Cap politicans salaries

zero_hope

There should be a cap on politicians salaries and they should get paid no more than minimum wage, this will scare away the sociopaths who's only intention is to live high on the hog on the hog while the tax payer's foot the bill.

I think this is a great idea, why should any politician get more than minimum wage seeing they are all worthless anyway and they should be happy to be paid anything at all.

Riskymove

zero_hope wrote: »

There should be a cap on politicians salaries and they should get paid no more than minimum wage, this will scare away the sociopaths who's only intention is to live high on the hog on the hog while the tax payer's foot the bill.

who would it entice?

Lockstep

No, as paying politicians the minimum wage would discourage anyone who wasn't already wealthy.

Politicians have pretty ****ty jobs in a lot of ways. The amount of abuse they have to deal with is unreal as no matter how well-meaning or hard-working a politician is, there will be a steady stream of cranks ringing them up in the wee hours or waylaying them in the street to hurl abuse or lecture them on how they should be doing their jobs.
Politicians get no downtime. You have to be available at all hours (a councillor friend of mine had his anniversary dinner interrupted by a guy who wanted to tell him why Ireland should default and leave the EU and why he needed to champion this view within the party)

I earn just over the minimum wage and when I'm not working, my time is my own. TDs, senators, MEPs and councillors do no get this.
If you want to pay them the minimum wage then it'd need to be €8.65x24 (the hours they need to be available) multiplied by 7 (for every day of the week) and then by 52 (weeks in the year) which amounts to just over €75k.
If you really think they shouldn't be paid anything at all, you could take a look back at the UK before politicians were paid. This meant that the only people who could afford to be politicians were those who were so wealthy that they didn't need to work and could afford to spend all their time in parliament working for free.


Can politicians take a paycut? Of course, to a reasonable level (perhaps €70k)
Is a pay-politicians-minimum wage plan sensible or even viable? No.

Slydice

I saw sinn fein saying they'd cap government wages in their recent budget proposal: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-proposes-euro100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-2935439.html

Government salaries would be capped at €100,000, TDs at €75,000 and senators at €60,000, it states in its pre-Budget submission.

Anyone have links to the other parties proposed caps?

Lockstep

Slydice wrote: »

I saw sinn fein saying they'd cap government wages in their recent budget proposal: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-proposes-euro100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-2935439.html

Anyone have links to the other parties proposed caps?

Well, the current government has reduced pay
IIRC, they want to cut salaries to €200k max for senior civil servants.
The presidency is gonna be reduced to €249k or so but Higgins has voluntarily taken this paycut as they can't reduce his pay while he's in office.

I'm in two minds about cutting pay too much though. While I can see the need for solidarity, I firmly believe that if someone is doing their job properly, they should be paid accordingly to attract the best to the job.

bmaxi

Lockstep wrote: »

Well, the current government has reduced pay
IIRC, they want to cut salaries to €200k max for senior civil servants.
The presidency is gonna be reduced to €249k or so but Higgins has voluntarily taken this paycut as they can't reduce his pay while he's in office.

I'm in two minds about cutting pay too much though. While I can see the need for solidarity, I firmly believe that if someone is doing their job properly, they should be paid accordingly to attract the best to the job.

Problem is, people are paid top rates for not doing the job. If we were to take it on that basis then Cowen, Ahern, Dempsey etc. plus a lot of top public servants would be working off their debt for the rest of their lives, instead of continuing to leech off the taxpayer.

anymore

Lockstep wrote: »

No, as paying politicians the minimum wage would discourage anyone who wasn't already wealthy.

Politicians have pretty ****ty jobs in a lot of ways. The amount of abuse they have to deal with is unreal as no matter how well-meaning or hard-working a politician is, there will be a steady stream of cranks ringing them up in the wee hours or waylaying them in the street to hurl abuse or lecture them on how they should be doing their jobs.
Politicians get no downtime. You have to be available at all hours (a councillor friend of mine had his anniversary dinner interrupted by a guy who wanted to tell him why Ireland should default and leave the EU and why he needed to champion this view within the party)

I earn just over the minimum wage and when I'm not working, my time is my own. TDs, senators, MEPs and councillors do no get this.
If you want to pay them the minimum wage then it'd need to be €8.65x24 (the hours they need to be available) multiplied by 7 (for every day of the week) and then by 52 (weeks in the year) which amounts to just over €75k.
If you really think they shouldn't be paid anything at all, you could take a look back at the UK before politicians were paid. This meant that the only people who could afford to be politicians were those who were so wealthy that they didn't need to work and could afford to spend all their time in parliament working for free.


Can politicians take a paycut? Of course, to a reasonable level (perhaps €70k)
Is a pay-politicians-minimum wage plan sensible or even viable? No.

The notion of politicians being constantly on demand is complete and utter nonsense driven mainly by the dseire of politicians to insinuate themselves as deeply as possible into people's lives ti make it seem as if they were indispensable. Irish politicians infact undermne the provision of properly functioniong public services.
In rgard to Councillors, the huge junket industry shows how nonsensical is the claim to be on call 7 days a week ! yes I know not every one goes on them. The reality a politican who claims to be available 7 days a week, has issues which he /should have looked at. It is called delusion.
I am waiting for one of our professional young fema,le politicians to reply to an email and the reminders I sent her two years ago !
If your friend doesnt have the backbone to deal with nuisances, he should get out of politics.

Lockstep

anymore wrote: »

The notion of politicians being constantly on demand is complete and utter nonsense driven mainly by the dseire of politicians to insinuate themselves as deeply as possible into people's lives ti make it seem as if they were indispensable. Irish politicians infact undermne the provision of properly functioniong public services.

I fully agree that politicians shouldn't be dealing with pothole issues. Unfortunately, if they do not then they don't get elected and those who are willing to focus on such issues make up the Dáil.

anymore wrote: »

In rgard to Councillors, the huge junket industry shows how nonsensical is the claim to be on call 7 days a week ! yes I know not every one goes on them. The reality a politican who claims to be available 7 days a week, has issues which he /should have looked at. It is called delusion.

Actually it's not. Politicians have their phone numbers posted for all to see and to get in contact with them. Unless you think they keep the phones switched off (and you can imagine the complaints that would appear if they did that) then, yes, they are constantly on demand.

