Hse volunteer ambulance service

5500

http://m.rte.ie/news/2011/1212/hse.html

The name might be misleading on rte's part but is this simply more cfr responder programmes being rolled out across the country in remote areas or could it end up as more ie emts from vols responding to low category calls?

Surely there's a vast amount of cfr's within some community's or attached to vol's already too so the Hse doesn't necessarily have to train them as per the article?

Tripp

I hope this goes ahead as i would like to partake in it.

supermedic

The HSE have hundreds of CFR's already responding for them in Wicklow and Kildare, where about 35 local communities have Ambulance linked CFR schemes set up. Even if they have thousands more around the country it will be hard to reach the guideline set by HIQA. There is very little evidence to support an 8 minute target, In the event of an arrest, it is probably better to aim for 4 minutes, (That's never going to be achievable). Without a measure of clinical outcomes these figures mean nothing. If you look at the UK, you arrive in 7.5 minutes but patient dies, Success !!!, if you arrive in 9 minutes but patients lives, Failure ?? In Manhattan, the FDNY are funded to achieve a 3 minute response anywhere on the Island, the cost is absolutely phenomenal, but FDNY are the most recognizable ems providers on the planet. You get what you pay for.

scholar007

Tripp wrote: »

I hope this goes ahead as i would like to partake in it.

Here we go! - First we had the Garda reserve, now we will have the Ambulance Service Reserve.

Bang Bang

It's to do with Community First Responders and rolling out the programme to more communities.
These responders will respond to cardiac arrest calls in their own cars and nothing to do with volunteer ambulances being responded.
They will not be responding to any trauma call which is in line with the current guideline.

scholar007

Bang Bang wrote: »

It's to do with Community First Responders and rolling out the programme to more communities.
These responders will respond to cardiac arrest calls in their own cars and nothing to do with volunteer ambulances being responded.
They will not be responding to any trauma call which is in line with the current guideline.

Just wondering will they be issued with the sticky on blue bottle lights? If not will some adventurous souls decide to install flashing green lights which I have seen done....... What happens if said CFR is in an RTA enroute to an MI? How does the insurance work?

stretch00

scholar007 wrote: »

Bang Bang wrote: »

It's to do with Community First Responders and rolling out the programme to more communities.
These responders will respond to cardiac arrest calls in their own cars and nothing to do with volunteer ambulances being responded.
They will not be responding to any trauma call which is in line with the current guideline.

Just wondering will they be issued with the sticky on blue bottle lights? If not will some adventurous souls decide to install flashing green lights which I have seen done....... What happens if said CFR is in an RTA enroute to an MI? How does the insurance work?

Very robust policies to deal with all of that kind of stuff. For example there is a strict driving style and distance policy which covers that in great detail and even a letter for your insurance company.

CFR's have been around for a long time, they are from all walks of life, including quite a few members of various services and GPs. They've done a lot of good over the years with little if any negative issues, any of the truly strange ones have come from voluntary organisations, very few and far between though.

winsome

scholar007 wrote: »

Here we go! - First we had the Garda reserve, now we will have the Ambulance Service Reserve.

Agreed!
1. Eight minutes.. allowing for control to send the call through and 30 seconds or so to go mobile, and presuming you live in an urban area its pushing it. Rurally, nope.
2. The Garda Reserve are a useful adjunct to the Gardai and the community. They are not Gardai. CFRs are a useful adjunct to the community where they work/reside. They are not paramedics. There is no substitute for an equipped ambulance and two qualified experienced paramedics.
3. Basic CPR should be taught in secondary school as a life skill. Therefore each community has most individuals with the knowledge of how to keep the body perfused until the paramedics arrive, as in the case of a cardiac arrest.'Hundreds' more CFRs do not need to be trained up to bolster up the ambulance service. This is giving the public a false sense of security that emergency medical help is readily available 24/7 and has the same ski8ll set as the frontline services. Nope it isnt and it doesnt.
4. This is a way of encouraging more volunteers into frontline services to the public. Seems good, cost effective and noble on paper.
The reality is, and most crews know this, that the EMS attracts a wannabe hero element. The guys who carry the portable oxygen ,lmas, opas, and blue lights in the car boot, and listen to the scanner.. just in case.The guy who put collars on five occupants of a minor fender bender rta , thus requiring several ambos to transport the uninjured on boards.( yes, it happens):rolleyes:
And no matter how well intentioned, this is frankly dangerous. Dangerous as in.. where is the Garda vetting/aptitude/peer monitoring of these people?We have to have it.
If there is an enquiry as to the deceased.. who was in charge and at what point?
Yes, by all means expand the CPR programme to anyone and everyone,but do not expect the last remaining tax payers( paramedics included) on this island to accept that the most basic interventions known to the western world, by members of the public are adequate for our needs.We have an ageing Irish population, who have paid their dues,and they deserve a proper investment in their frontline ambulance service when they need it most.This is instilling a false sense of security in those people,and is trying to provide a life or death service on the cheap.
Off to take my blood pressure... :mad:

