What is MMDS picture quality like

Ranicand

What is MMDS from UPC like picture quality and how many channels is it missing compared to cable?

Thanks.

Kristopherus

I presume you are asking that arisin from the other thread:). I have mmds and the picture quality is on a par with $ky sd. I haven't seen cable mysely but a family member has had both an found no difference, I suspect because the cable was linked to a 21in tv. The range of channels on UPC is not as wide as $ky. That said there isn't as much rubbish either. My gripe with UPC is they did not add ITV 3 & 4 to mmds customers, only ITV 2.

UPC packages are cheaper than $ky. And they don't charge as much for multi-room. I'm very happy with what I've got, for whatever length it lasts:).

$ky will have to reduce their charges pro rata to their Uk prices before I would even consider going back to them.

markest

MMDS picture quality appears equal to others on full cable but also not happy we cannot get ITV 3 & 4 and Scy-fy channel not available either. Would rather have these than +1 channels.

watty

There are two different MMDS systems that UPC run, depending on area.

The ex NTL one has less channels than Sky, Freesat/FTA satellite or UPC Cable and lower quality than Satellite (comparing the SAME channels). The ex NTL MMDS quality may be similar to UPC Cable.

The ex Chorus one has fewer channels, poorer engineering (not UPC's fault) and lower quality still. No PVR for ex Chorus MMDS.

There is no Phone/Broadband option as there is with UPC Cable.

If you want lots of Channels at best quality then Freesat HD box and Dish for UK and Aerial and Saorview for Irish TV.

If you want pay TV, then Sky is far better than MMDS.

MMDS will likely close in next few years too.

This year all the so called "Deflectors" must close. "Freesat HD" is once off cost and much better anyway.

markest

watty wrote: »

There are two different MMDS systems that UPC run, depending on area.

The ex NTL one has less channels than Sky, Freesat/FTA satellite or UPC Cable and lower quality than Satellite (comparing the SAME channels). The ex NTL MMDS quality may be similar to UPC Cable.

The ex Chorus one has fewer channels, poorer engineering (not UPC's fault) and lower quality still. No PVR for ex Chorus MMDS.

There is no Phone/Broadband option as there is with UPC Cable.

If you want lots of Channels at best quality then Freesat HD box and Dish for UK and Aerial and Saorview for Irish TV.

If you want pay TV, then Sky is far better than MMDS.

MMDS will likely close in next few years too.

This year all the so called "Deflectors" must close. "Freesat HD" is once off cost and much better anyway.

I have ex NTL MMDS with Digital + Phone & Broadband. Only unable to get HD box.

watty

The phone and Broadband is not via UPC MMDS.

DingDong

watty wrote: »

The phone and Broadband is not via UPC MMDS.

It's available on some mmds to cable networks

watty

But then there is cable.

lucernarian

I thought the cable TV headend is effectively supplied by MMDS in those cases? And I think they're all in ex-NTL MMDS areas too, where the user experience with the TV service wouldn't be so bad. The internet and phone is separately added via microwave links on site at the headend.

DingDong

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I thought the cable TV headend is effectively supplied by MMDS in those cases? And I think they're all in ex-NTL MMDS areas too, where the user experience with the TV service wouldn't be so bad. The internet and phone is separately added via microwave links on site at the headend.

Correctamundo

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I thought the cable TV headend is effectively supplied by MMDS in those cases? And I think they're all in ex-NTL MMDS areas too, where the user experience with the TV service wouldn't be so bad. The internet and phone is separately added via microwave links on site at the headend.

In such a case it's real cable TV +Broadband (DOCSIS), but just happens to be MMDS backhaul for the video, so a reduced video service. On such networks they will easily increase the Microwave link capacity after MMDS closes to continue the service.

Actual "personal" MMDS where you have your own mesh dish and downlead doesn't have Broadband and will likely end in 2014.

I'm fairly sure thart virtually all the UPC shared cabled areas that just happen to be fed by MMDS for TV will get upgraded to full broadband and video as that is economically viable. But standalone rural MMDS is never going to get upgraded, nor have cable broadband. It's almost certain to be gone before or during 2014. That's obvious from the Comreg "consultation".

galtee boy

watty wrote: »

In such a case it's real cable TV +Broadband (DOCSIS), but just happens to be MMDS backhaul for the video, so a reduced video service. On such networks they will easily increase the Microwave link capacity after MMDS closes to continue the service.