When I go home from work, my time is my own. A politician does not have this. They are constantly on call and can be summoned to the Dáil for an emergency or have constituents constantly ringing with bizarre demands (and this does happen, as I can say from experience)

anymore wrote: »

I am waiting for one of our professional young fema,le politicians to reply to an email and the reminders I sent her two years ago !

If you emailed her then I really don't think you can expect a prompt reply. If it was something important/urgent then phone her or call into her constituency office.
I dunno what industry you work in yourself but emails are not great ways to get into contact with anyone, especially politicians who would be getting a lot of emails anyway.

anymore wrote: »

If your friend doesnt have the backbone to deal with nuisances, he should get out of politics.

"Get out of politics?" Nice one.
You're right. Actions like that are mere nuisances and not unacceptable intrusions.
Noone should have to deal with crap like that. Unfortunately politicians do as if they don't, you can bet that the constituent will constantly be telling everyone about how unhelpful said politician is.
Check out a random TD's Facebook page for example. Chances are it will have people making unacceptable demands and criticisms (along with legit ones)

Sentences like that are fairly irritating "If you can't handle men grabbing your ass and making suggestive comments to you then don't be a waitress"
In that case, the problem is with people behaving inappropriately, not with the waitresses inability to tolerate such behaviour. Ditto with politicians.

Lockstep

bmaxi wrote: »

Problem is, people are paid top rates for not doing the job. If we were to take it on that basis then Cowen, Ahern, Dempsey etc. plus a lot of top public servants would be working off their debt for the rest of their lives, instead of continuing to leech off the taxpayer.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from.
If there was a way to reward good work, I'd be delighted to see it but I'd see the alternative (paying everyone low wages as some of them are incompetent) as even worse as it wouldn't attract the best people for the job.
Take the financial regulator for example. Neary's job was atrocious but Elderfield is doing well. We'd need to pay a good wage to attract someone of Elderfield's calibre. Neary shouldn't be getting the same though.

bmaxi

Lockstep wrote: »

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from.
If there was a way to reward good work, I'd be delighted to see it but I'd see the alternative (paying everyone low wages as some of them are incompetent) as even worse as it wouldn't attract the best people for the job.
Take the financial regulator for example. Neary's job was atrocious but Elderfield is doing well. We'd need to pay a good wage to attract someone of Elderfield's calibre. Neary shouldn't be getting the same though.

I don't have a problem with the concept of just reward for a good job. Most of our problems were (are) caused by political cronyism and the ridiculous system of promoting civil servants on a length of service basis.
I'd be interested to know exactly what the chairperson of, say Bus Eireann, Irish Rail, Coillte, actually do for their enormous salaries, what the qualities were that stood them out from other candidates and what is the justification for the position even existing.

JustinDee

Slydice wrote: »

I saw sinn fein saying they'd cap government wages in their recent budget proposal: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sinn-fein-proposes-euro100000-cap-for-public-sector-workers-2935439.html

All fine and dandy from a party that receives money and expenses from Stormont and Westinster (yet doesn't attend) too.

bamboozle

i'd settle for all expenses to be fully vouched

no politicial pensions to be accessed until 66 years old

Seanad to be abolished

Dail to be reduced by 25% to 124 TD's.

PRAF

All this talk of cutting politicians pay is a bit like rearranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic as it is about to sink.

The real problem is the 100b national debt and the 20b gap between tax income and expenditure.

Saving a few euro here and there on politicians pay and expenses will make zero difference. In fact, electing an even worse shower of incompetent buffoons will more than likely make the problems worse.

God help us if the looney left ever took power.

ednwireland

PRAF wrote: »

All this talk of cutting politicians pay is a bit like rearranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic as it is about to sink.

The real problem is the 100b national debt and the 20b gap between tax income and expenditure.

Saving a few euro here and there on politicians pay and expenses will make zero difference. In fact, electing an even worse shower of incompetent buffoons will more than likely make the problems worse.

God help us if the looney left ever took power.

now this attitude really bugs me, its why we cant seem to reduce public spending at the moment nobodies wages should be cut nobodies expenses looked at its only a few quid it wont make any difference, where the hell do you propose cuts are made id rather see it start at the top and work its way down. obviously 30k isnt a lot to you but how the hell does willie penrose get that after resigning after a few months. it seems to me you'd rather leave this guys at the trough and i do accept that everything else needs to be cut ( childrens allowns jsb etc)
but having been through a process like this in a small and large companies its no different anywhere else, ALL expenditure has to be looked at.

bmaxi

PRAF wrote: »

All this talk of cutting politicians pay is a bit like rearranging the furniture on the deck of the Titanic as it is about to sink.

The real problem is the 100b national debt and the 20b gap between tax income and expenditure.

Saving a few euro here and there on politicians pay and expenses will make zero difference. In fact, electing an even worse shower of incompetent buffoons will more than likely make the problems worse.

God help us if the looney left ever took power.

That you Enda?

This is exactly what the oligarchy would like us to believe, based on the fact there's so few of them and so many of us. The fact is, when you look at cuts you have to look at the effect on individuals.
I mentioned in an earlier post that the Italian Prime Minister has elected to forego his salary. Given that the Italian national debt runs in to trillions of euro then his salary wouldn't amount to a grain of sand, but what he has done is show leadership, all our politicians want to do is take for themselves an ever increasing portion of a dwindling pot. Add to that the obscene expenses regime which means they rarely have to put their hands in their pockets, then this "everyone will share the pain" bull****is just plain insulting to the man who has worked hard and paid his dues, and is, thanks to these same vultures, hard pressed to keep body and soul together.

Riskymove

bmaxi wrote: »

I mentioned in an earlier post that the Italian Prime Minister has elected to forego his salary.

and fair enough, that looks good, but context is everthing

He is a succesful former politician who spent many years as a European Commissioner, so he is likely to be in reciept of a large pension package. This package is probably worth more than the going salary for PM

It makes it a bit easier to forgo a salary if you know your previous employer is going to keep paying you

PRAF

ednwireland wrote: »

now this attitude really bugs me, its why we cant seem to reduce public spending at the moment nobodies wages should be cut nobodies expenses looked at its only a few quid it wont make any difference, where the hell do you propose cuts are made id rather see it start at the top and work its way down. obviously 30k isnt a lot to you but how the hell does willie penrose get that after resigning after a few months. it seems to me you'd rather leave this guys at the trough and i do accept that everything else needs to be cut ( childrens allowns jsb etc)
but having been through a process like this in a small and large companies its no different anywhere else, ALL expenditure has to be looked at.

