Gay in Dubai - madness to move there?

Plek Trum

Hi all,
would appreciate your opinions and thoughts on this...

My partner and I (female) have seen, like everyone in Ireland, a reduction in our salaries in our relevant careers over the last year or so and anticipate further cuts in the next 1 - 2 years.

We have had plans to travel for 9 - 12 months in the very near future but have a personal loans to clear first (getting there!)

Our sitution - after a bit of research we have located provisional job offers in Dubai in our career fields. Very nice tax free salary, accomodation provided, healthcare etc, free return flight home once in the 12 months etc.

This would give us the opportunity to clear debts much faster, get a semi-headstart on travel plans and experience the world.

The problem = its illegal to be gay in Dubai
Job offer is tempting, solves a lot of issues and gets us moving ahead with travel plans but on the other side, are we totally daft transferring our lives to a country that criminalises our relationship?

Not sure what to do, families have mixed opinions on it. We're not into huge shows of public affections, don;t need to go around holding hands and snogging (well, not constatntly anyway!)

I'd appreciate your thoughts on whether you think it would be a good / bad decision? Many thanks...

Moon Indigo

Firstly not sure of the situation in Dubai but here's my 2cent. I figure if it gives you and your partner a chance to get a head start in life then I would go for it. It sounds like your relationship is strong enough and you aren't into public displays of affection too much then it should not pose a major issue. There is always at home to do that! . For years in Ireland people where gay and lived lives and although I do know Dubai is not Ireland still. Actually do know someone who worked over there and found it okay he didn't stay long just like a year but apparenty the pay etc is very good.
I think if you want to go and this is a way forward why not go for it?

Victor

Plek Trum wrote: »

We're not into huge shows of public affections, don;t need to go around holding hands and snogging (well, not constatntly anyway!)

Any public displays of affection greater than a handshake are frowned upon and can get you in trouble with the law.

stargazer 68

Victor wrote: »

Any public displays of affection greater than a handshake are frowned upon and can get you in trouble with the law.

What he said - but that goes for any couple. Personally, having lived in the Middle East - I would go for it. Just mind who you disclose your relationship details to. As far as people are concerned you are friends sharing accommodation.

MagicMarker

Would I move to a country where I couldn't kiss or hold hands with my partner in public for fear of being thrown in prison?

Errrr...... no.

Moon Indigo

Think it depends Magic Marker if the pro's out weighed the cons. I mean your relationship can be eternal but if you have to just do what you have to do to better that relationship in financial terms or opportunity terms then why not take a year out and do it? I understand that its horrible to have to be in that situation in this day and age but its the world we live in unfortunatly.:(

finfinfin

go,make loads of money,yere just 2 people housesharing/flat mates.just go.you'll make so much money you won't know what to do with it.

you can still be gay behind closed doors.not like ye will be working together playing footsie under the table.

go,suck up the pretend non gayness,make a fortune,go travelling.happy days.

stephen_n

From what I know it isn't a huge problem unless you make it so as in Pda's. A guy who used to play with us lives out there and he has never said a bad word about it. He is certainly not very covert in his sexuality as in it's not hard to know he is gay. As women going you would have to modify your behaviour anyway as the culture is inherently anti women as much as anti gay but if it gives you a chance to get something you really want in life I would if I was you!

readyletsgo

TBH, Our sitution - after a bit of research we have located provisional job offers in Dubai in our career fields. Very nice tax free salary, accomodation provided, healthcare etc, free return flight home once in the 12 months etc.

Sounds pretty amazing to me! If you two are willing to 'hide' your love for eachother in public, but still lve together for a year or so, its just a small amount of time out of the rest of your lives together I dont see why not, it will be hard but at the end of the day this country is in the sh!tter for a long time coming with no light at the end of the tunnel, grab what you can, you have many years head to hold hands in public anywhere else in the world.

DO IT!!!

And best of luck to you both!
(not that you need it :-)

Plek Trum

Thanks for all the posts guys - very much appreciated!

