Archbishop urges Catholics to leave the faith

Keylem

The Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has urged the country's lapsed Catholics to have the maturity to leave the church.

Over the past two decades, rising numbers of 'a la carte' Catholics simply turn up at the altar for the sacraments like baptism, communion and marriage.

But in a new documentary on the future of the church, priests reveal they will expect a firmer commitment from their flock in the future.

It shows how church pews swell to almost full capacity for celebratory sacraments, while Sunday services have dwindling numbers.

Archbishop Martin urged non-believers to walk away from the church.

He said: "It requires maturity on those people who want their children to become members of the church community and maturity on those people who say 'I don't believe in God and I really shouldn't be hanging on to the vestiges of faith when I don't really believe in it'."

Fr Michael Drumm, from the Catholic Schools Partnership, said the church would be getting firmer with parents looking to have their children baptised as a Catholic.

Archbishop Martin also said the church was anxious to start parting ways from some of its Catholic schools.

"It can't be done overnight. There is still a very strong demand for Catholic education."

Irish Independant

The Quadratic Equation

Assuming this Indo article is 100% accurate, and they very rarely are, as much as I personally dispair about pseudo Catholics and liberal Catholics, I don't believe a church full of only fanatical followers is a good thing either. The Church should continue to strive to be a broad but united Church. Difficult, but not impossible.
I think the real problem is not cultural / a la carte Catholics themselves, but the complete and utter failure of the Irish Bishops to properly and thoroughly teach and promote the beliefs of the Catholic faith for the last 30 + years. Most Catholics I know under 40 seem to have nothing more than a very foggy and vague idea of Catholic beliefs at best.

vicwatson

Above link broken - here it is

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/archbishop-urges-lapsed-catholics-to-leave-the-faith-2959884.html

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Assuming this Indo article is 100% accurate, and they very rarely are, as much as I personally dispair about pseudo Catholics and liberal Catholics, I don't believe a church full of only fanatical followers is a good thing either. The Church should continue to strive to be a broad but united Church. Difficult, but not impossible.
I think the real problem is not cultural / a la carte Catholics themselves, but the complete and utter failure of the Irish Bishops to properly and thoroughly teach and promote the beliefs of the Catholic faith for the last 30 years.

What exactly is a "liberal catholic"? Or do you just mean casual?

The Quadratic Equation

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

What exactly is a "liberal catholic"? Or do you just mean casual?

It's a broad term for anyone who likes to pick and choose which Catholic beliefs they feel like, i.e. an a la carte Catholic.

Manach

I would disagree. Even an annual visit to a church might be the spark that fires one's spirit. Catholicism is a broad tradition with a long cultural and historical trail. To restrict its membership would be counter-productive - based on say the mainstream Islamic faith, which recognises the generational aspects of the religion and allows a varying degree of commitment grounded on a few core principles.

Onesimus

Absolutely horrible. What he is doing is throwing stones and blaming the people for the down turn of the Church in Ireland, rather than addressing that the biggest scandal lies within the Church itself and Bishops who have failed to give us the faith in it's fullness. The reason why we have so many a la carte catholics is because we have so many a la carte Bishops.

Cato Maior

There was something on this on 'Would you believe' this evening on RTÉ One.

I think that what the AB might have been referring to is where parents have their children baptised but that they then do not darken the door of a church until First Communion and after that not until Confirmation.

My local parish just this year started a policy where parents have to attend monthly meetings before their child's First Communion and where the child has to attend at least ten masses in the months leading into the sacrament. This caused quite a bit of upset for parents who do not attend mass at all or only very rarely.

Cato Maior

Onesimus wrote: »

Absolutely horrible. What he is doing is throwing stones and blaming the people for the down turn of the Church in Ireland, rather than addressing that the biggest scandal lies within the Church itself and Bishops who have failed to give us the faith in it's fullness. The reason why we have so many a la carte catholics is because we have so many a la carte Bishops.

Yes, the standard of religious education in our local school is surprisingly weak. Our son is in first class but has not learnt even one of the major prayers yet. He has not the first clue as to what the 'Our Father' is. The 'Alive-O' series seems quite new-age to me.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It's a broad term for anyone who likes to pick and choose which Catholic beliefs they feel like, i.e. an a la carte Catholic.

