Training Supplement’s

crashoveroid

Hi All

I have decided this year to try taking Maxifuel Creatamax to help improve my training. Had any one else used this or similar products or what products have you found that helped.

Just in case any one asks i am racing and going to try and upgrade next year to A2. I have had a good season in 2011 and hoping to progress again in 2012.

niceonetom

I'm no scientician but creatine is generally not thought to be of any significant benefit for endurance athletes and it comes with a risk of weight gain (though water retention as well as muscle mass gain if you supply the calories) so you may end up making the hills harder for yourself. It's for lifters and explosive athletes. Maybe trackies, but not roadies.

crashoveroid

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm no scientician but creatine is generally not thought to be of any significant benefit for endurance athletes and it comes with a risk of weight gain (though water retention as well as muscle mass gain if you supply the calories) so you may end up making the hills harder for yourself. It's for lifters and explosive athletes. Maybe trackies, but not roadies.

I understand what you are say but the product im using is said to designed for endurance athletes
http://www.maxifuel.com/creatamaxcaps

niceonetom

The word "endurance" is used but from the context and tone I'm guessing it's intended to imply that this'll help you get in an extra set or two lifts, not help you in the last 20km of a three hour race.

Creatine is creatine. It occurs naturally as well as in supplements. It can't be "designed" to be appropriate for one sport or another any more than any other specific chemical can.

RobFowl

Snake oil I'm afraid.

Creatine causes bulking up of the muscles due to fluid retension. No positive effect in road cycling at all.

Stick to a good balanced diet and you'll get everything you need.

Here's a good guide to sports nutrition.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition

Icyseanfitz

chuck the creatine and just get a regular protein shake to take after long rides, as other lads have pointed out it isnt properly suited to cycling

billy.fish

*Performance physiologist hat on*

So, creatine has a possible purpose for certain aspects of cycling. Mainly repeat anaerobic efforts. The mechanism being that it can mop the excess phosphate ions, bind them with creatine, give you creatinephosphate and allow you to recruit the PCr system. This is the system that fuels events <5s it also contributes to the faster glycogen use up to about 3 mins. However.. this then takes 1-3 mins to replenish in TOTAL rest for just the 5s burst, more for the rest. It cannot repleat on the fly.

What our resident MD says is also very true, even more-so that studies show that there is <5% actual success rate with it and a similar sample size showing a negative increase in performance.

So if you do an event lasting for <5seconds for a maximal effort then over within about 1-3 mins try it followed by long shifts between events; ie if you ride the kilo or BMX.

Caveat; there are NO long term studies on the health implications of creatine supplementation. We have no idea what it does, we know it damages the renal system by an increase in the amount of fluid the body tries to shift, we know it may damage the hepatic system due to the associated glycogen shifting with fluid shifts.

*puts on reality hat*

If you want expensive piss go for it. Otherwise ride your bike more often and more forcefully. Save up, buy a power meter.

*Science hat*
Also, L-Carnitine.....unproven. More expensive piss.

chakattack

How about phospate loading and the claimed (temporary) 8-13% increase in VO2 max?

Expensive piss?

billy.fish

Not an area I've read much into if I am honest.

I'd be worried/confused why phosphates would have anything to do with peak VO2max values though? A Direct measure or O2 uptake regulated by O2 demanded by working muscle.

*off top of head*
Suppose phosphates could have an action on the lactate shuttling. It is a base so could act as a buffer I suppose. Don't know where/how/if they fit in with NadH and FadH, if anything I'd suspect they'd be mopped up by binding to O and H, might have an effect on pyruvate. Not sure that they'd get that much attention as most other bases have been shown to be fairly ineffectual compared to the gastric issues they cause. Sorta not worth the hassle in most cases and once again limited to shorter efforts and not so effective at higher sustained workloads.

Like I said, not something I've read into!

billy.fish

On the other side...phosphates are a major enzyme regulator aren't they...hmmm.

They also have a massive roll to play in muscle contraction and relaxing.

Unfortunately not water soluble either...so maybe not the best.

QED: not expensive piss, expensive not excreatable blood born metal

chakattack

Something like this - I'll let you decipher the quackery

http://www.carbopro.ca/page/1002444

billy.fish

Looks like it makes the tea too....

The amount of crud crammed in there is bound to do something, let alone the fact that there are 3 stimulants in the mix.

I think I'll stick with training. Gives all the same results.

Also, they are quoting clinical results; show me the papers. Otherwise..sod off.

