Welsh agree to Salary Cap.

errlloyd

Irish Times

Welsh clubs agree salary caps
Rugby: The four Welsh regions could lose more players to France after it was announced they will operate under a salary cap from the start of next season as part of a landmark agreement designed to deliver long-term sustainability in the professional game in the country.

The salary cap of £3.5 million (€4.2 million) will cover the players registered for European competition by the Ospreys, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets and Newport Gwent Dragons, but does not include development players or academy costs. It is hoped that the cap will lead to a greater emphasis on developing the next generation of Wales-qualified players.

"The regions have come together with a shared sense of responsibility to get their own houses in order and find solutions," explained the WRU’s regional chairman Stuart Gallacher. "This agreement is the start of that journey. They are eager to do all they can to achieve greater self-sufficiency and our governing body the WRU has been wholly supportive of and endorsed the initiative we have taken.

"This is a powerful signal of our determination to achieve our aims amidst some tough economic challenges in Wales now and in the future. All four regions are working very hard indeed to manage their businesses more effectively in a very difficult environment for everyone.

"As part of that, it is essential that every element of the circa £30m annual costs involved with operating four professional rugby businesses in European competition, is examined in detail and managed effectively.

"The introduction of this agreement and the European squad salary cap illustrates pragmatic and responsible action in tough times. Nobody will make light of the challenges ahead but initiatives like this new salary cap must give our rugby supporters renewed confidence in our ability to move with the times, be decisive and make a stand with cohesion and a shared vision and united spirit."

Lee Byrne, Mike Phillips and James Hook all left the Ospreys at the end of last season to join Clermont, Bayonne and Perpignan respectively while Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Luke Charteris have also been linked with moves to France’s Top 14.

Hmm... Anyone else think they're screwed?

Winters

Its an interesting and surprising development.

The Welsh regions are fairly autonomous from the WRU and seem to look towards the England/France model rather than the Irish/New Zealand one which would have suited them better given their population.

They decided not to go down the central contracts route in Wales and also dont have the tax rebate system we have here. For 'Regional Rugby Wales' you can just read 'Premiership Rugby' and 'Ligue Nationale de Rugby'.

We dont know how lucky we are here in Ireland with the systems we have and all under one single employer/body (IRFU).

CIARAN_BOYLE

I'm pretty sure thats lower than the English cap anyone know for certain. May the Welsh start treating the regions as a breeding ground for young talent who then move off to play in a real league for serious money.

If so bad news for the Pro 12

who the fug

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'm pretty sure thats lower than the English cap anyone know for certain. May the Welsh start treating the regions as a breeding ground for young talent who then move off to play in a real league for serious money.

If so bad news for the Pro 12

English cap is 4 millions, which is too low, and has become a bit of a joke

totallegend

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'm pretty sure thats lower than the English cap anyone know for certain. May the Welsh start treating the regions as a breeding ground for young talent who then move off to play in a real league for serious money.

If so bad news for the Pro 12

Think the English salary cap is around £4 million, maybe slightly higher but still in the same ballpark as the Welsh figure so I don't think that's the problem, it's more guys going to France that I'd be worried about.

But look, something has to give. The Welsh regions can't continue drawing crowds as small as they are and still pretend that they can pay competitive wages. Saracens got 45,000 for their game against Ospreys, a week later 8,000 or so turned up at the Liberty and that was probably one of their best crowds all year. Scarlets didn't get close to filling the ground against Munster, one of the prime draws in the optimal time slot of Saturday evening. Continuing on the way they're going is a fast lane to bankruptcy.

I'm sure Ulster will take Tommy Bowe off their hands if the Ospreys are over budget...

errlloyd

Hope Treviso get better quickly, otherwise the Pro-12 may aswell just be inter-provincial. This is incredible.

Can someone with insider knowledge please explain to me why the Welsh don't look at Ireland, realise our system is working better and use that system? I don't believe we had more money or larger attendance when we started central contracting, what is preventing them from doing it?

[Jackass]

This is seriously bad news for the league and welsh rugby.

We often asked the question, how can teams like Scarlets, Cardiff and particularly Ospreys survive with some top name players in world rugby, and half, if even only quarter full, shiny new stadiums each week, which need paying for also...

And now we have our answer...

They can't.

For a "national sport", attendance figures at Welsh regions league games are nothing short of absolutely appauling, in context of the supposed size of the sport in Wales, the size of the stadiums, and the talent on show. The Heineken Cup games are now not even scraping half full stadiums, and the only teams that seem to sell out Liberty Stadium for example, is Leicester, as I suppose it gives the Welsh regions a taste of what they really want, to be in the Aviva Premiership.