Sorry that you find the truth so annoying. The truth being that you cannot get top quality people to sign up to the job from hell for (comparitively) little reward. It's like criticising Robbie Keane for not playing for Shamrock Rovers. He's a goot footballer, he's from Tallaght, therefore is it a disgrace that he won't play for them in order to get them into the Champions League. The hard reality is that top talent follows the money. I haven't a clue if the advisor in question is any good or not, but the principle remains.

I agree on the need for cuts. That is obvious. My pref would be to cut the following:
- Medical consultants contracts cut
- Fees to lawyers cut
- Salaries to senior civil servants cut
- Salaries for top academics cut
- Greatly reduce and eliminate many of the wasteful spending programs that our govt still wastes our money on
- Greatly reform and reduce the cost of local govt

However, the big ticket items are actually nothing to do with the cuts agenda. We need to:
- Get the ECB to do us a deal on the Anglo promissory notes
- Get the economy, especially the domestic economy, going again
- Get people back to work

This is where we save billions. Wasting time taking about 30k for a special advisor is just that, wasting time. Worse still, distracting our politicians into a bidding war about who will cut eachothers salary the most is a alarming waste of precious time that should be focussed on the big items.

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

and fair enough, that looks good, but context is everthing

He is a succesful former politician who spent many years as a European Commissioner, so he is likely to be in reciept of a large pension package. This package is probably worth more than the going salary for PM

It makes it a bit easier to forgo a salary if you know your previous employer is going to keep paying you

Not disputing that but there are plenty in the Dáil who are independently wealthy, James Reilly for one.
The point is, Monti could have taken the salary and noone could fault him, he chose not to and this both sets an example and make it more difficult for public service unions not to follow that example.
Whatever his motives, it is in glaring contrast to the greedfest going on here.

bmaxi

PRAF wrote: »

Sorry that you find the truth so annoying. The truth being that you cannot get top quality people to sign up to the job from hell for (comparitively) little reward. It's like criticising Robbie Keane for not playing for Shamrock Rovers. He's a goot footballer, he's from Tallaght, therefore is it a disgrace that he won't play for them in order to get them into the Champions League. The hard reality is that top talent follows the money. I haven't a clue if the advisor in question is any good or not, but the principle remains.

I agree on the need for cuts. That is obvious. My pref would be to cut the following:
- Medical consultants contracts cut
- Fees to lawyers cut
- Salaries to senior civil servants cut
- Salaries for top academics cut
- Greatly reduce and eliminate many of the wasteful spending programs that our govt still wastes our money on
- Greatly reform and reduce the cost of local govt

However, the big ticket items are actually nothing to do with the cuts agenda. We need to:
- Get the ECB to do us a deal on the Anglo promissory notes
- Get the economy, especially the domestic economy, going again
- Get people back to work

This is where we save billions. Wasting time taking about 30k for a special advisor is just that, wasting time. Worse still, distracting our politicians into a bidding war about who will cut eachothers salary the most is a alarming waste of precious time that should be focussed on the big items.

I agree with much of what you say except for talking about €30000; which €30000, this one or the next one or the one after that? A stand has to be taken somewhere and it might as well be here.

Bagenal

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd settle for all expenses to be fully vouched

no politicial pensions to be accessed until 66 years old

Seanad to be abolished

Dail to be reduced by 25% to 124 TD's.

The pensions & expenses bit of your post are two of the suggestions I wrote to Mr Kenny, Mr Gilmore,Mr Martin & the ex Green party leader with along with my other suggestions of maximum pay of
€60,000 for a TD
€75,000 for a minister
€100.000 for the Taoiseach

I got replies from Mr Kenny & Mr Gilmore only but their replies only consisted of " Thank you for your letter" drivel.

Riskymove

bmaxi wrote: »

Not disputing that but there are plenty in the Dáil who are independently wealthy, James Reilly for one.
.

James Reilly is not practising while Minister

hatrickpatrick

What would be the point? The government would just make "exemptions" for "special cases" like former advisers to the Taoiseach. :mad:

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

James Reilly is not practising while Minister

GP earnings are only pocket money to Dr.Reilly. You're surely not suggesting he'd be penniless without his Dáil salary.

JustinDee

Why do Irish folk constantly begrudge success or anyone who earns a decent living? Not everyone in earning nice bucks is milking the system, breaking the rules or even bending the rules.

Riskymove

bmaxi wrote: »

GP earnings are only pocket money to Dr.Reilly. You're surely not suggesting he'd be penniless without his Dáil salary.

not at all, just like Monti is not penniless without PM salary..indeed I'd say the PM pay would only be pocket change to him too

blahfckingblah

yes there should be a cap but it shouldnt be at or near minimum wage, its a high pressure job that is by no means guaranteed, (i know a lot of jobs arent guaranteed these days). Aside from that what incentive would there be to become a politician, it would attract rich men on an ego trip rather than the wide spectrum of people it currently does.

mikep

I wonder how a cap on the salaries of the opposition only would fly...
After all they aren't making any of the decisions...

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

not at all, just like Monti is not penniless without PM salary..indeed I'd say the PM pay would only be pocket change to him too

If you read the thread instead of being selective, you'd see that is not in dispute.

Riskymove

bmaxi wrote: »

If you read the thread instead of being selective, you'd see that is not in dispute.

sorry you have lost me now

who is supposed to be disputing what with whom?

Mario Monti is forgoing a salary as PM which you say shows leadership

I agree but say its easier for him than the people here because of his other incomes

what's in dispute?

Enda Kenny has no alternative income so i dont expect him to forgo a livlihood

Others like John Crown have forgone a salary as they do have an alternative income

bmaxi

Riskymove wrote: »

sorry you have lost me now

who is supposed to be disputing what with whom?

Mario Monti is forgoing a salary as PM which you say shows leadership

I agree but say its easier for him than the people here because of his other incomes

what's in dispute?

