Road Works - One lane into two

L-M

Just wondering what are people's opinions on this.

You're on a two lane road, and the road works narrow into one.

Do you,

Stay in the inside "driving lane" and be patient

Do you skip the already patient queue and drive towards the road works and expect to be left in?

I saw a van almost crash into a car in the overtaking lane today (that was trying to get into the driving lane) as he was trying to skip as much of the traffic as possible and effectively creating a third lane for himself, hitting the grass verge and ramming past.

I always stay in the driving lane, and wait patiently for my turn to get through, if some ignornant (IMO) so so skips the queue I see no reason why I should have to leave them in.

CiniO

If it's like the left land is closed at some point, so everyone needs to change to the right lane, then what very often happens is most drivers move to right lane as soon as possible, while few drivers stay in left lane passing all cars waiting on right lane, and change in last moment.
Usually this guys are considered a dodgers, as they skip a lot of traffic.
On the other hand, all drivers queuing on right lane cause a traffic jam to be twice as long as it should be, and by this they might obstruct traffic earlier.

Ideally there should be 2 rows of cars on each lane approximately the same lenght, and they should join the narrow part one by one (one from each lane, then another from other lane) - like the zip.

In Germany there are traffic signs forcing such behavior

L-M

This was the outside lane closed, everyone seem to wait patiently but the odd few just skipped every single car and rammed there way in at the end.

To the driver of the 09 Passat who I observed skip the entire queue and then tried and failed to ram his way in front of me, I salute him with one finger

mrsoundie

Limerick man wrote: »

This was the outside lane closed, everyone seem to wait patiently but the odd few just skipped every single car and rammed there way in at the end.

To the driver of the 09 Passat who I observed skip the entire queue and then tried and failed to ram his way in front of me, I salute him with one finger

Or what myself and a few friends used to do when the Ennis bypass was not opened. At the Clare Inn exit when it became one lane heading for the roundabout, we drove two abreast along the Dual Carriageway, great fun for us, the jumpers were not happy (ha, ha, ha).

Mint Sauce

Exact same when people dart down the right hand turn lane, and expect to be let in back in just before the lights to go straight on.

:mad:

CiniO

Limerick man wrote: »

This was the outside lane closed, everyone seem to wait patiently but the odd few just skipped every single car and rammed there way in at the end.

So everyone was waiting on the inside lane, and outside lane was empty?
And then through this empty lane few odd drivers skipped?
Is that what you meant?
Or were there queues on both lanes, and few odd drivers skipped thorough somewhere else (hard shoulder, etc)?

L-M

CiniO wrote: »

So everyone was waiting on the inside lane, and outside lane was empty?
And then through this empty lane few odd drivers skipped?
Is that what you meant?
Or were there queues on both lanes, and few odd drivers skipped thorough somewhere else (hard shoulder, etc)?

No, your first point. Everyone was in the inside and people left the inside lane, skipped the queue and re joined it at the end.

mfceiling

I would love to personally kill anyone who does this.
Same on the m50...people cutting across 3 lanes of traffic to hit their slip road.
Don't get me started on people driving up the outside of a lane of traffic at the roundabout at the top of my road then nearly getting lamped as they cut across the cars going straight on..when this happens to me I keep the same speed as them and make my way to as close to the white line as possible...cue a braking session from Mr I Don't Queue as he tries to execute his illegal manoeuvre...manners you bunch of b*stards!!

mrsoundie

I think the real point is, if everyone just waited, stay in the left hand and drove without having to slow down or even stop to let drivers and just waited like everyone else then there would be no queue.

Simple.

CiniO

Limerick man wrote: »

No, your first point. Everyone was in the inside and people left the inside lane, skipped the queue and re joined it at the end.

All right...

But unfortunately that behaviour is against the rules which are forces almost everywhere in Europe.
Drivers should stay in both lanes, and do a zip on the end, when 2 lanes merge into one. First off all this eliminates the skipper, and secondly causes a queue twice shorter (as the same amount of cars are spreaded in two lanes instead of one).

