Department of Justice suggests cuts to Garda guns and traffic corps

audidiesel

words fail me to describe how bad an idea all that is. lives will be lost if they went ahead with it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308686664.html

CONOR LALLY, Crime Correspondent

THE DEPARTMENT of Justice has recommended the number of gardaí carrying firearms be reduced by almost three-quarters to save money.
Under the proposal, only detectives attached to specialist Garda units such as the emergency response unit and the anti- terrorist special detective unit would carry firearms.

There are currently 3,616 gardaí licensed to carry firearms.
The review of expenditure has recommended this be reduced to 1,000, to deliver an estimated €2.7 million in savings every year.
The reduced expenditure would be achieved through the reduced use of ammunition and targets in practice ranges and reduced expenses for firearms instructors and gardaí attending firearms courses. The significant reduction in the number of gardaí carrying firearms would represent a major shift for the force, an organisation in which all detectives have carried guns for decades.

Other mooted measures involve greatly reduced flying hours for the Garda helicopter – from 1,800 flying hours annually to 800. This would achieve savings of €400,0000 in 2012.

The 1,200-strong Garda Traffic Corps would be broken up to free up personnel for other duties, despite being arguably the biggest success story of Irish policing over the past decade. It has been credited with leading the change in driver culture and ushering in a new era of lower road fatalities.

Some members of the traffic corps would be deployed elsewhere to fill vacancies as a spike in Garda retirements and the public-sector recruitment moratorium continues to run down the overall strength of the force.

The justice section of the comprehensive review of public expenditure notes of the traffic corps scaling-back: “Such a move is likely to attract negative criticism from agencies with a vested interest in road safety. However, a measured reduction could be publicly justified with an appropriate communications strategy.”

The Garda Band was considered for closure, but the Department of Justice’s submission to the spending review decided against recommending its disbandment on the basis any saving would be negligible because 96 per cent of its budget is pay-related.
The spending review suggested the worsening overcrowding crisis in the prison system, coming at a time when no funding is available for new jails, should be tackled with the electronic tagging of prisoners. A search has already begun for 100 suitable inmates to release early from jail on tags in order to free up spaces. If deemed successful, the plan would be expanded.

A range of measures to raise revenue for the Garda have also been put forward. These include increasing charges to sporting bodies for Garda crowd control and public-order services for events such as major GAA fixtures and rugby and soccer internationals.

Charges for Garda escorts for transporting commercial explosives have also been suggested.

msg11

What ? Who comes up with this madness !

I take it the saving of 40 million with flying time is a typo ?

Hooch

msg11 wrote: »

What ? Who comes up with this madness !

I take it the saving of 40 million with flying time is a typo ?

I assume its 400,000. Never the less they are mad. Traffic has already been reduced and are nowhere near that number. More like 1,000 now. TC weren't along in reducing fatals but did have the biggest part to play in it. One extra fatal a year would be one too much.




*And its 4 million he has typed not 40 million:D

Delancey

Crazy suggestions but I wonder are they part of a scare tactic to wring extra funding from Finance ?

pa990

.

starviewadams

They cannot be seriously considering these measures!

POGAN

Shatter is shattering the Gardas, god for bitted something really bad happens

ectoraige

I can't think what suggestions like this are doing for morale. I'm surprised they didn't suggest selling off the TETRA units and replacing them with tin-cans.

MagicSean

Mental idea. Are they going to come to some kind of contractual agreement with violent gangs to reduce their numbers?

Sometimes I think the DoJ don't know there are Gardaí who aren't based in Dublin.

ah i think they could easily reduce he amount of firearms holders in the Guards. for an unarmed force there is a huge amount of firearms out there!!

and to be fair there are an awful lot of detectives who are based in offices, never actually out in the 'field' so to speak.

i guess money could be saved on the training/ammunition.

cant see the sense of getting rid of the traffic lads though, its like the DOJ agree with people who say that traffic isnt real Garda work eh?
rather than have them out on the roads, sure maybe they would be better inside answering the hatch!!

iceage

Its becoming very obvious that Shazzy has totally lost the plot. Surely he should at least be maintaining the number of guys that are armed, if not increasing it.

