Help! Can I get my apartment back from renters

Corkgirl210

Hi

Moved in with bf.. we just broke up.. can i get my apt back.. I gave tenants a 6mth lease and they are there 1 month.. can i give them 35 day notice (6 mth lease)

I used a topfloor.ie lease?

I am currenly homeless (well staying in a friends).. can this be done or do i have to wait until lease is up?

any help appreciated?

blah

Would you consider offering them an incentive to move on? e.g. 1 month's rent free?

odds_on

If it's a FIXED TERM lease for six months - no chance of moving them unless (as blah says) you can buy out the lease from them. However, they are in the driver's seat and can command the terms of any buy-out.

Victor

It may be difficult.

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

I used a topfloor.ie lease?

From here? http://www.topfloor.ie/lease.php

Was it a part 4 or a Fixed Term?

What did you agree regarding notice / break clause?

Corkgirl210

hi

thanks for replies peeps...

it was 6 month lease fixed term... literally printed off topfloor lease and signed it... it does say in the landlords act that the lease relates to, that you must give tenants 35 day notice for 6 mth contract...

so i persume i can ask them to vacate?

not even wrong

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

it was 6 month lease fixed term... literally printed off topfloor lease and signed it... it does say in the landlords act that the lease relates to, that you must give tenants 35 day notice for 6 mth contract...

The Residential Tenancies Act does not say that, you have misinterpreted it.

so i persume i can ask them to vacate?

You can certainly ask them...

odds_on

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

hi

thanks for replies peeps...

it was 6 month lease fixed term... literally printed off topfloor lease and signed it... it does say in the landlords act that the lease relates to, that you must give tenants 35 day notice for 6 mth contract...

so i persume i can ask them to vacate?

Have you registered the tenancy with the PRTB?

Can you quote what it says about the 35 days notice, please. Under a Fixed Term lease, I don't know of anything. And if you succeed in forcing the issue for them to leave, you may find yourself with a claim for illegal eviction and possibly a fine in the region of 5,000 euros.

You can ask them, but be careful or you may find yourself with a claim for harassment.

aN.Droid

Unless they are really nice or you buy them out it isn't likely. Why can't you rent elsewhere with the cash they are giving you?

mathepac

OP, is this what you need?

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

"Rights as a landlord - You have the right to:

• Set the rent (although the rent cannot be more than the current market rate. See Rent Increases in Ireland)
• Receive the correct rent on the date it is due
• Receive any charges associated with the property (this means taxes and duties or payments)
• Review the rent annually
• Terminate a tenancy without giving a reason during the first six months ...

"

DaireQuinlan

mathepac wrote: »

OP, is this what you need?

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/landlords_rights_and_obligations.html

"Rights as a landlord - You have the right to:

• Set the rent (although the rent cannot be more than the current market rate. See Rent Increases in Ireland)
• Receive the correct rent on the date it is due
• Receive any charges associated with the property (this means taxes and duties or payments)
• Review the rent annually
• Terminate a tenancy without giving a reason during the first six months ...

"

Not if there's a fixed term lease in place, which in this case there seems to be. From the lease ...

lease wrote:

4. Landlord Covenants
4.1 Provided that the Tenant shall pay the Rent and perform the covenants on his part already referred to, the Landlord shall permit the Tenant to have quiet enjoyment of the property during the Term agreed without interruption by the Landlord or the Landlord's Agent.

There are specific break terms in the lease, pertaining to the residential tenancies act:

lease wrote:

2. The Landlord may terminate this Tenancy Agreement due to anti-social behaviour by the Tenant (or the Tenant allowing such behaviour) within the dwelling. Anti-social behaviour within the dwelling includes behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence, causes fear, danger, injury, damage or loss, or includes violence, intimidation, coercion, harassment, obstruction or threats. It also includes persistent behaviour that prevents or interferes with the peaceful occupation of other dwellings within the building or in its vicinity. The Notice Period for such a Termination by the Landlord is 28 days or 7 days in the case of a more serious breach.
3. The Landlord may terminate this Tenancy Agreement for non payment of rent. A 14 day Service of Notice will issue demanding full and immediate payment. Failure by the Tenant to comply will result in a 28 day Notice Of Termination by the Landlord.
4. The Landlord may terminate this Tenancy Agreement for any un-remedied breach of Covenant by the Tenant. The Notice Period for such a Termination by the Landlord is 28 days.