sgthighway

winsome wrote: »

3. Basic CPR should be taught in secondary school as a life skill.

+1

5500

Good bit about this in the herald and dailymail today, both papers appear to be slamming the idea along with one of the private providers jumping on board, but is it such a bad thing if it's only cardiac & resp arrest calls? Surely anything that could help improve pt outcome in these situations is a good thing, or is it likely to lead to a baloon of walter mittys?

Mycroft H

Its worth noting that many ambulance trusts in the UK have community responders calling out to resp/cardiac arrest calls.

Mycroft H

But It also got me thinking.

How much is going to be spent on the community first response scheme. Would the money not be better spent on more fast response units to meet the supposedly successful getting-to-casualty-in-8-minutes idea.

Bang Bang

Some areas of the media are either forgetting, or are too ignorant to know that the community responder programme has been up and running for a number of years now, and quite successfully in some areas too with recorded saves from cardiac arrests.
The HSE are at present, looking at rolling the programme out to other communities. The walter mitty's and the gung ho brigade won't get past the first step of the selection process. Those currently involved in the programme are all respected, well mannered members of their community who provide a life saving service freely to their locality. Remember too that many general practitioners are involved in the programme. The responder is provided with training, kit bag, oxygen, masks, and AED. They also wear a jacket to show who they are and carry ID.

It's a proven fact that early CPR and early defibrillation are key aspects of resuscitation from cardiac arrest and this is what the Community First Responder programme is about.

ratracer

I'm involved in a program such as this. Live at least 30 mins from nearest Amb Station. 5 wks ago, a person had a cardiac arrest, local trained people began CPR immeadiately and shocked the cas within 4 mins. The cas is alive and well today because of the intervention, without it cas would not be.
These programs, when managed/structured properly are literally a life-saver for some people. The scare-mongering in the 'Irish' daily snail was disgraceful. There should be more money put into the amb service, but geography alone mean some places are still outside ambo target times.

Please don't write off the CFR idea if you have no experience of one, from my point of view it's an aid to the HSE, not a hinderance.

Bang Bang

That copy of the Daily Mail was in the station when I got to work today, it was pinned up for all to get a good laugh at.
I can honestly say the article in the paper which is referred to here was the greatest load of rubbish I've read in a long time.

That 'news' paper is now torn into segments and hangs in Trap 3 of the gents toilet awaiting it's true calling.

C81

Hi,

Sounds good in theory, everyone should be taught it, but i cant help but think the only reason why they are rolling this out now is due to all the Ambulance cuts, recruiting cuts, closing hospitals, the state of the health service. Thanks to the Fat Cats! Time is valuble, life is valuble, people pay for medical cover.
People pay taxes for a service, not for a service to make excuses and to pass it back to the people...

Bang Bang

C81 wrote: »

Hi,

Sounds good in theory, everyone should be taught it, but i cant help but think the only reason why they are rolling this out now is due to all the Ambulance cuts, recruiting cuts, closing hospitals, the state of the health service. Thanks to the Fat Cats! Time is valuble, life is valuble, people pay for medical cover.
People pay taxes for a service, not for a service to make excuses and to pass it back to the people...

