A scheme that should be implemented

WalterMitty

Considering our government is encouraging young well educated graduates to work for their dole to gain experience i would like to propose a scheme where recently retired public servants with considerable experience in their field of work can voluntarily come back into public service and provide their expertese for no renummeration.

Basic expenses of attending work could be provided. This scheme would apply to high level public sector workers like managers, doctors, high ranking Garda , etc etc and would only be part time. Doing some work in retirement is recignised as beneficial to ones physical and mentla health and doing what you are good at is actually good for your hapiness (according to psychological studies , see seligman et al).

Those who participate would have their names published on a public website if they wish,recognising their contribute to out public services in its time of need. Those who refuse to do any part time voluntary service should be named as they are in receipt of public funds. A simple "declined" could be placed beside their names.

ILikeBananas

Or instead, if they're teachers they could continue to do their old job on a 'temporary cover' basis whilst receiving their full pensions like loads of them are doing right now

WalterMitty

ILikeBananas wrote: »

Or instead, if they're teachers they could continue to do their old job on a 'temporary cover' basis whilst receiving their full pensions like loads of them are doing right now

No because such teachers are getting paid on top of pension AFAIK leaving less resources to employ new young teachers.

andrew

I don't think a scheme which lets people work for free would be that effective. On the one hand they'd have their name published on a web site with DENIED, but on the other hand they'd still be enjoying retirement on a decent pension and consuming significant amounts of leisure.

RichardAnd

My experience of retired civil servants leads me to believe very few of them would want to go back to their old jobs. It's possible that a very specialised individual that worked in the National Library might want to indulge a hobby from time to time but I just can't see anyone on a pension going into work without extra remuneration being offered.

Anyway, this whole working for free nonsense should be knocked on the head. There are times it can be beneficial (volunteer work for charities) but a job should come with a fair wage.

Sleepy

Doubt it's implementable, during a 3 month spell of unemployment I wanted to keep the mind sharp so offered my services free of charge to the local council(an organisation which had previously paid my ex-employer four figure sums per day of my time) and they told me they couldn't accept. :eek:

To be completely honest, I was trying to get a foot in the door in order to have a shot at a full time job but it seems crazy to me that a public sector body could turn down an offer of over 20k worth of services because of paperwork!

amacca

Sleepy wrote: »

To be completely honest, I was trying to get a foot in the door in order to have a shot at a full time job but it seems crazy to me that a public sector body could turn down an offer of over 20k worth of services because of paperwork!

would they not have a duty of care to you even if you were working for free....would they not be afraid of insurance claims (even if you waived liability), confidentiality etc etc...there must be a number of other issues here

I believe I would treat someone offering their services for free with a certain amount of suspicion....+ I'm not sure I would want any old Tom, Dick and Harry (no personal offence intended) to gain access to offices with my personal details on file

OP...I think its a terrible Idea that someone who has retired would have declined or denied published beside their name after retiring under the rules of their contract/pension just because they refused to work for free......would it not just be better to publish only the names of those who did (that is if they wanted the information made public in the first place

Sleepy

I'd have already cleared all their confidentiality requirements when working for my previous employer, like I said, I was known to these people, not just Tom, Dick or Harry coming in off the street. No offence taken though.

Duty of care etc. wouldn't be an issue if they had taken me on as an 'unpaid work experience intern' or whatever. For the value of what was being offered, it would have been well worth the hour or two of dealing with the idiot in their HR department. I think that it boiled down to either:

(a) Not caring enough about the job they were doing to be prepared to go through the headache of dealing with said HR idiot.

or

(b) Not wanting to be shown up by someone with a work ethic on a continual basis.

Honestly, the reaction I've gotten from most public servants when opting to work through their tea breaks and have a sandwich at the desk instead of taking an hour for lunch tends to be one of either bemusement or bewilderment. You're made to almost feel guilty for it and often end up having to make excuses such as "ah, it's a long drive home and I don't want to be stuck late" etc... Not saying they're all like this, I've know PS employees that have been there with me until 2am rectifying server melt-downs etc but they're the exception rather than the rule in my experience.

Gumbo

Sleepy wrote: »

Honestly, the reaction I've gotten from most public servants when opting to work through their tea breaks and have a sandwich at the desk instead of taking an hour for lunch tends to be one of either bemusement or bewilderment. You're made to almost feel guilty for it and often end up having to make excuses such as "ah, it's a long drive home and I don't want to be stuck late" etc... Not saying they're all like this, I've know PS employees that have been there with me until 2am rectifying server melt-downs etc but they're the exception rather than the rule in my experience.

