Ignorant Expats.

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Just a question for all of you people on here living abroad but in particular to those living in a non English speaking country.

I live in Germany myself and I know some Irish people here who have no interest in learning German. To me this seems ignorant. The general excuse is, oh but sure I can get by in English. But I always have to ask myself can you really.

For me personally I'd feel a bit silly if I never attempted to learn the language of the country in which I was living. Every day things like if someone asks you something on the street and you always hd to say I don't speak German would bother me.

Myself I've been learning German since I was 8 and now I work hear and have studied here but I just don't get that attidude. For me you never really get in with the locals until you are speaking their language. What have your experiences been?

jester77

Tate Microscopic Tumbleweed wrote: »

Just a question for all of you people on here living abroad but in particular to those living in a non English speaking country.

I live in Germany myself and I know some Irish people here who have no interest in learning German. To me this seems ignorant. The general excuse is, oh but sure I can get by in English. But I always have to ask myself can you really.

For me personally I'd feel a bit silly if I never attempted to learn the language of the country in which I was living. Every day things like if someone asks you something on the street and you always hd to say I don't speak German would bother me.

Myself I've been learning German since I was 8 and now I work hear and have studied here but I just don't get that attidude. For me you never really get in with the locals until you are speaking their language. What have your experiences been?

There are around 27 different nationalites working in my company. I only know 3 people who have not tried too hard to learn the language (2xUS & 1xUK), but they have the basics. The UK guy is fluent in Spanish and only planned on spending a short while in Germany, so I can sort of see his point. While all the work is done in English, all the banter is in German. I don't understand the mentality of not trying to integrate.

Most of the expats I know are fluent in 3 languages with some fluent (and I really mean fluent) in 7 or 8, they study languages. I'm always in awe at these guys when out in a group, switching from German to English to Dutch to French to Spanish to Catalan. I would love to be able to do that with a few languages. It's embarassing when they start asking me to say a few things in Irish and the only line I can think of is asking if I can go to the bathroom

I think the few people you met are thankfully very much in the minority, I only met one Irish guy like that before when I was living in Frankfurt, he was there a few years at the time and would struggle to even read a menu, just lived in the Irish pubs in his spare time. Have these people never had official meetings or had to go to their local amt, good luck getting by with English there!

MyKeyG

Back in Ireland now but I did live in France a few years back so here's my few cents.

I agree with the OP to an extent. Ignorant? I'm not so sure, people decide against learning a language for any one of a number of reasons. I remember my Irish teacher telling me that some people just can't handle languages. I know a girl whose mother is French. I met her a few years back and started speaking French and she looked at me like I had ten heads. She hadn't a clue what I was saying. I was absolutely astounded but she said she simply had no interest in maintaining a knowledge of the French her mother spoke to her as a little girl as she didn't need it.

Personally I believe it's a wasted opportunity not to learn a foreign language if the chance presents itself. It's an amazing achievement and living amongst native speakers you will never have a better opportunity to get a command of the language.

Tom Dunne

Tate Microscopic Tumbleweed wrote: »

But I always have to ask myself can you really.

It depends.

Here in the Middle East, you most certainly can. English is the language of business, road signs are in both English and Arabic, it is the common language between Western Expats, locals and Expats from Asia.

However, I do feel the same as you in terms of learning the language. I have a few words of Arabic, and I am learning more, but the locals genuinely do not expect it of you. It's as if it is accepted that you are a Westerner, therefore do not speak Arabic.

There a few days ago, I was in a Starbucks, surrounded by Americans and one local. He sheepishly looked at me and said "Hello" to which I replied (in Arabic) "good morning". The look I got was priceless. They really don't expect it.

seachto7

a weird one. I went on Erasmus to Belgium for French, lived with some Italians. We spoke to each other in French as their English was rubbish. A few years later I went abroad and learned Italian. When I met them again, we spoke in Italian, and last year I met one of them in France, and the conversation was in French and Italian, depending on what we were trying to say. It was odd, but a bit cool.....

seachto7

@Tom Dunne. Would they appreciate it when you spoke in Arabic?
From my experience in Italy, they really appreciated it when you spoke the lingo....

