Guards and their rights

UnknownSpecies

Tonight my friend was stopped by a guard for no reason. He was simply walking down the road to home and they pulled the squad car up to him and proceeded to interrogate him.

First of all, the guard slipped his hand straight into his pocket, without warning or permission, and tried to pull his wallet out, is this allowed? When my friend protested, the guard replied "I'll do whatever the fuck I have the right to do". Now I'm not saying the guard is NOT allowed do this, to be honest I have no idea! In the end, my friend was let go as he was not up to no good and didn't have anything dodgy on him, no explanation from the guards either.

My initial thought, perhaps due to the stuff you'd hear on American TV shows about people and their rights, would be that this sort of random interrogation and searching a person's pocket would be against the law.

So I'm just wondering was the guard within his rights to do what he did? And also, do you think we have false assumptions about what our rights really are?

starbelgrade

Is wallet in this story a euphamism for cock? And if so, was the cop dressed more like a member of the Village People than a Garda?

token56

Probably just a guard on a power trip. You get jerks in every line of work.

LighterGuy

dorgasm wrote: »

So I'm just wondering was the guard within his rights to do what he did? And also, do you think we have false assumptions about what our rights really are?

Dorgasm,
theres alot of assholes on this board who for some reason take offence to anything bad been said about the gardai :rolleyes:
That they refuse to admit to that gardai at times can just be jerks. Stopping you without cause... you'll get the "ah sure they are only doing their job! :mad:" posts in this thread.

Knob ends in my opinion. The only experience they have had with Gardai is by watching them on the RTE 1 news.

UnknownSpecies

starbelgrade wrote: »

Is wallet in this story a euphamism for cock? And if so, was the cop dressed more like a member of the Village People than a Garda?

If he was, then my friend has been the victim of a very clever sexual assault.

Mr. Incognito

They have the power of detention and search.

They are also expected to use that discretion with some common sense.

I would have noted the guards number on his lapels and reported him. On it's own it's no small thing but I'm sure the record will clock up if he keeps behaving like a dick.

Overheal

And there are people on this forum who think there aren't bad cops everywhere. :rolleyes:

zenno

If this continues again then it is harassment Call 1890600800 ombudsman complaints and they will send out an inspector to follow this through. know your rights.

Guill

I would assume he would have to have open dialogue with your friend and inform your friend that he was going to do a body search?

Senna

The guard has to state under which "act" they are searching you under, they have to have reasonable grounds (but that's could really be anything), i think you can refuse, but you'll be arrested instantly.
If the story is exactly as your friend states (usually it isn't), then the garda was a toolbag.

LighterGuy

Overheal wrote: »

And there are people on this forum who think there aren't bad cops everywhere. :rolleyes:

Sooner than I expected :pac:

Sindri

I thought Gardaí in uniform weren't allowed to search you. Maybe I'm wrong.

Interestingly enough I know a story, completely true, where two Guards arrested a man. They didn't ask any questions just arrested him on the spot. He was brought down to the jail cells and spent the night there.

Turns out the Guards thought he was a well known local drug dealer and they'd mistaken him for the drug dealer.
They lost their jobs.

Anyway tell your friend to report it to the Garda Ombudsman if he felt his rights were impinged.

Senna

Sindri wrote: »

I thought Gardaí in uniform weren't allowed to search you. Maybe I'm wrong.

Interestingly enough I know a story, completely true, where two Guards arrested a man. They didn't ask any questions just arrested him on the spot. He was brought down to the jail cells and spent the night there.

Turns out the Guards thought he was a well known local drug dealer and they'd mistaken him for the drug dealer.
They lost their jobs.

Anyway tell your friend to report it to the Garda Ombudsman if he felt his rights were impinged.

I doubt that.

Overheal

LighterGuy wrote: »

Sooner than I expected :pac:

I was in the neighborhood.

UnknownSpecies

Senna wrote: »

The guard has to state under which "act" they are searching you under, they have to have reasonable grounds (but that's could really be anything), i think you can refuse, but you'll be arrested instantly.
If the story is exactly as your friend states (usually it isn't), then the garda was a toolbag.