Enda Kenny has no alternative income so i dont expect him to forgo a livlihood

Others like John Crown have forgone a salary as they do have an alternative income

The suggestion is not that Kenny should forgo his salary, the suggestion is that TDs should receive reasonable remuneration, that is not the case at the moment. The reference to Monti was to highlight the fact that, unlike the parasites here, he was content not to squeeze every last cent he could out of the public purse. The same James Reilly, a multi millionaire, claimed over €20000 in expenses in one year for travelling 15 miles to Dáil Eireann from Rush. Now that's just taking the piss, these are the same guys who are preaching to the sick, old and unemployed about the need for everyone to take the pain. Everyone doesn't include them obviously.

zeds alive

Regardless of what they should be paid , remember it's politicians who vote on their own salaries , would you vote to cut your own salary?

PRAF

zeds alive wrote: »

Regardless of what they should be paid , remember it's politicians who vote on their own salaries , would you vote to cut your own salary?

If you were the current govt, the answer is yes. Paycuts for ministers, reduced expenses, reduced pensions etc. since they got into power.

Are the current cuts enough? That is a different question

bmaxi

PRAF wrote: »

If you were the current govt, the answer is yes. Paycuts for ministers, reduced expenses, reduced pensions etc. since they got into power.

Are the current cuts enough? That is a different question

Cuts are not enough, the whole attitude needs to change. We hear all the time about the culture of entitlement, nowhere is it more evident than among politicians and public servants.

RandolphEsq

TDs' and Ministers' pensions are the problem. They should not be paid so much after they finish in politics. It is either their self-created pension fund or else the basic State pension, as far as I am concerned.

limklad

Lockstep wrote: »

When I go home from work, my time is my own. A politician does not have this. They are constantly on call and can be summoned to the Dáil for an emergency or have constituents constantly ringing with bizarre demands (and this does happen, as I can say from experience)

The Difference between you and a Politician is that they themselves choose to go before the people to represent the people. They choose that profession themselves. This is a profession that everybody see on TV, Newspapers, Internet etc for the amount of time they are seen in public. They were not force into that Job, unlike some public representatives in in certain city states of ancient greek, where someone was voted into a position against their will in a state position with little or no income from that position. I forget which ancient greek city state that was as all of them varied styles of Politics and punishment, even punished for not attending to even vote.

So no, I do not feel pity for Irish Politicians where they crib and whine and whinge like a kid on a basic Salary of €100,000 like John Brady (former FF TD) did http://www.thefreelibrary.com/I+can%27t+live+on+EUR100k,+claims+TD;+ELECTION+SNIPPETS.-a0248697287
And about how little it is and about how hard their job is. John Brady got €70,000 in expenses for the previous year. They put themselves forward for the Job. If they were dumb enough to believe it would be an easy job, then they should resign their seat out of sheer incompetence and leave someone else to take the position who wants that Job. Every time there is an increase or decrease in Politicians income they comes up with the same lame excuses.

I believe they are still been paid too much since much of their election expenses is paid for by the public and what they spend over that amount they themselves choose to spend that money.
They get a lot of unvouched expenses. The expense scandal of Ivor Calley and John O'Doughnoue expensive trips highlights the ignorants of Politicians on suffering of decent families who scrapped by with a hell of less a fraction of expense claims and expensive foreign trips.

I still remember watch the few late late shows back in the 90's of Padraig Flynn complaining about living on a lowely income of £100,000 (Punts) together with three houses, cars and housekeepers and travelled regularly between Europe and Home, and he still got expenses on top of that amount. He work in Brussels, yet still have a house in Dublin and Yet he still complained about the hassle involved with having three houses!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8T0Q03oJSc

Politicians are something else when they complain about their job they choose whole hearty to go into. As I tell people who complain about they Job, Quit and find a new one they like, and to Stop complaining about something they and only they, have the power to do something about it.

ilovesleep

zeds alive wrote: »

Regardless of what they should be paid , remember it's politicians who vote on their own salaries , would you vote to cut your own salary?

That's exactly what the nation did last febuary. We voted FG = austerity = hit our pockets, so yes we did vote for reduced incomes. The least they could do now is stop thinking about themselves and their own pockets only.

The new italian prime minister, out of respect to his country, forfeited his wage.

Godge

zero_hope wrote: »

There should be a cap on politicians salaries and they should get paid no more than minimum wage, this will scare away the sociopaths who's only intention is to live high on the hog on the hog while the tax payer's foot the bill.

I think this is a great idea, why should any politician get more than minimum wage seeing they are all worthless anyway and they should be happy to be paid anything at all.

If politicians are paid the minimum wage, you will attract two types of people

(1) Very rich people who have so much time on their hands, they can indulge themselves with politics on the side.
(2) Cranks and weirdos who cannot get a job paid more than the minimum wage and think it's a good idea to go into politics.

Couldn't we sometime have a rational debate about how to attract people with ideas into politics and how they should be remunerated.

Bagenal

limklad wrote: »

The Difference between you and a Politician is that they themselves choose to go before the people to represent the people. They choose that profession themselves. This is a profession that everybody see on TV, Newspapers, Internet etc for the amount of time they are seen in public. They were not force into that Job, unlike some public representatives in in certain city states of ancient greek, where someone was voted into a position against their will in a state position with little or no income from that position. I forget which ancient greek city state that was as all of them varied styles of Politics and punishment, even punished for not attending to even vote.

So no, I do not feel pity for Irish Politicians where they crib and whine and whinge like a kid on a basic Salary of €100,000 like John Brady (former FF TD) did http://www.thefreelibrary.com/I+can%27t+live+on+EUR100k,+claims+TD;+ELECTION+SNIPPETS.-a0248697287
And about how little it is and about how hard their job is. John Brady got €70,000 in expenses for the previous year. They put themselves forward for the Job. If they were dumb enough to believe it would be an easy job, then they should resign their seat out of sheer incompetence and leave someone else to take the position who wants that Job. Every time there is an increase or decrease in Politicians income they comes up with the same lame excuses.

I believe they are still been paid too much since much of their election expenses is paid for by the public and what they spend over that amount they themselves choose to spend that money.
They get a lot of unvouched expenses. The expense scandal of Ivor Calley and John O'Doughnoue expensive trips highlights the ignorants of Politicians on suffering of decent families who scrapped by with a hell of less a fraction of expense claims and expensive foreign trips.

