Deadlifts and my Lower Back

busyliving

Hey all,

I've been hitting the gym for the last week, and I've been working off a training program, put together from a few online sources...

But Tomorrow is back & chest, and deadlifts seem to be on all the workout programs, but my lower back has a history of giving me problems...And doing deadlifts don't look like i'll be comfortable doing them if i'm being honest...

So my question is...Is there any other exercises i can do, in place of deadlifts?

Cheers in advance

Wollwead

If you're new to fitness start with the basics in a full body routine 3 times per week. Improve your flexibility in the joints and in your workouts include lunges, push ups core work, and maybe add in something for the hamstrings like good morning, speak to one of the instructors at your gym and tell them to keep it simple and that you don't want to do ten different machines!

Burkatron

Wollwead wrote: »

If you're new to fitness start with the basics in a full body routine 3 times per week. Improve your flexibility in the joints and in your workouts include lunges, push ups core work, and maybe add in something for the hamstrings like good morning, speak to one of the instructors at your gym and tell them to keep it simple and that you don't want to do ten different machines!

Good advice but the bolded bit IMO has disaster (depending) written all over it!!

(Just asking for rationale sake, I might learn something) but why good mornings over deadlifts? They put more direct pressure on the spine & have the same lower back setup issues as DL's?

Why should the OP not just start really light Dl's that their back can manage & build up from there? I've always thought good mornings were a better accessory excercise for squats/Deadlifts rather then a replacement??

Vegeta

busyliving wrote: »

So my question is...Is there any other exercises i can do, in place of deadlifts?

I'm no expert but if you have a lower back problem then I'd guess most lower back exercises are also likely to cause issues.

Personally I'd spend that time assessing your lower back (and other problem areas, which may even be the original cause of a back injury) and then try to rehab it and work on it's flexability until your happier with it's functionality.

Thud

^^ agree with this, good mornings would be tougher on lower back.

You could start with some lighter dumbbell deadlifts to see if your back is up to it.
Warm back and hips up well before starting though, tightness in hips/hamstrings will lead to curving (outwards) of lower back which will lead to problems

Wollwead

Burkatron wrote: »

Good advice but the bolded bit IMO has disaster (depending) written all over it!!

(Just asking for rationale sake, I might learn something) but why good mornings over deadlifts? They put more direct pressure on the spine & have the same lower back setup issues as DL's?

Why should the OP not just start really light Dl's that their back can manage & build up from there? I've always thought good mornings were a better accessory excercise for squats/Deadlifts rather then a replacement??

Burkatron, IME (personal), I found that when I went and tried to just do DLs at a really light weight straight away, I was running in to problems with my lower back, even though I never had lower back issues as such. The same could be said for back squats. I went to a PT and his advice was spot on and simple. Lunges (improve upper hamstring and glute development), good mornings (hamstring flexibility, lower back development).

I'm not trying to make a diagnosis here but in most cases of lower back problems for people embarking on a new fitness journey, with a lot of today's lifestyles (sitting at a desk, sitting in the car/sofa whatevs) peoples joints and muscles are not performing as they should. The GMs are one exercise that really has helped me (as well as SLDL's) before then moving on to squats and standard DL's. Hamstrings being tight more often than not are a major cause of back pain. Keep it simple for a few weeks, hit the basics before moving on to the more technical lifts, when your flexibility (lower nody in particular) has improved. I see your point about asking an instructor for advice at the gym as well!! That's why I think it's extremely important to see a good PT from the start to get all of these technical/flexibilty issues addressed straight away.

diegowhite

Deadlifts are not a lower back exercise, they are a hip dominant primarily glutes exercise. The important thing is stabilizing of the back using the abdominals. Deadlifts / good mornings or anything that requires low back stabilization should not be performed without instruction from someone who knows how to properly do them and can assess your technique.

DB deadlifts work won't usually prepare most for BB deadlifts, the problems most people have is getting deep enough into the lift without rounding of the back and the limiting factor here is flexibility of the posterior chain.

Hanley

diegowhite wrote: »

Deadlifts are not a lower back exercise, they are a hip dominant primarily glutes exercise. The important thing is stabilizing of the back using the abdominals. Deadlifts / good mornings or anything that requires low back stabilization should not be performed without instruction from someone who knows how to properly do them and can assess your technique.

So you're saying the lower back doesn't function as a stablisier when deadlifting? That's crazy talk.

They're "primarily" an everything exercise. You can't pick one muscle group for such an integrated lift and say it's targeting that.

