FORD 4000 STARTING PROBLEM

kincaid

Hi,
got a ford 4000 that won’t start no matter what I do.
Someone mentioned to me to push the fan belt in with one hand and then try to turn the fan with the other and see if the bottom pulley will turn round and if not water has got in..

I’ve done this and its seems to be seized as can not turn it
Its seems water seems to have got in thru the exhaust pipe as been lying up outside and has not been started for quite a long time now.

Anyone able to tell me what way to sort this out and get the tractor started

thanks

Slidey

The engine should still be able to rotate backwards. If the water was lying in it long enough it may have rusted the rings to the liners.

Take out the injectors and rotate the engine, this will clear any water that will be in the cylinders

kincaid

Thanks mate
i took out the injectors and then turned her over but will not start,

i looked at a friends 4000 and you can turn the bottom pulley but mine has seized so must have rusted the rings to the liners.

Slidey

Will it not turn over even with the injectors out?

Remove the starter and see if you can move it with a screwdriver on the ring gear

jimmyw

see if you can get a socket/spanner on a bolt on the lower pulley, (crankshaft) to see if you can turn it.Make sure you are turning it the right way and it is in neutral gear.

P.S I assume there is no movement at all when you try to turn it? Are you sure the problem is not with the starter motor?

We once had a dexta that locked up due to liquid diesel having got into the engine and locked the engine.There was a tap we never knew about beforehand.The driver got a nice mouthful when it was finally cleared out of there.

corkcomp

put it into top gear and get a few lads to try rocking it back and forwards and see if you can see the engine turning, I wouldnt rule out a starter problem tbh.

kincaid

thanks but starter is good...was told that due to the heavy rain recently its gets in the exhaust and goes up by the pistons etc and if this happens you won't be able to move the bottom pulley... (you should be able to move this by hand)
was told to remove the injectors and pour some diesel in and would have to loosen it up...

jimmyw

yes the exhaust definitely needs a flap over it, or turned up at the end.The diesel should do it.Good luck.

kincaid

I put the diesel in several days ago and just getting back to this now ( Bottom pulley still stuck tight)
just wondering if i should now do what slidey suggested now and remove the starter and try to turn the ring gear with a lever first or should i just try and start it. I Do not want to cause damage to the tractor .

Slidey

You are safer with the screwdriver.

At least that way you won't burn out the starter

corkcomp

why not just tow it with another tractor / jeep and throw her into top gear.. might be less hassle than trying to turn the ring gear? and if your going to try turning ring gear on a stuck engine use a prying bar... the screw driver wouldnt do it ..

Slidey

Because if your force it you may break a ring or worse.

You will have no idea of the type of force you are having to put on the engine if you are towing it

corkcomp

Slidey wrote: »

Because if your force it you may break a ring or worse.

You will have no idea of the type of force you are having to put on the engine if you are towing it

an engine that isn't stuck isn't the easiest to turn with a screw driver (for injector pump timing etc) so cant see how you could free a stuck engine that way ... if the back wheels lock when you take your leg off the clutch then give up and go back to the drawing board.

jimmyw

corkcomp wrote: »

why not just tow it with another tractor / jeep and throw her into top gear.. might be less hassle than trying to turn the ring gear? and if your going to try turning ring gear on a stuck engine use a prying bar... the screw driver wouldnt do it ..

corkcomp wrote: »

an engine that isn't stuck isn't the easiest to turn with a screw driver (for injector pump timing etc) so cant see how you could free a stuck engine that way ... if the back wheels lock when you take your leg off the clutch then give up and go back to the drawing board.

I am inclined to agree with you there, its very fiddlely getting a screwdriver or pry bar onto the ring gear.You dont have the torque. I suppose thats the point Slidey is making, less force, less damage but you will never get her started that way.It should be possible to turn the engine with the fan belt, but not if the engine is stiff or seized.By all means try the prying to see if the engine will turn first.Maybe remove the injectors before trying, to release the compression.As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we had a dexta lock up with diesel and we got her going by leaving her off down the hill and starting her on the clutch, and no damage was done.

kincaid

ok thanks, i got the starter off and have managed to move the ringgear(clockwise).
But how far should i move it, half turn, full turn or does It matter???

Slidey

Once it is moving the engine isn't seized.

If you have the injectors out make sure you have a good starter and spin it over, that will expel any water lying in the cylinders.

I would make sure there is no water in the exhaust manifold first though.

kincaid

Slidey wrote: »

Once it is moving the engine isn't seized.

If you have the injectors out make sure you have a good starter and spin it over, that will expel any water lying in the cylinders.

I would make sure there is no water in the exhaust manifold first though.

I have the injectors out and did top with with diesel and left sitting in it for 4-5 days and have today been turning her over on and off for the past 20 minutes and there is still diesel/water spraying out so how long should i do this for as not good for the starter

you mention to check the exhaust manifold for water lying but won't that just be blew out when i turn the tractor over

Thanks

Slidey

There must be water lying in the manifold and it is getting in. Have you the stop pulled on the pump to stop it adding diesel when it is turning over?

kincaid

Yes thanks ( Had to change engine oil too as when i opened the sump nut water come out too)and have cleaned the 3 injectors and put them back in and connected up the pipes etc but not starting with no diesel going to the injectors it seems,
I removed the pipe at front side of pump and there is definitely diesel going to the injector pump.
I loosened the little screw nut on the injector pump and turned the tractor over but diesel should be spurting out but its not.
Plenty of diesel in tractor and injector pump was working perfect, much have done something or missed something here

Figerty

When getting an Air-lock out of the 4000 I have to slacken off the nut at the injector untill diesel comes out. Repeat the process for all three cylinders. Any chance the injector pump isn't knackered?