This is not only being rolled out now. As already stated the Community First Responder programme has been in existence for a number of years now, funded by the HSE with training provided by the Ambulance Service and Doctors General Practices. It is simply being extended to other regions and some in the media and other circles thought nothing better than to twist the whole story and fill it with untruths.

winsome

C81 wrote: »

Hi,

Sounds good in theory, everyone should be taught it, but i cant help but think the only reason why they are rolling this out now is due to all the Ambulance cuts, recruiting cuts, closing hospitals, the state of the health service. Thanks to the Fat Cats! Time is valuble, life is valuble, people pay for medical cover.
People pay taxes for a service, not for a service to make excuses and to pass it back to the people...

Exactly my point!
I am not against CFR ,and obviously to have trained responders with aeds available would be be of benefit to communities where there are gaps in ambulance cover.This is the case especially in rural Ireland where there have been volunteers involved in programmes for some time.
However as the poster mentioned above, for the an ambulance officer on behalf of the HSE to announce we need hundreds of new CFRs trained up-at the same time rural hospitals are closing,and journey times to 'centres of excellence' are getting further and further away.
Why need hundreds now? Why not ten years ago when we had the money to train volunteers and supply the equipment to the same communities?
The Garda reserve started, as a aid to the Gardai- and now, a few years on.. 41 stations are to close leaving a lot of rural areas with no presence and Gardai recruitment has stopped. Who would have ever thought things would be so bad..
This is exactly the same scenario. Train up a load of volunteers as an aid to the NAS, then what? A few years down the road only huge hospitals in large urban centres will accept cardiac calls. Look at the North East Region. Navan, A and E is closed to trauma. Monaghan.. barely functioning and losing beds . Cavan. ditto. Drogheda.. overwhelmed with patients having to be brought there from all over the region,and not coping at all (no trolleys never mind beds). Meanwhile a previously fine facility, Dundalk ED only now has a minor injury unit. which shuts at 5pm!!
So, by the HSE actively starting training programme for 100s of volunteers it gives people a false sense of security, but there is simply no substitute for TWO professionals -who can concur with treatment options at the time of attending a call as opposed to a lone volunteer responding to a call who has to make all the decisions -not medication obviously, but the use of an aed with no second opinion, which paramedics do as a matter of course and experience.
As per the gardai- this is a back door into providing an emergency service to our most vunerable public on the cheap. After all, its the aged who need us most.They have no voice. By all means train as many people as you like as CFRs but dont use this as an excuse to skimp on the actual emergency service which tax payers pay for, and rightly expect.

cocoshovel

Anybody know what the entry requirements, or how you could go about getting into this would be?

This is something I would be interested in. It would be better if they did provide the training though as i don't have any....so better for me ;-)

cocoshovel

cocoshovel wrote: »

Anybody know what the entry requirements, or how you could go about getting into this would be?

At this stage even for a voluntary position you still need to know someone who can hand you the job before the recruitment commences...

stevie06

Deleted User wrote: »

At this stage even for a voluntary position you still need to know someone who can hand you the job before the recruitment commences...

What???

where did you come up with that?

of course it will take somebody to take ownership to get a scheme up and running locally, but these schemes are open to anyone that fills the requirements for doing it, not everybody is able to give the commitment or be dependable in the situations that you maybe faced when responding.

That may give the appearance of having to be in the know to get involved. i believe this is down to the fact that the person setting it up will first get a core of people they know will perform as required and once the service is operating they will have the experience to train more people up.

i know from our local service, there was loads of interest day one, but once the service started, the number of people available was a problem because they couldn't commit the time. it ended up being the same 6 people all the time. alot of time was wasted training alot of people who in the end couldn't commit.

McWotever

Some people are obviously worried that this will cause cuts in ambulance cover. One thing is a certain, we'll never get more ambulances. But the CFRs aren't going to put the patient in the car and drive them to hospital, they'll still require an ambulance. The CFRs job will be to hold the patients hand and say "there, there, the ambulance will be here shortly"

If they make it worth my while I'll do it.

fenris

winsome wrote: »

but there is simply no substitute for TWO professionals -who can concur with treatment options at the time of attending a call as opposed to a lone volunteer responding to a call .