Actual "personal" MMDS where you have your own mesh dish and downlead doesn't have Broadband and will likely end in 2014.

I'm fairly sure thart virtually all the UPC shared cabled areas that just happen to be fed by MMDS for TV will get upgraded to full broadband and video as that is economically viable. But standalone rural MMDS is never going to get upgraded, nor have cable broadband. It's almost certain to be gone before or during 2014. That's obvious from the Comreg "consultation".

And good riddance to it. I had it some years ago ( Chorus ) and it was dire. And don't forget Ntl/Chorus must have the worst Customer Service dept in the history of broadcasting. As Watty has said, Freesat HD PVR plus Saorview PVR ( due out soon hopefully ) is far superior for rural viewers and Sky if you want sports etc. BBC, ITV, Channel 4, all in glorious HD plus RTE 2 HD for free ? It's a no brainer.

watty

The ex NTL MMDS was far better engineered. Also at the 2.6GHz the DVB-T used by Chorus only adds extra cost and vulnerabilities. The DVB-T best asset is coping with Ghosting (multipath), which simply isn't an issue at 2.6GHz with a 26dB mesh dish.

The ex-NTL areas use DVB-C which at lower QAM than on cable works fine on Microwave bands at about 10% better efficiency and not so "picky" on the quality of amplifiers, converters etc as DVB-T is. I don't believe the LNBF used on the dish to convert from 2.6GHz to VHF/Hyperband for the coax cable is really good enough for DVB-T. It's perfect for the QAM level used on DVB-C on the ex NTL part.
Also it means the ex NTL part can use the same hardware as cable.

Someone who knew a little but not enough obviously advised Chorus and they made a big mistake rolling out DVB-T for their Analogue to Digital upgrade.

annette39

watty wrote: »

In such a case it's real cable TV +Broadband (DOCSIS), but just happens to be MMDS backhaul for the video, so a reduced video service. On such networks they will easily increase the Microwave link capacity after MMDS closes to continue the service.

Actual "personal" MMDS where you have your own mesh dish and downlead doesn't have Broadband and will likely end in 2014.

I'm fairly sure thart virtually all the UPC shared cabled areas that just happen to be fed by MMDS for TV will get upgraded to full broadband and video as that is economically viable. But standalone rural MMDS is never going to get upgraded, nor have cable broadband. It's almost certain to be gone before or during 2014. That's obvious from the Comreg "consultation".

whats going to happen to all the mmds customers if that happens are we going to be left with no option than either get a freesat box or go back to sky

Kristopherus

annette39 wrote: »

whats going to happen to all the mmds customers if that happens are we going to be left with no option than either get a freesat box or go back to sky

The country is f**ked at the moment, so take 2014 with a barrel-full of salt. These dates are not set in stone, and there's only a slight chance of immediate movement even if the almighty beurocracy that is the EU come calling.

annette39

Kristopherus wrote: »

The country is f**ked at the moment, so take 2014 with a barrel-full of salt. These dates are not set in stone, and there's only a slight chance of immediate movement even if the almighty beurocracy that is the EU come calling.

i hope it doesnt happen but if it does we will probebly be left out in the cold but will cross that bridge when we come to it

watty

annette39 wrote: »

whats going to happen to all the mmds customers if that happens are we going to be left with no option than either get a freesat box or go back to sky

Yes.

But actually there are not that many any more. Could be 1/2 of what it used to be. A Satellite dish isn't much bigger than an MMDS dish and you get far better quality and most people only have pay TV because it was the only way to get BBC, ITV, C4 etc. Now even C5 is also Free on Satellite.

Over 95% of viewing by Pay TV customers is of free channels. Unless you really need Sky Sport you don't need Pay TV.

MMDS customers will save a fortune. UPC and Sky are both Foreign companies. If you have an Aerial for the Irish channels (now in Widescreeen, Digital and some HD) and dish + Freesat HD PVR you have a superb system with more channels than MMDS.

Analogue TV closes Oct 2012 but since November 2010 the Digital system has been running giving better pictures than UPC or Sky (for the 5 main Irish channels on Sky/UPC) and more coverage than Analogue since May 2011.

The reasons why most people originally got cable or MMDS is gone.

annette39

watty wrote: »

Yes.

But actually there are not that many any more. Could be 1/2 of what it used to be. A Satellite dish isn't much bigger than an MMDS dish and you get far better quality and most people only have pay TV because it was the only way to get BBC, ITV, C4 etc. Now even C5 is also Free on Satellite.

