Studying maths - Ireland vs England?

sdiff

I know at this stage that I want to study maths. If I were to stay in Ireland I think my best bet would be TCD. But I've also applied to Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Warwick and LSE (incase I decide I want to do something more financial)
Now, obviously if I get an offer from Cambridge I'd be foolish not to take it over TCD. But I'm wondering does the same apply to any or all of the other 4 unis I've applied to?

The tuition fees I really don't mind. The student loan system is very generous. The living costs would be a bit trickier (especially in London) but I could manage. I would love to experience a new country and living on my own as opposed to commuting to tcd.

Obviously the most important thing is academic credentials and my employer prospects. At this stage of my life nothing is set in stone but I think I'd like to work in the city of London. I will probably emigrate whatever I do. As I said, in this regard Cambridge is well ahead of trinity but can the same be said for UCL? Imperial? Warwick? Basically if I don't get an offer from Cambridge but I get one from the other universities, which ones are sufficiently ahead of TCD to warrant the extra cost? All of them?

Thanks in advance.

TheBody

Can I ask why you rate the maths dept in TCD so highly compared to other maths dept in Ireland?

equivariant

I would say that, unless you are specifically interested in mathematical physics as opposed to mathematics, then certainly Cambridge, Warwick and Imperial are much better than TCD (or any other Irish university for that matter). Not sure about the LSE (don't know much about the maths dept there - that is just my ignorance, mind).

sdiff

TheBody wrote: »

Can I ask why you rate the maths dept in TCD so highly compared to other maths dept in Ireland?

Do you disagree? I would certainly consider another university in Ireland if you think it is better.

equivariant wrote: »

I would say that, unless you are specifically interested in mathematical physics as opposed to mathematics, then certainly Cambridge, Warwick and Imperial are much better than TCD (or any other Irish university for that matter). Not sure about the LSE (don't know much about the maths dept there - that is just my ignorance, mind).

Thanks for your opinion.

ZorbaTehZ

TheBody wrote: »

Can I ask why you rate the maths dept in TCD so highly compared to other maths dept in Ireland?

Well, the only metric I know of that would be useful here would be this.

Anyways, I would agree with equivariant, all other things being equal, if you are offered Cambridge or Imperial then you should take them, particularly considering its finance that you are interested in.

Amirani

TheBody wrote: »

Can I ask why you rate the maths dept in TCD so highly compared to other maths dept in Ireland?

It's ranked 15th in the World.

sdiff

NiallSparky wrote: »

It's ranked 15th in the World.

I'd be sceptical of that particular ranking. If you check out the components - TCD got 27 in 'academic', 45 in 'employer', and 100 in 'citations' (out of 100). That citations mark is higher than Cambridge, Harvard, MIT... Every uni in the world infact. Now, maybe it is correct but it seems odd and is completely disparate from the other (academic and employer) ratings.

TheBody

NiallSparky wrote: »

It's ranked 15th in the World.

Those rating systems are VERY limited. What the op should consider is what the department has to offer. I am presuming from the tone of the op's post that they consider themselves good at maths. Perhaps they will consider postgraduate work after their primary degree. So things I would look for are:

• Publishing record of the staff
• Is there a maths support centre? (If there is, how many hours is it open etc)
• How flexible is the dept with regards choice of subjects?
• Do they offer any scholarships for undergraduates?
• What funding opportunities are there for postgraduate work?

Sure Trinity might be the most famous university in Ireland but that's not to say it has the best maths dept in the country. If you are good enough, a potential supervisor for a phd won't really care what Irish university you came from. They will be more interested in the references you get from the head of the dept. The heads are usually know internationally from conferences etc.



Good luck what ever you choose op. Good mathematicians are a rare breed!!

ZorbaTehZ

I'm not trying to fly the flag for Trinity but I thought I would answer your questions anyways

TheBody wrote: »

• Publishing record of the staff

It speaks for itself, go look it up. 100 in the academic rating wasn't for nothing!