If anyone wants to make a cheeky data inquiry its always a good start. As far as I can see they are good at quoting other peoples work, not doing any.

Remember clinical trials usually equal results in a population. Not a population of CYCLISTS. But a population. This could be middle aged one legged hopping Buddhist monks who live at 3,000m for all you know.

Now, Extreme Endurance (I am not involved, related to, endorsing, anything to this company) actually gave me the raw data when I asked for it, it was pretty good, not cleaned data, but ok. HOWEVER, small sample sizes do not a good product make. This data was pulled from athletes, triathletes, and was a great representation of the target group. They have some rugby data too that I wasn't bothered looking at.

*deep breath* /rant

I'll wait for Tunney to come along and badmouth E-E. Frankly their postage rates are insane hence I never tried it.

Now, beta-alinine...that is something I do like

levitronix

If you wana spend your money just buy a protein shake to aid your recovery

billy.fish

levitronix wrote: »

If you wana spend your money just buy a protein shake to aid your recovery

Or save even more by just eating meat.

TBH the whole protein shake and bio-avalibility thing is an even bigger crock.

morana

I thought Sodium Phosphate if thats what were talking about loosened the bond between Oxygen and the haemaglobin and allowed more O2 to the working muscles.I am sure I seen a study on pubmed once.

So you are telling me Creatine will let me do loads of jumps in a race? I would think thats a plus

Harrybelafonte

billy.fish wrote: »

Or save even more by just eating meat.

TBH the whole protein shake and bio-avalibility thing is an even bigger crock.

What's your take on vegetable proteins?

billy.fish

morana wrote: »

I thought Sodium Phosphate if thats what were talking about loosened the bond between Oxygen and the haemaglobin and allowed more O2 to the working muscles.I am sure I seen a study on pubmed once.

Its the mitochondria that are the problem, not releasing 02 from the haemoglobin, they are limited by the amount of them to deliver O2 as well as the ability of the cells to process, so mitochondrial density.

morana wrote: »

So you are telling me Creatine will let me do loads of jumps in a race? I would think thats a plus

No I'm not. If you read what I said, I said total rest. It would be ok if you could jump, then stop exercising. Then jump 5 mins later. However I suspect this would not work

Most of the power studies that are used for creatine come from static power events like weight lifting where you can take a total rest in between efforts.

billy.fish

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

What's your take on vegetable proteins?

From what I am aware, not as good levels of bio-avalibility, but potentially less issues if you subscribe to the whole re-dox thing (antioxidants).

kumate_champ07

chicken, beef, milk

lots of water

veg, rice, brown bread, oats

magnesium citrate(400mg), zinc picolinate(50mg), high dose of vitamin c before serious training/racing
(for me thats 2000mg but Im not recommending this for everyone, not much research material out there on the effects of high dosage, only 1000mg spread over the day for a number of weeks is documented with no performance gains shown)

and a good multivitamin

RobFowl

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

chicken, beef, milk

lots of water

veg, rice, brown bread, oats

magnesium citrate(400mg), zinc picolinate(50mg), high dose of vitamin c before serious training/racing
(for me thats 2000mg but Im not recommending this for everyone, not much research material out there on the effects of high dosage, only 1000mg spread over the day for a number of weeks is documented with no performance gains shown)

and a good multivitamin

Fresh fruits and Veg esp green leafy veg needed here !!!

greenmat

What do you eat/drink after cycling to aid recovery? Haven't tried protein shakes, was told was of very little benefit. Have a thing for eggs and milkshakes after cycling so same thing I suppose.

morana

billy.fish wrote: »

No I'm not. If you read what I said, I said total rest. It would be ok if you could jump, then stop exercising. Then jump 5 mins later. However I suspect this would not work

Most of the power studies that are used for creatine come from static power events like weight lifting where you can take a total rest in between efforts.

But would it not be relative? total rest = quicker to be able to jump hard again. Or sit in doing 90w in the middle of the group out of the wind it takes x mins longer but this strategy is doable.

Tenzor07

billy.fish wrote: »

Now, beta-alinine...that is something I do like

Greg, what do you reckon about this review:

Many people often question whether beta-alanine would work better than creatine in terms of increasing the body's ability to tolerate exercise but it's important to note that they are doing opposite things here.

Creatine is working to ensure that you have sufficient ATP (high energy molecule that powers exercise) in the body, while beta-alanine essentially is making sure the environment for exercise stays favorable.

billy.fish

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Greg, what do you reckon about this review:

Many people often question whether beta-alanine would work better than creatine in terms of increasing the body's ability to tolerate exercise but it's important to note that they are doing opposite things here.