Well I forgot to mention, my friend wasn't alone. Another one of my friends was there too but wasn't being questioned as intensely. Neither of my friends were drinking so I'm inclined to believe them, but I understand your point. When the guard stuck his hand in my pocket, my friend did say something along the lines of "Get your hand out, you can't do that", that's when the guard got thick with him.

minidazzler

AFAIK, they have to give a reason for the search or ask you. Regardless, I would refuse, I like to make **** awkward for people who think they can go through my pockets,

zenno

Read common Law powers.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/questioning_and_surveillance.html

Senna

dorgasm wrote: »

Well I forgot to mention, my friend wasn't alone. Another one of my friends was there too but wasn't being questioned as intensely. Neither of my friends were drinking so I'm inclined to believe them, but I understand your point. When the guard stuck his hand in my pocket, my friend did say something along the lines of "Get your hand out, you can't do that", that's when the guard got thick with him.

Was it you or you "friend", changing story now are we??? You sound guilty to me, you were out molesting cats again, weren't you?

Yakult

Senna wrote: »

If the story is exactly as your friend states (usually it isn't), then the garda was a toolbag.

Inclined to agree with this. Stories can be pretty exaggerated to make them appear in the right and law in the wrong.

I would get hes name & badge number right away. Don't know would it go very far but it might make him think twice about doing something similar again.

Was he young or old do you know?

UnknownSpecies

Senna wrote: »

Was it you or you "friend", changing story now are we??? You sound guilty to me, you were out molesting cats again, weren't you?

Ha slip of the keyboard. Genuinely wasn't me, to be honest if it was me, there is no reason for me to hide it? And I would probably be posting angry messages as opposed to trying to discuss it!

UnknownSpecies

Yakult wrote: »

Inclined to agree with this. Stories can be pretty exaggerated to make them appear in the right and law in the wrong.

I would get hes name & badge number right away. Don't know would it go very far but it might make him think twice about doing something similar again.

Was he young or old do you know?

Well the story isn't that bad so don't see why they would embellish it. And I don't know if he was young or old, I'll find out sometime in the morning though.

TomBeckett

Emm as bad as they are at home... Ya want to see the bunch of pull bags over here!!! they are pure scum no way would i let one of them put his hand in my pocket here you could be sure he would put something in your pocket and prob cost you 40.000baht (1000euro) to pay the cu*t off... in fairnest in ireland they are not too bad well most of them anyway they have rules they must obey or you could go to the super or the ombudsman.. here there is no law if your a falang you must pay!! yes its a lovely paradise cheap great weather good roads great hospitals but its run by a pack of monkeys:D

ArseBook

Kara Ashy Wintergreen wrote: »

They do what they can get away with......

I'd advise anyone, even when you're buying property to have a good look at what solicitors are available to you.

The law is only as good as your ethics, your solicitor and the constitution. I'd suggest everyone read the constitution.

The police force in this country has historically been made up of morons who passed a tie-your-shoelace aptidude test and love the ego trip. The only advantage they have over you is authority which is quickly taken away if you have a decent solicitor.

hatrickpatrick

I'd say that's almost definitely grounds for a complaint. I'd absolutely advise your friend to make one, link below.

They have to have a reasonable suspicion that you are actively involved in doing something illegal. In this case that sounds highly unlikely.

Also, the fact that he actually stuck his hand in your friend's pocket without explaining himself or clarifying first definitely sounds like something he shouldn't have done.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/arrests/powers_of_search.html

A garda can ask you to stop at any time. In certain circumstances, such as when you are driving, you must stop if asked to by a Garda. A garda can search you, without your consent, if the garda has reasonable suspicion that you have committed an offence. This includes people under the age of 18. The Garda should tell you why you are being searched.

It's the fact that this was done without explanation or indication that makes it dodgy. That's definitely not allowed.

http://www.gsoc.ie/ - Tell your friend to fill out the form on this website and see where it gets you. In cases like this it's obviously incredibly hard to prove anything, one person's word against another, but if they do decide to investigate it, being investigated for it might at least make this guy think twice before doing something like that again to someone else.

EDIT: In before I once again get accused of police bashing for expecting them to stick to the rules :rolleyes:

Son Of A Vidic

Sindri wrote: »

Interestingly enough I know a story, completely true, where two Guards arrested a man. They didn't ask any questions just arrested him on the spot. He was brought down to the jail cells and spent the night there.

Turns out the Guards thought he was a well known local drug dealer and they'd mistaken him for the drug dealer.
They lost their jobs.

They lost their jobs for wrongful arrest?.......Not likely, it would take a lot more than that I'm afraid.

