citydeals deal for GP visit

opinion guy

Is this legal ?

GP offering a 'deal' on consultation plus blood tests & ECG.

Ignoring the fact that the prices are crap - aren't GP's banned from advertising ?

http://www.groupon.ie/deals/dublin-special/rafter-s-medical-group/1969480?nlp=&CID=IE_CRM_1_0_0_340&a=1768

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

Is this legal ?

GP offering a 'deal' on consultation plus blood tests & ECG.

Ignoring the fact that the prices are crap - aren't GP's banned from advertising ?

http://www.groupon.ie/deals/dublin-special/rafter-s-medical-group/1969480?nlp=&CID=IE_CRM_1_0_0_340&a=1768

The ban on advertising was removed quite a few years ago following representations made by the competition authority.
GP's are now allowed to advertised in which ever way they wish.

Ps I thought the prices there are actually very good! That said the benefits of a screening ECG are doubtful...

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

The ban on advertising was removed quite a few years ago following representations made by the competition authority.
GP's are now allowed to advertised in which ever way they wish.

Wow I did not know that.

Ps I thought the prices there are actually very good! That said the benefits of a screening ECG are doubtful...

I thought 60 euro was a standard charge these days ? Do blood tests and ECG cost extra on top of that ?

According to the deal this would normally cost €150 ?? Seriously ??

AmcD

In my practice that would cost €50, the charge for a standard consult. If a routine ECG or bloods were needed the patient would have the option of having them done for free at the local hospital. Otherwise we charge €20 for bloods

MLH1

Yet GPs dont pay anything for laboratory supplies, blood to be tested and in a majority of cases transport to the laboratory, Good to know Rip Off Republic still exists in GP practices

RobFowl

MLH1 wrote: »

Yet GPs dont pay anything for laboratory supplies, blood to be tested and in a majority of cases transport to the laboratory, Good to know Rip Off Republic still exists in GP practices

GP's do have to pay for clinical waste disposal (sharps esp), alcohol swabs, some transport costs (2 days out of 5 in my case) and usually software licencing and hardware to recieve results. The time and person to take the bloods also has to be taken into account.
ECG tests are largely driven by time and the cost of the ECG machine. As AMcD states they can be done free in most hospitals but if a GP wants to provide them "in-house" they must buy an ECG machine. These start at €2500 and also require either dedicated paper or software (software approx €800).
Hence I thought the price above seems quite good value.

But the lazy allegation of a rip-off is far easier and more dramatic........

RobFowl

FTR
The Santry sports surgery clinic charge €50 for an ECG alone. This is afaik quite competitive for a hospital (privately)
http://www.sportssurgeryclinic.com/departments/cardiology-andamp-respiratory-testing.html

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

GP's do have to pay for clinical waste disposal (sharps esp), alcohol swabs, some transport costs (2 days out of 5 in my case) and usually software licencing and hardware to recieve results. The time and person to take the bloods also has to be taken into account.
ECG tests are largely driven by time and the cost of the ECG machine. As AMcD states they can be done free in most hospitals but if a GP wants to provide them "in-house" they must buy an ECG machine. These start at €2500 and also require either dedicated paper or software (software approx €800).
Hence I thought the price above seems quite good value.

But the lazy allegation of a rip-off is far easier and more dramatic........

How much is a stethoscope ? €200 ?
Do you charge 2 euro everytime you use it ? Certain things are basic requirements and should be including in the base fee, no ?

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

How much is a stethoscope ? €200 ?
Do you charge 2 euro everytime you use it ? Certain things are basic requirements and should be including in the base fee, no ?

Certain things are basic requirements, ECG machines are simply not. If you are to provide the service you have to at least cover the cost of providing it.
As stated they can be got free with a referral but that entails going to a hospital (usually) to get it done.

Stethoscopes start at €10 and go up to about 300. Most use the Littmans which cost about €80.

RobFowl

I'm genuinely interested in how much you feel a consultation, ECG and blood tests should cost?

AmcD

MLH1 wrote: »

Yet GPs dont pay anything for laboratory supplies, blood to be tested and in a majority of cases transport to the laboratory, Good to know Rip Off Republic still exists in GP practices

Good luck asking any plumber, solicitor, mechanic etc what services they provide that cost €20. There is an element of skill in taking blood, otherwise you would do it yourself. As stated before, there is a free alternative.

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

I'm genuinely interested in how much you feel a consultation, ECG and blood tests should cost?

Honestly I think that should all be included in the consultation price. If the patients presenting complaints merits those tests then they shouldn't cost extra. Cost to the patient of seeing the doctor and getting basic tests shouldn't depend on how sick he is - otherwise the patient may defer those tests and get sicker. You say he can get them done in hospital. Why should he/she have to go and wait again after waiting to see doctor to get simple tests ? And at the same time further clogging up the outpatient services. Whilst I understand ECG machines cost money, they should be seen as part of basic overhead of any practice - especially any group practices.

To follow AmcD's point - would you expect a plumber/mechanic etc to charge you extra for each tool he uses on your job ?? No you pay him a flat rate. He pays for his equipment out of that. He gets to claim against tax as a doc would for an ECG machine.

MLH1

Well since their are no formal qualifications required to work in Phlebotomy in Ireland, and its costs a GP nothing in terms of supplies, laboratory fees or transport I fail to see warrant for charging extra for bloods. The only difference to a consultation without blood tests is the time it takes to take the sample. Since consultation are not charged per minute I still feel this is a Rip off tactic. How many GP's admit to their patients they pay nothing for needles, tubes, laboratory fees or transport to the laboratory when charging them another €10.

As for the interpretation time of the results does a GP charge more to patients to read X ray reports?