Creatine is working to ensure that you have sufficient ATP (high energy molecule that powers exercise) in the body, while beta-alanine essentially is making sure the environment for exercise stays favorable.

You got the paper name? Kinda hard to comment without reading persons entire thoughts

It's not so much about tolerating exercise, but tolerating the lack of ATP to fuel that action at the speed that the ATP is being demanded at.

It's not incorrect what they are saying about beta-alinine being more of a 'environmental' action, but it also has a lot of other things going on. Quite a bit of work looking at its use for weight loss and mood states. Both of which were my interest.

billy.fish

morana wrote: »

But would it not be relative? total rest = quicker to be able to jump hard again. Or sit in doing 90w in the middle of the group out of the wind it takes x mins longer but this strategy is doable.

Because metabolic systems don't work as a relative rest. Its just how it is.

All complaints to be directed to ; The Krebs cycle, your body, your cells, your enzymes.

billy.fish

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

and a good multivitamin

Why if you are getting all the nutrients you need in your normal diet? You could be increasing other things above levels that will reduce certain nutrients ability to be absorbed.

Multivits also fall into the expensive piss in my opinion.

Tenzor07

billy.fish wrote: »

You got the paper name? Kinda hard to comment without reading persons entire thoughts

It was part of this article: Here

I see Creatine and Beta-alinine was part of that awful "Jack3D" :eek:

billy.fish

Oh...I assumed review = scientific review.

Sometimes though others can be ahead of us I will admit that.

morana

billy.fish wrote: »

Why if you are getting all the nutrients you need in your normal diet? You could be increasing other things above levels that will reduce certain nutrients ability to be absorbed.

Multivits also fall into the expensive piss in my opinion.

I thought it was just the refilling of some energy stores and that fact that you would be predominately using some other system it would assist you.

Krebs...I prefer the Citric acid cycle myself.

lalorm

I'm a road cyclist and here's my list of sups and what I've noticed since taking them...
First the regular Multivit with Zinc for immune system.
Glucosamine - Good for the joints. I notice my knees more when I dont take it.
Fish Oils - Omega 3 etc.
Optimum Nutrition 100% Gold standad Whey Protein. As a drink in the morning or afternoon. Mint Choc flavour. Mmmmm.
Optimum Nutrition Creatine. I've been taking it for a while and haven't bulked up. It isn't so bad if you use a half dose. I have felt a difference when using it. Mainly in initial bursts such as a sprint or a quick reaction when you need to put force on the pedal. The longer you sprint, the less the effect. It's just for the quick burst of effort when it works for you. Just need to drink more water when taking this.
Optimum Nutrition 2:1:1 Recovery. Great stuff. I swear by this stuff. Since taking it after training I don't get colds so often and feel better quicker. Sherry Active tablets - Great antioxident if you can't stomach the drink, this works as well.
Coconut water. Great for hydration after a hard training session.

12 sprocket

lalorm wrote: »

I'm a road cyclist and here's my list of sups and what I've noticed since taking them...
First the regular Multivit with Zinc for immune system.
Glucosamine - Good for the joints. I notice my knees more when I dont take it.
Fish Oils - Omega 3 etc.
Optimum Nutrition 100% Gold standad Whey Protein. As a drink in the morning or afternoon. Mint Choc flavour. Mmmmm.
Optimum Nutrition Creatine. I've been taking it for a while and haven't bulked up. It isn't so bad if you use a half dose. I have felt a difference when using it. Mainly in initial bursts such as a sprint or a quick reaction when you need to put force on the pedal. The longer you sprint, the less the effect. It's just for the quick burst of effort when it works for you. Just need to drink more water when taking this.
Optimum Nutrition 2:1:1 Recovery. Great stuff. I swear by this stuff. Since taking it after training I don't get colds so often and feel better quicker. Sherry Active tablets - Great antioxident if you can't stomach the drink, this works as well.
Coconut water. Great for hydration after a hard training session.

Im just wondering how you train? do you compete? and do you eat normal foods?

lalorm

12 sprocket wrote: »

Im just wondering how you train? do you compete? and do you eat normal foods?

I train at the moment 2 days in the gym, 2-3 days on the turbo and at the weekends on the road with the club.

I raced this year and I used the Whey protein and 2:1:1 recovery during this years season as well as much of the other stuff except for the Creatine. I try to eat healthy, but that said I eat anything really. I just try to limit how much of the 'bad' stuff I eat. A typical day for me would be...