So unless the OP has agreed a break clause in the lease then they'll have to negotiate with the tenants to get them to agree to some solution. I'd be prepared to offer some sort of compensation and allow them whatever time they need to make the move. I understand that your personal circumstances have changed for the worst, but the tenants don't give a flying fiddlers about your personal circumstances, all they (quite correctly) will care about is the massive inconvenience of being asked to move a month after going through the hassle of house hunting and moving in the first place.

Zamboni

Further evidence that there should be a landlord licence.

andre2010

100% NO,

Under a normal lease, the landlord can ask the tenants to vacate within 6 months with 30 days notice, but a fixed term lease is different.

You cannot under any circumstances get them to move out unless both parties agree.

as a previous poster said, why dont you rent somewhere else while you are waiting on the lease to finish. To be honest, I think its horrible to even ask them. I hate that about landlords, they take the easier option regardless of how the screw other people over.

Not saying thats what you are doing by any means, but if your only wanting to move back cause you broke up with your boyfriend and dont feel like looking for a new place then you are screwing them over! You have their rent, find somewhere else.

Ray Palmer

Zamboni wrote: »

Further evidence that there should be a landlord licence.

That's a bit harsh, the personal circumstances of the OP have changed and they want to know information. They aren't kicking anybody out they want to know what if anything they can do.

El Weirdo

andre2010 wrote: »

You cannot under any circumstances get them to move out unless both parties agree.

Well, if they have broken the terms of the lease she can serve them notice to quit.

This is clearly not the case here, though.

Zamboni

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, the personal circumstances of the OP have changed and they want to know information. They aren't kicking anybody out they want to know what if anything they can do.

It is not harsh.
Anybody who wants to be a landlord should know this information prior to being a landlord.
A basic exam and a licence should apply.

OS119

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, the personal circumstances of the OP have changed and they want to know information. They aren't kicking anybody out they want to know what if anything they can do.

while i have some sympathy with that view - the only dumb questions are the one's you don't ask - its more than just a little frightening that a business owner, using an asset worth probably €200,000, didn't understand one of the most basic, Landord 101, rules of letting.

it is, sadly, an illustration of the widespread but mistaken belief that owning a property (or, more likely, owning 5% of a property and being up to your arse in mortgage payments) gives you the right to print money at other peoples expence, with no risks and no responsibilities.

so yes, perhaps a landlord licence isn't such a bad idea...

I am pie

It does seem like the OP was a little under prepared for being a landlord in terms of understanding what it meant. T

hat said it's a very difficult situation they find themselves in. Your best bet really might be to politely offer them a free month rent and a guaranteed full deposit refund (any breakages excluded !) while they look. You have to think that 1 month or 2 month free would be better than having to launch into a rental contract yourself while waiting for the place back.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable to expect to be able to tell the tenants they have to leave in 35 days after the effort and expense they went to in finding a place to live and moving their stuff in.

Corkgirl210

Thanks for your replies..


1. i would not ask them to leave

2. i would offer compensation

3. i was just asking as a way of information - even if a bit panicked yesterday ,

4. I am in alternative accomodation, using my money... (athough I am not benefiting from renting.. i am actually paying out more!)

5. I will advise my situation and offer compensation but if not, i will just have to wait..

I am with prtb...

Harsh lesson to be learned from trusting someone!... guess people are not like me and I shouldnt expect them to be.. hence didnt give the lease a second thought... I am not driven by money... unfortunately for me...

Penguino

Fixed term or no fixed term, either the landlord or the tenant can withdraw from a lease within the first six months by giving 28 days notice.

Tenants do it all the time, why can't landlords?

odds_on

Penguino wrote: »

Fixed term or no fixed term, either the landlord or the tenant can withdraw from a lease within the first six months by giving 28 days notice.

Tenants do it all the time, why can't landlords?

A Fixed Term lease cannot legally be broken within the first six months (unless there is a break clause) by giving 28 days notice. This only applies to a Part 4 lease.

With a Fixed Term lease, the tenant who wants to leave (at any time during the term of the lease) has the option of "assigning" the remainder of his lease to another party. The landlord has the option of approving or refusing the new tenant after his vetting process. Though, I don't know of many tenants who vet their landlord before signing a lease. Perhaps more tenants should ask for references from previous tenants??

Basically, a Fixed Term lease provides the tenant with security of tenure for the duration of the fixed term. Likewise, the landlord has a reasonable chance that the tenancy will continue for the full term - avoiding the necessity and expense of looking for a new tenant for a year (generally). However, the landlord has no get out clause similar to the tenant assigning the lease.

Lemming

I am pie wrote: »

Your best bet really might be to politely offer them a free month rent and a guaranteed full deposit refund (any breakages excluded !) while they look.

