Is there a market for boutique effects?

krd

I'm thinking of building effects pedals .... for money.

Is there a market for them. And I mean, enough of a market to make a living from doing it.

Just making a rough guess on the profit margin, if I was to do it, I'd probably need to sell anything between 20, to 100, or more a month for it to be viable.

I've an idea I could build several different things, once I'd get going. But I would need to earn enough to live on and fund the development of stuff (buy other people's electronics and rip off their ideas). I have some ideas for pedals no one else is doing. But if there's no one there to buy them, there's no point in trying to make them.

Are laptop driven effects killing off pedals?

SeanHurley

There definitley is a market for them I think, you should talk to Dave in Pure Pedals about how many he is shifting. http://www.purepedals.com/

I've recently used http://crushthebutton.com/. They have a great selection of pedals (and are developing wierder units with Moody Pedals).

Sites like these would point to there definitely being a market for such things. The days of everyone buying a Boss DS1 are numbered I think.

Splinters

Id imagine if it was just depandant on the local market then it probably wouldnt be enough to sustain a wage. Internationally though, via a website there could be a lot of potential. Especially if you have an idea for pedals that arent currently being made (you have me intruiged there). The power of a few well recorded demonstration videos could go a long way. Also get in contact with a few profesional bands who are on the map...not the U2's and Coldplay's of the music scene, but up and coming bands getting coverage in mags like NME and see if any of them would be willing to try out out your products in exchance for using their name in promotional material. If its a high quality product they like its a win win situation.

I think it would laregly come down to the quality of the product too. I mean if you were talking Distortion pedals for example....if I could get a Boss pedal that I knew to be reliable and high quality for 100 and you were had a similar but perhaps slightly inferior pedal for 60, then Id still go for the Boss. Im not trying to suggest your pedal would be inferior but ultimately quality of product (build quality too) would be my first concern any time I buy any new toys. Unless there was a massive difference in price Id go for the best quality product I can feasably afford.

SeanHurley

Splinters wrote: »

I think it would laregly come down to the quality of the product too. I mean if you were talking Distortion pedals for example....if I could get a Boss pedal that I knew to be reliable and high quality for 100 and you were had a similar but perhaps slightly inferior pedal for 60, then Id still go for the Boss. Im not trying to suggest your pedal would be inferior but ultimately quality of product (build quality too) would be my first concern any time I buy any new toys. Unless there was a massive difference in price Id go for the best quality product I can feasably afford.

I take your point about quality but I wouldn't put Boss on any pedestal. To my ears Boss pedals, particularly their OD and Distortion pedals, sound cheap and nasty and are tone suckers when not in use (as they are not true bypass).

Boutique pedals in general are made to much higher build qualities, are almost always true bypass and, crucially, offer something different to the mass produced Boss pedals.

I wouldn't trade either my Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret or my Diamond J-Drive for all the Boss pedals in the world. They maybe slightly more expensive but you do get what you pay for.

Splinters

I meant it more as an example then anything else. Replace "Boss" in that context with any other reputable effect manufacturer you wish.

SeanHurley

Splinters wrote: »

I meant it more as an example then anything else. Replace "Boss" in that context with any other reputable effect manufacturer you wish.

Sorry if that came accross a little confrontational dude, wasnt meant that way. You make a good point tho, quailty and reliablity are key to enticing people to stray from the more mainstream brands.

Splinters

Ahh its grand, it wasnt confrontational. I dont actually use any Boss pedals myself, just meant it as an example of a mass produced pedal brand.

I picked up an Axe Fx Ultra last year, for DI recording more so anything else but was pleasantly suprised that the effects are pretty much second to none so that has all my effect needs taken care of for the time being, well for guitar anyway.

SeanHurley

Does the Axe FX provide the OD/Distortion as well? If so what is the quality like?