I'd nearly like to see Cardiff go and win the Heineken Cup this season just to inject some enthusiasim back in to the regional game over there.

If Welsh rugby collapses, and Scottish rugby already has, all but by name, then the league will be a bad place for teams like Leinster and Munster, and will turn into more of a "Scottish Premier League" in football equivalent, than an "English Premier League" that we all want it to grow into (i.e. the biggest league in the world).

I hope Welsh rugby can re-discover the passion and pride it once had, but sooner or later we're going to have to look at the current model and wonder / face, is it not really working?

I have never understood, and it baffles me more than anything, why the Welsh public don't embrace their teams like the Irish have, and I know we had pre-defined provinces, and 100+ years of history between teams, but even still, they seem to have been given everything. Good teams, nice stadiums, reasonable success over the years (Ospreys 3 league titles, a few Heineken Quarter-finals, Cardiff a Heineken Semi, Amlin Cup, Scarlets some Heineken knock-outs)... it's such a shame and sadly i dont see it ever changing..

4PP

errlloyd wrote: »

Hope Treviso get better quickly, otherwise the Pro-12 may aswell just be inter-provincial. This is incredible.

Can someone with insider knowledge please explain to me why the Welsh don't look at Ireland, realise our system is working better and use that system? I don't believe we had more money or larger attendance when we started central contracting, what is preventing them from doing it?

Our system is working better:rolleyes:.........what exactly is that system?
Protect our best players for the national squad.........keeping them sharp via the Euro Comps & blooding young guns in the Pro12?

What happens if England & France decide to "take their ball back"?

No system

errlloyd

4PP wrote: »

Our system is working better:rolleyes:.........what exactly is that system?
Protect our best players for the national squad.........keeping them sharp via the Euro Comps & blooding young guns in the Pro12?

What happens if England & France decide to "take their ball back"?

No system

Right so dunno what "take their ball back" means.

But our system is central contracts, tax breaks for players who stay domestic and unofficially only really selecting players who play in Ireland. Our system also accepts one of our four teams as a development team.

As for playing our best in Europe and playing our young players in the Pro-12. I don't really see whats wrong with that. Its possible other teams learn more in a tight game against a Leinster squad with a mix of young talent and old talent then they'd learn get completely destroyed week in week out by our first team, so I don't buy we devalue the competition much that way.

Shelflife

Salary cap is easy enough to get around.

scarlets sign mccaw on 100k per year and his wife gets a local job feeding ducks at 200k a year.

4PP

[Jackass] wrote: »

This is seriously bad news for the league and welsh rugby.

We often asked the question, how can teams like Scarlets, Cardiff and particularly Ospreys survive with some top name players in world rugby, and half, if even only quarter full, shiny new stadiums each week, which need paying for also...

And now we have our answer...

They can't.

For a "national sport", attendance figures at Welsh regions league games are nothing short of absolutely appauling, in context of the supposed size of the sport in Wales, the size of the stadiums, and the talent on show. The Heineken Cup games are now not even scraping half full stadiums, and the only teams that seem to sell out Liberty Stadium for example, is Leicester, as I suppose it gives the Welsh regions a taste of what they really want, to be in the Aviva Premiership.

I'd nearly like to see Cardiff go and win the Heineken Cup this season just to inject some enthusiasim back in to the regional game over there.

If Welsh rugby collapses, and Scottish rugby already has, all but by name, then the league will be a bad place for teams like Leinster and Munster, and will turn into more of a "Scottish Premier League" in football equivalent, than an "English Premier League" that we all want it to grow into (i.e. the biggest league in the world).

I hope Welsh rugby can re-discover the passion and pride it once had, but sooner or later we're going to have to look at the current model and wonder / face, is it not really working?

I have never understood, and it baffles me more than anything, why the Welsh public don't embrace their teams like the Irish have, and I know we had pre-defined provinces, and 100+ years of history between teams, but even still, they seem to have been given everything. Good teams, nice stadiums, reasonable success over the years (Ospreys 3 league titles, a few Heineken Quarter-finals, Cardiff a Heineken Semi, Amlin Cup, Scarlets some Heineken knock-outs)... it's such a shame and sadly i dont see it ever changing..

Lord above if there is one rugby nation in amongst the "home nations" it is the Welsh. I'm am probably an old fogey at 42 but growing up in county Dublin with 2 clubs within 5 miles I never even so much as saw an oval ball in school.