I still remember watch the few late late shows back in the 90's of Padraig Flynn complaining about living on a lowely income of £100,000 (Punts) together with three houses, cars and housekeepers and travelled regularly between Europe and Home, and he still got expenses on top of that amount. He work in Brussels, yet still have a house in Dublin and Yet he still complained about the hassle involved with having three houses!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8T0Q03oJSc

Politicians are something else when they complain about their job they choose whole hearty to go into. As I tell people who complain about they Job, Quit and find a new one they like, and to Stop complaining about something they and only they, have the power to do something about it.

Excellent post, I thoroughly agree with you

anymore

Lockstep wrote: »

I fully agree that politicians shouldn't be dealing with pothole issues. Unfortunately, if they do not then they don't get elected and those who are willing to focus on such issues make up the Dáil.


Actually it's not. Politicians have their phone numbers posted for all to see and to get in contact with them. Unless you think they keep the phones switched off (and you can imagine the complaints that would appear if they did that) then, yes, they are constantly on demand.

When I go home from work, my time is my own. A politician does not have this. They are constantly on call and can be summoned to the Dáil for an emergency or have constituents constantly ringing with bizarre demands (and this does happen, as I can say from experience)


If you emailed her then I really don't think you can expect a prompt reply. If it was something important/urgent then phone her or call into her constituency office.
I dunno what industry you work in yourself but emails are not great ways to get into contact with anyone, especially politicians who would be getting a lot of emails anyway.


"Get out of politics?" Nice one.
You're right. Actions like that are mere nuisances and not unacceptable intrusions.
Noone should have to deal with crap like that. Unfortunately politicians do as if they don't, you can bet that the constituent will constantly be telling everyone about how unhelpful said politician is.
Check out a random TD's Facebook page for example. Chances are it will have people making unacceptable demands and criticisms (along with legit ones)

Sentences like that are fairly irritating "If you can't handle men grabbing your ass and making suggestive comments to you then don't be a waitress"
In that case, the problem is with people behaving inappropriately, not with the waitresses inability to tolerate such behaviour. Ditto with politicians.

Looking at this again, I am amazed that a mod for politics on an internet site is telling that email is not a good way to communicate ! Is this for real or are you joking ?
Tell me are you a member of a political party ?

anymore

Bagenal wrote: »

Excellent post, I thoroughly agree with you

Your post should printed in the newspapers.

Godge

zeds alive wrote: »

Regardless of what they should be paid , remember it's politicians who vote on their own salaries , would you vote to cut your own salary?

Politicians have voted in the last few years to cut their salaries to be fair to them. Before that their pay was set by an independent body, the Review Body on Higher Remuneration. Here is the link:

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Publications.aspx

Have a look at the recommended salary for the Taoiseach in this Report dating back to 2007 - €310,000.

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Documents/Report_No_42.pdf

Have a good look at the site and see how it was people from the private sector who set the high salaries for politicians and senior civil servants.

So to be fair to politicians from all sides, they were not directly involved in setting their high salaries. But don't let the facts get in the way of the rants on here.

Lockstep

anymore wrote: »

Looking at this again, I am amazed that a mod for politics on an internet site is telling that email is not a good way to communicate !

Why does this amaze you?
If you expect a response quickly, then no. It's fine if you want to raise a point but given the amount of emails that politicians receive, you'd be much better off calling to a politician's clinic, visiting their office or phoning them.
It's the same in business: if I want a response off a business, I phone them. If I want to contact them to complain about something or give feedback, I email them as I don't need/expect a quick reply.

anymore wrote: »

Is this for real or are you joking ?

I'd appreciate it if you addressed my points instead of being snide remarks. Please debate properly.

anymore wrote: »

Tell me are you a member of a political party ?

I am indeed, why?

Lockstep

limklad wrote: »

The Difference between you and a Politician is that they themselves choose to go before the people to represent the people. They choose that profession themselves. This is a profession that everybody see on TV, Newspapers, Internet etc for the amount of time they are seen in public. They were not force into that Job, unlike some public representatives in in certain city states of ancient greek, where someone was voted into a position against their will in a state position with little or no income from that position. I forget which ancient greek city state that was as all of them varied styles of Politics and punishment, even punished for not attending to even vote.

Very true. We choose our own jobs but neither does it mean we need to accept everything about them. In the example I gave earlier, barmaids and waitresses have to put up inappropriate comments and actions by customers (and male barstaff and waiters too though it is rarer in my opinion)
This does not mean this behavior is in any way acceptable, merely as it happens a lot with the job though.

limklad wrote: »

So no, I do not feel pity for Irish Politicians where they crib and whine and whinge like a kid on a basic Salary of €100,000 like John Brady (former FF TD) did http://www.thefreelibrary.com/I+can%27t+live+on+EUR100k,+claims+TD;+ELECTION+SNIPPETS.-a0248697287
And about how little it is and about how hard their job is. John Brady got €70,000 in expenses for the previous year. They put themselves forward for the Job. If they were dumb enough to believe it would be an easy job, then they should resign their seat out of sheer incompetence and leave someone else to take the position who wants that Job. Every time there is an increase or decrease in Politicians income they comes up with the same lame excuses.

Out of interest how much do you think they should be paid?
Fully agree the expenses system needs a shake up, but the issue here is with capping their salary at the minimum wage.
Noone is saying they should expect an easy job. However, neither should they be expected to put up with actions that would be unacceptable in any other job. Then again, politics is way more a life than a job as you can never switch off.

limklad wrote: »

I believe they are still been paid too much since much of their election expenses is paid for by the public and what they spend over that amount they themselves choose to spend that money.
They get a lot of unvouched expenses. The expense scandal of Ivor Calley and John O'Doughnoue expensive trips highlights the ignorants of Politicians on suffering of decent families who scrapped by with a hell of less a fraction of expense claims and expensive foreign trips.

Once again, your issue is with expenses (which I have no problem with)
Politicians can get a maximum of €8700 reclaimed on election campaigns (where they spend between €30-45k depending on the size of the constituency) so your claim that 'much of their election expenses is paid for by the public' is bogus.

limklad wrote: »

I still remember watch the few late late shows back in the 90's of Padraig Flynn complaining about living on a lowely income of £100,000 (Punts) together with three houses, cars and housekeepers and travelled regularly between Europe and Home, and he still got expenses on top of that amount. He work in Brussels, yet still have a house in Dublin and Yet he still complained about the hassle involved with having three houses!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8T0Q03oJSc

Yes, I fully agree, that was a disgrace.

limklad wrote: »

Politicians are something else when they complain about their job they choose whole hearty to go into. As I tell people who complain about they Job, Quit and find a new one they like, and to Stop complaining about something they and only they, have the power to do something about it.