In my opinion

ectoraige wrote: »

I can't think what suggestions like this are doing for morale. I'm surprised they didn't suggest selling off the TETRA units and replacing them with tin-cans.

Can you sell off something you pay daily rent on????

petergfiffin

The reduced expenditure would be achieved through the reduced use of ammunition and targets in practice ranges and reduced expenses for firearms instructors and gardaí attending firearms courses. The significant reduction in the number of gardaí carrying firearms would represent a major shift for the force, an organisation in which all detectives have carried guns for decades.

I can't seriously imagine the cost of ammunition or targets being a driver here. As for the cost of ranges & instructors why can't Army instructors & ranges be used? I know the weapons are slightly different but surely it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.

The Garda Band was considered for closure, but the Department of Justice’s submission to the spending review decided against recommending its disbandment on the basis any saving would be negligible because 96 per cent of its budget is pay-related.

What a ridiculous argument, talk about pet projects ! If you scrapped the band would that not free up those officers for operational duties? How can you say it's too expensive for officers to spend their day on the range but it's fine for them to stand around playing music (not counting any practice time they get). Don't get me wrong I think the Garda band are fantastic but sadly I reckon a lot more of their time is going to be spent playing at the gravesides of Gardai.

eroo

The money being saved by those proposed cuts could very easily be saved by having a salary cap of €90,000 for anyone in Govt!! Or maybe get rid of the Seanad? No sure that makes sense!

The only things that will happen if these cuts are brought in:

- Road deaths will rise due to little or no serious traffic enforcement
- Gardai will be seriously hurt, and when there are Gardai killed I hope Shatter can look those families in the eye when he justifies those cuts
- The decent people in this country are going to suffer while the rotten prosper!

Garda helicopter hours down by a 1000 to save €400,000??? Seriously..

petergfiffin

petergfiffin wrote: »

I can't seriously imagine the cost of ammunition or targets being a driver here. As for the cost of ranges & instructors why can't Army instructors & ranges be used? I know the weapons are slightly different but surely it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.


the Gardai dont use their own ranges, havent for years afaik, they use army ranges, ones like mullingar army barracks, which obviously will be gone now they are closing up!
i believe ammunition is expensive enough and maybe if they took firearms off the people in offices ( do fingerprints experts & people working in fraud/computer crime etc really need to hold guns?)
the fact that there is less ranges available makes it harder for everyone to get their training in. (which costs money)

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

ah i think they could easily reduce he amount of firearms holders in the Guards. for an unarmed force there is a huge amount of firearms out there!!

For a country with strict gun laws there are a lot of guns out there.

Also, just because you hold a gun card does not mean you have your own gun.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

For a country with strict gun laws there are a lot of guns out there.

Also, just because you hold a gun card does not mean you have your own gun.

true, but they still need training every year to have the card. pointless really if they are not carrying all the time, dont ya think?

arybvtcw0eolkf

bubblypop wrote: »

true, but they still need training every year to have the card. pointless really if they are not carrying all the time, dont ya think?

That doesn't make sense.

If your going to be armed at any time in the year you should be required to do your annual range practice and any other tests of elementary training.

Sgt. Bilko 09

minister shatters introduced the new patrol cars
i can see these having an influence on car crime
his idea's always seem to work sense the sarcasm

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRis2xYcJGcDq9ByHczcelxrvV-_b2zSt_Eqc_Uwp7EaLLCcSI9Ng&t=1

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

true, but they still need training every year to have the card. pointless really if they are not carrying all the time, dont ya think?

No.

Delancey

petergfiffin wrote: »

Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.

Good question , perhaps someone could confirm if an allowance is paid ? If there is an allowance that would probably explain this proposal.

goldie fish

From memory, no, but as card holders carried only while in plain clothes, they were entitled to the Plain Clothes allowence.

bravestar

Delancey wrote: »

petergfiffin wrote: »

Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.

Good question , perhaps someone could confirm if an allowance is paid ? If there is an allowance that would probably explain this proposal.

I don't get any allowance for it so no, nothin for carrying a firearm.

talla10

So what happens when armed assistance is required?? Are we to see an increase of state funerals of Gardai killed in the line of duty??

Or in the case of Traffic how many thousands of lives will be lost on our roads??

