Girl Suicide - not really talked about

CDfm

The Kate Fitzgerald article in the IT has caused a bit of a fuss.

OPINION: I did not expect to be met with hostility at work after an attempt to take my own life I DON’T have all of the answers. This, if said by any “normal” person, is comforting, freeing. The weight of responsibility, of questioning one’s own judgment is lifted, and a mind that is commonly accepted as being logical, as being mentally sound may find a way to embrace this if only for selfish reasons, for their own sanity. I am a depressive. I am also a professional, a consultant. I am one who is hired to look in control, organised, polished, almost perfect at all times and to represent a point of view unflinchingly at all times. I wish that I were writing this primarily as a consultant and secondarily as a depressive, but I have come to realise that the former is as much a part of my person as the latter. In a world where everything must appear in black and white in order to be understood or accepted, it has taken me six years to put words to it, and thus to make it real. I do this partially for the sake of catharsis, but mostly in the hope that I will reach those who have not yet accepted this disease – those who live with depressives, those who love depressives, those who employ depressives. Some months ago I attempted to take my own life. When I failed I was encouraged by friends to voluntarily check into a hospital – they said they no longer could take care of me. I signed a form with an unknown level of alcohol and pills in my system. For all intents and purposes, my admission was voluntary. In reality I was too mortified not to follow the wishes of my seemingly put-upon friends, not to survive for the sake of my job, and far too blinded by the smoke and mirrors of depression and self-inflicted harm to realise what I was doing. It is important to note that I love my job, and, crucially, I love my employers like a family. When I could not get a firm answer as to when they would let me leave the hospital, I checked myself out, against medical advice, left in a taxi at midnight with my clothes packed in plastic bags. All because, I told myself and later my director, I wanted to go back to work. More than the urge not to live at all, I didn’t want to live without my work. Mine was not a work-related illness. At least not before I entered the hospital. However, when I was released and when I returned to my office, things became different. I knew it would be difficult to explain to my employer, and I knew it would be difficult for them to understand an illness with no visible symptoms. I did not, however, expect that I would be met with casual hostility, with passive-aggressive references to my mental incapacity for my profession, and my apparently perceived “plan” to leave the company entirely in the lurch. When I returned from my two-week stint in mental health limbo, where doctors and nurses admonished me for my apparent need for control, my definition of myself through the value of my trade, I expected to be accepted back as the hard-working employee I have always been. I do not blame my employer. Ultimately those who have not suffered from the illness do not know how to approach it in others – even those who have suffered from it may find it difficult. When I returned I found myself pitying my manager who met the story of my misery with confusion and the suggestion that I could not be trusted with seniority. I was accused of planning my absence. Every question seemed posed with the hope that it might bolster a preconceived notion. Clearly, they had no idea what to do. Much of what my employer has done and said since my absence has been illegal. And I do not think for a minute that what my employer did was an isolated incident. I know this article must be anonymous, and I have no interest in shaming those I work tirelessly for. Their interests are still inextricably entwined with my own. However, if Ireland is ever to address the alarming rate of death by suicide – 527 in 2010, many as young as I, and who knows how many attempt or consider or plan for it – everyone must remember that they do not have all of the answers. Because we can’t afford it. Every day a company loses a valuable employee and every day a family loses one they love. At a time when small, medium and large companies rely on dedicated staff for the vision and drive to pull them through challenging times, these are not losses we can risk taking on the chin. I have not done everything right. However, I am working to the stage where I know not having all the answers does not mean that I have failed, does not mean that I am crazy, and certainly does not take away from my ability to do my job well. The illness that follows me every day, that keeps me awake at night, that even sometimes drives me to be better at my job and seek the appreciation of my employer and those who rely on me to succeed – I have accepted that it must be managed, but it cannot be managed without the help and encouragement of those I work for. I write in the hope that this grabs someone, anyone, and makes them think twice about what they may lose by not asking the question. Seek guidance. Seek insight. For when you ask a question – a true question – only then can you receive an answer. And answers.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/muvjk/original_kate_fitzgerald_article/

