Garda Immigration to replaced by Civil Servants

An Udaras

In recent weeks there have been several articles in different Irish news papers including the Irish Indo and the Star about civil servants in the DOJ being offered the opportunity to serve in as part of a pilot scheme as Border Guards within the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin Airport.

They will augment current Garda officers on the booths and the rumor among friends of mine serving currently with GNIB is that if the pilot scheme is successful that civil servants will take over the Garda role totally.

In a similar manner to how Custom officers are recruited from Revenue's civil servants.

Could we see an Irish Border Agency in a similar manner to the UK Border Agency who are all civil servants and not Home Office Police taking over the role from the GNIB/Gardai???

Delancey

Frankly Ireland is out of line with most other European countries with immigration being handled by the Police as opposed to a dedicated Immigration/Border service.
Changes to the way things are done have been well-flagged for quite some time now.

have_a_go_hero

it would be a good idea...get the Gardai doing something more productive...which will hopefully contribute to reduction in crime levels.

goldie fish

Customs and border are done by a single agency in the UK nowdays.

djk1000

It always struck me as odd that trained Gardai spent a lot of their time checking passports. Makes sense to keep a smaller number of Gardai for investigations/arrests/detentions/deportations and leave the run of the mill stuff to clerical staff.

Spacedog

On one hand I'm thinking emigrants are not criminals and so the police shouldn't necessary do the job, but on the other hand they deserve to be treated better than to have to deal with our lazy, incompetent civil servants.

belacqua_

goldie fish wrote: »

Customs and border are done by a single agency in the UK nowdays.

Have the UK done away with customs officers entirely now, Goldie, are former uniformed customs officers now UK Border Agency Officers? I see that their cutters have been re-flagged and re-liveried.

Dub Counsel

Spacedog wrote: »

On one hand I'm thinking emigrants are not criminals and so the police shouldn't necessary do the job, but on the other hand they deserve to be treated better than to have to deal with our lazy, incompetent civil servants.

There are thousands of civil servants I'm sure like every section in life there are some lazy ones but using a broad brush statement is not acceptable, you would not get away with it if you referred to a particular race in the same manner. My experience dealing with the Tax Office and DFA, Dublin City Council is the opposite.

Dub Counsel

Friend in Justice confirms it. She says they are still at the planning stage and have not iron out how the pilot will work, when it will start and whether GNIB will co-operate with it. Kind of hoping turkeys will vote for Christmas ! Also no one knows what will happen to the civil servants at the end of the six months.

Who ever does the job at Dublin Airport its an important one, do we want a known terrorist to walk into our country or a child trafficker?
GNIB do a good job there and if they are paid over the mark its a price worth paying.

Justice wants to replace high paid Garda with the lowest paid civil servants possible. Don't think it is a good plan or that it will work. Maybe after six months it will be dropped.

The UKBA are no model to go on. They let people into the UK sometimes without checking passports properly. Be worried as we have a common border with the UK.

G_R

Dub Counsel wrote: »

The UKBA are no model to go on. They let people into the UK sometimes without checking passports properly. Be worried as we have a common border with the UK.

To be fair, the amount of times I've been through Dublin Airport and had my passport just handed back to me with being so much as even looked at at Passport Control is ridiculous.

Jumpy

Do GNIB handle naturalisation requests?

Because 27 months is the current wait. Thats just insane.

Spacedog

Dub Counsel wrote: »

There are thousands of civil servants I'm sure like every section in life there are some lazy ones but using a broad brush statement is not acceptable, you would not get away with it if you referred to a particular race in the same manner. My experience dealing with the Tax Office and DFA, Dublin City Council is the opposite.

This unbiased opinion was brought to you by Dublin City Council.