To be honest, if there were more of those so called skippers, it all would work well, as both lanes would be used.

I always tent to go with this idea, and use both lanes - generally tending to go into the one with less cars on it. I'm sure someone might call me a skipper as well, but I can't see anything wrong with it. If everyone would start skipping like that, there wouldn't be skippers anymore.

CiniO

mrsoundie wrote: »

Or what myself and a few friends used to do when the Ennis bypass was not opened. At the Clare Inn exit when it became one lane heading for the roundabout, we drove two abreast along the Dual Carriageway, great fun for us, the jumpers were not happy (ha, ha, ha).

What do you mean by two abreast?

corktina

if theres two lanes, I'd expect the two lanes to merge at the point where one of them is closed, like a zip.
It doesnt make sense to merge before that point as it just makes the closed section of road even longer.

Tazio

corktina wrote: »

if theres two lanes, I'd expect the two lanes to merge at the point where one of them is closed, like a zip.
It doesnt make sense to merge before that point as it just makes the closed section of road even longer.

Exactly.. seen this "late merging" practiced on continent.. if everyone is polite it works well.

largepants

Honestly can't see anything wrong with this sort of behaviour. I don't regard it as q skipping at all. Its really the same no matter what. Adjust your speed and let the zip effect take its course. Should be no problem with q's then.

marryabroad

i drive for a living and see this all the time. there's 2 lanes there for a reason! use them and merge when you reach the obstruction, simples!

i fcukin can't stand it when drivers act like sheep and all fall into the left lane and then get pissed when people drive up the outside lane. they're doing nothing wrong!!

i do exactly that, i drive up the unblocked lane and merge in turn at the end, not barge in like some idiots do. god help you if you have the cheek to 'wave' at me with the middle finger! THEN I ACT THE CNUT!!!! i'll pull in on top of you and let you deal with 44 tonnes of artic you smart little pr*ck

101sean

Same problem here and the UK, there's sometimes merge in turn signs but as it's never been common practice to zip it doesn't happen, everyone sits in one lane giving daggers to anyone going down the outside.

Queues would be a lot shorter if merging in turn became common practice.

dr.fuzzenstein

As said above by CiniO, on the continent everyone will continue until just before the two lanes merge and then the zipper system kicks in. Easy, beautiful and works everytime.
God, I miss civilization!
The problem here is that there's two trains of thought.
The first is to move over way before the two lanes merge and wait patiently.
The second is a mixture of people trying to use the late zipper maneuver and people who will just go to the very top and literally ram their way in.
The thing is that a lot of Irish people don't read the rules, since they have no regard for them and then just make up their own rules in their head.
This is due to lack of training and enforcement and during the roadworks on the Limerick to Ennis bypass, when there where several places where two lanes had to merge, led to daily, ugly scenes. One guy nearly rammed me and the barrier to get past me (I was already way past the point of merging).
It's a bit of a joke TBF, but I can't see it change anytime soon.

L-M

Queues will be shorter but it's still going to take the same length of time for the car to pass true.

Actually, no, it would be a shorter time. If everyone was in the one lane it would just slide through the gap, rather than people stopping, hesitating, braking, trying to cut in etc.

loobylou

Limerick man wrote: »

Queues will be shorter but it's still going to take the same length of time for the car to pass true.

Actually, no, it would be a shorter time. If everyone was in the one lane it would just slide through the gap, rather than people stopping, hesitating, braking, trying to cut in etc.

As Limerickman says. If traffic merged early at normal driving speed (say at where the first lane closed ahead sign is), then traffic would move through the closure at near to normal speed.
When people drive right up to the point where the lane is closed, the merge, (zipper or otherwise) is made from a standing start,thus slowing the traffic for everyone.

ThisRegard

Why not just get rid of any extra lanes so, by your reckoning they're not needed as they all reduce to one eventually somewhere along the way. It's people that don't allow the traffic in the ending lane to merge that are the real idiots, they're the ones that cause the stop/start you see rather than allow the traffic to flow smooth and get their knickers in a twist whilst being in the wrong. You shouldn't need signs, it's common sense.