Gingko

I actually think the Irish when abroad are generally quite good with making the effort of learning some words in the native tongue? I find the average brit and American ten times worse! Not forgetting the Aussies who are perhaps the worst?

Ireland is officially a bilingual nation. Even those that do not have their native tongue have some words and quite often it lends itself to learning new languages. Plus acknowledging our own history and culture etc, we kinda understand!

keithclancy

Depends,

If your in the Randstad in the Netherlands its almost impossible to learn Dutch, plus everyone tells you theres no point.

In Germany I work in a Company where the Language is English, I actively try not to learn German as its screwing with my learning of Dutch.

Depends really, I'll try to speak whatever the person i'm speaking to wants to, or can speak. (Dutch/German/English)

Its not ignorance, its a combination of reasons, especially in Business you can't use dodgy German as misunderstandings can cost money.

Then again, the Landhaupstadt won't even go beyond 'Hallo' if you don't speak some sort of German

I'm really really trying with Dutch lately when I can, its a bit demoralising though when you say something in Dutch and the other side of the conversation is coming back in English

Darren1o1

keithclancy wrote: »

I'm really really trying with Dutch lately when I can, its a bit demoralising though when you say something in Dutch and the other side of the conversation is coming back in English

Agreed, this seemed to be continuously be the case when I lived in Koln.

Tuesday_Girl

I live in Amsterdam and even though I speak English all day at a US company I speak mainly Dutch outside of work. It takes a bit of determination at the beginning but then the day comes when you can't remember the last time someone answered you in English It took me about 1.5 years to become fluent but I did study languages at college and already spoke German, that was a massive help and I also went to classes 6 hours a week for those 1.5 years.

I have friends who can't order in a restaurant or ask for directions after 15 years here, they can't even read any letters they receive which is a bit pathetic I do think.

Tom Dunne

seachto7 wrote: »

@Tom Dunne. Would they appreciate it when you spoke in Arabic?

Yeah, I think so. They generally tend to be a bit surprised, though.

keithclancy

Razzle wrote: »

I live in Amsterdam and even though I speak English all day at a US company I speak mainly Dutch outside of work. It takes a bit of determination at the beginning but then the day comes when you can't remember the last time someone answered you in English It took me about 1.5 years to become fluent but I did study languages at college and already spoke German, that was a massive help and I also went to classes 6 hours a week for those 1.5 years.

I have friends who can't order in a restaurant or ask for directions after 15 years here, they can't even read any letters they receive which is a bit pathetic I do think.

Directions ... ask a Farmer for directions in Limburg in any language and you'll end up lost

denhaagenite

Razzle wrote: »

I live in Amsterdam and even though I speak English all day at a US company I speak mainly Dutch outside of work. It takes a bit of determination at the beginning but then the day comes when you can't remember the last time someone answered you in English It took me about 1.5 years to become fluent but I did study languages at college and already spoke German, that was a massive help and I also went to classes 6 hours a week for those 1.5 years.

I have friends who can't order in a restaurant or ask for directions after 15 years here, they can't even read any letters they receive which is a bit pathetic I do think.

When we were living in the Hague we struggled to meet Dutch people. We were both working in international organisations where English was the working language, and tbh I think maybe some Dutch people we worked with had already made their social groups from uni or whatever and were happier to stick to those groups.

There's also the fact that a large percentage of the expat community are transient, working as contractors and only spending a year or so in the country. There's usually an attitude of "Well I'm not staying so there's no point wasting my energy with a new language". I find that up until maybe a year ago that this was doable but recently you can tell that it isn't as easy to get by without Dutch. Personally I think that this is fine but although the government makes provisions for integration for people outside of Europe there's nothing for European immigrants.