TheBody wrote: »

• Is there a maths support centre? (If there is, how many hours is it open etc)

Yes, but it's run voluntary by students with support (I think) from the department.

TheBody wrote: »

• How flexible is the dept with regards choice of subjects?

Not much in the first two years - you only have one choice. In third and fourth year there are no mandatory subjects, you choose entirely what you want to do.

TheBody wrote: »

• Do they offer any scholarships for undergraduates?

None significant for first year except for your usual exhibition scholarships, and some awards for exceptional performance, but in second year you can choose to sit examinations for scholarship which are (supposedly) the most prestigious in Europe. You get free accommodation, meals and a stipend for 4 years.

TheBody wrote: »

• What funding opportunities are there for postgraduate work?

This, I cannot answer. But if you do receive scholarship as mentioned above then this is good for post-grad. years as well.

eoins23456

I think i heard maynooth had a really good maths department. University of Limericks Maths Department is pretty good.MACSI a research company the provides solutions to industrial problems using mathematical modelling is set up on campus and they can help you with your final year project.Those rankings are absolute ****.

TheBody

eoins23456 wrote: »

I think i heard maynooth had a really good maths department. University of Limericks Maths Department is pretty good.MACSI a research company the provides solutions to industrial problems using mathematical modelling is set up on campus and they can help you with your final year project.Those rankings are absolute ****.

Personally I'd give my vote to the maths dept in Maynooth. Lots of info on their website:

www.maths.nuim.ie

Also check out the maths support centre website:

http://supportcentre.maths.nuim.ie/

Fremen

Any of the universities you mentioned would be better than what Ireland could offer for maths (well, actually I don't know about LSE). At undergrad level, they might not be that much better though. Do be aware that you're adding an extra 50-100 grand on to your education depending on what your Irish options are. The question is whether it's worth it. You would be paying down debt for most of your adult life.

Look through the Cambridge and Imperial course outlines, and compare them to those of Irish universities. The titles won't mean much, but you might get a sense of what's on offer at various places.

I spent some time at Imperial myself. The UK universities really stand out against the Irish ones at MSc level. The range of courses offered there is vastly larger than anything available in Ireland. One possible option is to do an undergrad in Ireland, do your own reading alongside coursework if you can, and apply for Cambridge/Imperial once you've done your undergrad if you're still hungry for more.

equivariant

Fremen wrote: »

Any of the universities you mentioned would be better than what Ireland could offer for maths (well, actually I don't know about LSE). At undergrad level, they might not be that much better though. Do be aware that you're adding an extra 50-100 grand on to your education depending on what your Irish options are. The question is whether it's worth it. You would be paying down debt for most of your adult life.

Look through the Cambridge and Imperial course outlines, and compare them to those of Irish universities. The titles won't mean much, but you might get a sense of what's on offer at various places.

I spent some time at Imperial myself. The UK universities really stand out against the Irish ones at MSc level. The range of courses offered there is vastly larger than anything available in Ireland. One possible option is to do an undergrad in Ireland, do your own reading alongside coursework if you can, and apply for Cambridge/Imperial once you've done your undergrad if you're still hungry for more.

You raise an interesting point about the cost of the education. To play devil's advocate here, it is also worth considering how much more valuable a degree from Cambridge or even Warwick would be vs an Irish degree. Depending on career path it might well compensate for the extra cost of the education

On the quality of undergrad education, I would say this. It is probably true that most Irish universities (and certainly tcd) offer a good selection of undergrad courses. However, at a place like Cambridge the environment is entirely different to anything that an Irish uni can offer. I was talking to former Irish Olympiad team member (who won a medal at the IMO) a few years back about this. He went on to study at cambridge at he said that his first year there was like a reunion party for all the recent Olympiad gold medallists. An environment like this can be invaluable as you are constantly exposed to an extremely high level of mathematical talent both from fellow students and from the faculty. Unifortunately, such a environment is not available at any Irish institution (even tcd).

