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Insanity Defence

  • 30-11-2011 8:13pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30


    What is Insanity? Anders Behring was declared Insane earlier from the press reports. Somehow I think he knew exactly what he was doing. If the man wanted to be a mass murderer, why do people beat around the bush and say he is "living in his own world"?

    I get the real impression this is more an excuse for the bleeding heart folk to delude people into believing that a person cannot rationally kill that many people as easily as I turn off a lightswitch. If the man wanted to kill, why should he be considered insane:confused:

    The actual Insanity defense is simply a tool used to absolve one from their responsibilities. I do not condone any of these actions, but I also do not condone rationalising excuses because some people are too afraid to face the real truth. Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.

    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,580 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    XORAND wrote: »
    Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.
    That's mad Ted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    XORAND wrote: »
    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?

    Its just a tool to get a lighter sentence or get off completly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    XORAND wrote: »
    What is Insanity? Anders Behring was declared Insane earlier from the press reports. Somehow I think he knew exactly what he was doing. If the man wanted to be a mass murderer, why do people beat around the bush and say he is "living in his own world"?

    I get the real impression this is more an excuse for the bleeding heart folk to delude people into believing that a person cannot rationally kill that many people as easily as I turn off a lightswitch. If the man wanted to kill, why should he be considered insane:confused:

    The actual Insanity defense is simply a tool used to absolve one from their responsibilities. I do not condone any of these actions, but I also do not condone rationalising excuses because some people are too afraid to face the real truth. Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.

    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?

    If the person is insane and cannot tell right from wrong, yes I agree with the insanity defence.

    Put it this way,Ander Beiring Breivik being found insane is not going to be well-received in Norway. So I'm inclined to think if he could have been declared sane, he would have been, and that he is, in fact, insane. Nothing to do with bleeding hearts.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,758 ✭✭✭✭TeddyTedson


    Victor wrote: »
    That's mad Ted.
    wait, what:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭Brendog


    I prefer the Chewbacca Defence.

    I mean, hes a wookie who lives on the planet Endor. That doesn't make sense


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    It's a way of saying 'you are sick and society is well'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Brendog wrote: »
    I prefer the Chewbacca Defence.

    I mean, hes a wookie who lives on the planet Endor. That doesn't make sense

    Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭overshoot


    LighterGuy wrote: »
    Its just a tool to get a lighter sentence or get off completly.
    not always the case. there are many in Broadmore in England (their most high security looney bin) who have served their sentence but are still deemed to dangerous to be released.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 XORAND


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    If the person is insane and cannot tell right from wrong, yes I agree with the insanity defence.

    Put it this way,Ander Beiring Breivik being found insane is not going to be well-received in Norway. So I'm inclined to think if he could have been declared sane, he would have been, and that he is, in fact, insane. Nothing to do with bleeding hearts.

    There is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong and simply not caring about the diffferences. This is a common trait of sociopathic people. I mean how can they prove with absolute certainty this man is "insane"? What if upon review, the man is consider not insane? How can we measure insanity?

    Seems like an awfully weak excuse to me. And I would imagine a large number Psychiatric hospital would be 100,000 times worse than even a maximum security prison. ECT, lobotomies and all that vile stuff. You can't change people that are inclined to think that way really.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭amacca


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

    What you gots to ask yourself boy is what height are his genitalia when hes in the seated position see. ..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    XORAND wrote: »
    There is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong and simply not caring about the diffferences. This is a common trait of sociopathic people. I mean how can they prove with absolute certainty this man is "insane"?

    What if upon review, the man is consider not insane? How can we measure insanity exactly?

    No idea how they measure it, but I'd imagine every psychologist and criminologist in Norway has been trying to measure it over the last few months. He'll never be a free man again in any case.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭amacca


    XORAND wrote: »
    There is a difference between knowing what is right and wrong and simply not caring about the diffferences. This is a common trait of sociopathic people. I mean how can they prove with absolute certainty this man is "insane"?

    What if upon review, the man is consider not insane? How can we measure insanity exactly?

    I personally would'nt care how they went about classifying it as long as the classification wasn't an excuse to waste millions on treatment and rehabilitation and they punished them by causing the criminal/lunatic/whatever as much pain as they have caused others if possible....and if not possible to quantify this then lets just say lots...lots and lots.

    they could call it marshmallow brain prolapse for all I'd care.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 XORAND


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    No idea how they measure it, but I'd imagine every psychologist and criminologist in Norway has been trying to measure it over the last few months.