DB deadlifts work won't usually prepare most for BB deadlifts, the problems most people have is getting deep enough into the lift without rounding of the back and the limiting factor here is flexibility of the posterior chain.

I agree DB DLs are poor preparation, but for different reasons. They're closer to a TBDL if anything.

diegowhite

I never said the lower back doesn't function as a stabalizer. I'm saying it's more important to use your abdominals as the stabalizer, keeping them tight. Too many people think deadlifting is a lower back exercise and that's how they end up ****ing themselves up. Nor am I saying that glutes are the only muscle being targeted. But one is keeping nearly everything tight engadging nearly every muscle and using glutes primarily to get them out of the hole.

Hanley

diegowhite wrote: »

I never said the lower back doesn't function as a stabalizer. I'm saying it's more important to use your abdominals as the stabalizer, keeping them tight. Too many people think deadlifting is a lower back exercise and that's how they end up ****ing themselves up. Nor am I saying that glutes are the only muscle being targeted. But one is keeping nearly everything tight engadging nearly every muscle and using glutes primarily to get them out of the hole.

I dunno, I'd say it goes:
quads - knee extension off the floor
hamstrings - mid shin to above knees
glutes - from above the knees to lockout

But that's just me being awkward as usual.

I agree that total midline stability is important, and that tight glutes at the top will prevent hyper extension at lockout. we're just arguing semantics but it's Friday afternoon so I need something to keep me occupied. I'll actually put up a helpful post now...

Hanley

Here's what I'd do...

-get a good coach/trainer/lifter to run your thru how to deadlift (being able to deadlift doesn't mean you can teach it)
-give it a few weeks of intelligent programming, see how the back holds up
-if you're back's ok, continue programming intelligently
-if the back's not holding up, go to some form of rehab specialist who'll address the underlying issue and not just tell you to rest

If you were to do things right now to potentially prevent issues occuring, i'd shotgun it and do the following 3-4x per week for 10-15 minutes:
-roll your piriformis with a hockey ball
-foam roll the entire lower body complex, and thoracic spine
-do some glute activation work and hip mobility
-static stretch hip flexors post workout

Take out "deadlift" and put in "squat" and the same applies. Hell it applies as a general approach to training in general. Generally speaking.

Barry.Oglesby

Lately I've been using kettlebells to teach the deadlift for guys who are struggling to get to the start position. I start with them in a neutral/trap bar grip and then move them around to a regular grip after a few sessions. Then I move to the bar. I've found it pretty good. I started to do it because I wanted to keep them working while teaching them some technique.

Just an addendum to the dumbbell comment, and this is working with groups of 10+ as opposed to one on one.

Hanley

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Lately I've been using kettlebells to teach the deadlift for guys who are struggling to get to the start position. I start with them in a neutral/trap bar grip and then move them around to a regular grip after a few sessions. Then I move to the bar. I've found it pretty good. I started to do it because I wanted to keep them working while teaching them some technique.

Just an addendum to the dumbbell comment, and this is working with groups of 10+ as opposed to one on one.

Was listening to a Dan John podcast recently and he'd a good teaching method for the hip hinge, you've probably heard it, but most won't have...

-stand with your back against the wall, step out 2 inches and push your hips back touch your ass off the wall
-step out 3-4 inches and repeat
-step out more, repeat
-etc etc

really develops a sense of the hip hinge and how a loaded hamstring/posterior chain should feel

JJayoo

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_metabolic_swing&cr=

This is a nice article by Dan John about the hip hinge movement.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

Was listening to a Dan John podcast recently and he'd a good teaching method for the hip hinge, you've probably heard it, but most won't have...

-stand with your back against the wall, step out 2 inches and push your hips back touch your ass off the wall
-step out 3-4 inches and repeat
-step out more, repeat
-etc etc

really develops a sense of the hip hinge and how a loaded hamstring/posterior chain should feel

Yeah and um and uh.

I know and there are lot's of good things like this but to be brutally honest, I have an hour to both teach the deadlift and make them sweat and sore the next day. If I bring them in and make them scratch their hole off the wall I'm probably going to lose them. When I have someone who really understands what it is I'm trying to teach them, then I'll do something like this.

BraziliaNZ

I'd say steer clear of them. My back isn't the best but I've managed to stay in good shape and lift heavy without doing deadlifts. I kept perfect form and did them for years but every now and again my back would get f*cked and I'd be off my feet for a week or so. They are not necessary.

busyliving

Burkatron wrote: »

Good advice but the bolded bit IMO has disaster (depending) written all over it!!