Lunch breaks are precisely that, a break, so why would you be alarmed that somebody takes them?

i took every single lunch break in all my jobs, but the big difference in the PS that i found is the core hours and clocking in and out. So you cannot work through your lunch currently in my place, you have to physically swipe out for 30 mins then swipe back in. my luch 30 mins must be taken between the hours of 12 and 2.30, if i dont take it during this time i get an infraction and cannot take it later in the afternoon etc

are times really that bad that people now begrudge a person a lunch break, whether that be public or private?

Sleepy

Not the lunch break, no... the half hour tea breaks in the morning and afternoon when the person arrives to the office at 10:25 and leaves at 4:45 (when supposed to be doing a 9 to 5), i.e. works for the grand total of less than 4 1/2 hours and spends most of that day dodging any responsibility they can...

In the case I described above, I had a 3 hour drive each way and was there for 10 to meet her. In other words: I spent longer travelling to the job than she did working and did a full day's work on top of that.

I've seen the compulsory clocking in some PS environments alright. I've also seen staff (both here and in the UK) that clock for the half hour / hour they're supposed to take but work through anyway when under pressure to meet a deadline.

Godge

WalterMitty wrote: »

Considering our government is encouraging young well educated graduates to work for their dole to gain experience i would like to propose a scheme where recently retired public servants with considerable experience in their field of work can voluntarily come back into public service and provide their expertese for no renummeration.

Basic expenses of attending work could be provided. This scheme would apply to high level public sector workers like managers, doctors, high ranking Garda , etc etc and would only be part time. Doing some work in retirement is recignised as beneficial to ones physical and mentla health and doing what you are good at is actually good for your hapiness (according to psychological studies , see seligman et al).

Those who participate would have their names published on a public website if they wish,recognising their contribute to out public services in its time of need. Those who refuse to do any part time voluntary service should be named as they are in receipt of public funds. A simple "declined" could be placed beside their names.

You have a great user name that matches your posts. They are based in as much reality as the original Walter Mitty. Why would someone who has worked hard all their life give up their well-earned retirement for nothing? Do you understand anything about psychology or motivation?

Aren't we trying to get the public sector thinking more like the private sector? In that case, wouldn't it make more sense for the public servant with rare skills and experience to retire as early as possible with the best deal and sell his unique skills back to the public sector at the highest rate possible? That is what a private sector expert would do.

All of the other posts listing "I know this public servant that turns up at 10.25 etc. etc." are only anecdotal experiences. I know some public servants who are lazy. I know some private sector workers who are lazy. Both cases have pulled the wool over someone's eyes and get away with it. It is not something unique to the public sector.

I also know public servants who work 50 and 60-hour weeks without any extra reward. You wouldn't get that from a private sector worker without promising a large bonus or paying big money.

Naming and shaming retired people who won't volunteer is just vindictive and small-minded, typical of the Irish private sector "gombeen man" beloved of the FF politician, you know the type, he is publican, accountant, farmer and auctioneer in his local village.

mikemac1

Sleepy wrote: »

Doubt it's implementable, during a 3 month spell of unemployment I wanted to keep the mind sharp so offered my services free of charge to the local council(an organisation which had previously paid my ex-employer four figure sums per day of my time) and they told me they couldn't accept. :eek:

To be completely honest, I was trying to get a foot in the door in order to have a shot at a full time job but it seems crazy to me that a public sector body could turn down an offer of over 20k worth of services because of paperwork!

Councils around the country are letting staff go and sending them to the dole queues.

I can see why they didn't take you on.
You would be Mr. Unpopular in that office or road crew or whatever you were planning.
The council letting staff go and now new hires are coming to work for free and looking to get full time work

If the union didn't step in they should have

Wouldn't you feel threatened watching your colleagues get let go and then eager staff coming in on no salary and wanting your job?

Gumbo

Sleepy wrote: »

Not the lunch break, no... the half hour tea breaks in the morning and afternoon when the person arrives to the office at 10:25 and leaves at 4:45 (when supposed to be doing a 9 to 5), i.e. works for the grand total of less than 4 1/2 hours and spends most of that day dodging any responsibility they can...

In the case I described above, I had a 3 hour drive each way and was there for 10 to meet her. In other words: I spent longer travelling to the job than she did working and did a full day's work on top of that.