100 year history?? Between who?, Blackrock & Rockwell et al???, ie 1% of the population!! That is not Ireland my friend.

Ireland has cottened on to rugby in the last 15 years at best & its still a minority sport. Or should I say it is for the first 80 minutes, for the third half the bars will always be full
If there was a tltle for after match celebrations W/L/D we'd be universal champions

I would be the first person on this earth to prone a wider development of the game on our island. Imangine the O'Hailpin brothers in Lansdowne?
& not just those gentlemen. Many more have what it takes to claim a place.

Ireland may become a rugby nation on a par with others but as of now thats not the case. But those that pull on that shirt are punching way above their weight.

Bravo.

totallegend

[Jackass] wrote: »

I have never understood, and it baffles me more than anything, why the Welsh public don't embrace their teams like the Irish have, and I know we had pre-defined provinces, and 100+ years of history between teams, but even still, they seem to have been given everything. Good teams, nice stadiums, reasonable success over the years (Ospreys 3 league titles, a few Heineken Quarter-finals, Cardiff a Heineken Semi, Amlin Cup, Scarlets some Heineken knock-outs)... it's such a shame[\QUOTE]

Apologies for selectively quoting, but the likes of Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea have far more history and tradition than any of the Irish provinces. That makes it all the worse that they couldn't translate that into professional success.

[Jackass]

4PP wrote: »

Lord above if there is one rugby nation in amongst the "home nations" it is the Welsh. I'm am probably an old fogey at 42 but growing up in county Dublin with 2 clubs within 5 miles I never even so much as saw an oval ball in school.

100 year history?? Between who?, Blackrock & Rockwell et al???, ie 1% of the population!! That is not Ireland my friend.

Ireland has cottened on to rugby in the last 15 years at best & its still a minority sport. Or should I say it is for the first 80 minutes, for the third half the bars will always be full
If there was a tltle for after match celebrations W/L/D we'd be universal champions

I would be the first person on this earth to prone a wider development of the game on our island. Imangine the O'Hailpin brothers in Lansdowne?
& not just those gentlemen. Many more have what it takes to claim a place.

Ireland may become a rugby nation on a par with others but as of now that not the case. But those that pull on that shirt are punching way above their weight.

Bravo.

Leinster, Munster & Ulster have been playing against each other since 1875...

[Jackass]

totallegend wrote: »

[Jackass] wrote: »

I have never understood, and it baffles me more than anything, why the Welsh public don't embrace their teams like the Irish have, and I know we had pre-defined provinces, and 100+ years of history between teams, but even still, they seem to have been given everything. Good teams, nice stadiums, reasonable success over the years (Ospreys 3 league titles, a few Heineken Quarter-finals, Cardiff a Heineken Semi, Amlin Cup, Scarlets some Heineken knock-outs)... it's such a shame[\QUOTE]

Apologies for selectively quoting, but the likes of Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea have far more history and tradition than any of the Irish provinces. That makes it all the worse that they couldn't translate that into professional success.

Of course, and that was the point I was making, that these are "manufactured" regions, and why the Welsh don't embrace them in the professional game..

who the fug

[Jackass] wrote: »

Leinster, Munster & Ulster have been playing against each other since 1875...

And when moi and 4PP where pups one man and his dog had bigger viewing figures

who the fug

[Jackass] wrote: »

totallegend wrote: »

Of course, and that was the point I was making, that these are "manufactured" regions, and why the Welsh don't embrace them in the professional game..

Could you ever love a region made up between a Limerick and a Cork Club

wixfjord

Our provinces have a history in all sports and activities, which in itself lends to a better rivalry.
Kerry and Dublin in football, Tipp/Kilkenny in hurling, Cork people and the rest of the country etc!

ray jay

totallegend wrote: »

But look, something has to give. The Welsh regions can't continue drawing crowds as small as they are and still pretend that they can pay competitive wages. Saracens got 45,000 for their game against Ospreys, a week later 8,000 or so turned up at the Liberty and that was probably one of their best crowds all year. Scarlets didn't get close to filling the ground against Munster, one of the prime draws in the optimal time slot of Saturday evening. Continuing on the way they're going is a fast lane to bankruptcy.

It's not just a matter of low attendances, the Welsh sides charge less for tickets than Irish or big English teams. Until the fans start turning up, these salary caps are appropriate for the financial state of Welsh club rugby.

4PP

[Jackass] wrote: »

Leinster, Munster & Ulster have been playing against each other since 1875...