Rubbish, assuming the purpose is to help the people on the receiving end as opposed to grinding an axe about pay and conditions.

Two full time is better but one voulenteer that knows what to do and is there when needed is a useful substitute.

The alternative is nobody attending and people dying especially in rural areas.

Thepredator

Its not about responders being substitutes for paramedics. This is all about the chain of survival, especially early access, in an ideal world it would be great to have paras and ap's in every village in the country but its just not possible. There is a lot of scaremongering going on particularly via media. If these community responders are competent, vetted and dedicated they can vastly improve the chances of survival in medical and truma patients in rural areas and im sure this can only be welcomed by full time ambulance staff.

winsome

fenris wrote: »

Rubbish, assuming the purpose is to help the people on the receiving end as opposed to grinding an axe about pay and conditions.

Two full time is better but one voulenteer that knows what to do and is there when needed is a useful substitute.

The alternative is nobody attending and people dying especially in rural areas.

1.You assume the purpose is to help people - eh..yes, obviously :rolleyes:This help would be within the most basic scope of practice which is basic 30:2 cpr which each citizen over 16 should know as a matter of course. so, why the sudden need to recruit 100's now, as the rural hospitals shut their doors.Co incidence.. ?? I think not.
2.There has been NO mention of pay, conditions or axe grinding, in any post above, so don't know where you got that from.
3.The real alternative is that everyone knows basic CPR and that hospitals stay open to cater for their local citizens,and qualified paramedics remain available in rural areas.
4. Two paramedics are qualified professionals with drug and equipment training who are licensed as to their competency.A volunteer is not a useful substitute,a sustitute is somebody of the same calibre doing the same job. ie. a locum doctor, a garda moved temporarily from one station to another,a luas driver working from connolly instead of tallaght for the day..It is useful that everbody knows how to keep an airway open and how to do cpr.but it is no substitute.
( It's volunteer by the way)

fenris

Well full marks on your spelling - well done, give yourself a star!

My reading of you arguement is that you would prefer that there is no volunteer (does it still mean the same without italics?) activity or service but your own and that when there is enough outcry there will be no choice but to fund you properly.

A useful substitute is one that can get enough done to allow an option that is not a choice of funeral homes.

As has been pointed out several times first responded have been filling a big gap for a long time now particularly in rural areas.
equipment is usually purchased based on locally raised funds and local people. It is not ideal but it is where we are and your hostility towards that is a little baffling.

We are always hearing that "somebody should do something" but as soon as there is an attempt by people to help themselves we get into this whole "Its not as good as two paramedics" rant, we know that and will take whatever help is available until we have "two paramedics" on every street corner/

Inn my parents area (Waterford) there are two ambulances covering a relatively large geographic area, the local red cross provide cover along with a network of community first responders, there is nobody blaming ambulance crews because they are not available due to other taskings and while we are paying for cowan's cronies there is little likelyhood of any change in that situation.

Personally I would prefer a fully qualified paramedic in a properly kitted out ambulance to arrive if my elderly neighbour had a cardiac problem, but in their absence I would be very happy to see Jonjo the retired plumber and Community First responder barrelling down the lane on his honda 50 with the defib from the community centre over his shoulder.

Hooch

winsome wrote: »

( It's volunteer by the way)

fenris wrote: »

Well full marks on your spelling - well done, give yourself a star!

Cop on or get out please.........this is a discussion

Thanks

Hi! I mean where I live it's pretty fooked up I once got a job with the civil service acceptance letter and all which never materialised! But everyone who's mother or father worked in it got in no problem even though they stated a preference for those with Bsc in psychology.
That job was for people to work for summer for new graduates. I never got it. A school secretary job there was advertised, interviews were never held position was filled. Local fire service jobs? The one time all members of the panel got the job (all four members) after years of panels being formed and no one or maybe one person getting a job before the panel expired, all were members of the one family (cousins and brothers). Even the other firefighters already employed were saying it was a joke. Nepotism is alive and well in Ireland. Such a shame. I'm struggling to get any kind of job voluntary paid unskilled etc and I have a masters it's a pity for all new graduates. I know it sounds paranoid but I can give many many other examples. It's a disgrace.