Over 95% of viewing by Pay TV customers is of free channels. Unless you really need Sky Sport you don't need Pay TV.

MMDS customers will save a fortune. UPC and Sky are both Foreign companies. If you have an Aerial for the Irish channels (now in Widescreeen, Digital and some HD) and dish + Freesat HD PVR you have a superb system with more channels than MMDS.

Analogue TV closes Oct 2012 but since November 2010 the Digital system has been running giving better pictures than UPC or Sky (for the 5 main Irish channels on Sky/UPC) and more coverage than Analogue since May 2011.

The reasons why most people originally got cable or MMDS is gone.

i have a soreview box in my bedroom but even with one in my kitchen and sittingroom and useing my sky boxes as freeview boxes you loose out on a lot of channels sky 1, 2 living, watch, gold, dave comedy central, universal the list goes on so basically im screwed if the mmds is turned off i will end up having to go back to sky and they can get away with charging what they feel like cos people wont have any other choice

watty

sky 1, 2 living, watch, gold, dave comedy central, universal

Repeats, and budget junk. I bet you'd spend less than 2% time watching those.

Spend the saving on MMDS on box sets.

Ranicand

watty wrote: »

Repeats, and budget junk. I bet you'd spend less than 2% time watching those.

Spend the saving on MMDS on box sets.

Watty come on a man can not live on bread alone.

icdg

Kristopherus wrote: »

The country is f**ked at the moment, so take 2014 with a barrel-full of salt. These dates are not set in stone, and there's only a slight chance of immediate movement even if the almighty beurocracy that is the EU come calling.

The problem is that the 2014 date is the end of the current licence period for ex-Chorus MMDS. Comreg might get away with granting a brief extension but they would not be able to get away with doing this repeatedly - despite the fact they have been doing this with the deflector licenses for ten years. But the deflectors are small fry. UPC is a large international broadcaster and would start looking for a more permanent extension or at least some clarity as to whether it is going to be allowed run its business on a longer term.

The other problem is that Comreg's own consultation paper indicates that they are strongly leaning towards shutting down MMDS completely. They have other plans for the spectrum and want rid of MMDS before they can go ahead with these. I don't support the elimination of an entire platform but Comreg may also have an eye on trying yet again to sell the pay-DTT licence which as everyone except Comreg knows is a non-runner.

watty

You need a little Wine to wash it down.

Happy New Year.

Kristopherus

icdg wrote: »

The problem is that the 2014 date is the end of the current licence period for ex-Chorus MMDS. Comreg might get away with granting a brief extension but they would not be able to get away with doing this repeatedly - despite the fact they have been doing this with the deflector licenses for ten years. But the deflectors are small fry. UPC is a large international broadcaster and would start looking for a more permanent extension or at least some clarity as to whether it is going to be allowed run its business on a longer term.

The other problem is that Comreg's own consultation paper indicates that they are strongly leaning towards shutting down MMDS completely. They have other plans for the spectrum and want rid of MMDS before they can go ahead with these. I don't support the elimination of an entire platform but Comreg may also have an eye on trying yet again to sell the pay-DTT licence which as everyone except Comreg knows is a non-runner.

I dont disagree with you ICDG, but Comreg is under the Dept of Communications and their staff are public servants and are hamstrung under the recruitment embargo. Therefore any departures/retirements will not be replaced. Thats why I'm dubious about them meeting any targets.

watty

It's nothing to do with Pay DTT, but harmonisation. We bent the ITU rules even allocating the band for MMDS in the first place. MMDS was always ultimately doomed unless it was primarily a 2 way data service. UPC was refused the extra spectrum to turn it into FWALA (Fixed Wireless Broadband) with tacked on TV. So they know/knew several years ago this was coming. Likely that's why no move to a major change of ex-Chorus gear. Also the Chorus part of MMDS is the lion share and incompatible with Cable boxes and poorly enginneered.

MMDS is dying anyway and at this stage I doubt that UPC will fight Comreg to keep it.

I'll be very surprised if there is a further extension, it's on extension already.

If 5 to 10 years ago it had been upgraded to a truly national network with Broadband (DOCSIS) it would be a serious loss. But as it stands it's mostly pointless, especially the Chorus part.

All most all the "group" MMDS feeding Cable are likely to stay with replaced backhaul.