Yes, on one hand it doesn't sit well not being able to 'be' us as we are here (together nearly 10 years now so well settled) but on the other its a great short term measure to get us up and on the move. My father reckons we'll "never be found again " (yes, direct quote!) if we head out there but other family/ friends seem quite positive about it, once we are careful.

Definately food for thought, I could manage 12 months of it but probably not longer. Thanks for the posts and encouragement though.. might even allow myself to get a little excited at the idea.. ;0) x

baby and crumble

My 2c? I personally wouldn't be happy giving any kind of income to a country that is so vehemently anti-gay. Yes, you'll be making lots of money, but you'll also be ploughing it back into that economy through rent, groceries, holidays within the area, etc.

That makes me sound like a such a pious cow, but it's my honest opinion.

el Bastardo

baby and crumble wrote: »

My 2c? I personally wouldn't be happy giving any kind of income to a country that is so vehemently anti-gay. Yes, you'll be making lots of money, but you'll also be ploughing it back into that economy through rent, groceries, holidays within the area, etc.

That makes me sound like a such a pious cow, but it's my honest opinion.

Yep, pious cow indeed (Some peeps need to earn money - Going to work in Dubai is better than selling your arsse on the wrong side of Dublin). Dubai can be a great place to live if you find a job that works for you. As for the whole gaysperience, can't really comment other than to say that when I was there (for few years), there was (apparently) a discrete gay scene going on. There are certainly plenty of seemingly gay men about, no doubt avoiding worse wraths in their home countries. There are also gay Saudis that use the health clubs to 'try it on', so to speak, just as there are Saudis drinking beer 'n' getting down with the prossies.

i guess what I'm saying is that it all goes on but you need to be VERY careful in what you do an where you do it.

anotherlostie

Public displays of affection are frowned on in Dubai and the UAE. Period. Straight, gay, whatever - you don't do it.

I was in Dubai Mall recently and a girl walked by dressed in a very tight, very short dress - you could see the people looking at her in disgust.

In another Mall there was a graphic sign on the way in to tell you to keep your shoulders and knees covered.

If you try to log onto gaydar or whatever and don't have a proxy, you get redirected to the Department of Censorship website.

That's just the way it is - I was there on holidays and I didn't like it. I wouldn't go back on holidays. But quite honestly, behind closed doors it is totally different - there are a couple of gay clubs, you just need to know people to know where they are. If you were living out there, you would build up your social network once you were street smart.

If I were in debt and had the offer of a great job for a year, I'd jump at it. If nothing else, you will have money, a great tan and an opportunity to meet people from all over the world. Morals are great, but you could waste your life protesting against these things and taking the high moral ground, and I seriously doubt it will make the Emirates any more tolerant.

Ambersky

There is an interesting article called
The dark side of Dubai
"Dubai was meant to be a Middle-Eastern Shangri-La, a glittering monument to Arab enterprise and western capitalism. But as hard times arrive in the city state that rose from the desert sands, an uglier story is emerging. Johann Hari reports"
Its one of the first articles that comes up if you Google gay in Dubai.

The author quotes someone who works in dubai as saying

"This is the most terrible place! I hate it! I was here for months before I realised – everything in Dubai is fake. Everything you see. The trees are fake, the workers' contracts are fake, the islands are fake, the smiles are fake – even the water is fake!" But she is trapped, she says. She got into debt to come here, and she is stuck for three years: an old story now. "I think Dubai is like an oasis. It is an illusion, not real. You think you have seen water in the distance, but you get close and you only get a mouthful of sand."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

I suppose everyone here knows that in Dubai sexual relations outside of a traditional, heterosexual marriage is a crime and punishments range from jail time, fines, deportation, and the death penalty.
A person may also face forced hormone treatments which may include chemical castration.
Adultery is also a crime, and a person convicted of homosexuality may also face charges of adultery if they have a spouse while having sexual relations with a person of the same-sex.

But I guess most people who go there think that nothing will happen to them if they keep their heads down.
This thread reminds me a bit of the TV series Banged Up Abroad because of course most people dont get banged up when they go on holidays but people do stupid things or get into unexpected circumstances and then the unthinkable does indeed happen.
There are a lot of changes going on in that part of the world at the moment some of it for the better but it would be as well in my opinion to have at least a look at what could possibly happen to you if something were to go wrong.
What kind of protections would be available, who should you contact, what rights do you have, how would you get home, etc.