I've seen the compulsory clocking in some PS environments alright. I've also seen staff (both here and in the UK) that clock for the half hour / hour they're supposed to take but work through anyway when under pressure to meet a deadline.

I'm gona print this post out and use it as evidence when asking my boss for a 30 minute breaks in the morning and afternoon

I get a breakfast break of about 15 mins but not the afternoon. We have a kitchenette thing where we're expected to make a cup of tea for ourselves to avoid all that crap.

murphaph

As I mentioned before, my mother works in a council building (but not for the council). They shut the whole place down yesterday evening (4pm!) for xmas. Christmas is on friggin Sunday and these guys have shut up shop on Thursday (afternoon).

Council workers are probably the most work shy of all in the PS (not all of them, as Sleepy says there are exceptions there that are dedicated and hardworking, but they are indeed exceptions)

largepants

murphaph wrote: »

As I mentioned before, my mother works in a council building (but not for the council). They shut the whole place down yesterday evening (4pm!) for xmas. Christmas is on friggin Sunday and these guys have shut up shop on Thursday (afternoon).

Council workers are probably the most work shy of all in the PS (not all of them, as Sleepy says there are exceptions there that are dedicated and hardworking, but they are indeed exceptions)

You are being extremely selective there. You write like an Independent journalist. I know lots of private companies who shut up shop at 4.00 yesterday.

RichardAnd

murphaph wrote: »

As I mentioned before, my mother works in a council building (but not for the council). They shut the whole place down yesterday evening (4pm!) for xmas. Christmas is on friggin Sunday and these guys have shut up shop on Thursday (afternoon).

Council workers are probably the most work shy of all in the PS (not all of them, as Sleepy says there are exceptions there that are dedicated and hardworking, but they are indeed exceptions)

I know of several private companies that do that. Most civil service offices are open today, I might add.

Sleepy

Godge wrote: »

All of the other posts listing "I know this public servant that turns up at 10.25 etc. etc." are only anecdotal experiences. I know some public servants who are lazy. I know some private sector workers who are lazy. Both cases have pulled the wool over someone's eyes and get away with it. It is not something unique to the public sector.

I also know public servants who work 50 and 60-hour weeks without any extra reward. You wouldn't get that from a private sector worker without promising a large bonus or paying big money.

Usually all it takes in this environment is the threat / promise of the business folding / a job next month tbh. I do 50/60 hours weeks most of the time because it's what's needed to keep the company (and my job) alive at the moment. 'd also know public sector workers who do 5/60 hour weeks with no over-time etc. Don't you think those staff deserve to be rewarded for that instead of their efforts ensuring their lazier colleagues maintain their inflated salaries? Proper accountability and room to make the dead weight redundant and we could afford to pay those public servants who do put in the extra graft at a fair price. Collective bargaining and threats of strike action should legitimately redundant / incompetent staff be let go hurts the competent and over-worked PS workers more than anyone.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Councils around the country are letting staff go and sending them to the dole queues.

I can see why they didn't take you on.
You would be Mr. Unpopular in that office or road crew or whatever you were planning.
The council letting staff go and now new hires are coming to work for free and looking to get full time work

If the union didn't step in they should have

Wouldn't you feel threatened watching your colleagues get let go and then eager staff coming in on no salary and wanting your job?

Councils, like the rest of the public sector have been forced to let people go based on their employment status (contract workers rather than permanent) and a policy of non-replacement. Consequently they have large gaps in the skill-sets of their employees. You'll have to trust me when I say there isn't a council employee in the country with my skill-set in regards to, arguably their most vital computer system. TBH, there's very few of us in the country with the skill-set, most have emigrated to England where there's a very healthy contracting market in my area.

If I was in the position of getting to work with (and learn from) an expert in my field I'd jump to take that opportunity tbh.

kceire wrote: »

I'm gona print this post out and use it as evidence when asking my boss for a 30 minute breaks in the morning and afternoon

I get a breakfast break of about 15 mins but not the afternoon. We have a kitchenette thing where we're expected to make a cup of tea for ourselves to avoid all that crap.

LOL, I didn't say she was entitled to those breaks, I said that's what she took. I'm sure she wasn't entitled to show up 25 minutes late for work either, nor to knock off 15 minutes early (I know that flexi-time has been suspended in that particular office). Didn't stop her doing it mind.