Ah, ok. I thought you meant liberal in a more political standing (was wonderign why someone can'e be liberal and a catholic).

Personally, I agree with the actions of the parish mentinoed by Cato above, but at the same time, nothing will push someone away from any church that an "our way or the highway" apprpach.

DeVore

We cant: http://countmeout.ie/

DeV.

Cato Maior

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Personally, I agree with the actions of the parish mentinoed by Cato above, but at the same time, nothing will push someone away from any church that an "our way or the highway" apprpach.

Indeed, from the church's own point of view one can see that it makes sense, but the reaction of many is instructive as to their own attitude to the church and to the Catholic faith.

lmaopml

Cato Maior wrote: »

There was something on this on 'Would you believe' this evening on RTÉ One.

I think that what the AB might have been referring to is where parents have their children baptised but that they then do not darken the door of a church until First Communion and after that not until Confirmation.

My local parish just this year started a policy where parents have to attend monthly meetings before their child's First Communion and where the child has to attend at least ten masses in the months leading into the sacrament. This caused quite a bit of upset for parents who do not attend mass at all or only very rarely.

I've seen this happen too. I've also 'heard' the same people express that they are Catholic - but very lazy ones lol...and who am I to say they aren't really?

I think the Archbishops comments are not out of place ( although I'm only going by the article, missed the program ) he has a point insofar as practicing what you preach. Knowing who you are etc. and also getting up off our collective bums at times if we think it's important.

I don't think it's a good idea, at all, in any way shape or form to promote an elite version of Catholics that are always perfect all the time - but neither do I think that's what the Archbishop wants either....It must be a very difficult position he finds himself in.

Onesimus

What the above article should read like is this: Archbishop Diarmuid Martin urges all Bishops who no longer believe in the faith and have laxed in it to have the maturity to stand down so we can re-instate better clergy to feed the flock.

Instead it reads more like he urges those who are supposed to be fed the faith by the Clergy ( but have not been at all for the last 30+yrs ) to leave the Church.

You dont stand up on the pulpit every Sunday and urge the man who cant stop masturbating or having sex outside of marriage to just give up and leave the Church, you challenge him rather to live his faith and to remind him of it every Sunday. Which is something that is NOT done by the clergy in Ireland anymore. We never hear about sermons on Heaven or Hell or Purgatory or the Ten Commandments. All we get are stupid pub jokes and a couple of winks and ''Ha ha's'' and ''it's all ok''.

Doc Farrell

Very interesting thread and I'm confused that I agree with all the above posts even though they seem contradictory.
Personally I'm getting to the stage where the only act worthy of instant excommunication is the refusal of teenagers to turn off their mobiles! Drove me nuts today!
The end of the article mentions a documentary tomorrow night, is this the 2nd part of the very interesting one from last week?

Cato Maior

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Very interesting thread and I'm confused that I agree with all the above posts even though they seem contradictory.
Personally I'm getting to the stage where the only act worthy of instant excommunication is the refusal of teenagers to turn off their mobiles! Drove me nuts today!
The end of the article mentions a documentary tomorrow night, is this the 2nd part of the very interesting one from last week?

It refers to the 'Would you believe' programme that was on tonight (Sunday). I'm sure that you could get it on the RTÉ website.

Doc Farrell

DeVore wrote: »

We cant: http://countmeout.ie/

DeV.

Tom, I'm disappointed in this, this is basically trolling, as the owner you should know better. At least construct a coherent sentence old boy.

DeVore

Whats not clear?

He says we should leave, but clearly there are obstacles put in place by the organisation itself!

Not trolling, just brief is all.

DeV.

lmaopml

Onesimus wrote: »

What the above article should read like is this: Archbishop Diarmuid Martin urges all Bishops who no longer believe in the faith and have laxed in it to have the maturity to stand down so we can re-instate better clergy to feed the flock.

Instead it reads more like he urges those who are supposed to be fed the faith by the Clergy ( but have not been at all for the last 30+yrs ) to leave the Church.

