call the Beamish site "priceless heritage" although I concede that people will disagree with me.

Regardless, I would have to question the sanity of anyone who wants to build a fairly ambitious-sounding development given the state of the economy. The Opera House is a well-established "events centre" in the city and I hear they are having a very difficult time staying open all year round. And there is hardly a demand for more retail space, apartments etc.

gbee

kcb wrote: »

Now this shower The National Conservation and Heritage Group are trying to scupper it all. Will they ever p*ss off.

Another 1,000 cars trying to access South Mains Street ~ ye boy, fantastic.

gbee

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Wouldnt such a large capacity event play havoc with the traffic to that side of the city, they are all small roads around it at present. There must be better locations for such developments surely.

In a press conference I was once told this was a minor detail and to shut **.

gbee

Now we can close out City entirely, we already enjoy Mahon Point Traffic and many of you will have enjoyed long views of the area waiting to move whether one was shopping or NOT and just trying to get home after a day's work.

And Mahon Point would not be attracting anything like the numbers that could be attracted to the South Mains Street and Mahon Point has a wonderful road network according to developer Owen O'Callaghan.

Enjoy folks, I'm moving to Achilles

evilivor

EPM wrote: »

I always thought the front was protected alright.

Indeed.

"The Counting House building is listed on the Record of Protected Structures in the Cork City Development Plan 2009 – 2010 (PS 330). The protection afforded this building extends to the rest of the historic structures within the central block as they lie within the curtilage of the protected structure. This determination is supported by the identification of the entirety of the central block on the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage (listed as the Counting House, (NIAH Reg. no. 20514018) as being of architectural significance."

Dermighty

Try and get them to bulldoze Reardens and Cubins while they're demolishing the brewery. That whole side of the city is one giant ****hole.

Milly33

Im with you and the bulldozing or reardens what a dive of a place and they should have the bouncers in there while they are at it...

I stopped myself from reading the rest of the article on this because it is so fecking daft so sorry if i am missing a few details or have a some wrong...

I think that perhaps recording studios, and an events centre would be great..But again I wouldnt trust the council with anything. They will probably fork out loadsa money for the centre and then overcharge to get in there... Apartments I laugh at, have they not noticed the amount of empty houses and apartments around cork at the moment...Yes that is the answer bulid more to stand empty for years.

They should be thinking more on the lines of yes completly yes keep the old building and have some kinda history tour or details of what it was. Have an events centre that caters to all from film buffs, to music to a selection rather than one thing. If they had something like an Imax theatre twud be fantastic there arent any left in Ireland so it would be an attraction. Recording studios for bands would be great and also for use to students who would like to learn recordign all that goes.. Rather than the stupid apartments have a nice kid frienldy park in the middle...wallla i think i should submit plans....

goldie fish

The building is not as old as it looks. It was built sometime around 1895. There are far more historic buildings falling derelict in the city that deserve attention more. The Unitarian Church for example. I bet most people in cork would struggle to find it. It was built in 1710 and was where Fr Mathews temperance agreement was signed in 1839.
Of course we still have not got the firemans watch house back since Patrick St was remodelled.

calnand

so happy this is going ahead, as an architecture student I want to see new buildings being built. and I don't have to drive to Dublin or killarney to go see big headliners. I believe heineken are planning to use the counting house part and other parts of the brewery as a museum, similar to the one they have in Amsterdam and create a Cork version of the Guinness storehouse which had 930,000 visitors last year and was the 2nd most visited tourist attraction compared to 377,000 for fota, which was 9th. as regards traffic and parking I heard a story they were trying to buy the carpark across the road, and build a new multistorey carpark, but they wouldn't sell the site. in whole I think its a great investment in the culture and future of Cork.

flo8s967qjh0nd

There are some good things about this development, some not so good.

The event centre is much needed, though not on this site. Owen O'Callaghan has now said he won't go through with his alternative event centre plans in the docklands. As he rightly points out, there is only room in Cork for one such development. I think O'Callaghans site was much better suited to this type of development - for traffic reasons alone.

A concert bing held on a (for example) Friday Evening in South Main Street will lead to traffic mayhem on that side of the city. They can say all tehy want about regular bus service, park and ride, etc, but the fact of the matter is people will want to be dropped off in and around South Main Street and the place will be a nightmare to get through.