PCPhoto

its a strange one ... on one hand you want the gardai to get out there and do something more productive than checking passports..or simply waving people through.

but...on the other hand we've heard so many times of the incompetencies within the civil service and the lack of accountability and lack of willingness to remove people who cant/wont do their job from the position.

if only the government could find some other way... maybe take people off the dole and let the current officers train them up to do the job, I'd much rather the jobs went to someone who is eager to be productive (which is not something which is encouraged by the unions in the civil service)

nqemt

DOJ person here,
All of the DOJ staff in the new Border Management Unit all have extensive experience in checking passports, as most of them have been working in the INIS offices around Dublin.
The GNIB will have a reduced staffing because of this, but DOJ in Immiigration offices have the training with some over 10yrs in the job.

muppet01

Hi, has it been set out as to the process of detention/denial of entry?. Will GNIB maintain a presence as authorised officers...?

Terrontress

I always thought that the Dublin Airport arrivals hall needs one Garda only on duty. When someone checking sees an issue they call the Garda over instead of having a Garda check every passport.

The UK Border guys look every inch the cop. Black t-shirts, handcuffs, stab proof vests.

Eru

Current system: Trained Garda checks passport. Refuses entry to person. person become violent and Garda arrests them. 1 person from start to finish.

New system: Garda traines civil servant. Civil servant now required to admin new agency and man passport control. Civil servant in booth checks passport. Refuses entry to person. Person become violent and civil servant must call gardai who will then arrest them. 3 people now.

Will ve about as efficient and time saving as the current system with GISC proved to be and whats worse, people think its a good idea.

First Aid Ireland

Don't the airport have their own police service that they can call if a person gets violent? just like when it happens on a plane? Surely it can't be a regular enough scenario to play a big part in influencing policy.

Seems to me like a waste of time to have gardai looking at passports. I guess we should have invested in an automated system like a lot of other countries when we had the money during the good times.

I think it's a good idea overall, though.

Rawhead

Eru wrote: »

Current system: Trained Garda checks passport. Refuses entry to person. person become violent and Garda arrests them. 1 person from start to finish.

New system: Garda traines civil servant. Civil servant now required to admin new agency and man passport control. Civil servant in booth checks passport. Refuses entry to person. Person become violent and civil servant must call gardai who will then arrest them. 3 people now.

Will ve about as efficient and time saving as the current system with GISC proved to be and whats worse, people think its a good idea.

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

bluetop

Rawhead wrote: »

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

Plus the Country is broke so a saving made is what they are looking for, plus as one poster said they have Airport Police to deal with things in the Airport, let them do their job.
I have noticed over the last couple of weeks lights etc been turned off at stations unlike before they would all be left on, signs of the times savings having to be made all over. !

Eru

Rawhead wrote: »

Current system: Trained doctor administers care in hospital. Patient become violent, doctor calls Gardai and patient arrested.
Trained firefighter arrives at house fire and suspects arson. Firefighters call Gardai.
Trained pilot flies plane. Passenger becomes disruptive. Pilot calls police who arrest passenger.

Your argument: Train Gardai to fly our planes, provide medical coverage in hospitals and put out all our fires etc etc etc in the remote off chance that someone will get violent.

Logical argument: Teach civil servants how to check travel documents and interview people. You now free up 3/4 of Gardai to assist their colleagues on the street and the remaining 1/4 can deal with any cases that are too serious, complex or violent for the civil servants to deal with.

There are numerous things about the CPA that are lunacy and a lot of this modernisation is change for the sake of change, this is one of the few good ideas though and I'm afraid your argument is asinine.

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

First Aid Ireland

Eru wrote: »

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

But presumably the garda on the desk needs to call other gardai to remove the person he's just arrested? or do the lads on the desk have a car on site to remove them on their own to the station?

Also, gardai get frequently called to A+E to deal with aggressive patients. Security deal with some of them. But I've certainly been with patients where the gardai needed to be called in.

An Udaras

Eru wrote: »

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

Just to confirm a warranted officer of a state airports Police Services are not Not Security Guards for guidance please refer yourself to the Private Security Act 2004 which is the act which governs Private Security/Security Guards in Ireland which specifically excludes Authorised Officers/Airport Police from its remit.

The Airport Police Service provide frontline policing to the state airports and operate generally under their own legislation i.e. the Aviation & Airport Acts 1936 -2004. If you don't know about a profession please don't try and degrade it by uneducated assumptions.

