Fisheries Officers

beer enigma

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, but there's been a lot of heated discussion recently over the usage of the word 'bailiff' when addessing fisheries officers & also suggestions that the use of it should be banned and added to forum rules.

I'm sadly an ex mod of this forum and have asked Bitemybanger for permission to post again on this, as i felt the discussion was damaging the forum - we have enough to worry about in fishing circles without fighting amongst ourselves - thankfully he's readily agreed.

First and foremost, fisheries officers do invaluable, difficult work and I wish we had more of them - yes as my icon shows I'm English but have been resident for 15 years in Ireland - (married to a cork woman for 12 of those god help me). More importantly, I've grown up with the term bailiff as a respected enforcement officer - I personally have always seen it as a term of respect in fishing cirlces, but also do very much appreciate the historical connotations here and that some see it as a term of abuse. It is however widely used in angling press and many newbies reading papers such as angling times may not see a negative side.

For that reason, a complete ban on it cannot in my opinion be put, in place - if it's in the forum rules then a mod has to bide by the rules and new members could find themselves banned before they've posted a second comment.

I read a good suggestion that a 'polite' comment be made whenever the term was used innocently - its easy to tell when it's used in a derogatory fashion & when in innocence. This to me is the way forward here.

If I can suggest that rather than jumping on people from a height when the term is used, we evaluate HOW it's used. If derogatory, report the post and let the poster get banned, if innocent, a decent reply stating that it's preferable not to use the term as it offends.

Please let's end this and get back to the fishing...............

SeaFields

Very well put Andip.

And you're still a mod! Your profile says so. You're just too good for them to let you go.

beer enigma

SeaFields wrote: »

Very well put Andip.

And you're still a mod! Your profile says so. You're just too good for them to let you go.

Cheers but unfortunately an admin issue - seafields you've been a great asset to the forum & your comments are as ever very valued

TimMac

Ya i suppose its a bit like changing from miles to kilometres it will take a bit of getting used.

Well said Andip only two months and we are into a new season!!!

"married to a cork woman for 12 of those god help me" - GOD HELP US ALL

slowburner

Very much appreciated Andi. I didn't see this post until just now.

There are no winners or losers in this case - we all win.
And this forum will grow now - I know for a fact, that some very experienced people were put off contributing to this forum for reasons to do with this issue.

Above all, I wish Andi's son the best of health and luck in his future operation.

It would be kinda good if you folk put up posts to
put Andi under pressure to stay on as mod
He's a good bloke and if he steps down it would be a huge loss to the forum.

shanemurphyboy

I for one have got some helpfull advise off Andip and would like to see him stick to his position as Mod.

Think_then_talk

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925/en/act/pub/0032/sec0033.html

What will we be calling binmen next (pc gone to your head)

Bizzum

Think_then_talk wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925/en/act/pub/0032/sec0033.html

What will we be calling binmen next (pc gone to your head)

How would you interpret section 48 of the 1939 Fisheries Act?

purehoor

its only a word. dont see what the fuss about it. my grandfather was known as baliff. it was his nicname. he never found it an insult. some people should dismount from their high horses me thinks. a load of caffufle over a word. its a bit sad that people find it an insult. theres far worse some baliffs do be called. iv always called them baliffs. i never mean it as a derogative term towards the person. iv been calling officers baliffs for a long time now and will continue to do so. but lads try remember the old sticks and stones rhyme.....

dardevle

...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1939/en/act/pub/0017/print.html#sec48

this provided for the substitution of the term "bailiff" with the term "waterkeeper"...... that was 72 years ago and many many people have still not got the hang of this change.

now we are being ordered to forgo both of these terms, as "fishery officer" is now the preferred title among ex-waterkeepers, although i can't seem to find a link to the legislation for this name change .

perhaps clarification is needed here as to which of the following terms are now acceptable:

bailiff?
waterbailiff?
waterkeepers?
fisheries officer?

.......

Think_then_talk

(How would you interpret section 48 of the 1939 Fisheries Act? )
The Irish Erasing all things English ... But the same word pops up again below
(Quote:Mr. O.J. Flanagan): Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1962— Second Stage.....The post of water bailiff or waterkeeper should be regarded as a high one in the service because of the special duties which he must perform.)
(Quote:from
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2004/10/20/unrevised1.pdf
(Quote:20 October 2004.I refer to water bailiffs. I have a warrant as a water bailiff on the River Liffey. That is quite right and many other members of))

Here are some great Water Bailiff's and are proud of the work they do
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/06/08/4004834-poaching-rife-on-cavan-and-monaghan-lakes/

Why ban a word when one can Ban the abuser of the word.

beer enigma

Ok as I said, let's not get too heavy into this again - fisheries officers to a great job and I'd rather spend my energy trying to get more of them than arguing about titles.

If the current term is fisheries officer then I'm ok with that

Just out of interest, anyone got an idea of the amount of fisheries officers in Ireland & the coverage in relation to the area they cover ??

beer enigma

shanemurphyboy wrote: »

I for one have got some helpfull advise off Andip and would like to see him stick to his position as Mod.