You can use that logic for any job: noone should be allowed complain about their job as they should have expected it to begin with and if they don't like it, they should get a new one.
It would be impossible to stop the problems that politicians face, that I have currently outlined and a job that entails this much abuse and work needs to be compensated properly (I don't think anyone should have to work for free)
However, this thread deals with politicians being paid the minimum wage or even working for free which I strongly disagree with.
As I said earlier in the thread, I can understand the need to cut their salary (It will barely make a dent in public finances but Irish people need to see a measure of solidarity among their representatives) but to assume they should work or earn little to nothing would just lead to a type of person representing us that I would be uncomfortable with: those with the cash to run a high profile campaign and those who are willing to work for minimum wage for a high stress job (sure we might get a few saints but also a lot of dodgy people)

bmaxi

Godge wrote: »

Politicians have voted in the last few years to cut their salaries to be fair to them. Before that their pay was set by an independent body, the Review Body on Higher Remuneration. Here is the link:

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Publications.aspx

Have a look at the recommended salary for the Taoiseach in this Report dating back to 2007 - €310,000.

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Documents/Report_No_42.pdf

Have a good look at the site and see how it was people from the private sector who set the high salaries for politicians and senior civil servants.

So to be fair to politicians from all sides, they were not directly involved in setting their high salaries. But don't let the facts get in the way of the rants on here.

An independent body? Please!!!
Let's take a look at some of the members, incidentally, all appointed by the Government of the day.

Brian Hillery. Former FF TD and Senator.
Dermot Gleeson. Former AG and Government advisor
Liam St. John Devlin. Buddy of CJ Haughey, was instrumental in having Haughey's debts in AIB written off.
Vivienne Jupp. Recently landed the plum job as Chairperson of CIE, why?

With independents like them scrutinising your salary, who needs friends.

limklad

Lockstep wrote: »

Very true. We choose our own jobs but neither does it mean we need to accept everything about them. In the example I gave earlier, barmaids and waitresses have to put up inappropriate comments and actions by customers (and male barstaff and waiters too though it is rarer in my opinion)
This does not mean this behavior is in any way acceptable, merely as it happens a lot with the job though.

I hate Whingers for one and simple reason. They do not do anything to change their circumstance that they complain about. It is very easy to complain and bitch and whime and not do anything to change their position. I know plenty of people in the bar trade who leave their current jobs in bars that do not protect their staff from excessive abuse and move to better premises. You main reason to complain here is about certain customers inappropriate comments. This is not a Job issue. It is a respect issue, It can happen to me too as a paying customer or walking down the street, or at a match, so it is not a issue that is exclusive to Barstaff. Just to note is not just Males who give such inappropriate comments, women do too and very open about it.

Lockstep wrote:

Out of interest how much do you think they should be paid?
Fully agree the expenses system needs a shake up, but the issue here is with capping their salary at the minimum wage.
Noone is saying they should expect an easy job. However, neither should they be expected to put up with actions that would be unacceptable in any other job. Then again, politics is way more a life than a job as you can never switch off.

Again you do not understand that they choose the Job. If they do not like the Job then quit, simple as that.

Politics is a public service Job, not a job for life nor is it an entitlement like some Politicians think.

Lockstep wrote:

Once again, your issue is with expenses (which I have no problem with)
Politicians can get a maximum of €8700 reclaimed on election campaigns (where they spend between €30-45k depending on the size of the constituency) so your claim that 'much of their election expenses is paid for by the public' is bogus.

Lockstep wrote:

You can use that logic for any job: noone should be allowed complain about their job as they should have expected it to begin with and if they don't like it, they should get a new one.
It would be impossible to stop the problems that politicians face, that I have currently outlined and a job that entails this much abuse and work needs to be compensated properly (I don't think anyone should have to work for free)
However, this thread deals with politicians being paid the minimum wage or even working for free which I strongly disagree with.
As I said earlier in the thread, I can understand the need to cut their salary (It will barely make a dent in public finances but Irish people need to see a measure of solidarity among their representatives) but to assume they should work or earn little to nothing would just lead to a type of person representing us that I would be uncomfortable with: those with the cash to run a high profile campaign and those who are willing to work for minimum wage for a high stress job (sure we might get a few saints but also a lot of dodgy people)

There are far more stressful Job that a Politicians and who are in fear of their Jobs harzard. Fisherman in open seas who can be killed and lost in stormy seas. Contractors for Roads and building sites have far more dangerous Jobs with schedules been pushed to meet deadlines.

Nurses and Doctors In A&E who suffer abuse from drunk and drugged fuels patients and their families. Barristers and Solicitor and their families are abused and threaten by certain clients if they do not get off free in Court from the crimes they commit.
Gardai/Firemen/Paramedics are in dangerous Jobs and often receive abuse and threaten from members of the public while carrying out their duties.

Children and the vulnerable adults who are abused by others are in fear and uncomfortable because of their abusers in which Politicians do not have a proper system in place for proper protections from their male and female abusers. They earn far less than a Politicians and receive plenty of abuse.

Every year I hear harrowing stories. In every most jobs especially in the private sector your Salary is depend on your reviews and job performance. Politicians have no such fear on their wages as it will never get that low. As once former and late infamous Politician/Taoiseach said "We are living beyond our means" "The belt needs to be tightened". Here what a long term German MP have to say about out Politicians.

bbc wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7961849.stm#Germany
A German MP receives a monthly salary of 7,339 euros gross (£6,740).
On top of that, an MP gets extra expenses amounting to 3,782 euros (£3,473), which cover living or entertainment costs and an annual rail card.
The MP also receives 13,660 euros (£12,547) to run the office in the parliament and in the constituency, which includes salaries for staff.
The parliamentary rules governing what German MPs have to declare are pretty strict. An MP is obliged to declare to the president of the German parliament:

• The job he/she had before entering parliament
• How much money he/she earns from any extra paid job carried out while being an MP which exceeds 1,000 euros

German MPs have to register any shareholdings and company directorships, as well as membership of any associations or organisations.
They also have to register any plans for the future, regarding activities they intend to pursue after their parliamentary career.
The MPs' interests are published on the Bundestag's website, so the public can access the information.
But there is less detailed information about the extra money earned by MPs. The extra cash earned is presented in three categories, ranging from level 1 (meaning extra income from 1,000 - 3,500 euros) to level 3 (more than 7,000 euros each month).
There are no official rules for second homes which MPs may have.
If they have a second residence, they are still liable to pay tax like everyone else.
As for extra allowances, like other members of the public, German MPs have to fill out an annual tax return, which would include any allowance.

independent wrote:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/german-mps-shock-at-level-of-tds-pay-1676069.html
Hans Joachim Fuchtel was paid €92,000 to represent 280,000 people in Germany's Black Forest region, while our TDs get more than €100,000 to represent 25,000 people each.
"My constituency is 280,000 people. For a member of the Irish parliament, it's smaller but the salaries seem to be much better," he told the Irish Independent.