You dont stand up on the pulpit every Sunday and urge the man who cant stop masturbating or having sex outside of marriage to just give up and leave the Church, you challenge him rather to live his faith and to remind him of it every Sunday. Which is something that is NOT done by the clergy in Ireland anymore. We never hear about sermons on Heaven or Hell or Purgatory or the Ten Commandments. All we get are stupid pub jokes and a couple of winks and ''Ha ha's'' and ''it's all ok''.

Oneismus, wouldn't you think it's a failure on behalf of parents primarily? A priest can become a priest, but he cannot make somebody perfect either.

Obviously some of them must have been doing something right too, otherwise it wouldn't be newsworthy? There are good clergy out there - I feel desperately sad for some of them that people generalise so.

Onesimus

lmaopml wrote: »

Oneismus, wouldn't you think it's a failure on behalf of parents primarily? A priest can become a priest, but he cannot make somebody perfect either.

Obviously some of them must have been doing something right too, otherwise it wouldn't be newsworthy? There are good clergy out there - I feel desperately sad for some of them that people generalise so.

It works both ways. But even St.Paul in his letters to those just converted he complained that they were converted but behaving badly as if they had never converted at all. But he didnt tell them to LEAVE the Church.

But there is always a root to the problem and for me the root lies within the clergy itself and if the clergy become corrupt then it spreads like a virus to the rest of us. Not all clergy are like this but it looks like the chaff out weighs the wheat in the clergy these days.

DeVore

If I was trolling I would say something like "How shall we f*ck off oh lord (archbishop)"
(j/king)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMJYQ9LKGQ

DeV.

lmaopml

Onesimus wrote: »

It works both ways. But even St.Paul in his letters to those just converted he complained that they were converted but behaving badly as if they had never converted at all. But he didnt tell them to LEAVE the Church.

But there is always a root the problem and for my the root lies within the clergy itself and if the clergy become corrupt then it spreads like a virus to the rest of us. Not all clergy are like this but it looks like the chaff out weighs the wheat in the clergy these days.

Ok, but I would wonder at a Church you think the gates of hades will not prevail? No?

If the Archbishop made comments ( and I'm sorry, perhaps I'm speaking out of place because I only read the article, I'll watch the program on the player when it is put up ) then he is asking people to search themselves and nothing more I would imagine? Certainly not ordering people out of the Church. A little challenge and everybody is in a flutter...

All people are welcome in the Catholic Church, but he is stressing the importance of taking on the responsibility for your own soul - the Church points the way, it doesn't necessarily claim to 'save' you - only Christ does that perfect judgement..The Archbishop is imo, asking people to get more active as much as they can...no harm.

Doc Farrell

Perhaps I'm mistaken but in Ireland if one wants to change one's religion or have none at all, all that is required is a tip of one's hat. Admittedly it was different up until the early nineties when the main business in Ireland seemed to be passing judgement on everyone else's personal lives but if I be a hankering to become a hare Krishna tomorrow I don't think I need permission from my local parish priest? Am I genuinely wrong?
The new papal nuncio looks fairly fit, is he going to hunt me down for non-attendance at Mass?

lmaopml

DeVore wrote: »

If I was trolling I would say something like "How shall we f*ck off oh lord (archbishop)"
(j/king)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMJYQ9LKGQ

DeV.

Wow.

DeVore

Doc Farrell wrote: »

Perhaps I'm mistaken but in Ireland if one wants to change one's religion or have none at all, all that is required is a tip of one's hat. Admittedly it was different up until the early nineties when the main business in Ireland seemed to be passing judgement on everyone else's personal lives but if I be a hankering to become a hare Krishna tomorrow I don't think I need permission from my local parish priest? Am I genuinely wrong?
The new papal nuncio looks fairly fit, is he going to hunt me down for non-attendance at Mass?

You are wrong. You are officially counted as a catholic until you have your name removed and "leave". That process was being assisted by the people behind "www.countmeout.ie" but not there has been some "changes" to canon law and its not clear how it can be done now.

DeV.