The APS and GNIB have a very positive working relationship. Members of Airport Police are recognised in the courts as Police Officer in their own rights as they carry out the function of such and are issued with warrant cards and have their own statute powers to Stop & Search, Detain & Question and Arrest within their own legislation as well as "Any person arrests" for arrestable offences or others under common law.

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process for the DPP etc.. once the APS have completed their custody process.

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

Who has the local knowledge? Who's trained to operate airside? Who will respond to an incident faster? Day to Day policing in state airports is the responsibility of the Airport Police. Gardai have enough of a battle on their hands with serious crime in the cities and around the country.

Immigration has never been taken seriously in this country how many times have each of us been simply waived through immigration cause we simply looked Irish enough.. maybe a new direction in Immigration policing may improve and tighten our borders.

Rawhead

Eru wrote: »

That would be true if Gardai arrested and removed violent patients but they don't, instead security babysit them. Gardai only babysit patients that were already in Garda custody.

What percentage of fires are arson compared to people refused entry becoming violent?

Remember, each person refused and arrested takes a Garda. Its not realistic to say one Garda as he / she would be gone with the very first prisoner therefore needing another one to replace that Garda.

You will end up with more people costing the tax payer more money dealing with the same number of issues and people, simple as.

And airport police are security guards not police, they still need to call Gardai to deal with whatever happens inside the airport.

What percentage of people passing through immigration are detained?
Of those people how many are violent?
How big of a deal is it to spend 4 weeks training people to check for forged or altered documents?
If they have a problem then they call the Garda on duty, he/she decides if the case needs further investigation.
20 booths staffed by 20 civil servants on €35k per year with 5 Gardai and a sergeant on duty.
vs
20 booths staffed by 20 Gardai + 2 sergeants on €55-60k per year.

It's not rocket science and by your argument then we might as well replace all the traffic lights with Gardai on point duty as they could be ready to deal with an accident if it happens.

The old joey's might be only security guards but they can help deal with the rampant lunatics that seem to kick off constantly in the immigration hall.

kub

An Udaras wrote: »

Just to confirm a warranted officer of a state airports Police Services are not Not Security Guards for guidance please refer yourself to the Private Security Act 2004 which is the act which governs Private Security/Security Guards in Ireland which specifically excludes Authorised Officers/Airport Police from its remit.

The Airport Police Service provide frontline policing to the state airports and operate generally under their own legislation i.e. the Aviation & Airport Acts 1936 -2004. If you don't know about a profession please don't try and degrade it by uneducated assumptions.

The APS and GNIB have a very positive working relationship. Members of Airport Police are recognised in the courts as Police Officer in their own rights as they carry out the function of such and are issued with warrant cards and have their own statute powers to Stop & Search, Detain & Question and Arrest within their own legislation as well as "Any person arrests" for arrestable offences or others under common law.

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process for the DPP etc.. once the APS have completed their custody process.

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

Who has the local knowledge? Who's trained to operate airside? Who will respond to an incident faster? Day to Day policing in state airports is the responsibility of the Airport Police. Gardai have enough of a battle on their hands with serious crime in the cities and around the country.

Immigration has never been taken seriously in this country how many times have each of us been simply waived through immigration cause we simply looked Irish enough.. maybe a new direction in Immigration policing may improve and tighten our borders.

Just wondering so, would a member of the Airport Police have the power to stop Gardai from entering the airside of an airport in the event of a pursuit? Especially when the vehicle being pursued has already entered that area?

Elessar

There will always be Gardai in Dublin Airport. AFAIK, by law the airport must have an armed presence. From talking to the guards there it seems the DOJ will come in full time and replace 90% of them, but there will always be at least one guard on duty at all times (a sergeant IIRC).

Nothing has happened as of yet though, I certainly haven't seen any DOJ staff in T2 yet.

An Udaras

@Elessar they have definitely been in T2 so far.

