Does your atheism lead you to reject nationalism as well?

Amtmann

I hold that both religiosity (whether you're Pagan or Catholic or Muslim or Hindu) and nationalism (as manifested in passionate feelings of Irishness or American-ness or Englishness or German-ness) are memes that are objectively baseless and irrational. They are both cultural constructs, requiring something of a herd mentality to flourish. I reject both as absurd.

Do you find that as an atheist, you've also bade farewell to nationalism?

Zombrex

Pretty much, nationalism is simply a form of tribalism.

Of course saying that it would be silly to deny that there is an instinct in all of us to tend towards tribalism. But as you say we can recognize the inherent irrationality of this.

So while I happily cheer for the Irish football team (including shouting over to a group of French supporters in a Belgian bar "CHEATING BASTARDS") notions popular in groups like the BNP and other hard line nationalists parties are just stupid and ignorant.

I don';t think it is atheism that leads to this though, more reason and critical thinking lead to a whole host of outlooks, including the rejection of theism and the rejection of nationalism.

28064212

Does your atheism lead you to reject nationalism as well?

Poor choice of thread title. It's more my rationality that leads me to reject both atheism and nationalism, one doesn't lead to the other. While I would imagine the correlation between atheists and... anti-nationalists? is high, it doesn't imply causation

Enkidu

Tremelo wrote: »

I hold that both religiosity (whether you're Pagan or Catholic or Muslim or Hindu) and nationalism (as manifested in passionate feelings of Irishness or American-ness or Englishness or German-ness) are memes that are objectively baseless and irrational. They are both cultural constructs, requiring something of a herd mentality to flourish. I reject both as absurd.

Do you find that as an atheist, you've also bade farewell to nationalism?

I'd actually have some possible objection to the notion of memes. I've never really seen the concept supported in proper empirical analysis, although there have been some worthwhile attempts at it.

Separate to that, I would agree with Zombrex that one would reject aggressive tribalism as a result of more considered thinking, rather than a direct result of atheism. However, I'm not really sure why you would define nationalism as passionate feelings of "X-ness", some/most people will naturally feel attached to their home culture and I don't see anything irrational about that. For me nationalism would be an unsupported and possibly violently manifested belief in the superiority of your culture above others.

Amtmann

Zombrex wrote: »

I don';t think it is atheism that leads to this though, more reason and critical thinking lead to a whole host of outlooks, including the rejection of theism and the rejection of nationalism.

That's a good point. The cause in the first instance is a lack of susceptibility to group-think and, as you say, ability in critical thinking. I suspect, though, that when the scales fall from your eyes in terms of belief in the supernatural, the way is clear for other beliefs to fall by the wayside, too.

dlofnep

I don't think you can use the word nationalism in a catch-all sense. There are various forms of nationalists - those who appreciate culture, language and the small nuances that can only be found in their country - and those who feel that their culture, race and country is better than others.

I don't think there is anything irrational about rallying behind your national sports theme, or taking a vested interest in one's language, culture, history or music. We are human, and not robots.

28064212

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think you can use the word nationalism in a catch-all sense. There are various forms of nationalists - those who appreciate culture, language and the small nuances that can only be found in their country - and those who feel that their culture, race and country is better than others.

I don't think there is anything irrational about rallying behind your national sports theme, or taking a vested interest in one's language, culture, history or music. We are human, and not robots.

True, patriotism is probably a better word. Essentially, irrational belief in your country's/locality's superiority

Jimoslimos

I think the shift away from nationalism in atheists would only occur in countries with strong religious influences, "Jewish Israel" "Islamic Iran" and "Catholic Ireland - until recently"

Take a non-religious (albeit rather spiritual) country like Japan and you'd struggle to find anywhere else more patriotic, never mind nationalist.

AhSureTisGrand

Nationalism is largely irrational. Religion is one of the main things in the world which enables someone to be wildly irrational. From there the nationalism could come in.

It could come from other places too, though

Skrynesaver

The notion that my country is the best because I was born there is certainly tempting but, sadly, irrational and so has to be rejected.

However harmless expressions of tribalism at sporting events is a different matter and quite fun.

I'd say my internationalism and atheism probably have common roots.

Delirium

I'm going to say no. It was because I had English cousins that I grew up not to be a fan of nationalism, as the only type that seemed to appear was the "f*ck the English" kind.

Galvasean

Skrynesaver wrote: »

The notion that my country is the best because I was born there is certainly tempting but, sadly, irrational and so has to be rejected.

However harmless expressions of tribalism at sporting events is a different matter and quite fun.

I'd say my internationalism and atheism probably have common roots.

^^ That's me in a nutshell.

ShooterSF

Galvasean wrote: »

^^ That's me in a nutshell.

and do you believe your nutshell is better than everyone elses?