Potential-Monke

I doubt the story as you've told it, like others have said there's the story and then there's the truth. But if they believe strongly enough that they were harrassed for no reason then thats what the Ombudsman Commission are for.

amacachi

They can do what they want. "Ordinary, decent people" don't and won't care until it affects them or someone close to them.

marcsignal

I was walking home very early one morning recently, having blown my brains out on lovely sticky weed in my friends place, about a month ago.
A Garda car rolled up beside me, i aproached the car, removed my hat and said 'hiya lads'. They asked me where I was coming from, and I told them I was on the way home from a friends place, and en-route straight home. They replied 'sorry, we thought you were someone we know' I said 'Is that something I should be worried about?' (laughing). They replied, 'No, not to worry' and off they went.

Now, if it wasn't obvious to them I was stoned out of my bin, they are not much use as Guards. Nevertheless, it didn't impinge on my civil rights. They drove away, and I stumbled home. No Drama.

I respect the Guards. I wouldn't do their job for any money.

Sindri

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

They lost their jobs for wrongful arrest?.......Not likely, it would take a lot more than that I'm afraid.

It wasn't wrongful arrest, they had no grounds to arrest the man or the man he was mistaken for but they decided to just get the man he was mistaken for off the street and hold him over night. They didn't ask questions it was just simply to lock him up for the night. The man protested and tried to clarify his identity but they were having none of it. They had no grounds for an arrest in the first place, to arrest the real man, so that's why they lost their jobs.

TheZohanS

You do realise anything the cops find in an illegal search cannot be submitted in court? Yeah?

Jimmy Garlic

Templemore is a seminary for guards. An ungulate mecca. I would love to be a fly on the wall.

LighterGuy

TheZohan wrote: »

You do realise anything the cops find in an illegal search cannot be submitted in court? Yeah?

Problem is, who is to say it was illegal.
Sure you could. But who is likely to be believed. Mister Gardai man who is the law ... or common person who had something illegal is their pockets.

Pdfile

dorgasm wrote: »

Tonight my friend was stopped by a guard for no reason. He was simply walking down the road to home and they pulled the squad car up to him and proceeded to interrogate him.

First of all, the guard slipped his hand straight into his pocket, without warning or permission, and tried to pull his wallet out, is this allowed? When my friend protested, the guard replied "I'll do whatever the fuck I have the right to do". Now I'm not saying the guard is NOT allowed do this, to be honest I have no idea! In the end, my friend was let go as he was not up to no good and didn't have anything dodgy on him, no explanation from the guards either.

My initial thought, perhaps due to the stuff you'd hear on American TV shows about people and their rights, would be that this sort of random interrogation and searching a person's pocket would be against the law.

So I'm just wondering was the guard within his rights to do what he did? And also, do you think we have false assumptions about what our rights really are?

this happens, just make sure you always stay calm cool and collected because at the end of the day their in uniform, you're not.

if anything Worse had of happened and you took him to court not only is it you're word against his BUT: 1) he has a witness who is also a gaurd, 2) judges without admitting it are bias, even a jury would be on the basis that you at the height of you're Whiter then white status in society are below them, simply because they are keepers of the peace, their accounts perceived to be more accurate etc. 3) claims against unruly gaurds normally fall on deaf ears, and this is annoying, should you ever lose the head about it you're giving away the little face you had and the ball is in their court.


Odds are against you're friend op by default...

seanybiker

Afaik as long as they have "reason to believe" then they can search a person.
Your mate met a fella on a power trip

MagicSean

minidazzler wrote: »

AFAIK, they have to give a reason for the search or ask you. Regardless, I would refuse, I like to make **** awkward for people who think they can go through my pockets,

They don't have to give a reason and you can't legally refuse if they tell you they are searching you under a statutory power. In the ops case, as he tells it, this search would only be lawful if the Garda believed that the person had something in his pocket such as a weapon. But it's a very stupid Garda that puts his hand in someone's pocket like that. That's just asking for a needle injury.

ArseBook wrote: »

I'd advise anyone, even when you're buying property to have a good look at what solicitors are available to you.

The law is only as good as your ethics, your solicitor and the constitution. I'd suggest everyone read the constitution.

The police force in this country has historically been made up of morons who passed a tie-your-shoelace aptidude test and love the ego trip. The only advantage they have over you is authority which is quickly taken away if you have a decent solicitor.