    How can you measure something for which no definition exists? It would be like trying to measure a distance without any idea of what distance actually means. OK, it depends on context, but most people will agree with the definition of distance, at least from the dictionary.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    It's a reasonable argument that you don't kill 100 people because you are sane OP.

    As for lighter sentences or getting off completely...bollox. I'd rather go to normal jail than an asylum any day.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    It's a reasonable argument that you don't kill 100 people because you are sane OP.


    You could argue that a sane person would never, ever, kill another human being yet people get convicted of murder every day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,070 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    It's way too complex an issue to have a black and white take on.

    I believe in restorative justice, and I think that if somebody is truly insane; then the option to treat as well as punish them should exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,938 ✭✭✭mackg


    It's a reasonable argument that you don't kill 100 people because you are sane OP.

    As for lighter sentences or getting off completely...bollox. I'd rather go to normal jail than an asylum any day.

    definitely, hate the idea of those places. Went to visit a friend who was drying out in a psych ward and that was grim enough, I can only imagine what an asylum is like.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    XORAND wrote: »
    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?
    How can it be a case of agree or disagree or just a bleeding heart notion when mental illnesses like schizophrenia and psychosis are the reality?
    If a person is deemed insane, well it's because at least one psychiatrist who is slightly more qualified than you or I has assessed them.
    Plus, mentally ill people can be aware of what they're doing and be completely calculating. They're not always foaming at the mouth and babbling.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    TheZohan wrote: »
    You could argue that a sane person would never, ever, kill another human being yet people get convicted of murder every day.

    Not really, i can understand murder to a degree. I can kind of wrap my head around the idea of someone hating one person so much they want to kill them. I can even wrap my head around the idea of a spur of the moment murder, like an assault gone wrong and that stuff.

    Not condoning it, just saying I see how that **** can happen.

    I can't wrap my head around gathering a load of kids around you and opening fire with an automatic weapon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    LighterGuy wrote: »
    XORAND wrote: »
    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?

    Its just a tool to get a lighter sentence or get off completly.
    When the person's not insane.

    Jesus, sometimes I wonder whether things should be explained via primary school charts here...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    XORAND wrote: »
    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    No idea how they measure it, but I'd imagine every psychologist and criminologist in Norway has been trying to measure it over the last few months.

    How can you measure something for which no definition exists? It would be like trying to measure a distance without any idea of what distance actually means. OK, it depends on context, but most people will agree with the definition of distance, at least from the dictionary.

    I'm not able to provide a definition or set of criteria,but there are people in the field of criminal psychology who must be able to.So its not as if it's impossible to define.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 XORAND


    Why not just give him the choice between a bullet or a psych ward? One of the above posters stated that he won't be a free man again. In that instance, why not save all that money and grief from quasi-doctors slowly turning his brain to mush?

    If I was in that situation, I would sure as hell bite a bullet before choosing the other option. Do they not have any sense of perspective, why lock up the guy for years on end when that money could go to a cancer society or something?

    Seems pretty grim to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 XORAND


    Dudess wrote: »
    When the person's not insane.

    Jesus, sometimes I wonder whether things should be explained via primary school charts here...

    How can you declare somebody to be insane, when no working definition of what constitutes insanity exists? I think it's just an excuse to avoid jail, but that is just my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    XORAND wrote: »
    Why not just give him the choice between a bullet or a psych ward? One of the above posters stated that he won't be a free man again. In that instance, why not save all that money and grief from quasi-doctors slowly turning his brain to mush?

    If I was in that situation, I would sure as hell bite a bullet before choosing the other option. Do they not have any sense of perspective, why lock up the guy for years on end when that money could go to a cancer society or something?

    Seems pretty grim to me.

    On average it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life believe it or not.

    I found the figures for a previous thread on this subject so i will see if i can track them down again.
    XORAND wrote: »
    How can you declare somebody to be insane, when no working definition of what constitutes insanity exists? I think it's just an excuse to avoid jail, but that is just my opinion.

    Your still working off the assumption that jail is worse than where he will end up though, which is unlikely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭Dotrel


    XORAND wrote: »
    Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.

    And some others simply haven't tried it yet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 XORAND


    Dotrel wrote: »
    And some others simply haven't tried it yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 578 ✭✭✭Mammanabammana


    LighterGuy wrote: »
    Its just a tool to get a lighter sentence or get off completly.