groundhurling

Well, it's pretty simple. Say a loved one has a cardiac arrest, would you prefer to wait the 8 minutes for an ambulance to arrive or would you want a neighbour to start cpr and possibly deliver a shock in the time it takes the ambulance to come?

scholar007

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi! I mean where I live it's pretty fooked up I once got a job with the civil service acceptance letter and all which never materialised! But everyone who's mother or father worked in it got in no problem even though they stated a preference for those with Bsc in psychology.
That job was for people to work for summer for new graduates. I never got it. A school secretary job there was advertised, interviews were never held position was filled. Local fire service jobs? The one time all members of the panel got the job (all four members) after years of panels being formed and no one or maybe one person getting a job before the panel expired, all were members of the one family (cousins and brothers). Even the other firefighters already employed were saying it was a joke. Nepotism is alive and well in Ireland. Such a shame. I'm struggling to get any kind of job voluntary paid unskilled etc and I have a masters it's a pity for all new graduates. I know it sounds paranoid but I can give many many other examples. It's a disgrace.

I wonder does anyone still get a politician to write on their behalf saying that "I have known Johnny / Mary for many years and they are of good character"

I have actually seen such bullsh*t letters first hand - they are a great laugh!

First Aid Ireland

A volunteer ambulance service is a bit pie in the sky alright. But a network of community responders with proper access to AEDs would be a step in the right direction, in areas where ambulance crews can't get there quickly enough.

As far as I know some towns in Donegal have embraced the concept and it works quite well.

miju

this is been planned for a long while now. Looking at the practicalities of how the scheme will seem to work will be using smart phones and GPS tracking so the process operates something along the lines of:

1: 999 call recieved
2: Control dispatch ambulance crew
3: At same time dispatch text to all logged on / on call community responders within a specified GPS area close to call
4: Community responder can either accept or reject the call once notified
5: If accepted smartphone automatically plots in GPS route to patient

PHECC have released the RA app (on Android and iPhone) for testing which seems to suggest the above model and anyone can download it at the moment.

Info on the app is at http://www.phecit.ie/Documents/RAapp%20phecc%20website.pdf

First Aid Ireland

I think this would be a great idea if they're dispatching community responders while the ambos are enroute, rather than replacing them.

Anything that gets an AED to the scene as early as possible is to be encouraged.

I guess the worry eventually becomes "mission creep" where the community responders take over some of the roles of the ambulance service. i don't know if that would be a good or bad thing, but it would require a lot more thought.

fenris

I think that the main issues regarding the extent and sustainability of the service will be related to ongoing charges for consumables like O2 refills and Tetra terminal monthly fees, at the moment they are paid for from funds raised locally from the community and out of the pockets of the individual CR's but will quickly drain the resources of individuals and organisations like the local red cross as there is no means of claiming back the monies spent in support of the stripped down HSE service, no doubt some gob****e thinks it is a great way of getting expenditure off of his books.

winsome

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

I think this would be a great idea if they're dispatching community responders while the ambos are enroute, rather than replacing them.

Anything that gets an AED to the scene as early as possible is to be encouraged.

I guess the worry eventually becomes "mission creep" where the community responders take over some of the roles of the ambulance service. i don't know if that would be a good or bad thing, but it would require a lot more thought.

fenris wrote: »

I think that the main issues regarding the extent and sustainability of the service will be related to ongoing charges for consumables like O2 refills and Tetra terminal monthly fees, at the moment they are paid for from funds raised locally from the community and out of the pockets of the individual CR's but will quickly drain the resources of individuals and organisations like the local red cross as there is no means of claiming back the monies spent in support of the stripped down HSE service, no doubt some gob****e thinks it is a great way of getting expenditure off of his books.