Anonymo

equivariant wrote: »

You raise an interesting point about the cost of the education. To play devil's advocate here, it is also worth considering how much more valuable a degree from Cambridge or even Warwick would be vs an Irish degree. Depending on career path it might well compensate for the extra cost of the education

On the quality of undergrad education, I would say this. It is probably true that most Irish universities (and certainly tcd) offer a good selection of undergrad courses. However, at a place like Cambridge the environment is entirely different to anything that an Irish uni can offer. I was talking to former Irish Olympiad team member (who won a medal at the IMO) a few years back about this. He went on to study at cambridge at he said that his first year there was like a reunion party for all the recent Olympiad gold medallists. An environment like this can be invaluable as you are constantly exposed to an extremely high level of mathematical talent both from fellow students and from the faculty. Unifortunately, such a environment is not available at any Irish institution (even tcd).

Having done my undergrad in UCD and my phd in Cambridge I probably have a little bit of insight on this one. There are some really bright undergrads in Cambridge but I think the average level of those in the maths degree i did in ucd was probably higher. cambridge is a fantastic place, but most of the advantage of such places is in their research departments. you probably won't get to sample any of this advantage until masters/phd level. some people that are really good sink in a place like cambridge due to how intense the terms are. the stuff isn't necessarily more difficult, it's just more condensed. i'm glad i didn't do my undergrad there because i got a better chance to develop at my own pace in Dublin. tcd and ucd have really good undergrad programs with maynooth and ucc not far behind. there are plenty of people that do maths in these places that end up in top unis all over the world. Some of the people that did the degree with me ended up in Yale, Imperial, McGill, etc.

cartier

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

It speaks for itself, go look it up.

Ok, I did. It does appear to speak for itself.

According to MathSciNet, here are the number of publications for each permanent member of staff in mathematics at TCD:

O'Donovan - 11
Timoney - 41
Stalker - 13
Zaitsev - 45
Karageorgis - 9
Kitson - 4
Dunlaing - 23
Tange - 8
Vergara-Diaz - 2
Vlasenko - 11
Wilkins - 10

This is a total of 177 publications. As a comparison, here are the number of publications for each permanent member of staff in mathematics at UCD:

Astier - 12
Boyd - 38
Byrne - 16
Dineen - 123
Gardiner - 95
Ghergu - 35
Gow - 85
Greferath - 36
Higgs - 28
Hutchinson - 12
Levene - 7
Lewis - 62
Mackey - 14
McGuire - 48
Meehan - 22
Mellon - 20
Osburn - 21
O'Searcoid - 17
Render - 67
Smigoc - 14
Smith - 9
Sullivan - 26
Unger - 11

This is a total of 818 publications.

Fremen

cartier wrote: »

Ok, I did. It does appear to speak for itself.

...

I think citations per head would be a much better metric of quality than raw number of publications, but even that isn't perfect. Some papers solve a problem so completely that they kill off a whole field, so they don't get cited as much as they otherwise might.

One groundbreaking paper is much more significant than five mediocre ones.

Anonymo

Fremen wrote: »

I think citations per head would be a much better metric of quality than raw number of publications, but even that isn't perfect. Some papers solve a problem so completely that they kill off a whole field, so they don't get cited as much as they otherwise might.

One groundbreaking paper is much more significant than five mediocre ones.

agree fully with your last point. the tcd stats are a bit skewed however because they include areas in their maths department that really should be in physics - they've lots of string theory people. and a lot more people work in string theory than on integer eigenvalue number theory problems for example. citations per head is probably the fairest system but in this case there is not a like-for-like comparison.

cartier

Anonymo wrote: »

citations per head is probably the fairest system but in this case there is not a like-for-like comparison.

Again, via MathSciNet, here are the number of citations per head (in the same order as above):

TCD:

1) 15
2) 330
3) 76
4) 272
5) 34
6) 2
7) 28
8) 26
9) 6
10) 23
11) 31

UCD:

1) 13
2) 139
3) 50
4) 957
5) 286
6) 229
7) 237
8) 101
9) 12
10) 39
11) 7
12) 140
13) 16
14) 99
15) 183
16) 76
17) 41
18) 13
19) 105
20) 41
21) 14
22) 88
23) 17

Also, the tcd stats are not skewed as staff who work in physics (e.g., string theory) are not listed.