I reckon I'm probably as educated and as intelligent as you, if not more so, so does that mean you're a moron too?

Sindri wrote: »

It wasn't wrongful arrest, they had no grounds to arrest the man or the man he was mistaken for but they decided to just get the man he was mistaken for off the street and hold him over night. They didn't ask questions it was just simply to lock him up for the night. The man protested and tried to clarify his identity but they were having none of it. They had no grounds for an arrest in the first place, to arrest the real man, so that's why they lost their jobs.

This is either incredibly simplified or made up. Your reference to "real man" makes me think your a freeman talking ****e. By "lost their jobs" you probably mean " finished their shift."

mconigol

dorgasm wrote: »

Tonight my friend was stopped by a guard for no reason. He was simply walking down the road to home and they pulled the squad car up to him and proceeded to interrogate him.

First of all, the guard slipped his hand straight into his pocket, without warning or permission, and tried to pull his wallet out, is this allowed? When my friend protested, the guard replied "I'll do whatever the fuck I have the right to do". Now I'm not saying the guard is NOT allowed do this, to be honest I have no idea! In the end, my friend was let go as he was not up to no good and didn't have anything dodgy on him, no explanation from the guards either.

My initial thought, perhaps due to the stuff you'd hear on American TV shows about people and their rights, would be that this sort of random interrogation and searching a person's pocket would be against the law.

So I'm just wondering was the guard within his rights to do what he did? And also, do you think we have false assumptions about what our rights really are?

He was probably just looking for coppers...

Sindri

MagicSean wrote: »

This is either incredibly simplified or made up. Your reference to "real man" makes me think your a freeman talking ****e. By "lost their jobs" you probably mean " finished their shift."

What's with the cynicism?

I'll go slow. Just for you.;)

There was a man. He looked like another man. The police saw this man and mistook him for the other man. They took him in to the station and held him over night in a cell. The police had no grounds for this arrest in the first place (now listen carefully, the next part is paramount;)) they just intended to take the other man of the streets:eek:.

They were abusing their powers in the first place just taking the man in for no reason yet they arrested the wrong man. When he protested and said they were mistaken they didn't care as they had arrested him illegally and all the wanted to do is leave him in the cell for the night.

It might help you understand better if you knew that this did not occur in Dublin.

Then they lost their jobs.

If your face is still like this afterwards then I can't help you.

MagicSean

Sindri wrote: »

What's with the cynicism?

I'll go slow. Just for you.;)

There was a man. He looked like another man. The police saw this man and mistook him for the other man. They took him in to the station and held him over night in a cell. The police had no grounds for this arrest in the first place (now listen carefully, the next part is paramount;)) they just intended to take the other man of the streets:eek:.

They were abusing their powers in the first place just taking the man in for no reason yet they arrested the wrong man. When he protested and said they were mistaken they didn't care as they had arrested him illegally and all the wanted to do is leave him in the cell for the night.

It might help you understand better if you knew that this did not occur in Dublin.

Then they lost their jobs.

If your face is still like this afterwards then I can't help you.

How can you go slow on an Internet forum?

Sindri

MagicSean wrote: »

How can you go slow on an Internet forum?

Ever heard of an expression?

It means I will make sure you can comprehend what it is I am saying. If that eluded you, I can't help you.

Feisar

Funny enough I was stopped by the PSNI last night on the way home from the gym (driving).

Asked where I was headed asked for ID, confirm DOB, how long have you been in Belfast (I'm from the Republic), where you heading?

No bother, answered the questions and he said head on and safe home.

The gentleman was nicely spoken and courteous.

I've no problem with the Police randomly asking basic details.

Duggy747

Tell your mate to make a complaint, not that it would actually do a thing, but it would add up on him if he carried on with that craìc.

Nothing worse than a power tripping Garda, especially one who'll think they can get away with how they treat people.

About 3 years ago I had one Garda pull me over when I was walking home one night. He started accusing me of being at a scene when Gardaì jackets were stolen from the boot of their car (They had gone into a pub and left the boot open, everything got maced) and that I was laughing directly at him on that night

I told him to go check the cameras all he want, that I wasn't near the pub at all on said night. He then says:

"Right, we're watching you. Go home like a good little boy now!"

Fùckin' twerp was my age :mad:

Sky King

Like any job really. A lot of sound guys, a lot of dicks.