Nobody is 'cutting' in, they're simply merging, would you force traffic merging onto a motorway to stop in the belief they're skipping you?

L-M

ThisRegard wrote: »

Why not just get rid of any extra lanes so, by your reckoning they're not needed as they all reduce to one eventually somewhere along the way. It's people that don't allow the traffic in the ending lane to merge that are the real idiots, they're the ones that cause the stop/start you see rather than allow the traffic to flow smooth and get their knickers in a twist whilst being in the wrong. You shouldn't need signs, it's common sense.

Nobody is 'cutting' in, they're simply merging, would you force traffic merging onto a motorway to stop in the belief they're skipping you?

What? That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm nothing about? Where does every motorway end at one lane? There are slip roads off which don't obstruct traffic!

MyStubbleItches

ThisRegard wrote: »

Nobody is 'cutting' in, they're simply merging

This simply is not true.

Fair enough, most people are probably merging in a civilized way (these are easy to spot as being the ones who indicate and wait until a car leaves room for it to come in, usually it happens nice and gently and happens before the end of the lane thats closed). The rest of the w***ers put the boot down, tear to the very top of the queue, slam on the brakes and try to bully their way in. You're not getting past me you ignorant p**k.

To the poster who said I (generic) can deal with 44 tons of artic, no problem, I will. You pull on top of me mate and I'll just hold my line, wait til you hit me and see you in court.

I see this happening every day at the western end of the Ballincollig bypass at rush hour. A*sh***s tearing out to beat one car, breaking the speed limit and barely squeezing past on the hatched lines. Then they're sitting in the same position at the same speed as the rest of us all the way out the road. Ignorant dumbasses.

This really gets my goat, can't you tell? :mad:

ThisRegard

This thread didn't start because of the people who barge in, it's about people who stay in the lane which eventually ends and are perceived to be skipping, read the first post.

L-M

ThisRegard wrote: »

This thread didn't start because of the people who barge in, it's about people who stay in the lane which eventually ends and are perceived to be skipping, read the first post.

It's the same thing, skipping the queue forces on to barge in.

If you were in a queue for a shop, and a new till opened, would the last person in the queue get to go to the new till?

MyStubbleItches

ThisRegard wrote: »

This thread didn't start because of the people who barge in, it's about people who stay in the lane which eventually ends and are perceived to be skipping, read the first post.

I did, did you?

ThisRegard

There's not enough roll eyes for that comment. edit Limerickmans
This people is why driving can be so frustrating, this self righteousness that nobody gets ahead of me or make that move, even if they're perfectly entitled too, and I'll do my damnedness to stop them doing so

L-M

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's not enough roll eyes for that comment.

This people is why driving can be so frustrating, this self righteousness that nobody gets ahead of me or make that move, even if they're perfectly entitled too, and I'll do my damnedness to stop them doing so

I think you're trolling, make your point or don't bother posting at all.

Your posting at the moment is like that of Father Jacks "Yes" and "That would be an ecumenical matter".

ThisRegard

It's simple, you said you'll sit in the left lane in the example where the right lane closes further up the road and wait, but you have a problem with everyone else who don't wait behind you and continue on until the right lane ends, a point I made, and other posters acknowledge, to be wrong.

Now maybe you're missing the nose on your face because it's not the response you want so to simplify it, they're doing nothing wrong bearing in mind you weren't initially talking about people who aggressively barge in but those that simply continue onto the end of the lane.

L-M

People who aggressively barge in, have to, because they've just skipped the queue.

MyStubbleItches

Limerick man wrote: »

Just wondering what are people's opinions on this.

You're on a two lane road, and the road works narrow into one.

Do you,

Stay in the inside "driving lane" and be patient

Do you skip the already patient queue and drive towards the road works and expect to be left in?

I saw a van almost crash into a car in the overtaking lane today (that was trying to get into the driving lane) as he was trying to skip as much of the traffic as possible and effectively creating a third lane for himself, hitting the grass verge and ramming past.