Anonymo

cartier wrote: »

Again, via MathSciNet, here are the number of citations per head (in the same order as above):

TCD:

1) 15
2) 330
3) 76
4) 272
5) 34
6) 2
7) 28
8) 26
9) 6
10) 23
11) 31

UCD:

1) 13
2) 139
3) 50
4) 957
5) 286
6) 229
7) 237
8) 101
9) 12
10) 39
11) 7
12) 140
13) 16
14) 99
15) 183
16) 76
17) 41
18) 13
19) 105
20) 41
21) 14
22) 88
23) 17

Also, the tcd stats are not skewed as staff who work in physics (e.g., string theory) are not listed.

don't want to get into semantics too much because i agree with what you're saying in general. however, i'm fairly sure that the ranking system that put tcd at 15th in the world must have included people working on math physics doing things related to string theory e.g. conformal field theory etc. nonetheless i think we'd both agree that for the purposes of undergrad education there is little or no difference in quality between tcd and ucd.

cartier

Anonymo wrote: »

however, i'm fairly sure that the ranking system that put tcd at 15th in the world must have included people working on math physics doing things related to string theory e.g. conformal field theory etc.

Ah, apologies. I thought that you meant that the data I listed for tcd was skewed. The point is that I only listed mathematicians.

I strongly agree with your statement concerning the ranking system.

Anonymo wrote: »

nonetheless i think we'd both agree that for the purposes of undergrad education there is little or no difference in quality between tcd and ucd.

I also agree with that. The problem is that not many people (e.g. parents, students, ...) in Ireland seem to know (or believe) this.

Eliot Rosewater

I'm a third year mathematics undergrad in UCC.

There is no doubt that having a mathematics undergrad from Cambridge, Imperial etc. is better than one from UCC or any other Irish university, but I don't think having a degree from an Irish university is a barrier. Many graduates from Irish universities have very successful academic careers. A graduate of my course in the 90s did his PhD in Princeton, and is now a professor in Sweden. A late 90s graduate skipped about before doing a PhD in the Philosophy of Science in LSE, where he is now staff. A more recent graduate of my course is currently pursuing a PhD in the (Ivy-league, very prestigious) Cornell University. To me it seems the biggest hurdle is not your undergraduate institution but rather your determination.


I didn't consider going anywhere but UCC, as I lived nearby and had a very small world-view at the time. The main benefit for me has been living at home, which has allowed me to devote more time to study and recreation than I otherwise would have had. And the money thing, too.

I don't find the course overwhelming, and any lack of a challenge can be made up by reading on the side. My main criticism of UCC maths is the atmosphere amongst the students. No disrespect to others in my class who read this, but I am probably the only one in my class who is really interested in and excited by maths, and that can be a bit of dampener. I share most of my enthusiasm with my girlfriend rather than my classmates.

That, for me, would be the biggest advantage of going somewhere like Cambridge: you'd be surrounded by a number of very interested peers. (Not everyone, of course: Cambridge maths has a prestige appeal that pulls many people who aren't actually interested.)

cartier

cartier wrote: »

Ah, apologies. I thought that you meant that the data I listed for tcd was skewed. The point is that I only listed mathematicians.

I strongly agree with your statement concerning the ranking system.



I also agree with that. The problem is that not many people (e.g. parents, students, ...) in Ireland seem to know (or believe) this.

The standard of instruction that I've received at UCD has probably been comparable to what my friends in Trinity have learned.