Disgraceful the government can obviously put a price on life

Corruptable

This is truly regressive, and whatever way you look at it, it's has the potential to cost lives.

Throughout the last 10 years there has been a lot of work put into road safety in this country, and the Traffic Corps have been at the forefront of that, as there's no point in legislation and road safety campaigns if there's no one out there with the specific remit of enforcing road traffic law and educating motorists. Even today there was a letter in the Irish Times highlighting the number of motorists driving without proper lighting and requesting gardai to tackle it.

The availability of firearms and other offensive weapons are clearly on the rise. Many other EU countries allow civilian purchase of the same type kit as gardai in terms of pepper spray, ASP style batons, stun weapons, etc. So as it is, it's not beyond reason for a uniformed member to come up against a criminal armed with similar equipment, how would that play out?

Will this cut affect the Regional Support Units, as I was of the belief that they are the only armed units available apart from a limited number of plain clothes detectives in parts of the country?

Not going to be a pleasant place to live if these type of cuts keep up.

heffomike54

Firstly I totally agree that these cuts are stupid and could cause lives to be lost but hopefully not.

But given that cuts were always going to happen, what other areas of the Garda budget could have been cut? I mean regardless of what section's budget or expenses were being cut, it would have not gone down well.

audidiesel

Delancey wrote: »

Good question , perhaps someone could confirm if an allowance is paid ? If there is an allowance that would probably explain this proposal.

no theres no allowance for carrying a firearm.

technically you should be getting a plain clothes allowance if your armed, but we dont get that ourselves here either.

MagicSean

heffomike54 wrote: »

Firstly I totally agree that these cuts are stupid and could cause lives to be lost but hopefully not.

But given that cuts were always going to happen, what other areas of the Garda budget could have been cut? I mean regardless of what section's budget or expenses were being cut, it would have not gone down well.

Cutting out the excess paperwork would probably save millions of euro and acres of rainforest.

heffomike54

MagicSean wrote: »

Cutting out the excess paperwork would probably save millions of euro and acres of rainforest.

Agreed, easier said than done

MagicSean

heffomike54 wrote: »

Agreed, easier said than done

Not really. Perfectly good internal email system already in place. Just needs to be used.

source

MagicSean wrote: »

heffomike54 wrote: »

Agreed, easier said than done

Not really. Perfectly good internal email system already in place. Just needs to be used.

I think he's saying it'd be impossible to get management to agree to it as opposed to a technological barrier.

scholar007

Good thing Dirty Harry isn't working in Paddyland - I don't think he would hand in his magnum quietly Well, do ya punk?

Corruptable

source wrote: »

I think he's saying it'd be impossible to get management to agree to it as opposed to a technological barrier.

Now that you mention it, can I ask why there is no provision for external email communication?

Clearly I know that there may be security concerns, as well as concerns that emergency issues would be emailed in some cases rather than called, but surely this can be made clear as in the PSNI and mainland UK Police usage of an external email.

My own view is that it would lead to a lot more information (some verified, some unverified) coming to the attention of Gardai, which would be at their discretion to act upon or not, depending on the circumstances.

sdanseo

That's obscene. You cant take a gun from a Garda who's been carrying for years and who the public will know has been stripped of it. They'll be constantly looking over their shoulders.

Apallingly stupid...but then it's the DOJ so no surprises there.

shampon

Too much middle management in the shades....

eroo

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rise-in-garda-death-threats-causes-alarm-2960381.html

And yet they continue to bring in cuts..

MissEmcee

As someone asked - about €13 for a box of 50 cartridges of 9mm.

Corruptable

Must have some balls on them to threaten a guard, no wonder they show even less regard for ordinary citizens. What happened to sec. 5 NFOATPA 1997, surely they can be prosecuted under that and surely there is a Judge somewhere on the island that would hand down the maximum 10 years sentence?

Trust1

petergfiffin wrote: »

The reduced expenditure would be achieved through the reduced use of ammunition and targets in practice ranges and reduced expenses for firearms instructors and gardaí attending firearms courses. The significant reduction in the number of gardaí carrying firearms would represent a major shift for the force, an organisation in which all detectives have carried guns for decades.

I can't seriously imagine the cost of ammunition or targets being a driver here. As for the cost of ranges & instructors why can't Army instructors & ranges be used? I know the weapons are slightly different but surely it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.