When I get up:
Protein shake.

Breakfast:
Coffee + 2 sugar + milk
1 boiled egg
bowl of Porridge.

Snack:
Green tea no sugar.
Banana

Lunch:
Protein (chop, chicken, fish etc)
2 veg no spuds.
a small side salad
Jogurt for desert.
Coffee with milk and sugar.

Afternoon snack:
Protein shake and/or bowl of porridge together with Creatine about an hour before training.

post exercise:
2:1:1 Recovery shake

Evening meal:
Omlette with smoked salmon and spinach leaves.

evening snack:
Dark chocolate (Antioxidant )

I'll start to build on my training soon, so I'll start eating a bit more as increase the effort in the sessions.

billy.fish

So personal opinion on the antioxidant is that its all tosh. Quite a 50/50 break in the literature on it.

Also, why put milk and sugar in coffee? you're just ruining the coffee.

12 sprocket

lalorm wrote: »

I train at the moment 2 days in the gym, 2-3 days on the turbo and at the weekends on the road with the club.

I raced this year and I used the Whey protein and 2:1:1 recovery during this years season as well as much of the other stuff except for the Creatine. I try to eat healthy, but that said I eat anything really. I just try to limit how much of the 'bad' stuff I eat. A typical day for me would be...

When I get up:
Protein shake.

Breakfast:
Coffee + 2 sugar + milk
1 boiled egg
bowl of Porridge.

Snack:
Green tea no sugar.
Banana

Lunch:
Protein (chop, chicken, fish etc)
2 veg no spuds.
a small side salad
Jogurt for desert.
Coffee with milk and sugar.

Afternoon snack:
Protein shake and/or bowl of porridge together with Creatine about an hour before training.

post exercise:
2:1:1 Recovery shake

Evening meal:
Omlette with smoked salmon and spinach leaves.

evening snack:
Dark chocolate (Antioxidant )

I'll start to build on my training soon, so I'll start eating a bit more as increase the effort in the sessions.

It looks like you are using very expensive protein as a fuel as there is hardly enough carbohydrate in the daily diet as outlined for the exercise.
What this means is that you most likely have less protein for repairing and building muscle than you think you have as its being broken down to supply energy... RIGHT BILLY FISH LETS HAVE YOU! am I correct??

lalorm

12 sprocket wrote: »

It looks like you are using very expensive protein as a fuel as there is hardly enough carbohydrate in the daily diet as outlined for the exercise.
What this means is that you most likely have less protein for repairing and building muscle than you think you have as its being broken down to supply energy... RIGHT BILLY FISH LETS HAVE YOU! am I correct??

At the moment, I've cut back on starchy cards like potatoes, pasta and rice etc since I'm trying to loose a few pounds of excess fat in the base period of training. The intensity has been rather low, so not killing myself while on the bike, just at the gym . I'm eating more protein which I need to repair muscle and I'm not loosing muscle mass. In fact I've gained a little. The protein is expensive, but I've tried a number of different brands, and This one tastes the best and it's easy to take. The recovery drink is worth it for sure.
As I start to increase the intensity I'll start taking in more carbs again as needed while also keeping the protein intake.
@Billy.Fish, Coffee isn't coffee without milk and sugar!!

billy.fish

12 sprocket wrote: »

RIGHT BILLY FISH LETS HAVE YOU! am I correct??

You sir, will not be having any of me. I don't roll like that*.

The whole, carbohydrate (CHO) reccomendations are a bit mental, fair enough there is a minium amount you need to make your brain work in the form of glycogen, but other than that we can get by on day to day activity on fat and gluconeogenisis (making glycogen from other stuff). The trick is when you start to look at exercise intensity as a deciding cause of CHO needs. The whole protein as a fuel thing...its very poor for this. Our body goes; CHO, Fat; muscle (by product amonia and other nasty things); other bits. The actual usage of protein is pretty minimal, fats will be used first.

In this case, all you are doing is wasting money on easy to administer but poorly absorbing proteins as opposed to easy, cheap, bioavalible protein from normal real food sources. NOW, I do take the odd protein shake or recovery shake (REGO = parptastic tastyness) but I would not bother using them in my daily nutritional intake as they are SUPPLEMENTS not substitutes.




*unless you're Christian Bale in which case 'look I'm covered in honey!'

billy.fish

lalorm wrote: »

At the moment, I've cut back on starchy cards like potatoes, pasta and rice etc since I'm trying to loose a few pounds of excess fat in the base period of training.