@Kub im afraid I cannot really answer your question, but I can direct you to the cork hijack incident on YouTube and just remind you the Airport Police are just another agency that would support and operate alongside the Gardai in response any incident on their patch.

Eru

kub wrote: »

Just wondering so, would a member of the Airport Police have the power to stop Gardai from entering the airside of an airport in the event of a pursuit? Especially when the vehicle being pursued has already entered that area?

Would a privately employed authorised officer to use their correct term (which carries no power of arrest, detention or investigation higher than a citizens arrest) stop the national police force from effecting an arrest? No, there may be health and safety issues but of course they cant.

An Udaras wrote: »

@Elessar they have definitely been in T2 so far.

@Kub im afraid I cannot really answer your question, but I can direct you to the cork hijack incident on YouTube and just remind you the Airport Police are just another agency that would support and operate alongside the Gardai in response any incident on their patch.

They have no 'patch' because they arent police. Instead they are employed by the DAA to offer security within airports similar to the security in a bank or on the Luas, etc. They have a power of arrest no higher than you do but they can issue a fine for certain minor offences which you can completely ignore and not pay.

An Udaras wrote: »

In Dublin, the Gardai are certainly not called to deal with everything? I'd love to see some substance to this accusation but maybe thats for another thread. Airport Police transfer over a prisoner to the AGS from their custody for charging and to process

AP have no power of detention, custody or prosecution. None whatseover so this comment shows you dont really know the issue. They only have powers under the air navigation act which allows them to detain people pending garda arrival ONLY.

An Udaras wrote: »

ERU i am unsure of your knowledge of the in's and outs of day to day policing of specialized transport infrastructure such as an International Airport but who do you think Customs,Airlines,Airport Staff,Passengers other emergency services calls for assistance within the airport when their in trouble? Gardai or Airport Police?

I know from being a Garda in Dublin airport that they call the actual police to deal with crime. Your comment suggests that because a shop calls security for a shoplifter ahead of Gardai that this gives security some form of authority, it doesn't.

An Udaras wrote: »

In time if Gardai are replaced by Civilians then I can hazard a guess that in a emergency who they'll be calling first...

They should call the people with the power to actually arrest and prosecute the matter however I would assume people like yourself would call the AP as they dont understand the difference. If your suggesting the AP detain people abd dont call Gardai then your making an allegation of wrongful arrest and false imprisonment.

Interestingly, what your suggesting is that we will have a scenario where a refused person is now taking up a civil servant, a AP and a Garda to deal with them instead of 1 Garda.

Rawhead wrote: »

What percentage of people passing through immigration are detained?
Of those people how many are violent?
How big of a deal is it to spend 4 weeks training people to check for forged or altered documents?
If they have a problem then they call the Garda on duty, he/she decides if the case needs further investigation.
20 booths staffed by 20 civil servants on €35k per year with 5 Gardai and a sergeant on duty.
vs
20 booths staffed by 20 Gardai + 2 sergeants on €55-60k per year.

It's not rocket science and by your argument then we might as well replace all the traffic lights with Gardai on point duty as they could be ready to deal with an accident if it happens.

The old joey's might be only security guards but they can help deal with the rampant lunatics that seem to kick off constantly in the immigration hall.

so in the first part, theres little issues and Gardai arent needed but at the end the place is full of fighting lunatics 24/7. Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department.

Its ok if you don't believe me but this is just number moving by the government to try and look like they aren't eroding policing in this country while also managing to save money. Because after all, its not like the recruitment freeze and budget cuts have had a negative effect on the health system, schools and police stations is it?

Oh and there is a Garda station inside the airport by the way folks, prisoners are very easily walked across from arrivals.

An Udaras

You have a complete mis-understanding of their role and powers and if as you say you are a Garda and have served in the airport you should at least have had a understanding of the powers of the Airport Police and that of the Aviation & Airports Acts which incorporates their police powers under the various Air Navigation & Transport Acts.

Your post does not warrant response not only because I would be off the topic of Guards being replaced by civilians but it's so full of inaccuracies it's scary.