The Garda Band was considered for closure, but the Department of Justice’s submission to the spending review decided against recommending its disbandment on the basis any saving would be negligible because 96 per cent of its budget is pay-related.

What a ridiculous argument, talk about pet projects ! If you scrapped the band would that not free up those officers for operational duties? How can you say it's too expensive for officers to spend their day on the range but it's fine for them to stand around playing music (not counting any practice time they get). Don't get me wrong I think the Garda band are fantastic but sadly I reckon a lot more of their time is going to be spent playing at the gravesides of Gardai.

Just to bring you up to speed -
(1) Gardai don't get an allowance for carrying firearms.

(2) Members of the Garda Band were recruited under different procedure (due to their musical talents) and haven't completed the full 2 year training programme that regular Garda units have. Also they would not receive the same level of Continuous Professional Development and would not b up to speed with current legislation do you can't just "disband the band" and put them policing.... They carry out a vital function of P.R. Which is much appreciated in Community Policing circles

Trust1

Delancey wrote: »

petergfiffin wrote: »

Would I be right in guessing AGS members get an additional allowance for carrying weapons? If so this might be more like the reason they want to cut the numbers.

Good question , perhaps someone could confirm if an allowance is paid ? If there is an allowance that would probably explain this proposal.

...... No there is no allowance paid for Garda Firearms Card holders/gardai authorised to carry firearms. The firearm is there for protection of the public and the members carrying out that duty.....

Bosh

Trust1 wrote: »

(2) Members of the Garda Band were recruited under different procedure (due to their musical talents) and haven't completed the full 2 year training programme that regular Garda units have. Also they would not receive the same level of Continuous Professional Development and would not b up to speed with current legislation do you can't just "disband the band" and put them policing.... They carry out a vital function of P.R. Which is much appreciated in Community Policing circles

It's not as if the rest of us have in the last five years or more?? :rolleyes:

goldie fish

The Band's garda training consists of how to wear the uniform properly, how to march, and the difference between a Commissioner and an inspector.

Terrontress

It's not as if AGS can go placing adverts for themselves on billboards or in newspapers.

They have to promote themselves with methods such as the band. I think that the band is a great display and creates goodwill that is invaluable. It also provides something, music, which the ordinary person can have in common with a guard.

Am I right that the bandsmen also do operation freeflow at Christmas time?

Terrontress

Terrontress wrote: »

Am I right that the bandsmen also do operation freeflow at Christmas time?

No. That was the poor spa's sent out from Templemore for the first time!

Zambia

Either way they just stand there holding their flute.

Shield

foreign wrote: »

No. That was the poor spa's sent out from Templemore for the first time!

Boo. Unfair. No need to call them that. Not a mod post or anything, just boo-urns. We were all students of the game at one point.

goldie fish

Shield wrote: »

Boo. Unfair. No need to call them that. Not a mod post or anything, just boo-urns. We were all students of the game at one point.

Be honest, when we first left templemore without student tabs, and a tutor garda to mind us, we were all a bit like this..

(thumper being the phase that started out the phase before yours)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSh1eLrxiqs

Mr Jinx

Shield wrote: »

Boo. Unfair. No need to call them that. Not a mod post or anything, just boo-urns. We were all students of the game at one point.

being a free flow phase, I think its fair to say at some stage standing at a junction I thought, what did I do to deserve to be standing here like a spa !!

Shield

Mr Jinx wrote: »

being a free flow phase, I think its fair to say at some stage standing at a junction I thought, what did I do to deserve to be standing here like a spa !!

Can't argue with that!

Some don't even have ANY equipment, not even Hi-viz jackets at night!

An Udaras

I see our neighbors got a mention in the linked article.. Surely this will be dimly viewed by Garda management? Especially drug squad stuff..

kub

An Udaras wrote: »

I see our neighbors got a mention in the linked article.. Surely this will be dimly viewed by Garda management? Especially drug squad stuff..

I do not buy that 'paper', seriously though, we have all seen old patrol cars, unwashed cars, a noticeable decline in the prescence in Traffic corp and especially motor cycles.

But in fairness toilet roll? Are things really that bad?