I always stay in the driving lane, and wait patiently for my turn to get through, if some ignornant (IMO) so so skips the queue I see no reason why I should have to leave them in.

Read the post.

glic71rods46t0

Limerick man wrote: »

I think you're trolling, make your point or don't bother posting at all.

Your posting at the moment is like that of Father Jacks "Yes" and "That would be an ecumenical matter".

I think its more of a simple matter rather than an ecumenical matter, simple in that you're wrong - ThisRegard is right

ThisRegard

Limerick man wrote: »

People who aggressively barge in, have to, because they've just skipped the queue.

You just don't understand do you, they're in another lane and therefore not in your queue, if the lane they're in is empty or lighter so be it, only a fool would pull out of an empty lane to sit in traffic further back. From your comments you're obviously the type of driver who attaches themselves to the bumper of the car infront when it comes to lane merges, no clue.

L-M

ThisRegard wrote: »

You just don't understand do you, they're in another lane and therefore not in your queue, if the lane they're in is empty or lighter so be it, only a fool would pull out of an empty lane to sit in traffic further back.

You're missing my point.

If everyone stayed in the one lane, they would progress through the road works in one simple line, there would be no need for breaking etc. causing delays are frustration to other drives, it would run smoothly.

Just like in a car, if you restrict the airflow, you won't get full power. If you open the inflow so that it's all the same size it flow much better. It's common sense.

ThisRegard

Christ, why would you do that ? Use both lanes and merge like a zipper, that's common sense.

CiniO

Limerick man wrote: »

You're missing my point.

If everyone stayed in the one lane, they would progress through the road works in one simple line, there would be no need for breaking etc. causing delays are frustration to other drives, it would run smoothly.

If there was 2 lanes before, and you need everyone in one lane before roadworks, so no matter where it happens, some people have to change lane. It already causes delays, braking, confusion, frustration.
You are proposing to change lane to the correct one way ahead.
We are proposing to change lane in the last moment before the lanes merge.
No matter which option you choose, it will cause a delays.
Through experiments though, it's proven that it works better, faster and smoother, when people use both lanes, and merge like a zip on the end.

glic71rods46t0

Limerick man wrote: »

You're missing my point.

If everyone stayed in the one lane, they would progress through the road works in one simple line, there would be no need for breaking etc. causing delays are frustration to other drives, it would run smoothly.

Just like in a car, if you restrict the airflow, you won't get full power. If you open the inflow so that it's all the same size it flow much better. It's common sense.

So by that logic, why have two lanes at all? Just keep everything single lane, shure theres no need for btraking etc....it would run smoothly:rolleyes:
Have you been tipping back some of grandpa's old "cough medicine"?

L-M

CiniO wrote: »

If there was 2 lanes before, and you need everyone in one lane before roadworks, so no matter where it happens, some people have to change lane. It already causes delays, braking, confusion, frustration.
You are proposing to change lane to the correct one way ahead.
We are proposing to change lane in the last moment before the lanes merge.
No matter which option you choose, it will cause a delays.
Through experiments though, it's proven that it works better, faster and smoother, when people use both lanes, and merge like a zip on the end.

No, if people were informed well in advance they could gradually blend in to open spaces rather that have to make instant decisions once they reach the road works/lane closure.

fpir25ua3hwcsz wrote: »

So by that logic, why have two lanes at all? Just keep everything single lane, shure theres no need for btraking etc....it would run smoothly:rolleyes:
Have you been tipping back some of grandpa's old "cough medicine"?

No, that's completely irrelevant. I'm not even going to argue that point because it makes such little sense/

MyStubbleItches

ThisRegard wrote: »

Christ, why would you do that ? Use both lanes and merge like a zipper, that's common sense.

That's fine, it would all work very nicely if that happened but it doesn't because some people just want to skip the queue. Some people pass out where the zipper type merging is happening in a sensible fashion a few car lengths before the end of the lane. That's just plain ridiculous, ignorant and dangerous and an example of that is what Limerick Man described in his first post.