Ha and good one advising board members not to pay fines issued by the Airport Police which they are statutorily empowered to issue when enforcing Section 15 of the state airport act 2004. Sure a person only risks a prosecution then by the Polis for not paying. Well done you..

Rawhead

Eru wrote: »

so in the first part, theres little issues and Gardai arent needed but at the end the place is full of fighting lunatics 24/7. Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department.

Its ok if you don't believe me but this is just number moving by the government to try and look like they aren't eroding policing in this country while also managing to save money. Because after all, its not like the recruitment freeze and budget cuts have had a negative effect on the health system, schools and police stations is it?

Oh and there is a Garda station inside the airport by the way folks, prisoners are very easily walked across from arrivals.

Sarcasm my friend, sarcasm.

If you want to believe that having a Garda sitting in a booth for 8 hours looking at passports is a good use of resources then there is no point in arguing with you.

Must watch my back next time I'm passing through south central arrivals.

Eru

An Udaras wrote: »

You have a complete mis-understanding of their role and powers and if as you say you are a Garda and have served in the airport you should at least have had a understanding of the powers of the Airport Police and that of the Aviation & Airports Acts which incorporates their police powers under the various Air Navigation & Transport Acts.

Your post does not warrant response not only because I would be off the topic of Guards being replaced by civilians but it's so full of inaccuracies it's scary.

Ha and good one advising board members not to pay fines issued by the Airport Police which they are statutorily empowered to issue when enforcing Section 15 of the state airport act 2004. Sure a person only risks a prosecution then by the Polis for not paying. Well done you..

If your so sure your right, post a thread quoting their powers and the exact section of law, its pretty easy to do, here it is: Section 33, Air navigation act 1988. I direct your attention to section 1,B which carries no power of arrest for refusing to give your name and address nor a power of detention meaning I can turn around and walk away.

Also section 2 which speaks for itself concerning their prosecution ability.

They are security with slightly and I do mean slightly, more powers than my grandmother.

civdef

Eru wrote: »

If your so sure your right, post a thread quoting their powers and the exact section of law, its pretty easy to do, here it is: Section 33, Air navigation act 1988. I direct your attention to section 1,B which carries no power of arrest for refusing to give your name and address nor a power of detention meaning I can turn around and walk away.

What about 1(c) which does confer a power of arrest without warrant for the above?

The powers of arrest in 1(d) are also way above anything a member of the public has.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1988/en/act/pub/0015/sec0033.html#sec33
amended by:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0024/sec0043.html

An Udaras

Jayus man,

Section 1 (a) states that an Airport Police Officer who is empowered as a Authorised Officer may:

(a) stop, detain for such time as is reasonably necessary for the exercise of any of his powers under this section, and search any person or vehicle on an aerodrome;

Detain being the obvious word there.

(Back to original topic) May I ask any of our Norn Iron friend is it the PSNI or The UK Border Agency that conducts this role up their in their airports? Just curious of their situation?

kub

Lets have a little bit of respect here for AGS members. Personally speaking as a civilian, I have the upmost respect for them.

Now when it comes to AP, I in all honesty had no idea of whatever 'powers' they were given by some law passed by a failed Irish government.
Having said that and as a law abiding citizen, I have no issue whatsoever with these guys.

But lets face it, AP are not Gardai and I as a citizen will only ever consider AP as glorified security guards. Please let me take this opportunity to apologise to anyone which this comment may offend.

Its just that in my job I come across quite a lot of security guards, in general the vast majority are sound, but I do not know if it is boredom or what, but I have to say quite a lot suffer from a Walter Mitty type synderome.

There is only one real Police service in this country and we all know who that is.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

Decide which you believe then come back to me but your missing the point I am making, your not replacing the Garda with a civil servant, your replacing him with a civil servant who earns almost as much and support personnel you earn almost as much in the new department..

Look at this slightly differently - a Garda is being replaced by a civil servant. The civil servant will have a longer working career and not be in receipt of the myriad of allowances potentially paid to the Garda.