I don't doubt or question that for a moment.
But the fact that a playing pool of a couple of hundred guys got together once or twice a year does not embed it into the national mindset.

The welsh on the other hand always had a very strong & realtively widespread club culture as did the Scots in the borders. All of which was torn asunder with the advent of professionalism

B0X

who the fug wrote: »

And when moi and 4PP where pups one man and his dog had bigger viewing figures

I dunno about that...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056484973

funky penguin

What's the marketing of the Welsh clubs like?

4PP

errlloyd wrote: »

Right so dunno what "take their ball back" means.

But our system is central contracts, tax breaks for players who stay domestic and unofficially only really selecting players who play in Ireland. Our system also accepts one of our four teams as a development team.

As for playing our best in Europe and playing our young players in the Pro-12. I don't really see whats wrong with that. Its possible other teams learn more in a tight game against a Leinster squad with a mix of young talent and old talent then they'd learn get completely destroyed week in week out by our first team, so I don't buy we devalue the competition much that way.

By that phrase I meant what happens if England & France come to an inter country agreement without the Celtic and Italien nations?

Thay are the only two countries witha competive league system, have the biggest unions and if truth be told don't actually need the rest of us.
We however do need them.

The Rabo Pro Direct Inter Celtic/Italien league.
Doesn't have the same ring does it?

Btw this is not me on a bender, the issue has come up many a time over the last 10 years (in France ) & imho its only the fact that Lapasset is IRB president that it hasn't come to a head

errlloyd

Lads its not about who has the longest history, budget or penis.

Its about whats good for Welsh rugby.

How is a salary cap going to help? Usually it means that less well off teams have a chance in their league compared to more well off teams. But this cap is only binding on four teams. Similarly 3.5mn doesn't actually mean the dragons have any more money then they did before. And now if they do manage to attract a crowd, they'll still not be able to increase the cap because I imagine the poorest teams will always veto and increase.

[Jackass]

who the fug wrote: »

Could you ever love a region made up between a Limerick and a Cork Club

What exacltly do you you think Munster rugby is? ... and always has been...

4PP wrote: »

I don't doubt or question that for a moment.
But the fact that a playing pool of a couple of hundred guys got together once or twice a year does not embed it into the national mindset.

The welsh on the other hand always had a very strong & realtively widespread club culture as did the Scots in the borders. All of which was torn asunder with the advent of professionalism

Eh....yes, we had that club culture also, as long as the Welsh had, with the first Irish rugby club being formed in 1854...

Jesus, I give up on this forum.

You make one point about how the welsh haven't embraced regional rugby like we have (even though aknowledging that ours pre-existed and there's were manufactoured) and you have the insane clown possy coming on trying to show like they know a thing or two...

The rugby structure in ALL of the Brittish isles was reasonably the same, with the main differences coming from professional rugby, and the club game was much bigger here than provincial rugby until provincial rugby became our pro teams (and yes, Shannon fans sat beside Garryowen fans cheering for the same team etc. etc., and limerick men embraced the same as Cork men etc etc) and we switched to provinces and we all embraced it (aided bythe history i mentioned) and they didn't (perhpas hinderd by the lack of history....as I mentioned) and England continued with their club structure and didn't introduce any regions...

Jesus wept....

who the fug

B0X wrote: »

I dunno about that...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056484973

:eek:

Cheeky bugger, we are not that old

4PP

who the fug wrote: »

And when moi and 4PP where pups one man and his dog had bigger viewing figures

Sundays on BBC2........... "Come boy!"

Ski Sunday was on around 5ish if memory serves :P

errlloyd

4PP wrote: »

By that phrase I meant what happens if England & France come to an inter country agreement without the Celtic and Italien nations?

Thay are the only two countries witha competive league system, have the biggest unions and if truth be told don't actually need the rest of us.
We however do need them.

The Rabo Pro Direct Inter Celtic/Italien league.
Doesn't have the same ring does it?

Btw this is not me on a bender, the issue has come up many a time over the last 10 years (in France ) & imho its only the fact that Lapasset is IRB president that it hasn't come to a head

Oh right, you mean they'd create a proper European league, with presumably 3 or 4 divisions at first, and only invite English and French teams.

There are a couple of reasons I can't see that happening. One for instance is English teams having salary caps and French teams not having them. Another is the fact there is a **** load of history in French club rugby. Another is the fact we have the ERC and the 6 Nations so their is already a bond. Once again why would they create tension within the IRB that would cause? What does it cost them to include a 5th division and just add in the Rabo.