Exactly, can't speak for all paramedics obviously. The more people who have better BLS the better.. but one must ask-why NOW the big push? As more EDs are closing and the ones that are open can't cope..can't be coincidence.:rolleyes:
If the HSE thinks it can get volunteers to do its job instead of investing in a better NAS -why wouldn't they? And what happens A few years down the line,with even further closures/cutbacks-is this setting a path for ES on the cheap? Our elderly and vunerable citizens particularly paying the price.Will the emergency services /voluntary orgs eventually be run like our national schools? Forced to fund raise/rattle tin cans /bag pack in Dunnes to afford the basics.:(

Bang Bang

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

I think this would be a great idea if they're dispatching community responders while the ambos are enroute, rather than replacing them.

Anything that gets an AED to the scene as early as possible is to be encouraged.

I guess the worry eventually becomes "mission creep" where the community responders take over some of the roles of the ambulance service. i don't know if that would be a good or bad thing, but it would require a lot more thought.

fenris wrote: »

I think that the main issues regarding the extent and sustainability of the service will be related to ongoing charges for consumables like O2 refills and Tetra terminal monthly fees, at the moment they are paid for from funds raised locally from the community and out of the pockets of the individual CR's but will quickly drain the resources of individuals and organisations like the local red cross as there is no means of claiming back the monies spent in support of the stripped down HSE service, no doubt some gob****e thinks it is a great way of getting expenditure off of his books.

The CFR programme has been running for a number of years with great success (as mentioned earlier in the thread!) So it was never a case that the CFR was replacing the ambulance, the ambulance is mobilised the same time that the text is generated.

As for consumables like oxygen masks and cylinders, these are paid for by the HSE and are restocked by the ambulance crew once on scene. There is no TETRA monthly fee because TETRA is not used for the CFR programme.
Draining the resources of local organisations like the Red Cross as stated by 'fenris' is not an issue because the local organisations are not part of the Community First Responder programme.

Read the facts, the Community First Responder programme has been in operation for a number of years, this is not a new venture, it is just being rolled out to other communities. Don't mind what you read in the tabloids.

CFR's are individuals who are trained and equipped by the HSE NAS. They respond to Cardiac calls in their community whilst an ambulance is responding to the scene also. Any equipment they use is re-stocked by the HSE, usually by the ambulance crew with the exception of defib pads.
The CFR programme is not about responding any voluntary organisation. Yes individual members may be part of their local CFR programme but they are not representing their organisation when responding to the call from the HSE.

Again, please read and understand the facts pertaining to the Community First Responder programme. I have worked alongside CFR's may times so I know how the system works and it's nothing like what the tabloids have stated, all the tabloids have achieved is scare mongering and non truths leading to confusion amongst some.

First Aid Ireland

I don't think it's necessarily a case of no knowing the facts. The facts are that CFRs alongside ambos should provide a great service, if it's properly rolled out.

I guess the point people were making is that sometimes these things drift a little if they work well. I don't know if it's starting to happen in a pre-hospital setting, but in-hospital, acute services are stretched so much that work is being syphoned off in all kinds of ways. Who knows if that's going to happen in this case. But in the current climate anything can happen.

But that's not ignorance of factual inaccuracy or tabloid scaremongering. It's just a legitimate question. I think most people believe that getting early BLS/AED to patients can only be a good thing.

fenris

Bang Bang wrote: »

As for consumables like oxygen masks and cylinders, these are paid for by the HSE and are restocked by the ambulance crew once on scene. There is no TETRA monthly fee because TETRA is not used for the CFR programme.
Draining the resources of local organisations like the Red Cross as stated by 'fenris' is not an issue because the local organisations are not part of the Community First Responder programme.

So the Tetra bill for the almost useless outdated pager terminals is pure imagination as is the refill and rental charges from BOC? - presumably they can be paid using imaginary money.

Ambulance control call out the volunteer ambulances via the Tetra pager and a phone call (no points for guessing which one actually works), gasses etc. used are not replenished by the HSE.

You will find that in many locations that the CFR's and local Red Cross / Order of Malta are the same people. The tiltle of the thread is volunteer ambulance service and it is the combination of the above that are providing the service.