If you read the Independent article the author didnt think she was going to need to deal with all that either.
Nor did the Canadian gay couple who found themselves arrested for carrying
prescription arthritis drug into Dubai.
They were kept in a filthy prison cell with eight other prisoners for 10 days before they were sent to separate prisons.
http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/Nightmare_in_Dubai_for_Toronto_gay_couple-7567.aspx

You might want to read this too Homosexuality in Dubai http://www.detainedindubai.org/Detained_In_Dubai/Gay_in_Dubai.html
The article is about gay men who of course have more freedom than lesbians or women in general in Dubai.
It talks about what can happen to gay men who get caught but I thought that the entrapment part was particularly ominous.

Homosexuality is not just a taboo subject in Dubai - its strictly forbidden and punishable by law.
Many LGBT individuals may chose to visit Dubai or the UAE but it is extremely important to be informed of the consequences of being openly gay in this region......
When the police find out about gay friendly clubs they get shut down fast, people get deported and punishments are likely imposed. Police reportedly frequent pubs and clubs with the intention of entrapping unsuspecting people. But, it’s not just the police who are entrapping homosexuals. There are stories of fundamentalists chatting online and meeting up with gay men and subsequently threatening to report them to the police.
Enjoying the underground scene doesn’t come without serious risks. There have been a few widespread reports regarding the condemnation of homosexual behavior in Dubai and the UAE. But many more stories likely go unreported.

On moral courage which is an issue which seems to be coming up here

from ethics.org
We use the phrase "courage of my convictions" in our society to assign courage to less extreme actions, to mere "everyday" actions. We want to acknowledge the courage demonstrated when the right thing is done, especially when others looked away or chose to do nothing--the courage demonstrated through holding onto to one's values is moral courage.

LGBT people are not the only ones suffering discrimination and a lack of rights in Dubai, as the Independent article again says

"You've got a hierarchy, haven't you?". "It's the Emiratis at the top, then I'd say the British and other Westerners. Then I suppose it's the Filipinos, because they've got a bit more brains than the Indians. Then at the bottom you've got the Indians and all them lot."

I guess Westerners, even us invisible keeping our heads down LGBT westerners, on our shaky second from the top rung of that ladder,
have some choices to make as to whether we want to look away from what is happening or just take advantage of the financial opportunities available to us.

Killer Pigeon

Isn't it true that Dubai authorities turn a blind eye to these sort of laws as they fear it might but off foreigners who are heavily invested in the country?

Sonics2k

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Isn't it true that Dubai authorities turn a blind eye to these sort of laws as they fear it might but off foreigners who are heavily invested in the country?

A bloke I went to school with and his bf moved there just over a year ago for similar reasons to the OP.

From what he's said is that most people seem to not mind/care as long as you keep it to yourself. If anyone asks, say they are your flatmate.
Other than that he actually quite likes it there, and has apparently made more in the last year than he would of in 3-4 years here due to the tax breaks.

As for the OP, remember Dubai is a Muslim state and so do have their own laws and traditions, and as you'd be in their country you'd need to respect those laws.

Ambersky

The argument that you know someone who had a good time and never had anything bad happen to them doesn’t answer the question of what happens if something bad does happen.
Nor does it say anything about the kind of things that happen to some people.
It is difficult to know exactly what is happening to LGBT people in UAE as there is censorship of the press and rumours only circulate among the people you can get to know personally.

The issue as to whether you care about what happens to others in a country you choose to live in, the choices you make or don’t make based on that consideration will shape the kind of person you become.
We have just come through a time in Ireland of fairly extreme individualism where moral courage was set aside if it got in the way of making money.
I personally don’t think that is the kind of behaviour I would like to see us carry into the future.
So I dont think that the sole consideration here is whether or not the Op individually will make enough money.