*facepalm* You're still taking in other things that are going to do this anyway -milk, sugar, have a look at the CHO/fat content in your protein shakes, I've got 1 popular one in the house one that has *goes off to check* 1.9g of CHO and Fat per 30 - so 3.8g - 110kcal (127W NP ride for 1hour) Do you realise how much energy these things contain?

lalorm wrote: »

The intensity has been rather low, so not killing myself while on the bike, just at the gym . I'm eating more protein which I need to repair muscle and I'm not loosing muscle mass.

Twoddle. Eat normal.

lalorm wrote: »

In fact I've gained a little. The protein is expensive, but I've tried a number of different brands, and This one tastes the best and it's easy to take. The recovery drink is worth it for sure.
As I start to increase the intensity I'll start taking in more carbs again as needed while also keeping the protein intake.

You are also aware that protein uptake is directly regulated by CHO intake? and so are several other hormones like ohh...testosterone, HGH, cortisone...you know..the ones that keep you..well sane and alive.

lalorm wrote: »

@Billy.Fish, Coffee isn't coffee without milk and sugar!!

I do not subscribe to your crazy talk. Do you like beer with milk and sugar? Would that make it more beer-y? You don't like coffee, you like milk and sugar.

Also, the green tea as a antioxidant....its also showing that it may damage the hepatic system in certain circumstances. So don't go mental.

/rant

victorcarrera

@ lalorm

That diet and training schedule seems to be very intense for an amateur if you are dedicated to it.
What level were you at in 2011 or what category races do you hope to win in 2012 ?

lalorm

@Billy.Fish, Whey Protein is digested and absorbed very quickly, which can be advantageous when demand is high (post workout and first thing in the morning). No other protein source can so rapidly deliver amino acids to the blood and positively effect protein synthesis. They are rich in the amino acids that are critical to developing and sustaining new muscle mass. As for the amount of carbs I'm eating. I'm eating pleanty but I've cut back a little on the more startchy ones such as potatoes and pasta. Most people could do with cutting back on their carbs especially in the off season. I don't see the harm in adding a little protein to my diet and I think most cyclists don't realise the importance of protein. We are not body builders, but we do need to maintain our muscles and give them what they need. Whey is a way to help. I didn't always take protein and I used to suffer alot with colds and a week immune system. Any time I'd train hard, I'd get a cold. Adding the recovery drink and Whey protein helped my immune system and without it I could not have raced as I did this year. A little added calories from them doesn't matter when you consider what cyclists burn during training. What's your typical food day in comparison?

@victorcarrera: I'm training around 10 hours a week give or take. 8 hours on the bike which includes a 4hr spin on Saturday/Sunday and 2 hours in the gym a week with 1 rest day. So far it's been mainly aerobic with a little Threshold work. I do this in blocks of 3 weeks and then take a week to recover and rest. I've read other posts where people are doing alot more hours than me. I only started back racing this year but I got back into cycling since 2006. I used to train and race back in the 80's!! I started this year with A4 and hopefully I'll go to A3 next year.

victorcarrera

I think the only way to catch a cold is to come into contact with someone who already has it.

And From: CI Technical Regulations.

APPENDIX AT.1 - ANTI-DOPING
...

Cycling Ireland would recommend, based on research, the avoidance of all supplements.

http://www.irishsportscouncil.ie/Anti-Doping/Medicines_TUEs/Supplements_Nutrition/Supplements_and_Sports_Food_Policy.html

lalorm

@victorcarrera: If your immune system is weak then you are more susceptible to colds if you come in contact with someone that has one. Also, there are no banned substances in Whey Protein!

billy.fish

lalorm wrote: »

@victorcarrera: If your immune system is weak then you are more susceptible to colds if you come in contact with someone that has one. Also, there are no banned substances in Whey Protein!

You didn't read that did you.

The stance is to avoid all supplements. Its not the protein I'd be worried about but where it was made. Many companies have been caught out in the past over this. About 2 years ago Maxiuscle for example had a huge issue where they found that Creatamax and Viper EXTREME(!!!111!!!eleventyone) had been contaminated with an anabolic agent.

Just cause it says protein on the tin, does not mean it is. Note that if you hold a CI licence, or use a one day, you sign up to the WADA code and are 100% responsible for what goes into your body. As the Irish Sports Council stance is no supplements you need to be careful on this.

It's a hard point to discus logically, but its is the stance, so not much comeback on it.

billy.fish

lalorm wrote: »

@Billy.Fish, .... What's your typical food day in comparison?