Last winter I had to empty out the diesal tank and clean out all the lines as well due to the frost, but I also found a lot of dirt in there.

Go easy on the starter, you can burn it out if you go to often on the starter. You might have to swing the battery out of the way.

kincaid

have battery holder out completely as i had the 3 injectors out and have put them back in but no diesel going to any of them at all.
the tank is clean too.

Figerty

Stupid question I suppose.. but is the diesel tank tap open???

I'll have a look at mine to see if there is anything that springs to mind.

kincaid

yes, took pipe off that goes to injector pump and it flowing to this anyway

Slidey

if there is diesel coming to the pump and not out of it there is 2 logical problems

1) the pump is air locked
2) the stop is stuck in the pump

corkcomp

would you not think of getting a mechanic to have a look at it? he could have it all sorted in half an hour?

kincaid

hard to get a mechanic out to look at anything around this area but was hoping to solve it myself but looks like i will have too now as cant figure it out,

thanks

kitbuilder123

Right just to confirm, You have diesel going into the pump, the stopper is pushed in and the engine is swinging over quickly ie with a good battery. If thats the case then take the bleed screw on the pump out completely and swing it over. Theres a chance your bleed screw is blocked. If still no diesel then your pump is in trouble but DONT take it off. Get a mechanic to come out and look at it as it may be possible to clean it out in place. If it needs to come out, then it needs to be timed. Hope this helps

jetfiremuck

I f you can get a 12v diesel pump and connect to a fresh drum of diesel. The pump will push diesel and air out thru bleed screw. Then crack all injector lines turn engine over and spray wd40 into intake. It should kick over and maybe run on the wd40. Diesel should spurt out of the lines. Tighten lines and see how you go. I started an old Deutz that had sat for years outdoors. Dont use ether. The wd40 has some lube qualities.

jimmyw

Make sure that the stop lever at the injector pump is truthfully on, ie the lever is attached to what it is supposed to be turning and not slipping on it.

corkcomp

jetfiremuck wrote: »

I f you can get a 12v diesel pump and connect to a fresh drum of diesel. The pump will push diesel and air out thru bleed screw. Then crack all injector lines turn engine over and spray wd40 into intake. It should kick over and maybe run on the wd40. Diesel should spurt out of the lines. Tighten lines and see how you go. I started an old Deutz that had sat for years outdoors. Dont use ether. The wd40 has some lube qualities.

I wouldnt use starting fluid of any description until you get white smoke from the exhaust while cranking TBH... starting fluid is designed to help with compression / lack of heat issues not fuel supply problems.

quietsailor

jimmyw wrote: »

Make sure that the stop lever at the injector pump is truthfully on, ie the lever is attached to what it is supposed to be turning and not slipping on it.

Double check this -- I worked on lot of tractors of that vintage and the next generation up (they had a similar injector pump)

Get someone to move the stop lever in and out and you watch the pump, the stop lever on the pump should move backwards and forwards. From memory it should be forward to start but double check that yourself.

try disconnecting the fuel line coming in from the lift pump/tank and putting a drum of clean diesel on the bonnet well above the injector pump with a hose leading from the drum to the fuel line you just removed. Now you know for certain you have fuel at the injector pump by gravity.--- You could also disconnect the line between the filters and the injector pump and attach the drum there but ONLY if you 110% sure the drum, hose and diesel are spotlessly clean - otherwise you inject dirt into the injector pump and injectors.

1. Open the bleed screw and turn her with the starter until the bubbles stop and the diesel squirts out under pressure.
2. Close the bleed screw and open the fittings at the injector. Again turn the engine until the bubble stop and you have diesel squirting.
3. If it doesn't start now I'd advise getting a mechanic.

There are 3 elements needed for combustion and this is what would be preventing her starting now
Fuel - you've just bled up as far as the injectors. Only damaged injectors can stop the fuel getting in to the combustion space - thats a professional inspect and repair job
Air - Check the air filter, if thats ok then the only thing that is stopping the air from reaching the combustion space is the inlet valves- If the engine is turning and they aren't opening thats a broken cam gear/belt/chain or camshaft :eek: again a professional repair job
Ignition source - Most likely your problem as you've already said the rings were seized. the rings may have broken off when the engine was turned and there is no seal, they may have gouged the liner and there is no seal. Again a professional needs to look at this.


When I say a professional needs to look at this I mean someone who is very comfortable ripping tractor engines apart - no offense meant but you don't come across as that person so i would advise against you attempting to fix major repairs

quietsailor

kincaid wrote: »

Yes thanks ( Had to change engine oil too as when i opened the sump nut water come out too)and have cleaned the 3 injectors and put them back in and connected up the pipes etc but not starting with no diesel going to the injectors it seems,
I removed the pipe at front side of pump and there is definitely diesel going to the injector pump.
I loosened the little screw nut on the injector pump and turned the tractor over but diesel should be spurting out but its not.
Plenty of diesel in tractor and injector pump was working perfect, much have done something or missed something here

Just re-read this post :eek: (I'd use a sick face if there was one available here)
If you've diesel getting to the pump (you do mean the pump and not the filters??? that's an important bit of information) but not out of it then;
she could be airlocked (start praying about this point)
Make a google search of your pump type - maybe there is an internal filter and its blocked and that'll get you going. (pray really hard its this)
or (and here is the sickening bit) there is internal damage to the pump or the gears driving the pump.