It’s not that being gay is against Muslim culture and you might offend someone, it’s about it being against the law in a country with punishments to back up that belief.
Going there under those circumstances you could think of as a gamble.
There are two factors to such a gamble, one is the odds of something happening, and those odds may be good.
But the other thing to factor in is what happens if you lose the bet.
What are the laws, what exactly would happen, what has happened to others, what rights if any would you have, who could help, how much would it cost and how would you get home.

On areas of concern, this is from the Human Rights section of the Wiki article on the United Arab Emirates
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates

Many expatriate workers, mostly of South Asian origin, have after their arrival in the UAE been turned into debt-ridden de facto indentured servants.[55] Confiscation of passports, although illegal, occurs on a large scale, primarily of unskilled or semi-skilled employees.[56]

The UAE's system of employment for non-citizens ties an employee to the employer and prevents him or her from seeking alternative employment without the express approval of the original employer. Also, among employers of foreign labourers non-payment of wages, cramped and unsanitary living conditions and poor health and safety practices are widespread and have been the subject of foreign media attention.

Labourers often toil in intense heat with temperatures reaching 54 degrees celsius (129 degrees Fahrenheit) in the cities in August. Temperatures in the desert can be higher. Official temperatures are censored during the summer months - this is a common practice among all Gulf countries.[57] Although attempts have been made since 2009 to enforce a midday break rule, these are frequently flouted and apply only to a narrow section of labourers - only those who work in direct sunlight, which neglects the vast majority, for example, those who work on construction sites without air-conditioning or even adequate ventilation. Those labourers who do receive a midday break often have no suitable place to rest and are seen seeking shade under bridges or palm trees, where outdoor temperatures remain intolerable.[58]

In order to institutionalize the fight against human trafficking, including that of expatriate workers for blue collar jobs, the UAE government has devised a four-pillar strategy: (1) legislation, (2) enforcement (3) victim support, and (4) bilateral agreements and international cooperation. In 2007 the National Committee to Combat Human Trafficking was established, which serves as a coordinating agency. The UAE has ratified the United Nations Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children (Palermo Protocol).

The victim support program includes protection, counseling and rehabilitation. Police departments and non-Government organizations provide shelter and support for human trafficking victims until they are able to acquire the right documents and many victims are then sent home at the Government’s expense, under the Crime Victim Assistance Programme. These shelters include the Dubai Women's and Children's Foundation, which was established in July 2007, and Ewaa in Abu Dhabi, which opened in late 2008, as well as the Human Rights Care Department in Dubai and the Social Support Centre in Abu Dhabi, which have been operating for several years.[53]

The issue of sexual abuse among female domestic servants is an area of concern, particularly given that domestic servants are not covered by the UAE Labor Law of 1980 or the Draft Labor Law of 2007.[59] Worker protests have been cracked down on.[60] Until today, the government has not allowed for trade unions to form despite having promised to do so since 2004.[61]

As Sharia prohibits sodomy, homosexual relationships are not commonly disclosed. The UAE is much more moderate on homosexual punishment than many of its neighbors.[citation needed] The death penalty is never implemented for homosexuality, and rarely life imprisonment.[citation needed] Foreigners generally receive deportation, which is sometimes temporary.[62][63] Prospective foreign employees infected with Hepatitis, Tuberculosis, or HIV will not be given work visas and have to leave the country.[64] There is, however, no screening of tourists

Freiheit

Reminds me of the 2022 soccer world cup going to Qatar,Homosexuals were told by Sepp Blatter,FIFA presidents,not to have sex while there.

That's off topic but I just felt like saying it.

Plek Trum

Plenty of valid points and I appreciate all your input - spent the weekend debating very similar ideas and concerns with my family and friends and yes, there's no clear cut 'obvious' decision to be made.

Will mull it over for another while, but it was interesting to read your ideas and opinions on our move there. All points vaild... and appreciated! Thanks, x

syklops

Its all very well saying "If you dont tell anyone that your gay, and your just two friends living together" and no public displays of affection and sure you'll be grand, but what happens if someone does find out. Whats the long and the short of it. Is it a fine, deportation, a night in a cell?

You would need to read the fine print. Worst case scenario and you do get deported, would you be liable for the rent of your apartment for the rest of the year or anything? Or any other fees?

Whats the job, if you dont mind me asking?