Mr Fuchtel is also limited to claiming a maximum of €44,400 in taxable expenses every year, whereas our TDs claim about €67,000 each.
He also gets an annual grant of €14,000 to pay for his staff -- yet TDs are supplied with both a full-time secretary and a parliamentary researcher at a cost to the taxpayer of at least €40,000. Overall that means he receives around €57,000 less in wages, expenses and allowances than his Irish equivalent.

In Westminster an MP to the House of Commons, corresponding to approximately one for every 92,000 people and they are considering to increase that ratio. They are planning to reduce their 650 to 600MP's
That is approx ~99,666 people per MP

We have way too many TD's for our Population size. We should Cut the number of TD's by half at the Maximum. We cannot afford their costs.

By not only by their counterparts in europe who have to canvass much larger areas for Elections and represent are shock our the number of Members of Parliament and their wages. We far exceed with both counts taking into account as a UK document have shown.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/briefings/snpc-05050.pdf

The excuses we(the public) receive over long periods for ever increasing pay in Politics was to attract the best and brightest. Well I can say with resounding confident, It failed miserably as our Economy and Politics has shown.

Norway which have a similar MP to People ratio in comparison to other nations always have the resources to fund their system. We do not and even with resource, they still pay their TD equivalents ~28% less than us.

You can read what Castlemaine South Kerry Politician did.

Irish Independent wrote:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0325/1224293046392.html
The Castlemaine-based politician leaves him with a “fairly good salary” of €46,000 plus expenses.

If it works for him then it can work for other Politicians unless you declare that he is not doing his job properly and is open to bribes.

It is unbelievable when Irish Politician is complains about how little s/he receives, yet their other counterparts in other countries are shock when they look at what our TD's get. Like the Irish TD's, they (other nation Politicians) too choose to run for that position and take and receive the same hassle and abuse from the public.

"If you cannot stand the fire, get out of the bloody fire"

anymore

Lockstep wrote: »

Why does this amaze you?
If you expect a response quickly, then no. It's fine if you want to raise a point but given the amount of emails that politicians receive, you'd be much better off calling to a politician's clinic, visiting their office or phoning them.
It's the same in business: if I want a response off a business, I phone them. If I want to contact them to complain about something or give feedback, I email them as I don't need/expect a quick reply.


I'd appreciate it if you addressed my points instead of being snide remarks. Please debate properly.


I am indeed, why?

I did indeed put the theory of phoning one LA to see if I could some respoense and ended up being given, on three occassions over a three week period, the complete runaround including being told things that were not ttrue. Now I use the email which gives me a permanent record of what is being said or not. It also provides you with prrof should it be necessary to contact the Ombudsman Office. I did ring them once and very helpful they were as was aslo the Citizens advice office which I rang.
I have had great experiences of dealing with companies using email - it works for the customer and it works for the businesses , i.e it works for efficient businesses who are serious about giving an efficiant service - clealr this does not apply to politicis which is a warped version of the real world.
Two years ago, i had the funny experience of an Euro MEP emailing me, completely unexpectedly, asking me a question to provide them some information - I was happy to oblige and it proved how efficient the email is for communicating.
And at this stage I do all ny travel arrangements by computer- just like so many people in the REAL ORDNANRY world. It jsut seems to prove that is the public which leads and the politicians who trudge reluctantly along.
I am in my middle years - getting into old age- and it strikes me that it is you who the rather old fashioned idea about the best way to communicate.
The fact that you are a member of a party possibly explains why you have this old fashioned notion of people trudging along to a clinic or phoning up Cont ' Offices as supplicants. Have to tell you the world has changed . It is even going to be easier to set up new political parties, so you ' Old Timeres' better start bring your ideas up to scratch. No wonder the Shinners have made such inroads so quickly.
I asked if you were a member of a party becasue you seem so defensive of politicians - it didnt strike me you were just an ordinary person moderating.

Lockstep

anymore wrote: »

I did indeed put the theory of phoning one LA to see if I could some respoense and ended up being given, on three occassions over a three week period, the complete runaround including being told things that were not ttrue. Now I use the email which gives me a permanent record of what is being said or not. It also provides you with prrof should it be necessary to contact the Ombudsman Office. I did ring them once and very helpful they were as was aslo the Citizens advice office which I rang.

You had one bad experience with a representative and are basing everything around that? Fair enough if it's your own personal experience but inductive reasoning is fairly shoddy.

anymore wrote: »

I have had great experiences of dealing with companies using email - it works for the customer and it works for the businesses , i.e it works for efficient businesses who are serious about giving an efficiant service - clealr this does not apply to politicis which is a warped version of the real world.
Two years ago, i had the funny experience of an Euro MEP emailing me, completely unexpectedly, asking me a question to provide them some information - I was happy to oblige and it proved how efficient the email is for communicating.

Have you? Strange. I tried emailing a few NG organisations (I was doing work for a volunteer organisation) and got not response until I tried ringing them. They get so many spam emails that they find it difficult to respond to them and so reccomend the phone, snailmail or visiting their offices.

anymore wrote: »

And at this stage I do all ny travel arrangements by computer- just like so many people in the REAL ORDNANRY world. It jsut seems to prove that is the public which leads and the politicians who trudge reluctantly along.

Booking travel arrangements and online shopping are not the same as dealing with a public representative.

anymore wrote: »

I am in my middle years - getting into old age- and it strikes me that it is you who the rather old fashioned idea about the best way to communicate.