CiniO

Limerick man wrote: »

No, if people were informed well in advance they could gradually blend in to open spaces rather that have to make instant decisions once they reach the road works/lane closure.

There's no need for any instant decision.
You just merge on the end - one from the left, one from the right.
Not even a reason to slow down.

Take a look at this animation:
http://www.prawko-kwartnik.info/anima/zamek.html

mdebets

Limerick man wrote: »

You're missing my point.

If everyone stayed in the one lane, they would progress through the road works in one simple line, there would be no need for breaking etc. causing delays are frustration to other drives, it would run smoothly.

Just like in a car, if you restrict the airflow, you won't get full power. If you open the inflow so that it's all the same size it flow much better. It's common sense.

Actually, quite the opposite is true.
Look here and here for a study that shows that a late merge is actually speeds up the traffic by up to 15%.

mdebets

CiniO wrote: »

There's no need for any instant decision.
You just merge on the end - one from the left, one from the right.
Not even a reason to slow down.

Take a look at this animation:
http://www.prawko-kwartnik.info/anima/zamek.html

Or look at this one, that shows what happens due to the behaviour (not letting people in, closing gaps, etc.) expressed by people here, who don't understand how traffic flows work.

MyStubbleItches

All those diagrams/animations are fine and good when you're dealing with civilized drivers. BUT, we've all seen it, busy road, lane closure ahead and the odd car in the fast lane isn't content with merging in when its their turn. They'll drive up the arse of the car in front, then when they merge in as per their turn, the idiot boots past them and tries to make up another car length or two instead of merging in the second or third space behind that car.

A bit of civility would go a long way, probably on both parts but in my experience its usually the asshole who won't wait for/take his turn to merge in who causes the hassle as the drivers behind get cranky at his ignorance and make a point of not letting him in.

Mc Love

Same thing happens on Dock Road in Limerick, there is two lanes and a merge, most people get into the left lane as soon as they can, whereas a few others will go up to the merge point and try to merge.

Some days I do both. :pac:

TestTransmission

Mc Love wrote: »

Same thing happens on Dock Road in Limerick, there is two lanes and a merge, most people get into the left lane as soon as they can, whereas a few others will go up to the merge point and try to merge.

Some days I do both. :pac:

A few others?I always do it and never have any hassle.It's called merging for a reason

Aug2009

CiniO wrote: »

If it's like the left land is closed at some point, so everyone needs to change to the right lane, then what very often happens is most drivers move to right lane as soon as possible, while few drivers stay in left lane passing all cars waiting on right lane, and change in last moment.
Usually this guys are considered a dodgers, as they skip a lot of traffic.
On the other hand, all drivers queuing on right lane cause a traffic jam to be twice as long as it should be, and by this they might obstruct traffic earlier.

Ideally there should be 2 rows of cars on each lane approximately the same lenght, and they should join the narrow part one by one (one from each lane, then another from other lane) - like the zip.

In Germany there are traffic signs forcing such behavior

Every second one of course!

John C

Theory and practise in Germany

This "zipper rule" applies when one lane ends and merges into
another, each vehicle in the through lane must allow one vehicle
from the truncated lane to merge in.

Example: The right hand lane ends. This is signposted. Up
to the sign "lane ends 100 m ahead" the vehicle stays
in the right hand lane. He indicates left turn and a car in the
left hand lane allows him to merge into this lane.

This also applies where there is no sign showing "lane ends".
E.g. a car accident on the right hand lane and traffic is
built up on the left hand lane. Let's say that this right hand
lane is empty. He drives to at least 100m of the accident, this
is his merge point. He then indicates left and the drivers
on the left hand lane allow him to merge.

That is the theory. Sometimes drivers in Germany do not
understand this Zipper principle. The above
person driving up to the merge point is seen as a queue jumper.
Occasionally drivers do not allow him to merge, despite that it's his right.

marryabroad

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

This simply is not true.

Fair enough, most people are probably merging in a civilized way (these are easy to spot as being the ones who indicate and wait until a car leaves room for it to come in, usually it happens nice and gently and happens before the end of the lane thats closed). The rest of the w***ers put the boot down, tear to the very top of the queue, slam on the brakes and try to bully their way in. You're not getting past me you ignorant p**k.