You seem to know much more about his argument then I do. But it seems fairly easy to just knock it down as nonsense. Is there truly a lot of weight behind it?

who the fug

4PP wrote: »

Sundays on BBC2........... "Come boy!"

Ski Sunday was on around 5ish if memory serves :P

BBC2

You posh git, one had only one channel (one man and his dog live at 1800 hours every effing Sunday:eek:)

4PP

[Jackass] wrote: »

What exacltly do you you think Munster rugby is? ... and always has been...



Eh....yes, we had that club culture also, as long as the Welsh had, with the first Irish rugby club being formed in 1854...

Jesus, I give up on this forum.

You make one point about how the welsh haven't embraced regional rugby like we have (even though aknowledging that ours pre-existed and there's were manufactoured) and you have the insane clown possy coming on trying to show like they know a thing or two...

The rugby structure in ALL of the Brittish isles was reasonably the same, with the main differences coming from professional rugby, and the club game was much bigger here than provincial rugby until provincial rugby became our pro teams (and yes, Shannon fans sat beside Garryowen fans cheering for the same team etc. etc., and limerick men embraced the same as Cork men etc etc) and we switched to provinces and we all embraced it (aided bythe history i mentioned) and they didn't (perhpas hinderd by the lack of history....as I mentioned) and England continued with their club structure and didn't introduce any regions...

Jesus wept....

Weep all you want dear boy but trying to convince anybody that rugby was anything but a marginal activity up until the last fifteen years ago in this country implies you are talking through your pseudo.
Truth be told it is still very much a marginal activity.
I managed to get tickets for the 1st game in Croke Park 2007 despite living in France & paid but face value. Try doing that in September any year.
I have no doubt if you look hard enough you'll find a 'French petanque" club some where in Ireland but that does not mean it is a national sport.
Blind us with facts figures & dates all you like. you're the chap needing specsavers:P

errlloyd

4PP wrote: »

Weep all you want dear boy but trying to convince anybody that rugby was anything but a marginal activity up until the last fifteen years ago in this country implies you are taiking through your pseudo.
Truth be told it is still very much a marginal activity.
I managed to get tickets for the 1st game in Croke Park 2007 despite living in France & paid but face value. Try doing that in September any year.
I have no doubt if you look hard enough you'll find a 'French petanque" club some where in Ireland but that does not mean it is a national sport.
Blind us with facts figures & dates all you like. you're the chap needing specsavers:P

If we take inter-provinvcial rivalry out of the rugby context. And just discuss the way the provinces have always existed, how Connacht used to try steal Ulster's cattle but got stopped by a young lad called Setanta from the Leinster academy who (we assume) went on to start a sports channel.

Is that why people find it easier to support provinces in Ireland then regions in wales?

And if its not our history of provincial divide that makes rugby here more popular then wales. What do you think the Welsh have done wrong. What should they do to increase attendance?

4PP

errlloyd wrote: »

Oh right, you mean they'd create a proper European league, with presumably 3 or 4 divisions at first, and only invite English and French teams.

There are a couple of reasons I can't see that happening. One for instance is English teams having salary caps and French teams not having them. Another is the fact there is a **** load of history in French club rugby. Another is the fact we have the ERC and the 6 Nations so their is already a bond. Once again why would they create tension within the IRB that would cause? What does it cost them to include a 5th division and just add in the Rabo.

You seem to know much more about his argument then I do. But it seems fairly easy to just knock it down as nonsense. Is there truly a lot of weight behind it?

"Truely a lot of weight"

How can I put it? In one of the recent H-Cup games Wayne Barnes called the French captain aside & insisted that his players stop throwing their arms in the air and gesticulating at every one of his decisions.
He may as well have asked them to stop breathing.

So, really? I don't think it will happen. But is a weapon of menace. If you think about what have they (the clubs) got to lose?
Not an awfull lot really. Its the sponsers & the Tv people who will keep them in check. In the immediate future not much will change but the discontent is growing in the hexagone. Change will come & on that day the Celtic nations will have little option but to grin & bear it 'till they find a new way of undoing the frogs.

4PP

who the fug wrote: »

BBC2

You posh git, one had only one channel (one man and his dog live at 1800 hours every effing Sunday:eek:)

east coast lad, east coast

4PP

errlloyd wrote: »

Oh right, you mean they'd create a proper European league, with presumably 3 or 4 divisions at first, and only invite English and French teams.