Preferring to deal with people face to face is old fashioned? Strange, I thought it was the normal way of doing things. Unless you prefer living behind a keyboard, given that emails have problems such as security, no body language, delayed replies and the capability of mass-sending spam.

anymore wrote: »

The fact that you are a member of a party possibly explains why you have this old fashioned notion of people trudging along to a clinic or phoning up Cont ' Offices as supplicants. Have to tell you the world has changed . It is even going to be easier to set up new political parties, so you ' Old Timeres' better start bring your ideas up to scratch. No wonder the Shinners have made such inroads so quickly.

There is nothing demeaning or 'supplicating' about dealing with a representative instantly. It's how you deal with them normally, as has been done for years. New media has its uses but it's pretty sad to live behind a keyboard rather than interacting with people.

anymore wrote: »

I asked if you were a member of a party becasue you seem so defensive of politicians - it didnt strike me you were just an ordinary person moderating.

Oh, I'm a member of a political party. Not a politician though so I am just an 'ordinary person moderating'.
It doesn't affect me at all, just think the concept that politicians should work for the minimum wage is beyond silly.

Lockstep

limklad wrote: »

I hate Whingers for one and simple reason. They do not do anything to change their circumstance that they complain about. It is very easy to complain and bitch and whime and not do anything to change their position. I know plenty of people in the bar trade who leave their current jobs in bars that do not protect their staff from excessive abuse and move to better premises. You main reason to complain here is about certain customers inappropriate comments. This is not a Job issue. It is a respect issue, It can happen to me too as a paying customer or walking down the street, or at a match, so it is not a issue that is exclusive to Barstaff. Just to note is not just Males who give such inappropriate comments, women do too and very open about it.

Again you do not understand that they choose the Job. If they do not like the Job then quit, simple as that.

Politics is a public service Job, not a job for life nor is it an entitlement like some Politicians think.

Long story short, you seem to misunderstand my posts. I'm not saying politicians should be paid more (I have said a few times they should take a paycut) I am pointing out the stress in their job which would make paying them the minimum wage extremely foolish.

I fully agree there is a respect issue, one which extends to politicians. The difference is that you can be kicked out of a pub or restaurant for being obnoxious or disrespectful. Politicians have a tough time doing this as their employees are the people themselves. Kick a crank out of your office and they'll kick up a huge fuss.

By the way, it's strange that your bartender friends are so easily able to find work when they dislike one place. I'm a bartender myself and the market at the moment is anything but easy.

limklad wrote: »

There are far more stressful Job that a Politicians and who are in fear of their Jobs harzard. Fisherman in open seas who can be killed and lost in stormy seas. Contractors for Roads and building sites have far more dangerous Jobs with schedules been pushed to meet deadlines.

Nurses and Doctors In A&E who suffer abuse from drunk and drugged fuels patients and their families. Barristers and Solicitor and their families are abused and threaten by certain clients if they do not get off free in Court from the crimes they commit.
Gardai/Firemen/Paramedics are in dangerous Jobs and often receive abuse and threaten from members of the public while carrying out their duties.

Children and the vulnerable adults who are abused by others are in fear and uncomfortable because of their abusers in which Politicians do not have a proper system in place for proper protections from their male and female abusers. They earn far less than a Politicians and receive plenty of abuse.

First of all, I said it was a stressful job, not a dangerous one (although I do think guards, firemen, fisherman and so on should be paid more
As for the stress, jobs like lawyers can simply refuse to work for people. Politicians cannot (well technically they can like Scully did but that doesn't turn out well)
Likewise, guards and medics can get the abusive arrested. While politicians CAN do this too, they'd need to be very careful as it will kick up a massive stink.

limklad wrote: »

Every year I hear harrowing stories. In every most jobs especially in the private sector your Salary is depend on your reviews and job performance. Politicians have no such fear on their wages as it will never get that low. As once former and late infamous Politician/Taoiseach said "We are living beyond our means" "The belt needs to be tightened". Here what a long term German MP have to say about out Politicians.

Politicians have job reviews: they're called elections and they can happen anytime between a month after an election to the full 5 years. That determines if they get paid or not.

limklad wrote: »

In Westminster an MP to the House of Commons, corresponding to approximately one for every 92,000 people and they are considering to increase that ratio. They are planning to reduce their 650 to 600MP's
That is approx ~99,666 people per MP

We have way too many TD's for our Population size. We should Cut the number of TD's by half at the Maximum. We cannot afford their costs.

By not only by their counterparts in europe who have to canvass much larger areas for Elections and represent are shock our the number of Members of Parliament and their wages. We far exceed with both counts taking into account as a UK document have shown.
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons/lib/research/briefings/snpc-05050.pdf

The excuses we(the public) receive over long periods for ever increasing pay in Politics was to attract the best and brightest. Well I can say with resounding confident, It failed miserably as our Economy and Politics has shown.

Norway which have a similar MP to People ratio in comparison to other nations always have the resources to fund their system. We do not and even with resource, they still pay their TD equivalents ~28% less than us.

You can read what Castlemaine South Kerry Politician did.


If it works for him then it can work for other Politicians unless you declare that he is not doing his job properly and is open to bribes.

It is unbelievable when Irish Politician is complains about how little s/he receives, yet their other counterparts in other countries are shock when they look at what our TD's get. Like the Irish TD's, they (other nation Politicians) too choose to run for that position and take and receive the same hassle and abuse from the public.

"If you cannot stand the fire, get out of the bloody fire"

Your information is pretty bogus in fairness. For one thing, TDs get a basic salary of around €92k (minister and so on get more whereas others get pensions which they really shouldn't be getting) as TD wages have come down since 2010. Looking at your British government source, our politicians wages are fairly within the norms.
Also, your comparison between Irish and other wages doesn't take the Cost of living into account
Whereas politicians in places like Norway get free accommodation in the city included in their job.

Irish politicians complaining they get too little is fairly uncommon (and I'm not defending this either) I am however, sayng that the idea they can go onto the minimum wage is utterly silly for the nature of their job.

RE our number of representatives, yes, we are small so we are overly represented. Our number of representatives per head isn't out of kilter with other small countries like Malta, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Cyprus, Croatia and so on.
Looks like we'll be abolishing the Seanad next year as well which further lowers the ratio.


Oh, as for your claim that we cannot afford our politicians, if we halved TD pay, we would save less than 7m a year (plus they pay taxes on that income) A mere drop in the public finances.