(Just asking for rationale sake, I might learn something) but why good mornings over deadlifts? They put more direct pressure on the spine & have the same lower back setup issues as DL's?

Why should the OP not just start really light Dl's that their back can manage & build up from there? I've always thought good mornings were a better accessory excercise for squats/Deadlifts rather then a replacement??

I've been told never to do Good Mornings, they are too dangerous...

A mate damaged his back doing them, his doctor said the exercise has been linked to depleting spinal fluid and damaging the spinal cord, also the doctor heard his symptoms and asked him if he went to the gym and know he'd been doing Good mornings...

And his one of the best man I've seen in the gym, he practises his technique over and over again, before people jump in saying my mate injured himself from doing the exercise wrong

Barry.Oglesby

busyliving wrote: »

Burkatron wrote: »

Good advice but the bolded bit IMO has disaster (depending) written all over it!!

(Just asking for rationale sake, I might learn something) but why good mornings over deadlifts? They put more direct pressure on the spine & have the same lower back setup issues as DL's?

Why should the OP not just start really light Dl's that their back can manage & build up from there? I've always thought good mornings were a better accessory excercise for squats/Deadlifts rather then a replacement??

I've been told never to do Good Mornings, they are too dangerous...

A mate damaged his back doing them, his doctor said the exercise has been linked to depleting spinal fluid and damaging the spinal cord, also the doctor heard his symptoms and asked him if he went to the gym and know he'd been doing Good mornings...

And his one of the best man I've seen in the gym, he practises his technique over and over again, before people jump in saying my mate injured himself from doing the exercise wrong

I won't say just that then, I'll say 1 of 2 things happened.
1) he injured himself doing the exercise wrong
2) the doctor falsely attributed his injury.

GPs aren't sports injury specialists. If every member of this forum was MRIed tomorrow I'd say you'd see quite a lot of undiagnosed back injuries.

Good mornings are safe when done well, but if you had an existing lumbar difficulty it would probably be best to avoid them until it was healed.

busyliving

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I won't say just that then, I'll say 1 of 2 things happened.
1) he injured himself doing the exercise wrong
2) the doctor falsely attributed his injury.

GPs aren't sports injury specialists. If every member of this forum was MRIed tomorrow I'd say you'd see quite a lot of undiagnosed back injuries.

Good mornings are safe when done well, but if you had an existing lumbar difficulty it would probably be best to avoid them until it was healed.

Well it was the doctor he was sent to by his Boxing trainer, so I assume he was a sports doctor

Adhamh

Hey OP, I'll give you my experience on the topic. About this time last year I had crippling back problems; I used to skip lectures just because it pained me so much to simply sit in a chair.

Think of it like this: how many muscles are there in your body? Like 900 or something? Try to count them out. You have your biceps (2), triceps (3), quads (4), chest (2) etc so where are the majority of them? They're the size of your little finger and they run up and down your spinal column. You spine is like a tower of jenga- just weird shaped calcium rocks balanced on top of each other which house your spinal nerve, which if you damage, you're in serious trouble.

These little muscles have the job of keeping your spinal jenga tower from collapsing when you bend over and stuff but also when you pick stuff up (and all stuff can only be on top of you like a squat, or under you, like a deadlift). An awful lot of back pain (including my own) was because I never shifted heavy stuff and hence these little muscles were deteriorating due to a lack of use (why would your body waste valuable energy building muscles that you don't use?) and my vertebrae could slide around in ways in which nature never intended. So when you deadlift, these muscles seize up to stop your spine from exploding and keep your spine in it's natural shape. This is called isometric exertion. I can't really remember where I'm going with this because I'm kinda tipsy, but another thing is to work your muscles incremently- learn perferct form on each of your lifts (just read Starting Strength), on you first workout lift as much as you can without breaking form then eat and sleep right and the next time lift 1% more and 1%more the next time so that if you add 1kg to your deadlift each session twice a week that's like 100kg a year.

I started deadlifting with angelic form in Feburary last and my problems were much reduced in a few weeks and are now gone almost entirely. To summarise:

Real advice: see a doctor, examine the nature of your spinal problems and go from there.

Internet advice: do your ****ing deadlifts, you little bitch.

Hanley

busyliving wrote: »

Well it was the doctor he was sent to by his Boxing trainer, so I assume he was a sports doctor

GPs are like your local Spar owner. They sell you meat that won't kill you, veg that looks alright and a bit of chocolate.

But you'd be better served by more knowledgable specialists at the butchers, farmers market and willy wonka's chocolate factory.