There are a couple of reasons I can't see that happening. One for instance is English teams having salary caps and French teams not having them. Another is the fact there is a **** load of history in French club rugby. Another is the fact we have the ERC and the 6 Nations so their is already a bond. Once again why would they create tension within the IRB that would cause? What does it cost them to include a 5th division and just add in the Rabo.

You seem to know much more about his argument then I do. But it seems fairly easy to just knock it down as nonsense. Is there truly a lot of weight behind it?

Oh I doubt they'd go that far. A few games mid season amongst the Top4 of each league for example leading to semi's and a nice Joan D'Arc trophy .

just 3/4 extra dates so as not to impose an the home leagues & 6N.

who the fug

4PP wrote: »

Oh I doubt they'd go that far. A few games mid season amongst the Top4 of each league for example leading to semi's and a nice Joan D'Arc trophy .

just 3/4 extra dates so as not to impose an the home leagues & 6N.

Do you reckon, we have the Anglo Welsh cup, and the fans hate it, big cash cow to the clubs but not much loved

Winters

Im beginning to wonder why they even announced this. Essentially every company has a salary cap, its just called a budget.. What the 4 regions have done now is just agreed not to exceed £3.5m pa for salaries. The WRU currently provide £6m pa in total to the regions and pay for their academies. Both Ospreys (bankrolled by Mike Cuddy) and Cardiff Blues didn't develop Liberty Stadium and Cardiff City Stadium respectively so with regards to capital spending only Scarlets and Dragons have been developing their own grounds.

I look at it this way, the more foreign players that go to France the less players France will have coming through for the national team. However the FFR have been trying to correct this with their eligibility rules only allowing a certain % of the squad to be foreigners and this is set to decrease over the next few seasons. Not every player can go to France..

Interesting also that the IRFU don't release the individual provincial costs here but rather all combined so its difficult to compare running costs.

4PP

4PP wrote: »

Weep all you want dear boy but trying to convince anybody that rugby was anything but a marginal activity up until the last fifteen years ago in this country implies you are talking through your pseudo.
Truth be told it is still very much a marginal activity.
I managed to get tickets for the 1st game in Croke Park 2007 despite living in France & paid but face value. Try doing that in September any year.
I have no doubt if you look hard enough you'll find a 'French petanque" club some where in Ireland but that does not mean it is a national sport.
Blind us with facts figures & dates all you like. you're the chap needing specsavers:P

I take that back. My apologies, I didn't need to be so abusive.
After all its just a forum & we don't agree, so beit.

4PP

who the fug wrote: »

Do you reckon, we have the Anglo Welsh cup, and the fans hate it, big cash cow to the clubs but not much loved

Ahh but you have to factor in the eternal love the French have for the English & vice versa

That alone will add enough spice

4PP

Winters wrote: »

Im beginning to wonder why they even announced this. Essentially every company has a salary cap, its just called a budget.. What the 4 regions have done now is just agreed not to exceed £3.5m pa for salaries. The WRU currently provide £6m pa in total to the regions and pay for their academies. Both Ospreys (bankrolled by Mike Cuddy) and Cardiff Blues didn't develop Liberty Stadium and Cardiff City Stadium respectively so with regards to capital spending only Scarlets and Dragons have been developing their own grounds.

I look at it this way, the more foreign players that go to France the less players France will have coming through for the national team. However the FFR have been trying to correct this with their eligibility rules only allowing a certain % of the squad to be foreigners and this is set to decrease over the next few seasons. Not every player can go to France..

Interesting also that the IRFU don't release the individual provincial costs here but rather all combined so its difficult to compare running costs.

Excellent point. They are called JIFF (jeune issue de formation française) or guys from french youth structures/acadamies.
The percentage required on team sheets will be steadily increasing in the years to come. The clubs got a stay because of the WC but next season it starts in earnest.
Ironically people like Jerome Thion (BO) entre autres don't qualify as they started rugby late in life. Burban (Paris) I think is another who doesn't fall into the quota.

who the fug

4PP wrote: »

Ahh but you have to factor in the eternal love the French have for the English & vice versa

That alone will add enough spice

Give me stuffing Quins at the stoop any day

4PP

who the fug wrote: »

Give me stuffing Quins at the stoop any day

Aye, but I somehow doubt you are French-Saxon or Anglo-Norman

Podge_irl

People commenting on how few people went to or cared about the provinces decades ago are spectacularly missing Jackass's point. Their popularity is new but the fact they were based on ancient entities and are divided along lines familiar from other sports meant there was a parochialism and fervour immediately available for them to tap into

4PP

Podge_irl wrote: »

People commenting on how few people went to or cared about the provinces decades ago are spectacularly missing Jackass's point. Their popularity is new but the fact they were based on ancient entities and are divided along lines familiar from other sports meant there was a parochialism and fervour immediately available for them to tap into

Just what fervour would that be?