ERm...not really any of your business TBH. Also having a lactose intollerence and a few other medical issues not something I'm going to discus with someone I don't know.

Suffice to say I'm happy with my body composition and UCI points.

lalorm

@Billy.Fish: This thread asked a question about supplements and what people are taking and if they worked for them. I simply answered with a few details of what I currently take and the effects they had for me. Why you seem hell bent on attacking me on this topic I don't understand. I didn't ask for your medical history, I simply thought you might be able to offer an insight into what you consider to be a good balanced diet while training and how maybe you think supplements could be replaced by 'normal' food. I consider your attitude on this thread to be rather poor. I won't be replying to any further comments you add to this thread since I refuse to be drawn further into your rant. :mad:

Lumen

From what little information is publicly available about the diet of competitive pro cyclists, I haven't seen much reference to protein supplements like whey.

If the pros don't find them useful, with their massive training load and constant threat of unemployment if they underperform, then why should amateurs?

AstraMonti

Lumen wrote: »

If the pros don't find them useful, with their massive training load and constant threat of unemployment if they underperform, then why should amateurs?

I think the reason lies in the fact that the diet of a pro is specifically built, monitored and tuned for his every day needs. We can't afford/have time to do that so I guess a supplement is as good as it gets.

billy.fish

lalorm wrote: »

@Billy.Fish: This thread asked a question about supplements and what people are taking and if they worked for them. I simply answered with a few details of what I currently take and the effects they had for me. Why you seem hell bent on attacking me on this topic I don't understand. I didn't ask for your medical history, I simply thought you might be able to offer an insight into what you consider to be a good balanced diet while training and how maybe you think supplements could be replaced by 'normal' food. I consider your attitude on this thread to be rather poor. I won't be replying to any further comments you add to this thread since I refuse to be drawn further into your rant. :mad:

It's good to rant.

Not attacking you, just don't agree with your points and your use of supplements. Sorry to offend. Bunt Greg can be blunt.

As for diet: Lets take yesterday
Breakfast -
B12 supplement (difficiency) Vit D supplement (SAD sufferer) , homemade granola + soy yogurt, glass of grapefruit juice, BLACK coffee

Snack about 10:30 - coffee BLACK, usually a scone or such

Lunch - a muffin (WIN -normally brown bread, salami and rocket sambo)

Snack @4pm - handfull of nuts and some rice cakes I found in my drawer

Dinner - homemade beef madras with some rice - lean cut beef, cooked in water, drained before adding to mix which had no cooking oil in it - bell peppers and celery in there too. Portion of steamed white rice + glass of Coke Zero.

Through the day drank maybe 2L of fizzy water (interesting research showing this is a BAD idea, but damn its tasty) also drank 1-2 L of normal tap water - damn commies flurinating my water.

Hope that helps.

billy.fish

AstraMonti wrote: »

I think the reason lies in the fact that the diet of a pro is specifically built, monitored and tuned for his every day needs. We can't afford/have time to do that so I guess a supplement is as good as it gets.

I don't think time is an excuse here...just shop around the outside of the market. Supplements should be viewed as such, not substitutes.

AstraMonti

billy.fish wrote: »

I don't think time is an excuse here...just shop around the outside of the market. Supplements should be viewed as such, not substitutes.

I don't think I said anything different, it's supplement to a medium to good diet. If you are having an excellent diet (aka the pros) then you probably don't need it.

billy.fish

AstraMonti wrote: »

I don't think I said anything different, it's supplement to a medium to good diet. If you are having an excellent diet (aka the pros) then you probably don't need it.

Ahh sorry, misread you, yess 100% correct!

Saying that I know some people who eat like pro's yet assume that eeking in that extra 100% of supplemented vitamines etc would help.

Sadly a 1L jug only holds 1L of the 2L you try to pour in.

dermur

lalorm wrote: »

Glucosamine - Good for the joints. I notice my knees more when I dont take it.

I remember reading last year that the benefits of glucosamine had been poo-pooed by some Swiss guys...

"Professor Jüni and colleagues analysed the results of 10 published trials involving 3,803 patients with knee or hip osteoarthritis. They found no clinically relevant effect of chondroitin, glucosamine, or their combination on perceived joint pain or on joint space narrowing."

http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/two-popular-joint-supplements-dont-work-2373598.html

What about iron supplements?

I also remember reading somewhere that Acetaminophen (found in Tylenol) can improve endurance by blocking pain signals. Have I just unwittingly crossed the line into doping? It's a slippery slope...