Shenshen

Tremelo wrote: »

I hold that both religiosity (whether you're Pagan or Catholic or Muslim or Hindu) and nationalism (as manifested in passionate feelings of Irishness or American-ness or Englishness or German-ness) are memes that are objectively baseless and irrational. They are both cultural constructs, requiring something of a herd mentality to flourish. I reject both as absurd.

Do you find that as an atheist, you've also bade farewell to nationalism?

If anything, the other way around.
I found nationalism the hight of stupidity well before I gave up believing in "something out there".

robindch

dlofnep wrote: »

There are various forms of nationalists - those who appreciate culture, language and the small nuances that can only be found in their country - and those who feel that their culture, race and country is better than others.

The two ideas are roughly enclosed by the terms "civic nationalism" and "ethnic nationalism":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism

Faintly editing what some wise person once said, a civic nationalist loves his/her country, while an ethnic nationalist hates everybody else's.

Amtmann

robindch wrote: »

The terms are civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism

Faintly editing what some wise person once said, a civic nationalist loves his/her country, while an ethnic nationalist hates everybody else's.

Interesting replies so far. What I don't understand is why a love of nation is automatic in so many people. It is a fluke of birth where you're born.

As such, I do not understand why anyone would or should feel an inherent 'national pride'. For me, to take pride in something, I first have to have achieved whatever that something is. I did not achieve being Irish. I just *happened* to be born here. Naturally this outlook would also apply if I had happened to be born in any other country.

Now, I can understand civic pride, where you and your fellow citizens cooperate to do something good that enhances your community or the state that you live in. I understand pride in this vein. But automatic national pride, simply because you're born into an indefinable culture (no one can adequately define cultural or ethnic Irishness/German-ness/Norweigneness, etc) that is as man-made as any religion, escapes me. To me, it's very similar to religious belief. Both are objectively irrational in my opinion - and destructive.

robindch

Tremelo wrote: »

automatic national pride [...] it's very similar to religious belief.

Like religion, it's primarily an emotional response -- for a range of reasons, some people simply feel the need to belong to a tribe and choose to trade aspects of their own personal identity for the warming embrace of group membership.

maximoose

Shenshen wrote: »

If anything, the other way around.
I found nationalism the hight of stupidity well before I gave up believing in "something out there".

Snap.

I remember being 11/12 when I started to realise how idiotic and ridiculous people can be due to nationalism and patriotism - growing up in a loyalist town in NI, my oh my you witness some truly retarded things

Wasn't until I was around 15/16 when I really started to question religion

Peregrinus

It must depend on what you mean by “nationalism”.

In political theory, nationalism is the idea that the nation, a group of people bound together by a common history, language, culture, identity, etc, is an appropriate basis for the state, or the idea that it’s appropriate for each nation to govern itself. It was nationalism that led Germany and Italy to unify themselves as states in the 19th century, and that led to the breakup of the Austrian empire into independent states in the 20th century, and of course the independence of Ireland.

You don’t have to agree with this as a philosophy, but I can’t see anything irrational about it, and there’s no obvious connection between the rejection of nationalism and the acceptance of atheism.

sensibleken

nationalism is a confused term here. quite a lot of irish people hate anything irish because the culture allied itself too much to parochialism, catholicism, anti-british nonsense and violence. Its something that really suprises foreigners i know who teach irish studies abroad and here.

I often get accused of being nationalist in that I play irish music several times a week, read irish history and mythology almost exclusively, spend a lot of my time visiting heritage sites, have tried and failed to learn irish. I also think of myself as having a bit of pride in my country, as in wanting to improve our society and willingly making sacrifices for that end. So i would describe myself as a Gaelophile.

marienbad

The rejection of both is just the product of a skeptical mind I would think.I have met deepy religious people who are profoundly anti-nationalist. Though that might just be the supra national nature of religion kicking in.

I love the tribal nature of sport though- forget France , the whole Munster/Leinster Rugby thing is just brilliant - you can't beat civil war eh ?

robindch

sensibleken wrote: »

nationalism is a confused term here.

Not if you distinguish between ethic and civic nationalism, as above

sensibleken

robindch wrote: »

Not if you distinguish between ethic and civic nationalism, as above

sorry by here, i meant ireland

gbee

I don't tend to dismiss Nationalism as such but the whole notion that we even need to be 'governed' at all and have to go to war as example because my leader says so.

Otherwise tribe like communities or communes like the Hippies in the 60s, why not?

BluntGuy

Tremelo wrote: »

Now, I can understand civic pride, where you and your fellow citizens cooperate to do something good that enhances your community or the state that you live in. I understand pride in this vein.