To the poster who said I (generic) can deal with 44 tons of artic, no problem, I will. You pull on top of me mate and I'll just hold my line, wait til you hit me and see you in court.

I see this happening every day at the western end of the Ballincollig bypass at rush hour. A*sh***s tearing out to beat one car, breaking the speed limit and barely squeezing past on the hatched lines. Then they're sitting in the same position at the same speed as the rest of us all the way out the road. Ignorant dumbasses.

This really gets my goat, can't you tell? :mad:

you'd think this would be the smart move wouldn't you? i had similar situation 2 years ago on dock road in limerick where 2 lanes merge. i tipped away down the outside and at the end there was a gap about 1.5 car lengths in left lane. i had indicator on to merge and started manoeuvre. fella in honda accord decided 'fcuk him' and shoved in the boot.

my low-loader caught front corner of him and made bits of him. cue lots of ranting and name calling.

long-story-short, went to court and mister smart arse lost his case because there was a merge situation and because i had already started merging, judge deemed me to be in the right and had done absolutely nothing wrong. judge said the accord driver was extremely obnoxious in his manner of driving. think before you shove in the boot! and note, damage to the accord €4750, damage to my trailer €25 for can of paint to cover the red marks left from the accord.

largepants

Me thinks that some people on this thread who rant and rave over so called q skippers are actually the aggressors themselves. It obviously by a certain person post here that they are a prime candidate for road rage in the near future. Chill out and try the zipper effect and see how good it actually works. Go on...you know you want to.

MyStubbleItches

marryabroad wrote: »

you'd think this would be the smart move wouldn't you? i had similar situation 2 years ago on dock road in limerick where 2 lanes merge. i tipped away down the outside and at the end there was a gap about 1.5 car lengths in left lane. i had indicator on to merge and started manoeuvre. fella in honda accord decided 'fcuk him' and shoved in the boot.

my low-loader caught front corner of him and made bits of him. cue lots of ranting and name calling.

long-story-short, went to court and mister smart arse lost his case because there was a merge situation and because i had already started merging, judge deemed me to be in the right and had done absolutely nothing wrong. judge said the accord driver was extremely obnoxious in his manner of driving. think before you shove in the boot! and note, damage to the accord €4750, damage to my trailer €25 for can of paint to cover the red marks left from the accord.

That's absolutely fair enough, I'd agree you were right in this instance. The Accord had left a significant gap for you and tried to close it as soon as you tried to aavail of it. He's the d**k in this situation and got his just desserts. What I'm talking about is people pulling into you while they're abreast of you, different story.

For the record, I consider truck drivers in general to be the most courteous and skilled drivers on Irish roads, the notable exceptions being quite a few drivers with a certain very large trucking company that like to be movin on.

marryabroad

MyStubbleItches wrote: »

That's absolutely fair enough, I'd agree you were right in this instance. The Accord had left a significant gap for you and tried to close it as soon as you tried to aavail of it. He's the d**k in this situation and got his just desserts. What I'm talking about is people pulling into you while they're abreast of you, different story.

For the record, I consider truck drivers in general to be the most courteous and skilled drivers on Irish roads, the notable exceptions being quite a few drivers with a certain very large trucking company that like to be movin on.

ah give them a break, sure they can't speak english and are used to driving on the other side of the road


as for the pulling in bit, i see what you're saying and i agree 100%.

manners cost nothing. pulling in on top of people when you're alongside is bad manners, likewise is sticking to the back bumper of car in front so as not to allow another driver in.

Jimmy Bottlehead

I never have any problems merging, let one go, then you go, it's just common sense and manners.

What gets on my tits though, is the aforementioned pricks who use a right turn lane all the way to a junction, then expect to merge left into the 'straight on' lane.
I just don't let them in. We've all had to spend time queueing, your time is no more important than mine, and I'm more than happy to see you stuck and waiting until the light goes red and you're stuck in a junction box.