Every exercise has the potential to injure you if done wrong. Most exercises have the potential to benefit you if done right.

busyliving

Adhamh wrote: »

Hey OP, I'll give you my experience on the topic. About this time last year I had crippling back problems; I used to skip lectures just because it pained me so much to simply sit in a chair.

Think of it like this: how many muscles are there in your body? Like 900 or something? Try to count them out. You have your biceps (2), triceps (3), quads (4), chest (2) etc so where are the majority of them? They're the size of your little finger and they run up and down your spinal column. You spine is like a tower of jenga- just weird shaped calcium rocks balanced on top of each other which house your spinal nerve, which if you damage, you're in serious trouble.

These little muscles have the job of keeping your spinal jenga tower from collapsing when you bend over and stuff but also when you pick stuff up (and all stuff can only be on top of you like a squat, or under you, like a deadlift). An awful lot of back pain (including my own) was because I never shifted heavy stuff and hence these little muscles were deteriorating due to a lack of use (why would your body waste valuable energy building muscles that you don't use?) and my vertebrae could slide around in ways in which nature never intended. So when you deadlift, these muscles seize up to stop your spine from exploding and keep your spine in it's natural shape. This is called isometric exertion. I can't really remember where I'm going with this because I'm kinda tipsy, but another thing is to work your muscles incremently- learn perferct form on each of your lifts (just read Starting Strength), on you first workout lift as much as you can without breaking form then eat and sleep right and the next time lift 1% more and 1%more the next time so that if you add 1kg to your deadlift each session twice a week that's like 100kg a year.

I started deadlifting with angelic form in Feburary last and my problems were much reduced in a few weeks and are now gone almost entirely. To summarise:

Real advice: see a doctor, examine the nature of your spinal problems and go from there.

Internet advice: do your ****ing deadlifts, you little bitch.

My back problems stem from one of my legs being a little shorter than the other and this has caused my back pain... I got it shorted out with a physio

I haven't had trouble in over a year but I still am very weary with my back when it comes to exercise...

Also what is "angelic form"

Lothaar v2

Hanley wrote: »

Here's what I'd do...

-get a good coach/trainer/lifter to run your thru how to deadlift (being able to deadlift doesn't mean you can teach it)
-give it a few weeks of intelligent programming, see how the back holds up
-if you're back's ok, continue programming intelligently
...

If you were to do things right now to potentially prevent issues occuring, i'd shotgun it and do the following 3-4x per week for 10-15 minutes:
-roll your piriformis with a hockey ball
-foam roll the entire lower body complex, and thoracic spine
-do some glute activation work and hip mobility
-static stretch hip flexors post workout

OP - The above is exactly what I did about a year ago, after banjaxing my back a few times trying to deadlift. I thought I had back or hamstring issues... but I really had hip issues. Sorted now and deadlifting is fun.

d-gal

If I find that people are struggling with deadlifts I do exactly what hanley said re Dan John against the wall.
The next thing I will do is start a deadlift from a cage (start from top of the movement) and emphasise how to load the posterior chain correctly. I have actually switched majority of clients deadlifting to this style and if its from the floor I generally use trap bar.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

GPs are like your local Spar owner. They sell you meat that won't kill you, veg that looks alright and a bit of chocolate.

But you'd be better served by more knowledgable specialists at the butchers, farmers market and willy wonka's chocolate factory.

Absolutely.
I remember the last time I went to the GP.
I walked in, looked at the shelves for the ailment I thought I had and browsed the shelves for what I thought was the appropriate treatment and paid an employee on the way out. Never having actually spoken or interacted with the GP, who of course wasn't there as they had hired a manager to do the job for them.

In case you didn't pick up on it, I am being sarcastic.
Your analogy is disrespectful and absurd.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Absolutely.
I remember the last time I went to the GP.
I walked in, looked at the shelves for the ailment I thought I had and browsed the shelves for what I thought was the appropriate treatment and paid an employee on the way out. Never having actually spoken or interacted with the GP, who of course wasn't there as they had hired a manager to do the job for them.

In case you didn't pick up on it, I am being sarcastic.
Your analogy is disrespectful and absurd.

In light of the disconnect between a GPs advice versus that of an expert in a specific area, I disagree.

Your dissection of the analogy is absurd. It's fairly obvious what I was getting at.

cmyk

busyliving wrote: »

My back problems stem from one of my legs being a little shorter than the other and this has caused my back pain... I got it shorted out with a physio

As Barry alluded to above with reference to the MRI's and undiagnosed issues, you can bet that there's a pretty high % of the population with leg length discrepancies to some degree or another too.