I havent heard the Axe FX. I am always dubious about multi-fx doing gain based effects.

krd

Splinters wrote: »

Id imagine if it was just depandant on the local market then it probably wouldnt be enough to sustain a wage. Internationally though, via a website there could be a lot of potential. Especially if you have an idea for pedals that arent currently being made (you have me intruiged there). The power of a few well recorded demonstration videos could go a long way. Also get in contact with a few profesional bands who are on the map...not the U2's and Coldplay's of the music scene, but up and coming bands getting coverage in mags like NME and see if any of them would be willing to try out out your products in exchance for using their name in promotional material. If its a high quality product they like its a win win situation.

If I had a budget of a few hundred grand. Then they wouldn't be boutique products. My production would be starting on the cheap side - very limited production. Nothing that sophisticated. Maybe a few things no one is really doing. But maybe no one wants to buy a pedal that makes them sound different from everyone else.

BOSS are able to flood the market with pedals. They're able to buy components in bulk - a market in bulk. It's a pedal in a cheap die cast box. The electronics are not even that great. BOSS are too cheap to put a true bypass switch in them. There's not much of a range of sound from them.

There's economies of scale for everything. It's uneconomic for the big guys to make boutique pedals that will only sell a in the tens or hundreds. But for the little guy, it could be really lucrative. But still there needs to be a market.

Developing some pedals would be expensive. But if there were two hundred people out there willing to spend 500 quid on something no one else has - it could be well worth building that kind of product.

Splinters

Its absolutely top notch. Multieffects pedals/racks get a bad name from cheaper Boss/Zoom/Line6 units that try to do everything and end up doing it all badly. This thing is a different league altogether, and unfortunately for my bank account a different budget too. Its €2200 but worth every penny. I think it was the Sound On Sound review that said it was like Fractal Audio sat down with the sole intention of making exact amp modelling with absolutely no regards for pricing, just using whatever components and circutry needed to get it perfectly right and then seeing how much they could sell it for. Its not for everybody, and at that price I fully understand people opting for cheaper alternatives. But as somebody whos tried most of the alternatives this thing is so worth it.

Have a look yourself...

http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-axe-fx-ultra-standard.php

I just seen is recently been discontinued as they're about to bring out the Axe FX 2, which looks even better again. They're after getting a fairly respectable amount of artists switching over to them too.

SeanHurley

I think they are realistic numbers if (a) the product is built well and (b) it has a use (i.e is not different for difference sake).

There are some companies out there that specialise in really mental products that I am not sure many people have a use for eg the Audible Disease and Dwarfcraft Devices bit manglers and feedback loopers.

But there are some really small companies (under 5 person operations) doing really well by making good quality, useful pedals. Companies like DMB, Catalinbread and Dr. Scientist.

SeanHurley

Splinters wrote: »

Its absolutely top notch. Multieffects pedals/racks get a bad name from cheaper Boss/Zoom/Line6 units that try to do everything and end up doing it all badly. This thing is a different league altogether, and unfortunately for my bank account a different budget too. Its €2200 but worth every penny. I think it was the Sound On Sound review that said it was like Fractal Audio sat down with the sole intention of making exact amp modelling with absolutely no regards for pricing, just using whatever components and circutry needed to get it perfectly right and then seeing how much they could sell it for. Its not for everybody, and at that price I fully understand people opting for cheaper alternatives. But as somebody whos tried most of the alternatives this thing is so worth it.

Have a look yourself...

http://www.fractalaudio.com/p-axe-fx-ultra-standard.php

I just seen is recently been discontinued as they're about to bring out the Axe FX 2, which looks even better again. They're after getting a fairly respectable amount of artists switching over to them too.

Ah I am not in the market, I am very happy with my current rig (based around a tc-electronic G-System and and RJM RG-16 Amp Switching/Loop device. I am able to control all my favourite stomps in the loops of the RG-16, take the great delays, mods and reverbs from the tc and put em in the fx-loop of my Mesa and do all my amp channel switching/boost etc all using the foot controller of the G-System.