A new category of staff in a revamped position allows the Department to break away from custom and practice which will end in cost savings. Such a change will also allow the Department to put more Gardai out on the streets of our towns and cities.

roisinsotoole

kub wrote: »

Lets have a little bit of respect here for AGS members. Personally speaking as a civilian, I have the upmost respect for them.

Now when it comes to AP, I in all honesty had no idea of whatever 'powers' they were given by some law passed by a failed Irish government.
Having said that and as a law abiding citizen, I have no issue whatsoever with these guys.

But lets face it, AP are not Gardai and I as a citizen will only ever consider AP as glorified security guards. Please let me take this opportunity to apologise to anyone which this comment may offend.

Its just that in my job I come across quite a lot of security guards, in general the vast majority are sound, but I do not know if it is boredom or what, but I have to say quite a lot suffer from a Walter Mitty type synderome.

There is only one real Police service in this country and we all know who that is.

Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..

kub

roisinsotoole wrote: »

Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..

What more quangos? Lets look at the bigger picture here, a population of 4 million, with the adult percentage dropping. Infairness as a country we have the same population as Manchester, lets consider that.

AGS have various specialised units, some of which accumulate intelligence on criminals. Both I am sure home grown and foreign, with I would imagine the assistance of Interpol.

Personally speaking, I would prefer a Garda doing this job. Someone who has been trained and has the experience in dealing with low life.

Savman

FWIW, there are a number of airports in Europe already using Electronic scanners (for EU citizens only). Faro in Portugal and Frankfurt in Germany are two I can think of.

Clearly the vast majority of arriving passengers are intra-EU so the passport check is a complete waste of Garda and airport resources. The new machines can do the job, halving the overall workload. Obviously there are still a number of manned desks for non-EU (or when the machines don't play nice) but it's a system that works well IMHO.

As for who should be responsible for Border Control itself, not so sure about the Civil Servant idea personally, surely the time and cost involved in training the personnel and implementing this would be counter productive especially considering the GNIB are already in place. OTOH if it saves the Govt coffers a few million to get the Gardai onto other duties and train a whole new batch of staff then it will be done regardless of what anyone has to say about it. That's simply the IMF-based economics by which the country is now run tbh.

But hey as a passenger, if it speeds up the bloody process I'll be happy either way.

parsi

I used a self-service machine last year in Gatwick and it was quite slow -hopefully they will speed up as they become tweaked.

There isn't any inherent reason that a civil servant couldn't perform the task. It is a bit senseless that a Garda who has received full training in Templemore is then assigned to the airport sitting in a booth performing a very specific task. It would make more sense to train up a civil servant for this particular task. Remember that both Revenue and Social Welfare have investigative staff well used to the concept of analysing documents and questioning folk within a legal framework and indeed are used to dealing with (and being attacked by) lowlife.

roisinsotoole

kub wrote: »

roisinsotoole wrote: »

Sometimes that is the problem AGS police everything in this country, we need seperate agencies in some areas like immigration..

What more quangos? Lets look at the bigger picture here, a population of 4 million, with the adult percentage dropping. Infairness as a country we have the same population as Manchester, lets consider that.

AGS have various specialised units, some of which accumulate intelligence on criminals. Both I am sure home grown and foreign, with I would imagine the assistance of Interpol.

Personally speaking, I would prefer a Garda doing this job. Someone who has been trained and has the experience in dealing with low life.

No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion

parsi

roisinsotoole wrote: »

No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..

Customs are part of Revenue and are civil servants.

roisinsotoole

parsi wrote: »

roisinsotoole wrote: »

No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..

Customs are part of Revenue and are civil servants.

Exactly

parsi

One thing to remember is that via legislation any power can be moved or added.

If it suited a corporation employee could be given the right to ticket illegal parkers.

If it suited a social welfare inspector could be legislated to carry a gun.

Remember that guards carry out duties ranging for stamping forms, directing match traffic , patrolling the streets, ignoring one-eyed drivers, shooting fish in a barrel, investigating organized crime, meeting bankers on the golf course.

Each Garda is different and has different skills and roles. I doubt that yer man directing GAA traffic would be able to spot a forged passport (especially when they admit they can't spot a forged GAA permit).