In Eindhoven, it's alot more difficult to get by without Dutch than it is in the Randstad. You can do it, but you're going to miss out on alot. Having said that, I tend to speak English with my friends and Dutch with complete strangers. If I'm with someone who doesn't speak any English then I will speak Dutch. It's definitely practice, and although I have quite an extensive vocabulary my grammar is terrible. Have enrolled in lessons so I hope to fix that.

Very weird though, when I'm counting or reciting the alphabet in my head it's always in Dutch. A bit with days of the week and months aswell.

syklops

Tate Microscopic Tumbleweed wrote: »

Just a question for all of you people on here living abroad but in particular to those living in a non English speaking country.

I live in Germany myself and I know some Irish people here who have no interest in learning German. To me this seems ignorant. The general excuse is, oh but sure I can get by in English. But I always have to ask myself can you really.

For me personally I'd feel a bit silly if I never attempted to learn the language of the country in which I was living. Every day things like if someone asks you something on the street and you always hd to say I don't speak German would bother me.

Myself I've been learning German since I was 8 and now I work hear and have studied here but I just don't get that attidude. For me you never really get in with the locals until you are speaking their language. What have your experiences been?

I'm having flashbacks to the "Where is the best place to emigrate to" thread, where I was in the minority(slightly) with regard to needing to learn the language, but I wont bring that up again.

I am here in the Czech Republic for nearly 3 years. I attended lessons for about 6 months then changed companies and said I would start them again in that company. Unfortunately I have not started them yet but hope to in the new year.

To answer, can you get by in most european countries without the local language, I would say yes you can. How well is where the argument lies.

When I came here first, I had 'please' and 'thank you' and a few other choice expressions and that was it. Despite that, I managed to set up my bank account, and find accommodation(German landlord who spoke english). After that, what else do you need?

Now I take your argument about some people having no interest in learning anything. Indeed I know people who have been living here for 10 years and think they are doing well with "pivo prosim", but one thing to remember is people have stuff going on in their lives. Working a forty hour week, raising kids, cooking, cleaning, socialising. To spend an extra hour a day to learn a language when you are getting on ok seems like a lot to some people. Especially for some people who don't intend to settle in the country they are in.

There is also the reaction of natives to fledging attempts at speaking the foreign language. They first couple of very direct and negative criticisms made by a native speaker to an expat who is just learning can be enough to put many people off learning the language. Its amazing I still make the effort with some of the reactions I have gotten from people. I remember a guy telling me what I had typed was completely wrong when actually it was only wrong by three letters. Its a good job he was a manager, as I nearly hit him. Get very direct criticisms enough time and you just say "F&&k it, I'll do fine with out it".

Myself I've been learning German since I was 8 and now I work hear and have studied here but I just don't get that attidude. For me you never really get in with the locals until you are speaking their language. What have your experiences been?

I suspect OP, that you are in something of a unique position. You made all your schoolboy errors, you know, back when you were a school boy. You have also been touched by german culture for quite sometime. Perhaps you plan to settle there? Not everyone is in the same boat. Not everyone wants to stay and of those who do, not everyone wants to integrate. Its not ignorant. Its just having different agendas.

syklops

Did I kill the conversation?

The Hill Billy

Grüssach zäme!

I've been working in the German-speaking part of Switzerland for some time now. There are people from 37 nations just in my department alone, so English is the common language.

While I've been going to classes for the best part of a year now, my German isn't as good as it could be. This is for a number of reasons:
1. My classes are in high-German & the locals speak Swiss-German (specifically Bern-German). It is like being taught English with perfect elocution, but only being able to converse with people from the Scottish Highlands.
2. It is difficult to have a conversation with a local friends 'auf deutsch' as they all love showing off how good their English is.
3. While I speak German when dealing with other locals - most will respond in English because they think that they are being helpful.

That said, there are quite a few of my colleagues (native English-speakers) whose German is just as good as (if not better than) mine, they'll always speak English with locals no matter what. When I point this out to them the usual response is "Well, they all speak English anyway." (Which is true.)

I don't think that it is ignorance, but plain ol' laziness.

Schöne, gau!