It was a complete melt to set up tho.

Welease

krd wrote: »

If I had a budget of a few hundred grand. Then they wouldn't be boutique products. My production would be starting on the cheap side - very limited production. Nothing that sophisticated. Maybe a few things no one is really doing. But maybe no one wants to buy a pedal that makes them sound different from everyone else.

BOSS are able to flood the market with pedals. They're able to buy components in bulk - a market in bulk. It's a pedal in a cheap die cast box. The electronics are not even that great. BOSS are too cheap to put a true bypass switch in them. There's not much of a range of sound from them.

There's economies of scale for everything. It's uneconomic for the big guys to make boutique pedals that will only sell a in the tens or hundreds. But for the little guy, it could be really lucrative. But still there needs to be a market.

Developing some pedals would be expensive. But if there were two hundred people out there willing to spend 500 quid on something no one else has - it could be well worth building that kind of product.

The problem you will have (as I see it) is that you want to charge boutique prices for non boutique pedals.. or you need people to stump up serious money (£500 quid) for something they haven't seen or really heard (even the boutique pedals have lots of high quality reviews available before you need to spead a dollar to purchase).

People will pay a higher price for high quality pedals but that takes knowledge, money and a damn good design in order to be successful. If you have the time, knowledge and money to put something out there like that then there is a chance you could be successful (with some luck and a lot of hard work).
If on the other hand you were going to assemble other folks designs (like BYOC's, Der Screamers etc.) then it's really hard to make money.. They seem to sell for about £20 more than the cost of the components. I knew some lads in the UK who used to do it for fun, but there was never going to be a living wage made.

One option may be to make 10-50 of a pedal that noone else makes.. and sell them through boutique shops with some form of revenue split. if they clear out the first bunch then you could commit to making more. A sale or return offer may be enough to get them to take a chance on you.

Best of luck.

krd

SeanHurley wrote: »

I think they are realistic numbers if (a) the product is built well and (b) it has a use (i.e is not different for difference sake).

Well different for the sake of different can make something worthwhile. Some boutique pedals I've seen, the art work seems to be a major selling point.

Some people may want to fill a crate with rack mounted gear - because it looks better. But a lot of that rack mount stuff is just recomposed digital audio processors, that are probably in several things.

If I had the budget - I could find out what the different rack mount boxes on the market are - find out who's done their boards - get the boards, make some cosmetic changes. Change the programming, just really change the aesthetics, and viola - I have a new rack mount.

Digital audio stuff is incredibly difficult and expensive to create from scratch.

There are some companies out there that specialise in really mental products that I am not sure many people have a use for eg the Audible Disease and Dwarfcraft Devices bit manglers and feedback loopers.

But there are some really small companies (under 5 person operations) doing really well by making good quality, useful pedals. Companies like DMB, Catalinbread and Dr. Scientist.

You could only ever really do this kind of thing on a small scale. There just isn't the mass market for musical equipment. Paying the wages for five people, materials and marketing. You still have to sell a lot of equipment. And the other problem is competing with f'***kers in China, who have already got in on the boutique business, and can get highly skilled electronic engineers to design stuff very cheaply (or simply take apart someone else product, a copy it) .

I was looking at something Dr. Scientist. had done. I think he's using a digital circuit from Keith Barr - the guy who started Alesis (he sold Alesis to Numark).

Keith Barr's circuit is a ready to go multi-effects processor. But you could dedicate it any particular effect. And Keith Barr has been at this for forty years.

I'd say for a large enough order - his company would do all the fiddly bits, leaving you to just do the casing and artwork, and distribution.

I've realised, there are several effects that are not on the market - that there would be a market for. Simply because people just haven't thought of them. I'm not going to suggest what they are. Because someone will beat me to it if I do suggest what they are.

krd

Welease wrote: »

One option may be to make 10-50 of a pedal that noone else makes.. and sell them through boutique shops with some form of revenue split. if they clear out the first bunch then you could commit to making more. A sale or return offer may be enough to get them to take a chance on you.