AmcD

There is no point in me getting bogged down in these arguments, I am not going to change anybody's minds. The bottom line is that GPs charge for the services provided. In general people resent paying for healthcare, especially when a large component is listening and giving advice. It could be €10 for a consult or €100, it doesn't matter.
I personally can't wait until there is universal healthcare and the money aspect is taken out of the consult. The outrage will probably move on then to waiting times for appointments.

RobFowl

AmcD wrote: »

There is no point in me getting bogged down in these arguments, I am not going to change anybody's minds.

Words from the wise :cool:

finty

opinion guy wrote: »

To follow AmcD's point - would you expect a plumber/mechanic etc to charge you extra for each tool he uses on your job ?? No you pay him a flat rate. He pays for his equipment out of that. He gets to claim against tax as a doc would for an ECG machine.

I recently got a plumber out to look at a water pump.

He quoted me 80euro if the pump didnt need disconnecting from the water supply and 110euro if it did.

No flat rate....strange that.

Im also sure garages charge for a car service, while adding something like changing a timing belt incurs an extra fee.....

Outrageous, isnt it?

opinion guy

finty wrote: »

I recently got a plumber out to look at a water pump.

He quoted me 80euro if the pump didnt need disconnecting from the water supply and 110euro if it did.

No flat rate....strange that.

Im also sure garages charge for a car service, while adding something like changing a timing belt change incurrs an extra fee.....

Outrageous, isnt it?

I agree finty - shocking. Then again.....you could have you know....shopped around....something thats not really practical or advisable with your doctor. Also your analogy is stretched - it would work better if we were talking about getting spare parts from your doctor - like a kidney or something - or a pacemaker. funny enough you know what - its does cost more to get a pacemaker than to just visit your doctor.....weird huh ? Neither of those guys charged you each time they hit something with their hammer did they ?

finty

opinion guy wrote: »

Neither of those guys charged you each time they hit something with their hammer did they ?

Eh, what??

standard care - standard price

extra services = extra costs = added price

It the way the world works my friend.

Maybe you expect to pay your GP charge and then hang around the surgery for the day getting bloods, an ecg, spirometry, maybe an ultrasound and whatever other service else your GP has invested in to provide a better service to his/her patients all for no added cost to you.

opinion guy

finty wrote: »

Eh, what??

standard care - standard price

extra services = extra costs = added price

It the way the world works my friend.

Maybe you expect to pay your GP charge and then hang around the surgery for the day getting bloods, an ecg, spirometry, maybe an ultrasound and whatever other service else your GP has invested in to provide a better service to his/her patients all for no added cost to you.

ECG and bloods ARE standard care. Spirometry and ultrasound are not.

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

In my opinion ECG and bloods ARE standard care. Spirometry and ultrasound are not.

FYP

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

FYP

Oh hey by all means don't listen to the opinions of your patients. I mean you basically have a captive market so it doesn't really matter what they think.

How are you going to feel about all this when all primary care is free in a few years by the way ? Who will pay for each ECG then ?

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

How are you going to feel about all this when all primary care is free in a few years by the way ? Who will pay for each ECG then ?

You will through insurance premiums as opposed to now when you pay for them via direct charges.....



Primary care will never be free just funded and paid for in a different way!!!

RobFowl

opinion guy wrote: »

Oh hey by all means don't listen to the opinions of your patients. I mean you basically have a captive market so it doesn't really matter what they think.

I do hence we bought an ECG and charge for its use. If anyone doesn't want to pay for it they can be referred to a local hospital to get it done on the public system.

In this case you have an opinion which is not shared by any GP's I know and probably a minority of the public.
You are not going to change your mind (or accept any other opinions) no matter how much information you get so I really don't see any further point engaging with you on this topic....

opinion guy

RobFowl wrote: »

You will through insurance premiums as opposed to now when you pay for them via direct charges.....



Primary care will never be free just funded and paid for in a different way!!!

Of course that didn't occur to me

RobFowl wrote: »

I do hence we bought an ECG and charge for its use. If anyone doesn't want to pay for it they can be referred to a local hospital to get it done on the public system.

In this case you have an opinion which is not shared by any GP's I know and probably a minority of the public.
You are not going to change your mind (or accept any other opinions) no matter how much information you get so I really don't see any further point engaging with you on this topic....

To be honest RobFowl I don't feel so strongly about it as my argument might suggest - I'm playing devil's advocate to an extent. I can understand your point of an ECG machine being an expensive outlay - well ok I you are a lone GP then I understand - if its a 5 doctor practice with a full-time nurse already employed its probably alot less of a problem wouldn't you think ?

I guess its a question of amount. If you said to me it was ten euro for an ECG I wouldn't be so bothered - but like you said santry at 50EURO is ridiculous.
A consultation with bloods and an ECG for €150 as the citydeal suggests seems exorbitant to me. I would think max of 80 for that.

You are right though - I'm not going to change my mind that bloods and an ECG are part of a basic workup. I mean guy walks in and says he has chest pain. How is an ECG not a basic part of that work up ??

chanste

Just looked at the link and 451 of the groupon vouchers were sold. I'm personally of the opinion that if someone was concerned enough about their health to feel they need an ECG and blood tests they should not have waited to see a special offer to get it checked out, and if they are not that concerned and don't have symptoms I think they are prob wasting their money.

The prices seem ok to me. I've only ever done an ECG on someone is medical school clinical skills sessions and it can be pretty time consuming just getting the thing ready (though I am still a student so I'm sure vintage docs would be quicker). I think its already been mentioned though that if you actually have chest pain and require the full work up, your doc will probably be referring you to A&E where you won't be charged for it so this IMO is purely for people who want something checked that no doctor think is worth flagging so a charge is appropriate.