Eru

parsi wrote: »

Look at this slightly differently - a Garda is being replaced by a civil servant. The civil servant will have a longer working career and not be in receipt of the myriad of allowances potentially paid to the Garda.

A new category of staff in a revamped position allows the Department to break away from custom and practice which will end in cost savings. Such a change will also allow the Department to put more Gardai out on the streets of our towns and cities.

If you wish to look at it like that the first thing you need do is actually compare the income of both when you consider the hours required. Gardai have different contracts to civil servants when it comes to hours of employment and payments for same. A simple example which will factor in here is weekends, nights and public holidays. How much does a civil servant get paid for working on a bank holiday compared to a Garda? You seem to believe that Gardai claim a whole shopping list of allowances that will not be claimed by a civil servant who is put in the the same working hours. I doubt that's accurate to be honest. Plus if its dept of Justice staff, what do their contracts actually oblige them to work? Can they be ordered to work their days off if there's insufficient staff numbers?

Civil servants earned 36,000 starting in 2008 compared to Gardai at 27,000 after training. Thats making each civil servant 9 thousand more expensive than the Garda they are replacing. If they replace 10 Gardai thats 90,000 or at least 3 additional Gardai. Of course allowances for working unsociable hours aren't as easy to find for civil servants as Gardai but that's mainly because it doesn't form a basic condition of their working week. With that in mine I would expect it to be higher.

You also mentioned career but the only issue there is the cost of training for the job in front of them as they are paid per week, not per career. Lets just say for now that its a 1 week course (I believe its less but for arguements sake). Both civil servants and Gardai are paid a set hourly rate based on a set week. Gardai its 40 and I assume its the same for civil servants. what different does it make if that person works for 30 years or 40 in the same job? Training 4 Gardai compared to training 3 civil servant over 120 years equals a saving of what? 800 euro?

Your third point about breaking away equaling savings requires an explanation, why do you assume this? What system do you think has failed so terrible?

and 4th, I genuinely dont believe it will result in more Gardai on the street. Theres less than 20 employed in Dublin airport as immigration officers and I believe that at least half will need to be retained to perform the Garda side of all of this. Take away those that will probable just retire instead of going back to walking the beat at 55 years of age and there will be no additional officers but instead of 20 people dealing with immigration there will be 30 with 10 less public sector emplyees.

If people really and genuinely want to get Gardai out of the airport then lets do it properly. Instead of making yet another department with its administration and bureaucracy that comes with them why not merge and beef some up?

Make the airport police a genuine fully authorised police force. With full responsibility for immigration, security and policing of all airports upto and including investigating and prosecuting the crimes committed. Perhaps go the whole hog and replace customs inside the airport with these lads as well thereby removing the need for police / Gardai to take over cases from customs and make it a national thing like a transport police.

1 agency instead of 4 or 5 and trained, equipped and empowered to do the job properly.

(I will return to the current AP and their powers in a separate thread)

Eru

roisinsotoole wrote: »

No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion

You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?

roisinsotoole

Eru wrote: »

roisinsotoole wrote: »

No more quangos I agree but use serving civil servants for the more minor areas of policing, like customs..The UK have many depts re intelligence but they are not police officers.. It's good to have an officer of any sort dedicated to one area.. Just an opinion

You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?

Maybe not criminal cases but Im sure they prosecute for custom offences?

Eru

roisinsotoole wrote: »

Maybe not criminal cases but Im sure they prosecute for custom offences?

We will put a pin in that one as well and revisit in a separate thread.

parsi

Eru wrote: »

If you wish to look at it like that the first thing you need do is actually compare the income of both when you consider the hours required. Gardai have different contracts to civil servants when it comes to hours of employment and payments for same. A simple example which will factor in here is weekends, nights and public holidays. How much does a civil servant get paid for working on a bank holiday compared to a Garda? You seem to believe that Gardai claim a whole shopping list of allowances that will not be claimed by a civil servant who is put in the the same working hours. I doubt that's accurate to be honest. Plus if its dept of Justice staff, what do their contracts actually oblige them to work? Can they be ordered to work their days off if there's insufficient staff numbers?