For those who do not know the story, Kate anonymously wrote an article for the IT and subsequently committed suicide.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2011/11/30

Patterns of Suicide Among Young Women in Ireland 1980-2005

Since the beginning of the1980s the overall Irish suicide rate has doubled, with most of this rise being attributable to suicide
among men. Although male suicide increased substantially during the course of the Irish economic boom, this period also
experienced a significant rise in the rate of young female suicide. In fact, figures released from the Central Statistics Office
reveal that the rate of suicide among women aged 15-24 years doubled during this period.


http://geary.ucd.ie/behaviour/index.php/Home/Investigating-Factors-Contributing-to-Suicide-Amongst-Women.html

I have a college going daughter and son and they have been untouched by this, in a way that none of their friends have tried it.

Their Pa has not been so lucky and I lost a close friend last year part of a cluster. Hit me like a hammer it did.

We should definitely be lots more open about depression and mental health.

Zombrex

I don't think that it is not talked about, it is just that suicide rates among women, even at their worst, are significantly less than men.

And where as the suicide rate among women did rise during the boom, that rise was tiny, where as with men it shot up.

Also by international standards the suicide rate in Ireland for women is not significantly higher than other countries, where as it is for men.

So it is really just a case of priorities, male suicide is a much bigger issue than female suicide and thus gets more wide spread attention.

Of course at the end of the day it still comes back to depression in an individual, and of course there should be support for all individuals suffering from depression.

jonniebgood1

I guess the problem with female suicide is less discussed as it is less common than males. There are many problems with the discussion of suicide in general aand there is still a stigma involved. It is not just a problem with Ireland either
http://www.imt.ie/features-opinion/2010/10/time-to-address-our-rising-suicide-rates.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/28/suicide-rate-on-rise
http://economiccrisis.us/2010/08/rising-suicide-rate-worldwide-linked-economic-crisis-expert/

With rates rising it would seem to be a society problem, as our society has 'developed' this has increased. Why this is the case would be an good way to start looking at this. Recognising the problem should be the first step.

irishh_bob

female suicide is not unheard of but just like ( for example ) droughts in ireland , it doesnt get much mention because its quite rare

CDfm

Here is a link to a slideshow from UCD.

Maybe guys have less protective circumstances than girls

http://www.nosp.ie/survey_07.pdf

Nonetheless , it is over like 20 % and doubled from what it was.

Maybe we should call it youth suicide and say it can happen to girls too but the numbers are not insignificant.

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

Here is a link to a slideshow from UCD.

Maybe guys have less protective circumstances than girls

http://www.nosp.ie/survey_07.pdf

Nonetheless , it is over like 20 % and doubled from what it was.

Maybe we should call it youth suicide and say it can happen to girls too but the numbers are not insignificant.

calling it youth suicide would be yet another sop to the gender neutral - pc crowd , they have thier claws around enough language already

cruizer101

Apparently another reason for some of the imbalance is that there are a lot of attempted suicides by girls which don't get registered.

When males commit suicide they generally go for more violent methods, where as when females do they often will overdose on drugs, which will often just lead to a stay in hospital as opposed to actually commiting suicide.

Now I don't think this accounts for the large imbalance we have but it may account for some of it. Apologies I don't have any links it was something I read a good while ago.

southsiderosie

cruizer101 wrote: »

Apparently another reason for some of the imbalance is that there are a lot of attempted suicides by girls which don't get registered.

When males commit suicide they generally go for more violent methods, where as when females do they often will overdose on drugs, which will often just lead to a stay in hospital as opposed to actually commiting suicide.

Now I don't think this accounts for the large imbalance we have but it may account for some of it. Apologies I don't have any links it was something I read a good while ago.

I also remember reading that women are more likely to seek help for depression than men are. There are significantly different gender dynamics when it comes to seeking medical care, and these are particularly stark for mental health issues. So until it is more socially acceptable for men to admit that they need help, the suicide numbers will always be skewed, especially in Ireland.