Thanks much appreciated but trust me - you are in very good hands with Bitemybanger

slowburner

dardevle wrote: »

...
perhaps clarification is needed here as to which of the following terms are now acceptable:

bailiff?
waterbailiff?
waterkeepers?
fisheries officer?

.......

Fisheries officer is the right term.

Think_then_talk wrote: »

(How would you interpret section 48 of the 1939 Fisheries Act? )
The Irish Erasing all things English ... But the same word pops up again below
(Quote:Mr. O.J. Flanagan): Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1962— Second Stage.....The post of water bailiff or waterkeeper should be regarded as a high one in the service because of the special duties which he must perform.)
(Quote:from
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2004/10/20/unrevised1.pdf
(Quote:20 October 2004.I refer to water bailiffs. I have a warrant as a water bailiff on the River Liffey. That is quite right and many other members of))

Here are some great Water Bailiff's and are proud of the work they do
http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2011/06/08/4004834-poaching-rife-on-cavan-and-monaghan-lakes/

Why ban a word when one can Ban the abuser of the word.

As Andip said, let's not get heavy about this.

There might be some confusion here -
The group (Lake Watch) calling themselves bailiffs in Monaghan are a voluntary organisation.
They are effectively private water keepers with limited powers of law enforcement.
The same applies to O.J.Flanagan.

If these folks want to call themselves bailiffs, good luck to them.

Fisheries officers, on the other hand, are empowered to enforce the Fisheries Acts on a regional and national basis, have far wider powers in relation to enforcement of the Fisheries acts, are employed by the state and are servants of the state rather than a single fishery.
They are not employed by, or answerable to clubs or private interests.

dardevle

slowburner wrote: »

Fisheries officer is the right term.



As Andip said, let's not get heavy about this.

while not trying to bring down the lighthearted and jovial nature of your thread at this point :rolleyes:

.....according to this

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1939/en/act/pub/0017/print.html#sec48

the link you provided would suggest that "waterkeeper" is the term to be substituted for bailiff.

my question is simply this:

since the legislation was changed 72 years ago.....has it been changed since then, to substitute "waterkeeper" for the term "fisheries officer"?

while it may seem pedantic, if i am required to change the terminology i use in order to remain in the forum, then i should use the correct term as defined by the legislation....yes?



....

Bizzum

dardevle wrote: »

my question is simply this:

since the legislation was changed 72 years ago.....has it been changed since then, to substitute "waterkeeper" for the term "fisheries officer"?

Interestion question.

It's a given that a FO is an Authorised Officer, as per 301 1959 Act.
An Authorised Officer I have seen in several pieces of legislation defined

as: a An Officer of the minister..........etc
b An Officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland...........etc
c etc

Would I be making a huge leap to term an Officer of IFI a Fisheries Officer?

dardevle

Bizzum wrote: »

Interestion question.

It's a given that a FO is an Authorised Officer, as per 301 1959 Act.
An Authorised Officer I have seen in several pieces of legislation defined

as: a An Officer of the minister..........etc
b An Officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland...........etc
c etc

Would I be making a huge leap to term an Officer of IFI a Fisheries Officer?

no more than you would be when calling an officer a bailiff.


A bailiff (from Late Latin baiulivus, adjectival form of baiulus) is a governor or custodian (cf. bail); a legal officer to whom some degree of authority, care or jurisdiction is committed

.......

rpmcmurphy

Bizzum wrote: »

Interestion question.

It's a given that a FO is an Authorised Officer, as per 301 1959 Act.
An Authorised Officer I have seen in several pieces of legislation defined

as: a An Officer of the minister..........etc
b An Officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland...........etc
c etc

Would I be making a huge leap to term an Officer of IFI a Fisheries Officer?

I think the above is the defining piece of legislation to use. Fisheries officer it is and has been for over 50 years. A quick google of the term bailiff probably taken from an english or european if indeed an american context isnt applicable in Ireland or to Irish Fishery officers. If you want to know the correct term for an employee of any organisation then all you have to ask is what does the organisation refer to said employees as? Fishery officer. Simple really.

Bizzum

dardevle wrote: »

no more than you would be when calling an officer a bailiff.


A bailiff (from Late Latin baiulivus, adjectival form of baiulus) is a governor or custodian (cf. bail); a legal officer to whom some degree of authority, care or jurisdiction is committed

.......

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a Bailiff as:

1, A sheriffs officer etc
2, North American.........Non applicable
3, British sovereigns rep in a district etc

None of the above apply to Fishery Officers.

In legislation a FO is an Authorised Officer. An Authorised Officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland. A Fisheries Officer.
In the Dept of Agriculture, an Authorised Officer of the Dept of Ag is called an Agricultural Officer.
I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll ring one of the IFI offices, or indeed them all if you like and, and ask them.
Whatever term they advise, I'll agree here and now to use in future;)

I've said my bit now. This horse has well and truly been flogged.
Good luck!

slowburner

There has been enough said about this and an agreement has been reached.

If you have a problem with this agreement, then why not contribute to the relevant thread in the help desk, rather than dragging up the issue in this forum yet again.