Onesimus

Ok, but I would wonder at a Church you think the gates of hades will not prevail? No?

And I wonder at a clergy who knows right well that the gates will not prevail but this does not mean that many souls will be lost as a result of their behaviour.

If the Archbishop made comments ( and I'm sorry, perhaps I'm speaking out of place because I only read the article, I'll watch the program on the player when it is put up ) then he is asking people to search themselves and nothing more I would imagine? Certainly not ordering people out of the Church. A little challenge and everybody is in a flutter...

All people are welcome in the Catholic Church, but he is stressing the importance of taking on the responsibility for your own soul - the Church points the way, it doesn't necessarily claim to 'save' you - only Christ does that perfect judgement..The Archbishop is imo, asking people to get more active as much as they can...no harm.

He could have done it a more appropriate way than basically telling them just to leave if they are to weak in soul to attend every Sunday. Most lapsed Catholics want Christ I was one myself but had I met this response I might never have returned at all. What made me return was priests who just didnt cut corners when it came to the truth of the faith. Not priests who couldnt be bothered preaching the truth from the pulpit and came up with an alternative idea to just tell those who are lapsed and disinterested to just have the maturity to leave the Church.

DeVore

Leave HOW?!

How exactly are we to follow his instructions and exit??

DeV.

Onesimus

DeVore wrote: »

Leave HOW?!

How exactly are we to follow his instructions and exit??

DeV.

I think what he means by ''Leave'' is to just not bother going to Church at all. Even when defection was in place before they brought in a new canon, had they left they would still be baptised as this sacrament can never be done away with, it's in the canons also.

Plus if there are baptised Atheists who want to leave the Church all they gotta do is leave, they cant be debaptised and one would wonder why that should bother them seeing as they dont believe their baptism to be valid anyways.

lmaopml

Onesimus wrote: »

And I wonder at a clergy who knows right well that the gates will not prevail but this does not mean that many souls will be lost as a result of their behaviour.



He could have done it a more appropriate way than basically telling them just to leave if they are to weak in soul to attend every Sunday. Most lapsed Catholics want Christ I was one myself but had I met this response I might never have returned at all. What made me return was priests who just didnt cut corners when it came to the truth of the faith. Not priests who couldnt be bothered preaching the truth from the pulpit and came up with an alternative idea to just tell those who are lapsed and disinterested to just have the maturity to leave the Church.

I think it's best that I listen to what the Archbishop said on the player tomorrow. Maybe it will give me a brand new perspective.

I will agree that people are never unwelcome, ever, even if the Liturgy is not perfectly the way others want it to be or think the Church should conform to them in any particular regard. It's a living thing afterall...

BostonB

Makes no sense to me, it comes across a little petulant. Telling people who are leaving already, to leave.

You'd think they'd want to try and hang on to as many as they can instead of pushing people away. But at every turn they seem to want to do the exact opposite. Seems like they'll refuse all change even if its a self destructive path.

Doc Farrell

DeVore wrote: »

Leave HOW?!

How exactly are we to follow his instructions and exit??

DeV.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PP.HTM

See last part, no. 3, I'm sure if you write someone a nice letter they'll let you go.

To be honest, although it seems like it, I'm no catholic apologist. But before you go why not contact a couple of non-crazy Catholics, Benedictines, Jesuits, franciscans, and find out what it is you are leaving? I find myself enraged by Catholics who cover up criminal abuse by other Catholics and yet I keep bumping into extraordinary people who work within the church whenever I have the guts to approach one.

mikeyboy

Cato Maior wrote: »

Yes, the standard of religious education in our local school is surprisingly weak. Our son is in first class but has not learnt even one of the major prayers yet. He has not the first clue as to what the 'Our Father' is. The 'Alive-O' series seems quite new-age to me.

Has it occurred to you to teach him the basics of his religion rather than leaving it to the school to do so?

DeVore

Onesimus wrote: »

I think what he means by ''Leave'' is to just not bother going to Church at all. Even when defection was in place before they brought in a new canon, had they left they would still be baptised as this sacrament can never be done away with, it's in the canons also.