And it's nearly worth learning to speak fluent Irish just so you can bust their nut.

Or failing that know your exact rights. For example, a garde can't just 'bring you down to the station' you have to go willingly or he has to arrest you, and if he arrests you, he has to tell you why you are being arrested.

MagicSean

Sindri wrote: »

Ever heard of an expression?

It means I will make sure you can comprehend what it is I am saying. If that eluded you, I can't help you.

You can type as slow as you want. I'll still read it the same speed. Its a stupid insult to use on the Internet.

I still reckon your story is bull**** though.

Sindri

MagicSean wrote: »

You can type as slow as you want. I'll still read it the same speed. Its a stupid insult to use on the Internet.

I still reckon your story is bull**** though.

Ah internet arguing. Where the ego rules and one can sate its thirst with impunity without the niceties of society.

It wasn't an insult. Why would you think that? There no point discussing this if that's how you view it. Anyway it's a well known expression that can be used anywhere, just because it was used against you doesn't subtract from it's validity.

You responses are very aggressive, the first one was extremely cynical for whatever reason I don't why. I mean if I told you this in person would you have responded the way you did? What vested interest do you have in disproving me.

Whatever issues you had with the story you could have outlined them and I would have been happy to answer them.

Anyway it doesn't matter if you don't believe the story, for all of that it doesn't stop it from being true.

mattser

Good nights sleep badly needed

Conall Cernach

Feisar wrote: »

Funny enough I was stopped by the PSNI last night on the way home from the gym (driving).

Asked where I was headed asked for ID, confirm DOB, how long have you been in Belfast (I'm from the Republic), where you heading?

No bother, answered the questions and he said head on and safe home.

The gentleman was nicely spoken and courteous.

I've no problem with the Police randomly asking basic details.

I was stopped in a car by those same "gentlemen". They took us all out of the car and did the usual standing search, where you going? etc and searched the car. When we got back into the car I noticed my phone was missing. They have the power to seize phones etc. but they must at least give you notice that they are doing so. These boys are crooks plain and simple.

I have also heard anecdotal reports of Guards stopping young fellas (teens and younger) in Dublin and taking their phones off them for no reason.

Jimmy Garlic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hx6s_hpI8w

http://www.prlog.org/10599313-pig-farm.jpg

UnknownSpecies

I've noticed a few people suggesting my friend was annoyed at being randomly searched but he wasn't. He had no problem answering questions and all that but it's the fact that the guard stuck his hand in his pocket without permission and then acted like a dick when he protested, that's what he was annoyed about.

MagicSean

Sindri wrote: »

Ah internet arguing. Where the ego rules and one can sate its thirst with impunity without the niceties of society.

It wasn't an insult. Why would you think that? There no point discussing this if that's how you view it. Anyway it's a well known expression that can be used anywhere, just because it was used against you doesn't subtract from it's validity.

You responses are very aggressive, the first one was extremely cynical for whatever reason I don't why. I mean if I told you this in person would you have responded the way you did? What vested interest do you have in disproving me.

Whatever issues you had with the story you could have outlined them and I would have been happy to answer them.

Anyway it doesn't matter if you don't believe the story, for all of that it doesn't stop it from being true.

Ah crap. I just noticed your post count. Didn't realise you were trolling. Well played sir.

hatrickpatrick

MagicSean wrote: »

They don't have to give a reason

Evidently they do - check the Citizen's Information link I left over the page.

sdanseo

Sindri wrote: »

I thought Gardaí in uniform weren't allowed to search you. Maybe I'm wrong.

Interestingly enough I know a story, completely true, where two Guards arrested a man. They didn't ask any questions just arrested him on the spot. He was brought down to the jail cells and spent the night there.

Turns out the Guards thought he was a well known local drug dealer and they'd mistaken him for the drug dealer.
They lost their jobs.

Anyway tell your friend to report it to the Garda Ombudsman if he felt his rights were impinged.

Absolute rubbish that post. Gardaí in uniform not allowed to search you? Sacked for arresting someone on suspicion of something?

Utter garbage.

OP, the best thing for your friend to have done, or to do if he still feels aggreived, it to talk to the Sergeant in the station where the Guard is from. That way a chat can be had without going through a huge pile of officialdom and bull****, and the Guard won't end up disciplined harshly for what was in reality a little heavy-handedness, by the sounds of things.