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

calling it youth suicide would be yet another sop to the gender neutral - pc crowd , they have thier claws around enough language already

Probably and I just really wanted to bring attention to the girl suicide situation as opposed to neutralizing anything about the epidemic of suicide amongst young men.

I really do not like the gender or orientation stuff that masquerades as social policy and that is not my intention here just to draw attention to a high profile suicide and to say girls are not immune.

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

Probably and I just really wanted to bring attention to the girl suicide situation as opposed to neutralizing anything about the epidemic of suicide amongst young men.

I really do not like the gender or orientation stuff that masquerades as social policy and that is not my intention here just to draw attention to a high profile suicide and to say girls are not immune.

i doubt anyone thinks girls are immune to suicide , suicide will always be with us , some people cant live with the loss which depression brings

CDfm

Coping skills for depression are important and the Gentlemens Club has a resource directory

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056299528

Anyway , when I saw the story & the girls parents disclosing their daughters identity, I thought it might strike a chord.

EDIT- someone I know posted this link somewhere else

http://robdelaney.tumblr.com/post/414007899/on-depression-getting-help

Morag

Girls/women tend to choose less violent means of suicide and so are often discovered, intervened with and up in hospital and are written up as being para suicidal. Which leads to a whole different type of stigma that a failed attempted was never really a 'real' attempt and she was only looking for notice or creating drama.

CDfm

Its a stupid stigma.

Current studies show that female suicide figures alone in Ireland on average match those of total suicides for the country in the 1960's.

The figure is higher again with unexplained deaths.

So for people who are making half arsed attempts quite a few are managing to succeed.

That the figures don't match the stratospheric figures that young men's suicide have reached is great.

Jesus Wept

Sharrow wrote: »

Girls/women tend to choose less violent means of suicide and so are often discovered, intervened with and up in hospital and are written up as being para suicidal. Which leads to a whole different type of stigma that a failed attempted was never really a 'real' attempt and she was only looking for notice or creating drama.

A suicidal gesture and a genuine attempt are two different things, not detracting from the seriousness of either.

Morag

The-Rigger wrote: »

A suicidal gesture and a genuine attempt are two different things, not detracting from the seriousness of either.

Yes they are and medical professionals can usually figure out the difference,
lay people not so much and they are the ones who pass comments about the person which makes it harder on them.

seamus

CDfm wrote: »

Current studies show that female suicide figures alone in Ireland on average match those of total suicides for the country in the 1960's.

This is a tough one to call. During a discussion about mental health on another forum, one poster asserted that mental illness is a new problem and never existed before the 1990s and "materialism". I checked out suicide rates in Ireland and found that reported suicides in Ireland before 1980 were tiny.

This isn't because suicide is a new thing, it's because suicide itself carried a stigma, primarily religious, and doctors, priests and families would avoid calling any death a suicide if they could help it. They still do.
The law though thas changed in this regard (as too has the stigma) and we've seen a steady rise in reporting rates over the last 30 years.

But I don't think we can infer that suicides now are at much higher levels than the 60's, as we simply don't have proper data for that time period.

CDfm

I am not so sure that the statistics are not there, I have seen references to unexplained deaths and many academics take these into account.

By way of anecdote, my parents would have come across a few , by comparison last year when my friend died he was part of a cluster of 7. I imagine that the cluster phenomena is recentish , as in the past 30 years.

On the stigma being religious, Lots of people are very uncomfortable around mental illness and people who are mentally ill. IMHO, other generations were a lot more matter of fact about death.

One reason for the increase might be the changing nature of how we view treatment. Look here at a recent thread in History

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056235296

Until , recently people could expect prosecution or to be hospitalized for a long time.

Maybe it is hard to pin down.