Plus if there are baptised Atheists who want to leave the Church all they gotta do is leave, they cant be debaptised and one would wonder why that should bother them seeing as they dont believe their baptism to be valid anyways.

Because those baptismal numbers are used to "claim" Ireland as a catholic country.

I may not be able to undo the historic fact of my baptism but I have the right as an adult to have it undone and to not be counted among your numbers.

Its typical of the hierarchy to want rid of us, but keep us "on the books".

He wants me to leave. I want to leave. Its like the bloody scientologists actually LEAVING though...

DeV.

DeVore

Doc Farrell wrote: »

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PP.HTM

See last part, no. 3, I'm sure if you write someone a nice letter they'll let you go.

To be honest, although it seems like it, I'm no catholic apologist. But before you go why not contact a couple of non-crazy Catholics, Benedictines, Jesuits, franciscans, and find out what it is you are leaving? I find myself enraged by Catholics who cover up criminal abuse by other Catholics and yet I keep bumping into extraordinary people who work within the church whenever I have the guts to approach one.

Doc, with apologies, you know nothing about me.


I was educated for 6 years by the Jesuits.


DeV.

Cato Maior

mikeyboy wrote: »

Has it occurred to you to teach him the basics of his religion rather than leaving it to the school to do so?

I'm not a Christian. Why would I teach him any of that? I was merely making an observation on the religious education in the schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Another question: what exactly defines the "a la carte catholic?"

When I grew up, masturbation and sex outside of marraige was forbidden, as was the use of contraception. Is this still the case, or has Canon law changed? can they just change it, and if so how?

Genuine questions, because I think that if they are still in place the vast majority of catholics would be out if they are.

Cato Maior

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Another question: what exactly defines the "a la carte catholic?"

When I grew up, masturbation and sex outside of marraige was forbidden, as was the use of contraception. Is this still the case, or has Canon law changed? can they just change it, and if so how?

Genuine questions, because I think that if they are still in place the vast majority of catholics would be out if they are.

All three are still considered sinful.

Onesimus

DeVore wrote: »

Because those baptismal numbers are used to "claim" Ireland as a catholic country.

I may not be able to undo the historic fact of my baptism but I have the right as an adult to have it undone and to not be counted among your numbers.

Its typical of the hierarchy to want rid of us, but keep us "on the books".

He wants me to leave. I want to leave. Its like the bloody scientologists actually LEAVING though...

DeV.

Listen to what your saying though. Your actually saying '' As an adult I have a right to have undone a baptism I dont believe in''. Doesnt make sense to me.

All you gotta do is ring up and ask to be taken off the books. Defection wouldnt even be needed in that case as all your doing is unregistering from the parish you were baptised in.

Onesimus

Cato Maior wrote: »

Yes, the standard of religious education in our local school is surprisingly weak. Our son is in first class but has not learnt even one of the major prayers yet. He has not the first clue as to what the 'Our Father' is. The 'Alive-O' series seems quite new-age to me.

I would advise you to look into Homeschooling your Children. I would recommend you look up some links. It's legal here in Ireland to homeschool and there is a homeschooling group. Ya dont have to be educated and whats great about it is that both you and your child learn a lot in the process.

For example the schools you can do it from are all 100% Catholic. They are completely adherent to Church teaching unlike the state Catholic schools which are run by absolute a la carte priests and local theologians.

Some of the Schools are: Seton Homeschool, Maxamillian Kolbe, Mother of Divine Grace and the list goes on. they are all American but do it internationally too so it's like going to a private school for dirt cheap.

175 dollars ( about 100 euros ) for pre-kindergarten up to Kindergarten.

250 dollars for the year for 1st grade and they provide you with the books ( although some dont provide you with books )

Google some of the homeschooling places I gave you, and if you cant afford it they also give discount.

I hope that helps.

Keylem

DeVore wrote: »

Because those baptismal numbers are used to "claim" Ireland as a catholic country.

I may not be able to undo the historic fact of my baptism but I have the right as an adult to have it undone and to not be counted among your numbers.

Its typical of the hierarchy to want rid of us, but keep us "on the books".