(The bold is my emphasis).

Not meaning to nit pick, but if there are no breakages, etc. then why aren't you returning the full deposit as is meant to be the case? Why feel the need to suggest promising the tenant something that you [the Landlord] are meant to do anyway?

If a landlord said something like that to me, I'd be steering well clear of the warning signs that they consider a tenants deposit to be "their money".

Corkgirl210

Notice of TerminationAs stated above, the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants. During the three and a half year period the landlord can only terminate the tenancy on specified grounds.
Acceptable grounds include the

• tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent)
• landlord intending to sell the dwelling
• landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member

However, please note that if a fixed term tenancy exists it cannot under any circumstances be terminated before the expiry of the term, unless the landlord or the tenant is in serious breach of the agreement. Please contact Threshold if you have any query about these rules.
The landlord must also give the tenant written notice of termination. The period of notice will depend on the duration of the tenancy.
Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord

• Less than 6 months 28 days
• 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
• 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
• 2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
• 3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
• 4 or more years 112 days
  
  
  IF LANDLORD REQUIRES IT FOR THEIR OWN DWELLING.. OR A FAMILY MEMBER... IT IS ALLOWABLE
  
  
  

nibtrix

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

Notice of TerminationAs stated above, the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants. During the three and a half year period the landlord can only terminate the tenancy on specified grounds.
Acceptable grounds include the

• tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent)
• landlord intending to sell the dwelling
• landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member

However, please note that if a fixed term tenancy exists it cannot under any circumstances be terminated before the expiry of the term, unless the landlord or the tenant is in serious breach of the agreement. Please contact Threshold if you have any query about these rules.
The landlord must also give the tenant written notice of termination. The period of notice will depend on the duration of the tenancy.
Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord

• Less than 6 months 28 days
• 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
• 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
• 2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
• 3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
• 4 or more years 112 days
  
  
  IF LANDLORD REQUIRES IT FOR THEIR OWN DWELLING.. OR A FAMILY MEMBER... IT IS ALLOWABLE
  
  
  

Did you even read what you quoted?!? The relevant part was even highlighted in bold - if a fixed term tenancy exists it cannot under any circumstances be terminated before the expiry of the term, unless the landlord or the tenant is in serious breach of the agreement.

A landlord requiring the dwelling for themselves does not constitute a "serious breach of the agreement".

OS119

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

IF LANDLORD REQUIRES IT FOR THEIR OWN DWELLING.. OR A FAMILY MEMBER... IT IS ALLOWABLE

OP, this may sound harsh, but if thats the level of attention you normally pay to legal contracts, then its no wonder you're in trouble.

you could even be bothered to get half way down the document that you quoted to discover that it doesn't apply to you.

odds_on

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

Notice of TerminationAs stated above, the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 affords greater security of tenure to tenants. During the three and a half year period the landlord can only terminate the tenancy on specified grounds.
Acceptable grounds include the

• tenant not complying with their obligations (e.g. not paying their rent)
• landlord intending to sell the dwelling
• landlord requiring the dwelling for his own occupation or for a family member

However, please note that if a fixed term tenancy exists it cannot under any circumstances be terminated before the expiry of the term, unless the landlord or the tenant is in serious breach of the agreement. Please contact Threshold if you have any query about these rules.
The landlord must also give the tenant written notice of termination. The period of notice will depend on the duration of the tenancy.
Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord

• Less than 6 months 28 days
• 6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
• 1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
• 2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
• 3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
• 4 or more years 112 days
  
  
  IF LANDLORD REQUIRES IT FOR THEIR OWN DWELLING.. OR A FAMILY MEMBER... IT IS ALLOWABLE
  
  

Those lines which I have highlighted in red and in bold refer only to PART 4 tenancy agreements. They do not refer to a Fixed Term agreement.

Sorry, but I can not make it any clearer than that.

Tigger

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, the personal circumstances of the OP have changed and they want to know information. They aren't kicking anybody out they want to know what if anything they can do.

if she could she'd give them five weeks notice as a chrimbo pressie ffs

Posy

Hi OP, sorry to hear about your circumstances.
To me, it just sounds like 'Happy Christmas- oh- broke up with my boyfriend, get out of the apartment.' If they've been there just a month and you gave them 35 days notice, it's only a difference of just over 3 months; surely it's better to find somewhere to stay for three months than do that to the tenants a fortnight to Christmas.