Edit

In any event , between 1987 & 1997 the figures doubled.

http://www.nosp.ie/mortality_statistics.pdf

The number of suicides in Ireland doubled between 1987
and 1998: from 245 to 478 (+110%) according to the occurrence
data; and, from 262 to 451 (+92%) according to
the registration data (Figure 1). The number of suicides appears
to have leveled off in the relatively short period since
1998. The number of other deaths by an external cause fell
by 15–20% from around 1200 in the late 1980s to approximately
1000 in the mid-1990s. This was followed by an
increase of almost 30% so that the number of other deaths
by an external cause at the end of the study period was
similar to that at the start.
In 1987, fewer suicide deaths occurred than were registered
(245 vs. 262, –6%) and this happened again in 1993
(327 vs. 357, –8%; Figure 2). In every other year, the number
of suicides that occurred exceeded the number that
were registered.

Morag

Often when the physican attending the corpse at home was the family dr and know to the family and may have helped deliver the recently deceased and indeed also the parent, the cause of death filled out on the cert and declared would not reflect that it was suicide. This way it did not bring as much shame to the family and that there could be a christian funeral and the body not be buried outside the walls of the graveyard. Also often marriages were called of or matches not made due to it coming out there had been a suicide in the family.

30 /40 years ago this sort of thing was still happening so you won't get proper statics.

Orion

seamus wrote: »

I checked out suicide rates in Ireland and found that reported suicides in Ireland before 1980 were tiny.

IIRC it was only recently that the Coroner was allowed to record a death as suicide.

And it was only in 1993 that suicide was decriminalised.

Both of these would have contributed to the stigma and affected the 'reported' rate of suicide.

cruizer101 wrote: »

When males commit suicide they generally go for more violent methods, where as when females do they often will overdose on drugs, which will often just lead to a stay in hospital as opposed to actually commiting suicide.

Just as an FYI - "Committing" suicide implies a crime. The Samaritans recommend not using the term 'commit suicide' to help move away from the stigma attached. "Die by suicide" or "take one's own life" are preferred terms.

Wibbs

On the stats front, of the people I know who took their own lives only one I can recall was registered as a suicide. That's in the last 20 years. Before that I reckon registering was even less common. Mostly people already under the care of doctors.

Women/men divide. I'd agree with previous posters. Men are more likely to achieve their aim because of more violent methods used.

Now this is just personal experience talking here: Looking back I knew far more women than men who attempted suicide. More self injury too(cutting/eating disorders). There also seemed to be more public "cries for help" and escalation of self injury, so they were usually in the "system" or spotted before it went too far. With the men it was either completely unexpected or a very short trip from "Joe appears stressed" to "Joe took his own life". The men were harder to reach, that is if you ever saw it coming in the first place.

amacachi

Wibbs wrote: »

On the stats front, of the people I know who took their own lives only one I can recall was registered as a suicide. That's in the last 20 years. Before that I reckon registering was even less common. Mostly people already under the care of doctors.

Exactly, as I've pointed out on just about every suicide thread in the last while there were stats showing year-by-year suicide statistics by county and in Limerick it alternated between 0 and over a dozen. Has to be down to judges or similar. As with yourself in cases of suicide I know of they're usually not put down as suicide.


Another oddity about is about suicide being illegal til recently enough. While I don't think it had much, if any, effect on the actual rate, in terms of reporting it has to have made a huge difference. Up until a couple of decades ago people were so beholden by religious beliefs that when kids we born and died before being baptised and couldn't be buried in a graveyard there were cases when parents illegally buried them on the boundaries of graveyards or in other open graves/coffins about to be buried. To think that people would go that far in that situation makes me think that the up until recently illegality and "immorality" of suicide would easily explain something a lot simpler like ticking a different box and filling out some forms differently.

Cavehill Red

Legally, a death is only a suicide if a coroner declares it so.

Many suicides are not easily provable beyond doubt not to be other things such as misadventure, therefore our reported suicide rate is much lower than the actual rate, for men and women.

However, as has been said, and I speak as someone who lost a close female relative to suicide as well as a number of male friends, in Ireland the acute problem is that our young male suicide rate is way out of whack compared to other countries, whereas our female suicide rate is relatively average.

Hence resources are often directed towards those most at risk, ie young men. But it doesn't remotely mean that anyone is ignoring suicide among young women.