A multistorey carpark on the opposit site will never get planning permission. The single-level carpark on the site is a anomaly and has just temporary planning permission. It would fly against the entire Development Plan to allow another multistorey to be built on the city centre island and it will (rightly) not happen at this site.

Overall, the site needs to be redeveloped. I'd like to see more on a tourist/museum feature with more emphasis on the industrial heritage of the site and the elements of the Cork City wall which is buried under the site. I think a lot of things could change once archaeologists get on site and one of the most positive elements of the redevlopment is the oppurtunity it gives us to dig up the majority of the site and do some proper aracheology there.

I believe the Cinema development is a bit of a cop out. I'm not sure if such a large cinema is needed in the city centre. Apartments are fine and we have to plan for the future when there iwll be a growing market for them.

From a visual perspective lots of the buildings proposed are overly bulky and dominating over what is a relatively small street. I still also have reservations as to the impact of the curved arena building on views of the Cathedral.

Typewriter

I also agree that the O'Callaghan site would have been the best place. It also would have also tied that area more into the city.

But I dont see why the O'Callaghan development still cant go ahead as wasn't he focusing more on conferences than gigs (Like the new Convention Centre in Dublin).

I reckon he's just broke.

calnand

I think the beamish and Crawford site is much more suited than the o callaghan site. his site was those two old warehouses on Albert quay, not exactly the docklands. and regarding views you can't exactly see st finbarres from the street anyway, so it won't make a difference

I saw a 3d rendering of the proposed development in one of the papers yesterday and thought it looked horrible. Doesn't suit the area at all. As others have said it will be a traffic nightmare, every street in the area in tiny and unsuited for the traffic this will draw in.
I also can't see the point of putting a cinema in there with the Gate cinema five minutes walk down the road. I bet this will be dropped at some stage and a block of apartments will replace it at the last minute.

calnand

heres a link to site scott tallon walker, with proposed images of what the project will look like.
http://www.stwarchitects.com/project-information.php?p=09164

calnand

calnand wrote: »

............. I heard a story they were trying to buy the carpark across the road, and build a new multistorey carpark, but they wouldn't sell the site. in whole I think its a great investment in the culture and future of Cork.

That car park is owned by property developers who used to have lofty enough ambitions to build on it years back, they may have missed their opportunity but they bought the site well before the boom and as a car park it turns over a decent enough cashflow with little overheads.

WalnutWhip

Unfortunately, I’ve only just learned what’s to become of this site and I am horrified by what has been proposed. It simply cannot go ahead.
While obviously, any regeneration of that run-down area and any effect that will have in stimulating the local economy is a great, it it has to be carefully planned out. I work in building conservation so the historic building is my primary concern, but I’m also really concerned about the longer term effects this will have for Cork.

First of all the idea of an entertainment centre, student accommodation and whatever else they’ve decided to bung in, is terrible. IT WILL NOT WORK! It’s a residue of the Celtic Tiger booming oblivion; but, needless to say, Cork is a very different city now. People are cautious with their money and of course, because this is a new deluxe development it will be ludricously expensive. I’ve never heard the people of Cork pining for an entertainment centre and I’m pretty sure, in these austere times they’re not suddenly going to go crazy for one. Fine, it may create an initial little flutter, but it will fizzle out. Basically, I think the idea is unsustainable for the location. It is forcing a solution into the site without assessing the site’s merits and the city’s needs.

I think a heritage museum as the NIAH have suggested is a pretty abysmal idea too to be honest. A load of empty copper vats isn’t going to do a whole lot for local tourism. While perhaps it’s not the most inspired idea, I so think some type of independent brew house would be great here with basic, BUT DECENT, food being served too. BBQ in the summer in the front court. Maybe throw up a few placards with old photos to remind you of the history you’re sitting on. Either that or a bakery or something, just to keep the industrial element of the site alive.

Next up – the STW renderings I’ve seen are repulsive. It’s like flat-pack architecture. It is soul-less. It’s typical boring, modern architecture that is completely unsympathetic to the historic building and also to the location. I am all for developing the site, but it should be done intelligently. Local materials like our lovely limestone should be used to compliment everything surrounding it, the design should have features of industrial architecture so that the site retains some merit and that it can, to an extent, still be read.