From what I have seen there is no replenishment by the HSE, it is funded from monies raised through table quizes and raffles which is getting harder to raise as people have less to give.

miju

Think thats a poor argument. It costs what €60 a year for the rental of a CD cylinder and €7 a refill plus the cost of pads if used. As for the pager system as I posted above it seems thats being replaced by PHECCs smartphone system (which reading through their councils minutes cost about €15,000 once off fee)

Think the cost of a potential save for a patient is negligible at about €55 a call tbh. And besides most guys I know in CFR programmes get cylinders swapped out with the ambo crew no probs at all.

fenris

30 a month per pager.

not sure about the exact rental cost of the bottles and refill but it is a lot more than your stated amount, is that figure for the old steel bottles or the newer light weight ones?

Bang Bang

fenris wrote: »

So the Tetra bill for the almost useless outdated pager terminals is pure imagination as is the refill and rental charges from BOC? - presumably they can be paid using imaginary money.

Ambulance control call out the volunteer ambulances via the Tetra pager and a phone call (no points for guessing which one actually works), gasses etc. used are not replenished by the HSE.

You will find that in many locations that the CFR's and local Red Cross / Order of Malta are the same people. The tiltle of the thread is volunteer ambulance service and it is the combination of the above that are providing the service.

From what I have seen there is no replenishment by the HSE, it is funded from monies raised through table quizes and raffles which is getting harder to raise as people have less to give.

You are correct in the title of this thread 'fenris', but the title is referenced to the incorrect media reports on how the CFR programme operates and the plans to extend this programme to other communities countrywide.
You are totally incorrect in your information with regard to CFR being responded through the use of TETRA pagers. Yes CFR may also be members of their local voluntary ambulance but the CFR is not representing their voluntary organisation when responding to the HSE cardiac call. They are responded by text to their mobile and they reply by text to notify Ambulance Control that they are mobile to the scene, by car. The CFR programme is not and will not be a combination of any voluntary ambulance organisation. As stated a number of times already, Community First Responders in the HSE NAS programme will be trained and equipped by the National Ambulance Service, they re-stock at the cost of the HSE. Ambulance crews often replenish the CFR's CD O2 cylinders and masks once on scene and the patient hand over is complete. Additional equipment, defib pads are replenished by HSE funds.

The Community First Responder programme has been running very successfully in areas of the East for a number of years now. The rolling out of this programme will tie in with the launch of the new national control and command centre in 2012 which will be situated in Dublin and the responding of CFR's will be done as I've described a number of times in this thread.

If you are referring to any local arrangements that may have been in place in the past then I would advise that you familiarise yourself with the plans of the HSE National Ambulance Service Community First Responder programme which will roll out to other communities in the near future.

drill

Fenris just to expand a little on what bang bang has said.


CFRs do not and never will use Tetra. they use a NAS phone which is integrated with NAS control room cad system. The system pre alerts(texts) the CFR with details etc.

The CFR then txts back "mobile" and "at scene" which automatically updates the CAD. This system has been in place and working for a number of years in Kildare and Wicklow with no problems And a some "saves"

There are other CFR schemes running around the country more or less
on the same type of dispatch system


Drill

fenris

The scheme that I have experience of is outside the commuter belt and there are definitely Tetra pagers involved (with frequent fallbacks to mobile due to Tetra terminal reliability issues - not coverage) and replenishment at the local organisations expense directly from BOC gasses.

The scheme is quite busy relatively speaking with 1-5 callouts per week most commonly older people in a rural area with chest pains or falls serviced by a very small number of volunteers.

The people involved are both CFRs and local Red Cross. Usually responding as a CFR if that is how the call comes in. If there is no HSE ambulance available then the local Red Cross/ OOM ambulance can be called with no prizes for guessing that the driver of the volunteer ambulance may already be at the scene with their CFR hat on and getting the call via their Tetra pager. Volunteer gasses are not covered by HSE.

I can give more detail in PM, but it seems that the resourcing of the scheme in the greater dublin area is of an order of magnitude greater than the shoestring and goodwill arrangements to be found elsewhere.