On another note I really wish people would stop advising others to learn proper technique from a book. As good as intentions may be, it just doesn't work like that, go get someone who knows what they're doing to take a look at you lift and see is there an issue arising there.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

In light of the disconnect between a GPs advice versus that of an expert in a specific area, I disagree.

Your dissection of the analogy is absurd. It's fairly obvious what I was getting at.

What are you basing this on?
What qualifies you to question the skills of a GP?
How can you generalise the entire profession? Have you worked in healthcare?
Have you been a GP? Conducted any research?

It is obvious what you are getting at.
You are getting at what you are saying. You chose to analogise the GP with the retail proprietor and the specialist with the skilled food specialist.

You are Analogising the business owner with the GP and the specialist with skilled trades-person.
The implication is that GPs are just filling a hole.
No matter what criticisms for the GP system in Ireland you are miles off base making statements like that.
You don't get to throw that kind of stuff around. It is arrogant, dangerous and unhelpful.

d-gal

d'Oracle wrote: »

Hanley wrote: »

In light of the disconnect between a GPs advice versus that of an expert in a specific area, I disagree.

Your dissection of the analogy is absurd. It's fairly obvious what I was getting at.

What are you basing this on?
What qualifies you to question the skills of a GP?
How can you generalise the entire profession? Have you worked in healthcare?
Have you been a GP? Conducted any research?

It is obvious what you are getting at.
You are getting at what you are saying. You chose to analogise the GP with the retail proprietor and the specialist with the skilled food specialist.

You are Analogising the business owner with the GP and the specialist with skilled trades-person.
The implication is that GPs are just filling a hole.
No matter what criticisms for the GP system in Ireland you are miles off base making statements like that.
You don't get to throw that kind of stuff around. It is arrogant, dangerous and unhelpful.

I think he is getting at that you don't go to a GP for everything. They are not expert sports sciences or nutritionist. I and many other trainers would train doctors and they wouldn't have a clue about certain training principles or nutrition. Hell last year a GP told me he would never let anyone take protein powder because 'its full of bad stuff'!
Majority of Ireland think that if you have any sort of health problem then the GP is the only solution. There are many alternative and better places to go

Hanley

d-gal wrote: »

I think he is getting at that you don't go to a GP for everything. They are not expert sports sciences or nutritionist. I and many other trainers would train doctors and they wouldn't have a clue about certain training principles or nutrition. Hell last year a GP told me he would never let anyone take protein powder because 'its full of bad stuff'!
Majority of Ireland think that if you have any sort of health problem then the GP is the only solution. There are many alternative and better places to go

Bingo.

Wollwead

d-gal wrote: »

I think he is getting at that you don't go to a GP for everything. They are not expert sports sciences or nutritionist. I and many other trainers would train doctors and they wouldn't have a clue about certain training principles or nutrition. Hell last year a GP told me he would never let anyone take protein powder because 'its full of bad stuff'!
Majority of Ireland think that if you have any sort of health problem then the GP is the only solution. There are many alternative and better places to go

I had a post typed out earlier on this morning (it wouldn't bloody post though!) getting at the same point regarding nutrition with GPs and the fact that a lot of them don't keep an open mind regarding studies/evidence on how certain foods are impacting us negatively and positively.

I completely agree with your point as well with there being other (and sometimes better) alternatives to the GP when it comes to certain things (nutrition/exercise etc).

Some people around here just like to create an argument just for the sake of it even though they probably actually can relate to the point that is being made.

Hanley

Wollwead wrote: »

I had a post typed out earlier on this morning (it wouldn't bloody post though!) getting at the same point regarding nutrition with GPs and the fact that a lot of them don't keep an open mind regarding studies/evidence on how certain foods are impacting us negatively and positively.

I completely agree with your point as well with there being other (and sometimes better) alternatives to the GP when it comes to certain things (nutrition/exercise etc).

Some people around here just like to create an argument just for the sake of it even though they probably actually can relate to the point that is being made.

Bingo.

I was talking to someone who was complaining how hard a time GPs have of it when it comes to keeping up to date with current info re: diet/training/nutrition because they've so much other stuff to consider. I'm not saying whether they should be up to date on that stuff or not.

But I think it's ridiculous to assume jsut because someone's a doctor they automatically know more about a health related area than someone who specialises in that are but doesnt' have the "Dr." prefix.

Adhamh

Sorry, let me try to be more helpful.

If you're wary of doing deadlifts, you could try back extensions using a roman chair, not exactly the same, but a reasonable substitute methinks.

Also, by 'angelic form', I meant doing them perfectly.

Best of luck OP.