That's really what I had in mind. I'll see, I'll have to look into it more.

I'm thinking of it as a way of possible restarting my career in electronics - as I don't want to work in any of the other quite literally sh1t, I've working in before.

Welease

krd wrote: »

That's really what I had in mind. I'll see, I'll have to look into it more.

I'm thinking of it as a way of possible restarting my career in electronics - as I don't want to work in any of the other quite literally sh1t, I've working in before.

The difficulty will be in making people want the pedal.. So you may need to send a few out for review etc..

On the plus side, you know how to do decent recordings, so at least you won't be asking people to spend a $$$$ based on a crap YouTube video using the Video mic which makes it impossible to actually hear the effect

krd

Welease wrote: »

The difficulty will be in making people want the pedal.. So you may need to send a few out for review etc..

On the plus side, you know how to do decent recordings, so at least you won't be asking people to spend a $$$$ based on a crap YouTube video using the Video mic which makes it impossible to actually hear the effect

I'm planning to try a few - priced well under a hundred. Something with a very small margin just to get over the glitches and see what I need.

By the time I would be expecting a profit of over a hundred or more, that would be a different situation. With a different kind of pedal.

I think a lot of that well recorded Youtube stuff is nonsense. Promo stuff is always juiced up in a studio. Equipment promo stuff is usually nothing like the product. I'd have to put a little disclaimer in small print *note equipment does not come with amp, guitar, sound engineer, mastering and other effects.

Welease

krd wrote: »

I think a lot of that well recorded Youtube stuff is nonsense. Promo stuff is always juiced up in a studio. Equipment promo stuff is usually nothing like the product. I'd have to put a little disclaimer in small print *note equipment does not come with amp, guitar, sound engineer, mastering and other effects.

Agreed, but what I mean is.. while you don't have the revenue, name or connections to get your pedals "known" (and therefore make me want to spend money on them sight unseen) I would be reduced to listening to a clip on Youtube/Soundcloud etc. to get an idea if I want to spend money on it..

At least make that clip something that will sell the pedal..

As an example.. I did a quick check for Boutique pedals on YouTube... Would you spend money on this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWuqb8gWazw

krd

Welease wrote: »

Agreed, but what I mean is.. while you don't have the revenue, name or connections to get your pedals "known" (and therefore make me want to spend money on them sight unseen) I would be reduced to listening to a clip on Youtube/Soundcloud etc. to get an idea if I want to spend money on it..

I know what you mean. But I might just start making novelty pedals to start with. I really don't know. I kind of want to do it as an avenue to relearn my electronics.

But the thing about pedals - like distortion - sometimes the simplest an crudest designs can have really great sounds. My first distortion pedal - was really iffy. But people kept offering me money for it - or to swap their BOSS's - because it just had such a great range of sounds. And it sounded nothing like a BOSS.

At least make that clip something that will sell the pedal..

As an example.. I did a quick check for Boutique pedals on YouTube... Would you spend money on this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWuqb8gWazw

The thing is - that pedal could actually be great.


Some pedals are worth buying for how they look

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CIVIL-WAR-ERA-BOUTIQUE-MUFF-FUZZ-RUSSIAN-SPY-TRUE-BYPASS-CREAMY-DREAMER-SWITCH-/230712657367?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item35b78bc5d7#ht_2574wt_952

studiorat

Myself and a mate considered selling kits at one stage. Prototype a effects pedal, get it working order the bill of materials. Then there's a company in Limerick who could produce PCB's. Stick the whole kit in a little bag with some instructions and flog 'em!

Saves the grief of having to make lots of the same pedal and leaves you with a much more flexible stock.

Also considered doing a digital version with something like a beagle board much tricker to set-up.