That's my point - creating a new role will result in new terms and conditions and an ideal opportunity to do away with overtime and allowances

eru wrote:

Civil servants earned 36,000 starting in 2008 compared to Gardai at 27,000 after training. Thats making each civil servant 9 thousand more expensive than the Garda they are replacing. If they replace 10 Gardai thats 90,000 or at least 3 additional Gardai. Of course allowances for working unsociable hours aren't as easy to find for civil servants as Gardai but that's mainly because it doesn't form a basic condition of their working week. With that in mine I would expect it to be higher.

A bit simplistic there - the CO salary starts at around 23k. We both know that whoever ends up there won't be on the bottom of their scale.

eru wrote:

You also mentioned career but the only issue there is the cost of training for the job in front of them as they are paid per week, not per career. Lets just say for now that its a 1 week course (I believe its less but for arguements sake). Both civil servants and Gardai are paid a set hourly rate based on a set week. Gardai its 40 and I assume its the same for civil servants. what different does it make if that person works for 30 years or 40 in the same job? Training 4 Gardai compared to training 3 civil servant over 120 years equals a saving of what? 800 euro?

They'll get 10 extra years out of a civil servant.

eru wrote:

Your third point about breaking away equaling savings requires an explanation, why do you assume this? What system do you think has failed so terrible?

I'm not saying the system has failed but it is a waste of a highly trained police officer to be sitting in a booth looking at passports.

eru wrote:

and 4th, I genuinely dont believe it will result in more Gardai on the street. Theres less than 20 employed in Dublin airport as immigration officers and I believe that at least half will need to be retained to perform the Garda side of all of this. Take away those that will probable just retire instead of going back to walking the beat at 55 years of age and there will be no additional officers but instead of 20 people dealing with immigration there will be 30 with 10 less public sector emplyees.

Those guys would be retiring at some stage anyway unless the booth has mystical powers of longetivity..

eru wrote:

If people really and genuinely want to get Gardai out of the airport then lets do it properly. Instead of making yet another department with its administration and bureaucracy that comes with them why not merge and beef some up?

Doesn't need to be another department - it can come under the remit of justice.

eru wrote:

Make the airport police a genuine fully authorised police force. With full responsibility for immigration, security and policing of all airports upto and including investigating and prosecuting the crimes committed. Perhaps go the whole hog and replace customs inside the airport with these lads as well thereby removing the need for police / Gardai to take over cases from customs and make it a national thing like a transport police.

1 agency instead of 4 or 5 and trained, equipped and empowered to do the job properly.

(I will return to the current AP and their powers in a separate thread)

Good ideas there. A lot of folk have called for a transport police force. There is merit in the idea of specialised forces.

goldie fish

Eru wrote: »

You do realise that Customs don't prosecute criminal cases don't you?

Wthe Revenue solicitor does.

Eru

goldie fish wrote: »

Wthe Revenue solicitor does.

They have nothing to do with customs officers working in the airport and therefore my point stands. Customs officers hand all cases and prisoners to AGS for prosecution and act as witnesses only. The revenue solicitor prosecutes criminal tax cases ie evasion and fraud.

parsi wrote: »

That's my point - creating a new role will result in new terms and conditions and an ideal opportunity to do away with overtime and allowances

People that work Christmas day, St Patricks day, weekends, night and other holidays are entitled to and very much deserve to be paid extra. I don't see why replacing one Garda for one civil servant would result on no overtime though. Once they hit 40 hours they get paid extra and rightly so.

parsi wrote: »

They'll get 10 extra years out of a civil servant

unless were comparing toasters, that offers no financial saving worth mentioning.

Other than that we agree, to make this work it should all fall under the one agency with the power to deal with the issues they encounter.

Terrontress

I have been through the airport many times but have never seen these 24/7 lunatics which are referred to.

When they start to behave in a lunatic manner, do the Gardaí all come out of their booths to calm them down?