If they signed a 6 month lease and wanted to leave after a month, I'm sure you'd be quoting your rights and refusing to return the deposit.
Obviously it's up to the OP as to what to do, but in my opinion, there's only one decent thing and it's fulfilling your part of the deal, making it clear to the others involved that you won't be renewing the lease after the time allocated so they at least know where they stand.

bobbysands81

Rayanne2010,

Given the differences of opinion on this thread I would most definitely meet with a solicitor and get their advice before carrying out any further actions.

Best of luck in the future.

nibtrix

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Rayanne2010,

Given the differences of opinion on this thread I would most definitely meet with a solicitor and get their advice before carrying out any further actions.

Best of luck in the future.

I think the only difference of opinion is between the OP, saying that it is legal to evict the tenants as they need the place for themselves, and everyone else saying that with a fixed term lease that is not possible.

The OP doesn't need to waste money on a solicitor, they need to suck it up and find somewhere to live until the tenants six month lease is up. As the OP knows they won't be extending the lease they could be very kind and let the tenants know soon after Christmas so they have as much time as possible to find a new place.

They can of course ASK the tenants to move out as soon as possible, possibly offering them compensation in some form, but to demand it would be foolish, not to mention extremely rude!

Icepick

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Rayanne2010,

Given the differences of opinion on this thread I would most definitely meet with a solicitor and get their advice before carrying out any further actions.

Best of luck in the future.

there are no differences
She can't break it.

The_Conductor

Ok guys, I seriously think I need to make a sticky thread detailing what a fixed term lease and what a Part 4 tenancy are. The number of people posting misleading information (in good faith) on this thread is startling- thankyou to everyone who corrected them.

OP- I am genuinely sorry for your situation- and glad that you've managed to find alternate accommodation so quickly. Its obvious you want to do this entirely above board- the first step is to sit down and talk to the tenants. Its possible they may be prepared to vacate the lease, who knows......

Best wishes,

Shane

xper

nibtrix wrote: »

As the OP knows they won't be extending the lease they could be very kind and let the tenants know soon after Christmas so they have as much time as possible to find a new place.

I would agree. Even if she doesn't give them immediate notification, she should take care to give them the statutory 4 weeks minimum notification (that means in writing OP) before the end of the lease so that they must vacate on the last day of the lease, don't just assume they will. Otherwise their tenancy, having last six months, will automatically become a Part 4 and while the OP could then notify them to vacate on the basis that she needs the propery for herself, she'll still be obliged to give them the minimum notification which will then be 5 weeks.

kneeler

The same thing happened to a friend of mine. She gave notice of a maintenance inspection. Then she showed them a report showing serious concerns about fire safety. She then showed the tenants an estimate which involved a load of work. She said that the apartment was a fire hazard and that they would have to move out within a week. She said they could move back when the work was complete. The tenants just moved and got another place. End of problem"

aN.Droid

kneeler wrote: »

The same thing happened to a friend of mine. She gave notice of a maintenance inspection. Then she showed them a report showing serious concerns about fire safety. She then showed the tenants an estimate which involved a load of work. She said that the apartment was a fire hazard and that they would have to move out within a week. She said they could move back when the work was complete. The tenants just moved and got another place. End of problem"

If she went down this route (Which is very dishonest if there isn't anything wrong) would she not be liable to put the tenants up in other suitable accommodation until repairs (fake or not) were completed?

Kimia

Rayanne2010 wrote: »

Harsh lesson to be learned from trusting someone!... guess people are not like me and I shouldnt expect them to be.. hence didnt give the lease a second thought... I am not driven by money... unfortunately for me...

Do you mean trusting your boyfriend? Because I can't imagine how you'd feel hard done by from your tenants - they haven't done anything wrong. I'm not sure why you are feeling sorry for yourself as above, you are the one who is changing the goal posts here..

Graces7

odds_on wrote: »

Those lines which I have highlighted in red and in bold refer only to PART 4 tenancy agreements. They do not refer to a Fixed Term agreement.

Sorry, but I can not make it any clearer than that.

Thanks. We had the same kind of discussion here when a landlord gave us notice during a fixed term lease. Because he wanted to move in.He was as..... uneducated.. as the OP here.

We decided to leave anyway but in our time and on our terms.And we involved Threshold and the PTRB. For safety.

OP;please have the grace and kindness to wait until after New Year. Allow the tenants peace until then? It is a horrible situation to be in. Thank you.

Grolschevik

smccarrick wrote: »

Ok guys, I seriously think I need to make a sticky thread detailing what a fixed term lease and what a Part 4 tenancy are.

Defo!