Hopefully that level of resourcing will go beyond the dormitory counties. What seems to be happening at the moment is more responsibility being offloaded without the resourcing to match, probably because that resourcing is what you need to run a full times service.

miju

fenris wrote: »

30 a month per pager.

not sure about the exact rental cost of the bottles and refill but it is a lot more than your stated amount, is that figure for the old steel bottles or the newer light weight ones?

thats for the aluminium ones CD size and thats the exact cost per invoice I get each month

touge_drift

if they are just at the comunity first responder standard, they wont need to worry about oxygen as their cpg's wont allow its use. unless they are trained to cfr-a level. (or not phecc trained atall)

ZoneAlarm

scholar007 wrote: »

Here we go! - First we had the Garda reserve, now we will have the Ambulance Service Reserve.

Dont see a problem with that myself, it could be a great thing if people keep an open mind, its like anything it takes time evolve and mature, is change not a good thing, folks we have to move with the times not live in the past or what could have been, get over it and move on.

ZoneAlarm

Bang Bang wrote: »

Some areas of the media are either forgetting, or are too ignorant to know that the community responder programme has been up and running for a number of years now, and quite successfully in some areas too with recorded saves from cardiac arrests.
The HSE are at present, looking at rolling the programme out to other communities. The walter mitty's and the gung ho brigade won't get past the first step of the selection process. Those currently involved in the programme are all respected, well mannered members of their community who provide a life saving service freely to their locality. Remember too that many general practitioners are involved in the programme. The responder is provided with training, kit bag, oxygen, masks, and AED. They also wear a jacket to show who they are and carry ID.

It's a proven fact that early CPR and early defibrillation are key aspects of resuscitation from cardiac arrest and this is what the Community First Responder programme is about.

Well said m8 its just people are afraid of change that is all, its about saving lives here, if your mother or a family member was in a serious way and the ambulance was far away, and one of these people was around the corner and could possible either save the persons live, or treat the patient until the ambulance arrived is that not a good thing.

Personally if it saves lives i would be all in favor, should have been thought about years ago, same goes for the Reserve Garda.

ZoneAlarm

winsome wrote: »

The Garda reserve started, as a aid to the Gardai- and now, a few years on.. 41 stations are to close leaving a lot of rural areas with no presence and Gardai recruitment has stopped. Who would have ever thought things would be so bad..
This is exactly the same scenario. Train up a load of volunteers as an aid to the NAS, then what? A few years down the road only huge hospitals in large urban centres will accept cardiac calls. Look at the North East Region. Navan, A and E is closed to trauma. Monaghan.. barely functioning and losing beds . Cavan. ditto. Drogheda.. overwhelmed with patients having to be brought there from all over the region,and not coping at all (no trolleys never mind beds). Meanwhile a previously fine facility, Dundalk ED only now has a minor injury unit. which shuts at 5pm!!
So, by the HSE actively starting training programme for 100s of volunteers it gives people a false sense of security, but there is simply no substitute for TWO professionals -who can concur with treatment options at the time of attending a call as opposed to a lone volunteer responding to a call who has to make all the decisions -not medication obviously, but the use of an aed with no second opinion, which paramedics do as a matter of course and experience.
As per the gardai- this is a back door into providing an emergency service to our most vunerable public on the cheap. After all, its the aged who need us most.They have no voice. By all means train as many people as you like as CFRs but dont use this as an excuse to skimp on the actual emergency service which tax payers pay for, and rightly expect.

What do you exactly expect from a country that is debt ridden and bankrupt, things have to change, if its going to help to get the country back up and running, im sure the public are all for it.

ZoneAlarm

McWotever wrote: »

The CFRs job will be to hold the patients hand and say "there, there, the ambulance will be here shortly"

If they make it worth my while I'll do it.

So patronising, i wonder if it was someone in your family the person was helping, would you have a different opinion.

ZoneAlarm

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

A volunteer ambulance service is a bit pie in the sky alright. But a network of community responders with proper access to AEDs would be a step in the right direction, in areas where ambulance crews can't get there quickly enough.

As far as I know some towns in Donegal have embraced the concept and it works quite well.

Well said and 100% with you on that, something is better than nothing, sooner rather than later, as later might be to late for the person involved.