I am guilty myself of using the phrase "proud of Ireland" when what I really mean to say is "proud of something citizens that live in Ireland have achieved". It's just easier to say in common parlance - the distinction would be lost on many people anyway. I can relate to your point though. I found that once I lost (my somewhat limited, I must say) "faith", the notion of automatically feeling "patriotic" towards "my" country felt fairly empty.

Though it must be said I wasn't born in Ireland (though I am "Irish" by "blood" as one might say) so I suppose I've never had a particularly strong "national identity" to lose. Even as a child, I never really "got" why people teared up at national anthems which all sound virtually the same. I always found that rather superficial. I also found the lack of civic action many people take to better their society, somewhat incongruous with the level to which they declare they "love" their country. And I've always had, I suppose, an outsider's perspective of things here.

I would think now that I maintain a healthy sense of civic pride. Though I suppose when I was younger, had realised for myself the flaws in taking things based on tradition and faith, and was going through a stage of self-discovery, in a somewhat reactionary manner, I oversimplified it for myself and almost threw out the idea of collective pride altogether with the blind nationalism - feeling that it would be my individual achievements upon which I'd be judged. Of course this is true, but part of the essence of living in society obviously is sharing in the achievements and failures of others (particularly the failures, as we all know at the moment). So my opinion matured. I realised that throwing everything out as hollow and vacuous was irrational in itself, born from a fear of being nationalistic, and from that a more reasoned, rational and indeed genuine feeling of responsibility towards the country I live in developed.

So yes, I definitely think the kind of thought process that losing religion can open one to, certainly can help rid one of nationalism. For me it did more than that and helped me develop a genuine sense of civic pride and responsibility rather than the empty notions of "pride", which many people have.

checkyabadself

Whilst my questioning of religion and subsequent atheism came before I questioned nationalism, it was not in itself the cause. I wasn`t too conflicted with nationalism when I was questioning religion, to me nationalism was harmless acts of ceremony that were kept going out of tradition.

When I came to grips with being agnostic with regards to a creator and atheist in respect of the documented deities, I began to question nationalism and national pride in terms of identity. I come from a relaxed a la carte catholic family that is pretty nationalist, in the ethnic sense that is borne more from lack of knowledge of other cultures and fear of questioning their own faith and national pride, rather than holding their religious and nationalistic views as superior.

To this end I spent most of my life thinking that it was okay to "shout for Ireland" en masse regardless of wheter it was just or noble to do so. Funnily enough it is my love of the game of rugby that really led me to lose any national pride I may have thought I had. I started to notice how desperate it seemed watching people who would rather their team won at any cost even if done so unfairly. It struck me as odd that someone could love a game but park their sense of justice when the cards were tipped in their favour. This example may seem petty but this excuseable lapse in moral judgement made me think further about the topic.

My favourite quote to sum up my feelings towards nationality is......

I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of this world - Socrates.

neilled

Tremelo wrote: »

I hold that both religiosity (whether you're Pagan or Catholic or Muslim or Hindu) and nationalism (as manifested in passionate feelings of Irishness or American-ness or Englishness or German-ness) are memes that are objectively baseless and irrational. They are both cultural constructs, requiring something of a herd mentality to flourish. I reject both as absurd.

Do you find that as an atheist, you've also bade farewell to nationalism?

Atheism is just the absence of belief in a deity. I find the constructivist view of ethnicity and identity more convincing than the primordial theory.

The primodrialist view point would go something like this - nationalities are intrinsic parts of who we are - its in the blood and provides a common bond. Its bound up in part of the building blocks of the nation state myth - that of a shared common identity or ancestry which is more than often not tied in with religion.

Constructivists would take the view that ethnic groups are "manufacturered" by entrepreneurs - they they centralising monarchs such as the bourbons of france or nationalists looking to split from a larger state or empire. Basically its a crock, although simple and easy to the constructivist view of the state and what it should be are rather different.

The primordial view is one that indeed is most simple for those to understand, it relies upon simple, tribal and unsophisticated ethnic nationalism. I find it no surprise that those who are drawn to religion would be drawn towards the primordial school of thinking on this topic because it offers quite a simple black and white, good vs evil definition of "them and us".

The constructivist view is alot more complex and relies on its followers to adopt an approach based on a sort of civic republicanism based on the acceptance of multiple identities within a state and creating a state that can meet the needs of all citizens - quite complex, it doesn't offer that black or white that ethnonationalism does and to my mind its little wonder that most people just don't get it - it challenges the simple orthodoxy that they were raised with.

On a personal level, my job means that I serve the state out of be belief of serving the people, however I view it as a transient entity - the Irish state in 1922 was very different that that of 1952, 2002 and the one it will be 2012 etc, indeed after I am dead and buried it may not even exist at all. In my case the place of my birth and upbringing are rather different, indeed i could have been brought up in any number of different places and I believe myself to be an example of how ethnicity or nationality can be manufactured or created.