I do not for a minute discredit the claims that the provinces and even the clubs have existed for nigh on a century if not more but to take that to a claim of parochialism & fervour is a step too far.

Parochialism suggest a sense of community. It may exist now, in a strange way, even in the noughties or whereever. But its the first time we've heard of it vis a vis todays teams.

All of a sudden (roughly 2 decades or less) we have rugby teams playing in Europe & therefore fellas who would change footpaths rather then shaking hands with a Cavan/Meath, Cork/Kerry, Galway/Roscommon (& I could go on & on & on & on a la Mrs Doyle) are all friends??.

Look, its good for TV & the media & as an expat I can garauntee you its good for Irelands global image to have sucessfull teams.

But to go from their to claim that its a long held tradition amongst the gael is absolute BS.

Rugby is a minority sport in France, as it is in Ireland.

Difference being that when you're a minority sport in a country of 60 million or more you can get by. 4 million doesn't cut it.

I love the game but despite all my bias I can accept that rugby is just a "by the way" sport for sunny someday/sunday supporters who won't be there when thing go wrong & the rain and snow start to fall.

Rugby is a sport, in no way Irish, that we managed to get good at. It has practically no cultural links with the general population no matter how many dates you shake around.

That does not stop anyone being fiercely proud of Irish rugby. A rugby that didn't rely on 100 year old foreign traditions to forge a way for itself.

The english imposed a language, we made it our own. Our attitude to rugby is no different.

vinny chase

4PP wrote: »

Just what fervour would that be?


I do not for a minute discredit the claims that the provinces and even the clubs have existed for nigh on a century if not more but to take that to a claim of parochialism & fervour is a step too far.

Parochialism suggest a sense of community. It may exist now, in a strange way, even in the noughties or whereever. But its the first time we've heard of it vis a vis todays teams.

All of a sudden (roughly 2 decades or less) we have rugby teams playing in Europe & therefore fellas who would change footpaths rather then shaking hands with a Cavan/Meath, Cork/Kerry, Galway/Roscommon (& I could go on & on & on & on a la Mrs Doyle) are all friends??.

Look, its good for TV & the media & as an expat I can garauntee you its good for Irelands global image to have sucessfull teams.

But to go from their to claim that its a long held tradition amongst the gael is absolute BS.

Rugby is a minority sport in France, as it is in Ireland.

Difference being that when you're a minority sport in a country of 60 million or more you can get by. 4 million doesn't cut it.

I love the game but despite all my bias I can accept that rugby is just a "by the way" sport for sunny someday/sunday supporters who won't be there when thing go wrong & the rain and snow start to fall.

Rugby is a sport, in no way Irish, that we managed to get good at. It has practically no cultural links with the general population no matter how many dates you shake around.

That does not stop anyone being fiercely proud of Irish rugby. A rugby that didn't rely on 100 year old foreign traditions to forge a way for itself.

The english imposed a language, we made it our own. Our attitude to rugby is no different.

Rugby is a minority sport in France, is it?

wixfjord

4PP wrote: »

Just what fervour would that be?


I do not for a minute discredit the claims that the provinces and even the clubs have existed for nigh on a century if not more but to take that to a claim of parochialism & fervour is a step too far.

Parochialism suggest a sense of community. It may exist now, in a strange way, even in the noughties or whereever. But its the first time we've heard of it vis a vis todays teams.

All of a sudden (roughly 2 decades or less) we have rugby teams playing in Europe & therefore fellas who would change footpaths rather then shaking hands with a Cavan/Meath, Cork/Kerry, Galway/Roscommon (& I could go on & on & on & on a la Mrs Doyle) are all friends??.

Look, its good for TV & the media & as an expat I can garauntee you its good for Irelands global image to have sucessfull teams.

But to go from their to claim that its a long held tradition amongst the gael is absolute BS.

Rugby is a minority sport in France, as it is in Ireland.

Difference being that when you're a minority sport in a country of 60 million or more you can get by. 4 million doesn't cut it.

I love the game but despite all my bias I can accept that rugby is just a "by the way" sport for sunny someday/sunday supporters who won't be there when thing go wrong & the rain and snow start to fall.