I sincerely hope the NIAH win their appeal. While I know Cork is desperate for some relief from the recession, I don’t think this proposal is going to cut it. It will be like The Elysian – something that had set out to be a symbol of how far Cork and it’s people had come, now in it’s empty, lifeless state, it’s a ever-present, painful reminder of how far we’ve fallen. After the building work has been completed, the centre won’t take off and we’ll be left with an ugly eyesore and an integral piece of our past will be lost forever.

Cork is never going to be this great big cosmopolitian city. But that’s a GOOD THING! Cork has a charm like no other city and a history to be proud of. I really feel the vibrancy has been gradually sucked out of Cork by this prosperity boom and slap-dash schemes like this that’s proposed, to me, seem like we’ve learnt nothing.

Cork deserves better than this.

Rhys Essien

To WalnutWhip I disagree totally.County Cork has a population of 520,000 people and you say a 5,000 seater event centre is not needed.

Look at the weekend papers and see all the shows and gigs that go on in Dublin and Belfast.These IMO should also be going on in Cork.

Also the front face of the main building is going to be kept and the rest of the site is only a heap of old sheds,so where is the problem.

As it is,half of Cork City looks derelict and this can only be a good thing.

WalnutWhip

WalnutWhip wrote: »

.......... While perhaps it’s not the most inspired idea, I so think some type of independent brew house would be great here with basic, BUT DECENT, food being served too. BBQ in the summer in the front court. Maybe throw up a few placards with old photos to remind you of the history you’re sitting on. Either that or a bakery or something, just to keep the industrial element of the site alive...........

A brew house or a bakery or something? In fairness, neither sound particularly viable on a site that size.

A 5000 seater event centre may not be a total flop, as mentioned, the majority of site was a eyesore when in production, being idle hasn't enhanced it.

WalnutWhip

To Rhys Essien:

No. I don’t think it is needed. We have an Opera House that has had to close for however many months of the year because people weren’t going to it. Those shows in Dublin and Belfast COULD be going on in Cork but they’re not. They never have been. Cork isn’t Dublin or Belfast and in my opinion, it shouldn’t try to be either. I mean, remember the furore over the Kino closing? Something along those lines, listening to what people ACTUALLY want and will use regularly so that this whopping scheme pays back. In reality, who are the big acts we’re going to get every weekend? Who can afford to pay for tickets, which will be, what €50, a go? Will this centre be lying idle half the year round?

Perhaps the facade is the only part architectural significance, but there will be elements within of historical importance that will be lost in the proposed scheme. The impact of a building is more than just the front, it’s the whole site and setting, why it was built there and how it affected the areas around it. One blast with a bulldozer and you lose so much of the understanding of the building.

That said, I’m not suggesting it be preserved 100%, but I do think a more sympathetic design could be devised. One that’s better suited, not only to that site but the whole street.

(And eitherway, I think having a load of students in there is only going to wreck whatever bit of the original building we’re blessed enough to be keep.)
I agree with you that Cork is looking very shabby lately and like I said, I’m all for the redevelopment of the site. I just don’t think the scheme proposed is going to fix that; I would like to see a more original, thoughtful design and a use that is more suited to the people of Cork.

And to RoverJames: I did say my ideas weren't very inspired - literally just off the top of my head. But like I've said above, I do think a better solution can be found.

Rhys Essien

WalnutWhip,this event centre is badly needed.The Opera House only has 1000 seats and is too small to hold any big name act.That is the reason it got into financial difficulty.

Come the summer,see how many gigs will be going on at Live at the Marquee.We cannot keep this going on in a big tent year after year.

gbee

WalnutWhip wrote: »

To Rhys Essien: No. I don’t think it is needed. We have an Opera House that has had to close for however many months of the year because people weren’t going to it..

Correct> ** Despite the odd sell out show, the Opera House in Cork is Heavily subsidised by the Arts Council AND Cork City and Cork County local authorities.

The Cork 2000 and the Millennium Porjects have all run out of money due to lack of overall support. These massive projects of which Opera 2000 was one that was extremely popular and im the typical Irish Fashion, if it's so good let's sell the thing to death one every year, twice a year and despite falling numbers many already failed project still got local and county backing as well as arts grants.