Antenna

watty wrote: »

The ex NTL MMDS was far better engineered. Also at the 2.6GHz the DVB-T used by Chorus only adds extra cost and vulnerabilities. The DVB-T best asset is coping with Ghosting (multipath), which simply isn't an issue at 2.6GHz with a 26dB mesh dish.

The ex-NTL areas use DVB-C which at lower QAM than on cable works fine on Microwave bands at about 10% better efficiency and not so "picky" on the quality of amplifiers, converters etc as DVB-T is. I don't believe the LNBF used on the dish to convert from 2.6GHz to VHF/Hyperband for the coax cable is really good enough for DVB-T. It's perfect for the QAM level used on DVB-C on the ex NTL part.
Also it means the ex NTL part can use the same hardware as cable.

Someone who knew a little but not enough obviously advised Chorus and they made a big mistake rolling out DVB-T for their Analogue to Digital upgrade.

Though MMDS (especially in hilly parts of the country such as County Cork) uses on-channel repeaters - which retransmit to a locality on the same frequencies as received but opposite polarisation. With such systems, some viewers will likely have 'echos' (ghosts with analogue). It did happen with analogue MMDS.
DVB-T is supposed to work best in such conditions?

watty

Those are not "normal" ghosting (multipath). At 2.6GHz with decent aerials DVB-C can have the unwanted signal low enough below the wanted. With Digital once you are above a certain difference the picture is perfect. So it's not a significant advantage for DVB-T.

No doubt though it was used as an additional argument for selecting DVB-T, as those indeed would be Chorus region?

You are correct, that DVB-T can cope with very high level multipath and DVB-C needs the multipath level to be lower than the required SNR for the particular QAM in use.

nw2010

The Chorus mmds works far better than the NTL version in technical terms, far more tolerent of low signal levels, signal quality, less than perfect line of sight, however there is no DVR for the chorus version, (The Chorus DVB-T version operates in many places where the QAM64 used by the NTL side would have no chance of working.
The main advantages for MMDS over sky is for those who require a lot of decoders, i wonder how many people have 5 or 6 decoders from Sky, and of course no need for telephone lines either. There are a large number of people who are 'allergic' to Sky. The Freesat/ Saorview systems can be complex, and involve a lot of setting up, and a significant cost for multiple box systems, but of course no ongoing bill, however i would imagine that 5 or 6 boxes in a house of Freeview/ Saorview boxes will incurr ongoing costs in the long run in the event of problems with no free back up unlike UPC

watty

I think you will find that there are plenty of pre-UPC days badly installed and badly engineered Chorus MMDS and ones that should not have been installed as signal is marginal and thus it freezes and pixelates.

For the same QAM, mast power, FEC and dish, the Chorus MMDS is no better. Read up on Shannon:
http://www.techtir.ie/comms/signal-loss-limits

The DVB-T vs DVB-C ONLY affects single frequency interference (virtually non-existent on 2.6GHz) and Multipath (should not be any at 2.6GHz using 20dB to 26dB gain mesh dishes). DVB-T at the same parameters has about 10% less efficiency or noise performance than DVB-C due to the overhead required of inter-symbol and frequency guard bands to give the Multi-path advantage. If you turn that parameter down, then DVB-T has no multipath immunity.

DVB-C like DVB-T can use QPSK, QAM16 or QAM64 depending on the budget allowed in system design, power / dish size vs capacity.

There is no advantage of MMDS over Sky. Also most people that have it don't actually need Pay TV. You also can have Sky in one room and free satellite TV in 2000 other rooms from one dish with cheap higher quality receivers than Chorus MMDS, including Free HD.

Anyway, the merits are irrelevant. It will be gone in maybe less than 2 years. Certainly before 2015.

Satellite is no more complex to set up if you have the correct equipment.

paulm17781

watty wrote: »

Repeats, and budget junk. I bet you'd spend less than 2% time watching those.

Well if you don't like them then surely no one else will. :rolleyes:

watty

I'm actually paraphrasing Nielsen and BARB figures. Over 90% of viewing time is the main free channels. Sky1 has less than 2%.
Many of the pay channels have too low a viewing figure to be even accurately registered above zero. As is the case for many of the FTA channels not part of Freesat.

Chuck Stone

watty wrote: »

Repeats, and budget junk. I bet you'd spend less than 2% time watching those.

Spend the saving on MMDS on box sets.

Why don't people get this?

Was in the pub with a friend recently and he was telling me about his wage cut and how things are tight.

I asked him was he paying for his TV and he says 'yeah Sky basic channels'. I told him about the combo box but he was having none of it.