He wants me to leave. I want to leave. Its like the bloody scientologists actually LEAVING though...

DeV.

While a person may want to remove themselves from the Baptismal Register of the Catholic Church and cease to be a member, however, you can never remove the indelible mark imprinted on the soul by the Sacrament of Baptism, which makes a person a member of the Body of Christ - you cannot undo the Sacrament of Baptism!

Onesimus

mikeyboy wrote: »

Has it occurred to you to teach him the basics of his religion rather than leaving it to the school to do so?

Has it occurred to you to teach your children the basics of Math and Geography rather than leave it to your school to do so?

This persons school offer to teach religion. Thats the thing. Parents also have the responsability of helping them with that schooling when they come home but not all parents are talented in the area of teaching, so religion should be taught just like anything else by those who know how.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Onesimus wrote: »

Has it occurred to you to teach your children the basics of Math and Geography rather than leave it to your school to do so?

This persons school offer to teach religion. Thats the thing. Parents also have the responsability of helping them with that schooling when they come home but not all parents are talented in the area of teaching, so religion should be taught just like anything else by those who know how.

When you say "teach religion", do you mean faiths in general or the Cathecism?

I'm all for the teaching of different faiths, but sacramental preperation should be done by the church and on the church's time. Firstly, because not every child in the class will be a Catholic and secondly because I would imagine the process will be handled a lot better by someone more committed to the faith and who knows a bit more than the average lay teacher, who may very well a an "a la carte" Catholic that the archbishop is trying to repel.

tricky D

DeVore wrote: »

Because those baptismal numbers are used to "claim" Ireland as a catholic country.

I may not be able to undo the historic fact of my baptism but I have the right as an adult to have it undone and to not be counted among your numbers.

Its typical of the hierarchy to want rid of us, but keep us "on the books".

The reason to keep us on the books partly assists in justifying control over education establishments. Result, non practicing parents who want the best choice for their offspring's education* are compelled to baptise them and it becomes a vicious circle.

* This is the sole reason my nieces and nephew got baptised.

mr.mickels

Manach wrote: »

Catholicism is a broad tradition with a long cultural and historical trail.

It sure has a long history, a centuries-long history of torture, murder and abuse. The Vatican city, in their own literature a city built on 7 hills, and they wear scarlet and purple there. Interesting what the KJV bible says in the book of revelations of a city of 7 hills. I always find it amazing that "Christians" follow a religion that for over a thousand years forbid any of their followers to read the Bible, a sin which was often punished by torture and death. Inquisition torture devices are an interesting view of how the Roman Catholic church were practicing the teachings of Jesus!!!

Doc Farrell

mr.mickels wrote: »

Manach wrote: »

Catholicism is a broad tradition with a long cultural and historical trail.

It sure has a long history, a centuries-long history of torture, murder and abuse. The Vatican city, in their own literature a city built on 7 hills, and they wear scarlet and purple there. Interesting what the KJV bible says in the book of revelations of a city of 7 hills. I always find it amazing that "Christians" follow a religion that for over a thousand years forbid any of their followers to read the Bible, a sin which was often punished by torture and death. Inquisition torture devices are an interesting view of how the Roman Catholic church were practicing the teachings of Jesus!!!

Sounds lovely, just like my local parish! Bring it all back!

bonniebede

tricky D wrote: »

The reason to keep us on the books partly assists in justifying control over education establishments. Result, non practicing parents who want the best choice for their offspring's education* are compelled to baptise them and it becomes a vicious circle.

* This is the sole reason my nieces and nephew got baptised.

No one is compelled to get baptised. It is a parents responsiblility to educate their children. Why should they be stopped from getting together in groups to organise this? And if they want that group to be of a particular flavour... christian, atheist, secualr humanist whatever, let them at it. And if the state feels that every child should have a share in the taxes collected from everybody to educate all our children then they should all get an equal share.

And finally, when a group of people successfully do this over a number of generations, like the Catholic church has done, why should that be considered wrong. If I contribute to a fundraiser for my local parish school or my local educate together school, I know I am benefitting future generations by building a school and an enduring educational institution. That is the whole point of an institution.