As regards all the theatres in Cork, one sees the same crowds supporting the shows and artists, one could make a case by comparing all the audience figures but it's the same small audience going to everything.

WalnutWhip

So basically, we’re making a whopping investment for the two weeks of the year that Olly Murs and Jedward drop by. Hmm. I honestly don’t think we’re going to see any big names coming here regularly just because we’ve got a new venue – and like I said, big name acts come with big price tags, so who are the people that are going to be going here week after week?

And what’s to become of the Opera House when this is built? Another redundant, derelict building then I suppose...

But Rhys Essien, I do completely understand the difficulty in finding a change-of-use for a new site/building and I can appreciate the best intentions of the developers. I am just concerned for the loss of the site that I grew up minutes from, the change on the city-scape and the suitability and sustainability of the venue.

gbee

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Come the summer,see how many gigs will be going on at Live at the Marquee.We cannot keep this going on in a big tent year after year.

Live at the marquee has become an institute just as much as some of the Opera House shows around Christmas into the new year have become and do attract full houses for the six weeks of the runs and that is the end of it.

One cannot extend them onto a year long venture it just won't sell. Put the Live at the Marguee into a permanent concrete venue and it's its death-knell, apart from one or two shows that will just take from the Point In Dublin anyway and not add new audiences.

The promoters have come to this realisation, the tent is attractive, it's got it's annual life just right, it's there in the summer, it's a festival all to itself and then it's gone.

You just won't fill a 5,000 seater stadium in Cork with enough events on a weekly or monthly basis, especially as punters discover the trouble it is to get to this site. Why is the point so successful in Dublin?

evilivor

gbee wrote: »

Live at the marquee has become an institute just as much as some of the Opera House shows around Christmas into the new year have become and do attract full houses for the six weeks of the runs and that is the end of it.

One cannot extend them onto a year long venture it just won't sell. Put the Live at the Marguee into a permanent concrete venue and it's its death-knell, apart from one or two shows that will just take from the Point In Dublin anyway and not add new audiences.

The promoters have come to this realisation, the tent is attractive, it's got it's annual life just right, it's there in the summer, it's a festival all to itself and then it's gone.

You just won't fill a 5,000 seater stadium in Cork with enough events on a weekly or monthly basis, especially as punters discover the trouble it is to get to this site. Why is the point so successful in Dublin?

Totally agree. The Marquee is set up by, staffed and dismantled by workers on temporary contracts - the biggest single cost issue in setting up a venue is the cost of staff.

The people who clamber for a large venue in Cork out of, what I believe, is a misguided sense of loyalty to the place, are the reason enormous sums of money get squandered.

Build a 5,000 venue in Cork and you fill it for two nights with Christy Moore; two nights with Dara Ó Briain and three nights with Jedward - what on earth do you do with it for the other 51 weeks of the year?

It would be far cheaper for the city council to charter a plane to fly people to Dublin for every show in the O2 or Grand Canal Theatre and buy them their dinner as well, than to support a white elephant venue in the city. It doesn't make any economic sense.

trebormurf

Only people from Cork will attend shows at this venue?So nobody living outside Dublin goes to the Point?Utter bolloxology speaks you my friend!!

WalnutWhip

WalnutWhip wrote: »

So basically, we’re making a whopping investment ...............

Just wondering here but isn't it BAM Contractors in joint venture with Heineken Ireland that would be making the investment?

WalnutWhip

Yes, fair enough. Though there's no need to be pernickety, the point of my post wasn't to highlight the investors.

Ah no I wasn't being pernickety, just wondering was the City somehow involved in the funding like how the Opera House is being given a financial grant or whatever. The "we're making ... " comment did imply that a tad which is why I was wondering.

If a Heineken and Co are paying for it all let them off imo, the site as it stands is an eyesore.

WalnutWhip

Sorry, it’s difficult to gauge the tone of a text message --you know the way.

I couldn’t agree more that the site needs to be regenerated. (I’m even half coming round to the entertainment centre idea.) But the actual design that’s been put forward is terrible. There is SO much you could do, design-wise, with this site; it could be such an interesting project, a feather in Cork’s cap. There’s so much history at the site to inspire a really inventive scheme.

I would just love to see something more original here.