Rugby is a sport, in no way Irish, that we managed to get good at. It has practically no cultural links with the general population no matter how many dates you shake around.

That does not stop anyone being fiercely proud of Irish rugby. A rugby that didn't rely on 100 year old foreign traditions to forge a way for itself.

The english imposed a language, we made it our own. Our attitude to rugby is no different.

For **** sake, nobody is arguing that we have a great rugby history, but Connacht, Ulster, Leinster and Munster all have distinct and separate histories unto themselves, sporting and otherwise, and the Welsh "franchises" don't have that, which has led to a lack of buy in.

Saying a "Cork and a Limerick club" joining up is not in any way representative of what Munster is, but that's exactly what the Welsh nations are.

You're statement that there's never been parochialism as a province is total BS.
Besides the fact that there's been provincial contests in rugby for decades, the country's biggest sport, GAA is actually based on provincial lines.

JustinDee

4PP wrote: »

Sundays on BBC2........... "Come boy!"

Ski Sunday was on around 5ish if memory serves :P

Yes, followed by Antiques Roadshow with Arthur Negus, Last of the Summer Wine then Howard's Way

its_phil

4PP wrote: »

Just what fervour would that be?


I do not for a minute discredit the claims that the provinces and even the clubs have existed for nigh on a century if not more but to take that to a claim of parochialism & fervour is a step too far.

Parochialism suggest a sense of community. It may exist now, in a strange way, even in the noughties or whereever. But its the first time we've heard of it vis a vis todays teams.

All of a sudden (roughly 2 decades or less) we have rugby teams playing in Europe & therefore fellas who would change footpaths rather then shaking hands with a Cavan/Meath, Cork/Kerry, Galway/Roscommon (& I could go on & on & on & on a la Mrs Doyle) are all friends??.

Look, its good for TV & the media & as an expat I can garauntee you its good for Irelands global image to have sucessfull teams.

But to go from their to claim that its a long held tradition amongst the gael is absolute BS.

Rugby is a minority sport in France, as it is in Ireland.

Difference being that when you're a minority sport in a country of 60 million or more you can get by. 4 million doesn't cut it.

I love the game but despite all my bias I can accept that rugby is just a "by the way" sport for sunny someday/sunday supporters who won't be there when thing go wrong & the rain and snow start to fall.

Rugby is a sport, in no way Irish, that we managed to get good at. It has practically no cultural links with the general population no matter how many dates you shake around.

That does not stop anyone being fiercely proud of Irish rugby. A rugby that didn't rely on 100 year old foreign traditions to forge a way for itself.

The english imposed a language, we made it our own. Our attitude to rugby is no different.

So what if there is no huge tradition! 4 HC wins in 6 years is creating tradition! I really dont get why you need to harp on about the past and there being no tradition. There is a tradition now and the 4 provinces will probably grow bigger over the next 20 years.

Parochialism does exist between the provinces when it comes to rugby in this country now. I live in Dublin and I'm a Connacht supporter. But I can talk to my mates from Mayo and Roscommon about Connacht. I dont go to matches as a Connacht supporter from Galway, I go as a Connacht supporter from Connacht with people from all over the

Its the same with my mates from Offaly they can talk to our mates from Dublin on their teams form. In fact they went over as a group to last years HC final, and it included 2 Offaly, 2 Westmeath, and 2 Dublin guys in their party. They'd known each other for only 9 months, they weren't all friends since they were born. The all went they all cheered, they all celebrated, they all got slashed together as lads from Leinster not 6 lads from different parts of the country. Thats parochialism. It may not be on the narrower scale of thing as the local parish or an understanding of that level but its on a huge scale and an understanding and care exists between supporters. We all go to matches as supporters of our respective teams because we support the province not the county.

In the same way you seem to have a better understanding of French rugby because you live there, I dont think you understand fully or can see the phenom that is developing in this country towards rugby because you are an ex-pat. I think your opinions on the type of support for the provinces are from a time when you left this country.

4PP

vinny chase wrote: »

Rugby is a minority sport in France, is it?

yes

4PP

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes, followed by Antiques Roadshow with Arthur Negus, Last of the Summer Wine then Howard's Way

couldn't stomach HW myself

vinny chase

4PP wrote: »

yes

You don't know what you're talking about.

4PP

vinny chase wrote: »

You don't know what you're talking about.

really? you'd be surprised methinks.

We can chat after the Christmas if you don't mind. Im up to my oxters in the meantime

Later

profitius

They've come out with the salary cap now because they want to put pressure on the WRU for more funds.