The kitchenette thing is standard as far as I know. It's certainly how things happen in my workplace. The only striking differences I've come across in Ireland in the course of my professional life would be the Starbucks (that used to be?) run in South Dublin County Council or the incredible canteen in the Courts Service.

murphaph wrote:

As I mentioned before, my mother works in a council building (but not for the council). They shut the whole place down yesterday evening (4pm!) for xmas. Christmas is on friggin Sunday and these guys have shut up shop on Thursday (afternoon).

Council workers are probably the most work shy of all in the PS (not all of them, as Sleepy says there are exceptions there that are dedicated and hardworking, but they are indeed exceptions)

largepants wrote: »

You are being extremely selective there. You write like an Independent journalist. I know lots of private companies who shut up shop at 4.00 yesterday.

While I'd agree with murphaph that many of the council workers are incredibly work-shy (the worst offenders being the job-sharers / term-timers in my experience), criticising them for finishing for Christmas yesterday is a bit of non-starter, I know loads of people working for private companies who didn't have to come into work today. I'm in work myself but we're only doing a half-day and my boss is bringing our team for lunch.

Gumbo

murphaph wrote: »

As I mentioned before, my mother works in a council building (but not for the council). They shut the whole place down yesterday evening (4pm!) for xmas. Christmas is on friggin Sunday and these guys have shut up shop on Thursday (afternoon).

Council workers are probably the most work shy of all in the PS (not all of them, as Sleepy says there are exceptions there that are dedicated and hardworking, but they are indeed exceptions)

What council is that?
all 4 local authorities in dublin are on full days today (23rd).

Sleepy wrote: »

LOL, I didn't say she was entitled to those breaks, I said that's what she took. I'm sure she wasn't entitled to show up 25 minutes late for work either, nor to knock off 15 minutes early (I know that flexi-time has been suspended in that particular office). Didn't stop her doing it mind.

The kitchenette thing is standard as far as I know. It's certainly how things happen in my workplace. The only striking differences I've come across in Ireland in the course of my professional life would be the Starbucks (that used to be?) run in South Dublin County Council or the incredible canteen in the Courts Service.

Agh i know, i was only pulling your leg, although i acknowledge your acknowledgement that there are decent workers in there.

Sleepy wrote: »

While I'd agree with murphaph that many of the council workers are incredibly work-shy (the worst offenders being the job-sharers / term-timers in my experience), criticising them for finishing for Christmas yesterday is a bit of non-starter, I know loads of people working for private companies who didn't have to come into work today. I'm in work myself but we're only doing a half-day and my boss is bringing our team for lunch.

Appreciate the honesty, while here in my PS job, im here since 8am and not off till 4pm. were on full days today and we dont eben get an xmas cup of tea free!
My grandfather died last week, and we get one day off compassate leave, if i was still in my private sector job, i would of been given 3 days minimum, infact i got a week off when my grandmother died in 2006

murphaph

kceire wrote: »

What council is that?

I'd rather not say. It would be easy enough to identify the mother and it's not my place to do that. Suffice to say she has also encountered the "pressure to take breaks" mentality that Sleepy had. It's like you're evil if you have a work ethic that causes you to skip the odd tea break and carry on working.

All I'll say is, not one of the 4 Dublin authorities but is a Leinster county council.

I am sure there are some private firms closing up for today but I presume these firms are making money and not in massive financial difficulty. It's their prerogative if they want to close really.

A public facing office in any council should not close on the 23rd of December. The 4 Dublin authorities seem to recognise this.

Gumbo

murphaph wrote: »

I'd rather not say. It would be easy enough to identify the mother and it's not my place to do that. Suffice to say she has also encountered the "pressure to take breaks" mentality that Sleepy had. It's like you're evil if you have a work ethic that causes you to skip the odd tea break and carry on working.

All I'll say is, not one of the 4 Dublin authorities but is a Leinster county council.

I am sure there are some private firms closing up for today but I presume these firms are making money and not in massive financial difficulty. It's their prerogative if they want to close really.

A public facing office in any council should not close on the 23rd of December. The 4 Dublin authorities seem to recognise this.

Thats fair enough, can understand.

working for free sounds like crap

Head The Wall

kceire wrote: »

What council is that?
all 4 local authorities in dublin are on full days today (23rd).

Come on, there is a large country outside of the pale you know

kceire wrote: »

Agh i know, i was only pulling your leg, although i acknowledge your acknowledgement that there are decent workers in there.

Even though there's plenty of posters on this forum that have their differences most people are well aware that there's plenty of good/great workers in the PS. You'll find it's the useless ones that most people have the issue with and the fact that PS union members end up supporting these people.