But if you choose to leave a particular group, say you are an atheist who becomes a Jew, then you also leave aside all the inherited benefits of that culture, like the educational establishments they have built up.

Can't have your cake and not believe in it:)

tricky D

bonniebede wrote: »

Parents control education not the state

No one is compelled to get baptised. It is a parents responsiblility to educate their children. Why should they be stopped from getting together in groups to organise this? And if they want that group to be of a particular flavour... christian, atheist, secualr humanist whatever, let them at it. And if the state feels that every child should have a share in the taxes collected from everybody to educate all our children then they should all get an equal share.

Nice spin but nevertheless back in the real world, around 90%, if not more, of schools are catholic run so any parent who quite properly wants the best options for their children has to get their child baptised. It's even worse in the country where the nearest non-catholic school might be tens of miles away.

Benny_Cake

bonniebede wrote: »

No one is compelled to get baptised. It is a parents responsiblility to educate their children. Why should they be stopped from getting together in groups to organise this? And if they want that group to be of a particular flavour... christian, atheist, secualr humanist whatever, let them at it. And if the state feels that every child should have a share in the taxes collected from everybody to educate all our children then they should all get an equal share.

And finally, when a group of people successfully do this over a number of generations, like the Catholic church has done, why should that be considered wrong. If I contribute to a fundraiser for my local parish school or my local educate together school, I know I am benefitting future generations by building a school and an enduring educational institution. That is the whole point of an institution.

But if you choose to leave a particular group, say you are an atheist who becomes a Jew, then you also leave aside all the inherited benefits of that culture, like the educational establishments they have built up.

Can't have your cake and not believe in it:)

It doesn't really work like that though, does it? At what size does a group of parents become big enough to be eligible for state funding? For example, if there were 2 Zoroastrian families in a town who insisted on a Zoroastrian school being provided for their kids, the state is hardly going to cough up the money. It seems to me that the most practical and fairest way to go is for the state to provide an education system unaffiliated with any religious body (with a Boards of Management consisting of parents) - and which allows for religious education to take place outside of school hours. Now if people or religious bodies want to provide their own schooling, they should be allowed to do so, but they would arrange their own funding (provided they met curriculum requirements).

The Quadratic Equation

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It doesn't really work like that though, does it? At what size does a group of parents become big enough to be eligible for state funding? For example, if there were 2 Zoroastrian families in a town who insisted on a Zoroastrian school being provided for their kids, the state is hardly going to cough up the money. It seems to me that the most practical and fairest way to go is for the state to provide an education system unaffiliated with any religious body (with a Boards of Management consisting of parents) - and which allows for religious education to take place outside of school hours. Now if people or religious bodies want to provide their own schooling, they should be allowed to do so, but they would arrange their own funding (provided they met curriculum requirements).

You've some faith in the Irish 'state'. I wouldn't let them look after my cat, never mind my Children's education. By all means get together with some like minded parents and set up your own multi/non denominational philosophy school, but don't leave it in the hands of the state. Instead of some dull grey carbon copy super sized state school, in our town we've a medium sized Catholic school, a small Church of Ireland school, and a small Educate Together school (set up by a few like minded parents a few years ago). It all works well. We all attend each others fund raising events etc. and the kids all mix in local teams events etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bonniebede wrote: »

No one is compelled to get baptised. It is a parents responsiblility to educate their children. Why should they be stopped from getting together in groups to organise this? And if they want that group to be of a particular flavour... christian, atheist, secualr humanist whatever, let them at it. And if the state feels that every child should have a share in the taxes collected from everybody to educate all our children then they should all get an equal share.

And finally, when a group of people successfully do this over a number of generations, like the Catholic church has done, why should that be considered wrong. If I contribute to a fundraiser for my local parish school or my local educate together school, I know I am benefitting future generations by building a school and an enduring educational institution. That is the whole point of an institution.

But if you choose to leave a particular group, say you are an atheist who becomes a Jew, then you also leave aside all the inherited benefits of that culture, like the educational establishments they have built up.

Can't have your cake and not believe in it:)

But therein lies the problem - what if the only school in the locality is a catholic school?