That said, the modularised system in UCD is a bit of a hindrance at times, and I think I'm the only one in my course with an interest in pursuing maths at graduate level. There's probably more of a community spirit about doing maths in Trinity. Certainly the number of people who take maths is always higher.

cartier

a more realistic list of top universities in mathematics:

http://www.shanghairanking.com/SubjectMathematics2012.html

CJC86

cartier wrote: »

a more realistic list of top universities in mathematics:

http://www.shanghairanking.com/SubjectMathematics2012.html

Having a look at your other posts you seem to have some sort of vendetta against Trinity that you didn't actually bother to research how the ranking was achieved. I don't for a second believe that the Trinity Maths Dept is in the top 15 in the world. I'd be surprised at top 50 tbh, but it's all about how the rankings are done, which is a very subjective process.

Of course, they all try to pretend they are objective, but none of them achieve this. Trinity's ridiculous 100 in the citation mark last year was due to how they decided to measure the citations. The way they measured it was taking the number of citations from an institution (note: citations from institution, so it matters where you wrote the paper, not where you are at the moment) in what they deemed to be "mathematics journals" and then divided it by the number of people from the department who had published in these "mathematics journals". Then, they ranked each institution compared to the top institution, which hilariously was Trinity.

They took a rather more sensible view than you took as to what is a mathematics journal, since a good chunk of modern mathematics is theoretical physics.

I'm not sure about these rankings, because Chicago, Yale and MIT should be higher than UCLA, but perhaps they are more reflective of reality. I'd still consider Trinity to be top 100, but again, it's all subjective.

Justin1982

At the end of the day, your career prospects, whatever they may be, will essentially come down to how hard you work during the 4 years you are doing the degree, your determination and your own actual ability as a mathematician.

Trinity or UCD, its six of one and half a dozen of the other. Similarly for Cambridge or anywhere else.
I've studied at Trinity. It has its flaws and it has its strong points.

Trinity definitely aims to be as good a maths department as anywhere else in the world and they definitely have some top name Mathematicians and in particular they have top Theoretical Physicists.

But for you as a student, its way more important that you have good lecturers. Trinity has its fair share of really top notch lecturers but it also has some fairly brutal ones as well who are giving lectures in really important Maths and TP subjects.
But I suspect all universities have this problem to some extent.

Personally I'd look for a university which has the best lecturers and pay little attention to how much prestige the University has. It counts for pants when your sitting in an exam hall and facing an exam that your lecturer has not prepared you for properly.

TheBody

Justin1982 wrote: »

At the end of the day, your career prospects, whatever they may be, will essentially come down to how hard you work during the 4 years you are doing the degree, your determination and your own actual ability as a mathematician.

Trinity or UCD, its six of one and half a dozen of the other. Similarly for Cambridge or anywhere else.
I've studied at Trinity. It has its flaws and it has its strong points.

Trinity definitely aims to be as good a maths department as anywhere else in the world and they definitely have some top name Mathematicians and in particular they have top Theoretical Physicists.

But for you as a student, its way more important that you have good lecturers. Trinity has its fair share of really top notch lecturers but it also has some fairly brutal ones as well who are giving lectures in really important Maths and TP subjects.
But I suspect all universities have this problem to some extent.

Personally I'd look for a university which has the best lecturers and pay little attention to how much prestige the University has. It counts for pants when your sitting in an exam hall and facing an exam that your lecturer has not prepared you for properly.

Well said.

eyescreamcone

If you got an offer for Cambridge you'd be mad to turn it down, in my opinion.

Jan Hus

Princeton is the best uni in the world for maths - Cambridge the second

eyescreamcone

Maybe,
But I would imagine that a Princeton degree would cost an awful lot more than a Cambridge degree.

Michael Collins

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Maybe,
But I would imagine that a Princeton degree would cost an awful lot more than a Cambridge degree.

Agreed, and besides, the difference between the so-called best and second best universities largely comes down to yourself I'd say - i.e. how much effort you put in. Even the terms best and second best are rather meaningless - there are too many factors to consider to legitimately reduce an entire undergradute program to a single score (which is done in the university rankings), and furthermore those scores are usually part-based on research output, which, while a positive reflection on the college as a whole, obviously doesn't mean much when it comes down to the teaching ability of the staff - which is probably the most important aspect of an undergraduate course.