    Not necessarily. My understanding of it (although Norwegian law wouldn't be my strong point) is that the maximum sentence he could receive is 20 years. However, if he's committed to a maximum security asylum, his case is reviewed every three years and a decision made then if he's considered fit to re enter society. There's no cap on that so technically, he could be kept locked up for the remainder of his natural life.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    XORAND wrote: »
    Psychiatric hospital would be 100,000 times worse than even a maximum security prison. ECT, lobotomies and all that vile stuff.

    Do you get your opinions about psychiatric hospitals from crap 80's movies? Psychiatric hospitals are nothing like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Not really, i can understand murder to a degree. I can kind of wrap my head around the idea of someone hating one person so much they want to kill them. I can even wrap my head around the idea of a spur of the moment murder, like an assault gone wrong and that stuff.

    Not condoning it, just saying I see how that **** can happen.

    I can't wrap my head around gathering a load of kids around you and opening fire with an automatic weapon.

    Do you hate anyone enough to murder them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    XORAND wrote: »
    Dudess wrote: »
    When the person's not insane.

    Jesus, sometimes I wonder whether things should be explained via primary school charts here...

    How can you declare somebody to be insane, when no working definition of what constitutes insanity exists? I think it's just an excuse to avoid jail, but that is just my opinion.
    It's perhaps a measure resorted to by people who aren't insane, but I don't get this "I think", "opinion" stuff as if it's something subjective - mental illness is a reality, hence the existence of places like the Central Mental Hospital.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    It's a reasonable argument that you don't kill 100 people because you are sane OP.

    Unless you wear the appropriate uniform and get authorisation from men in suits.

    Then you can get shiny trinkets for your jacket and even a specially coloured piece of cloth on your coffin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,433 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    A mate went to jail years back after a few petty crimes built up, all I can vouch were a result of paranoid schizophrenia. Absolutely no way should he have gone to jail. His judgement when in certain situatuins can be guided by an inner voice which was often negative. However if he spent considerable time planning and executing a plan like the guy the op is talking about the f** that...lock him up...guilty. In fact i'm sure there were cases where once it was proven there was "planning" then insanity can be ruled out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭FootShooter


    Paranoid Schizophrenia:
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/192621.php

    Two psychiatric experts diagnosed him by looking at hundred of hours of interrogation tapes and having 13 conversations with him of a total time of 36 hours. Breivik even added them to his "killing list" because he sees everyone he doesn't know as an enemy that's out to get him. The pm and the royal family was also on his killing list.

    And, the strictest prison sentence in Norway is 21 years plus involuntary commitment, meaning they can extend the sentence for 5 years at a time if the prisoner is seen as a threat to society. In theory you could stay in jail for life.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    TheZohan wrote: »
    Do you hate anyone enough to murder them?

    I have hated someone enough to understand why people might do it , yes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 42 LadyGardener


    Anders Brevik most likely IS insane.

    It is very, very rare for someone to be declared insane. Diminished responsibility is far more common, but an out-and-out insane verdict would not have been arrived at easily.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    Confab wrote: »
    Do you get your opinions about psychiatric hospitals from crap 80's movies? Psychiatric hospitals are nothing like that.

    When was the last time you were in one ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    ECT is still a last resort practice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    When was the last time you were in one ?

    A couple of years ago.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
    "That's some catch, that catch-22," he observed.
    "It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    XORAND wrote: »
    What is Insanity? Anders Behring was declared Insane earlier from the press reports. Somehow I think he knew exactly what he was doing. If the man wanted to be a mass murderer, why do people beat around the bush and say he is "living in his own world"?

    I get the real impression this is more an excuse for the bleeding heart folk to delude people into believing that a person cannot rationally kill that many people as easily as I turn off a lightswitch. If the man wanted to kill, why should he be considered insane:confused:

    The actual Insanity defense is simply a tool used to absolve one from their responsibilities. I do not condone any of these actions, but I also do not condone rationalising excuses because some people are too afraid to face the real truth. Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.

    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?


    To correct this assertion somewhat, Behring has not yet been "declared insane". Two psychiatrists appointed by a court have submitted their report, in which they state, inter alia, that he has been suffering from paranoid schizophrenia - a recognised condition - for a longer period and that he was in a state of psychosis when he planned and executed his crimes. Further, he is still living in a parallel universe and has only a tenuous grasp on reality. For example, he envisages himself as a future king of Norway.

    However, the report will still be evaluated by a panel of other experts and only then will the court decide whether or not to accept the psychiatrists' conclusion that Behring is not competent to be held accountable for his deeds in a court of law. In other words, he has not yet been declared insane, but it is almost certain that he will be. :cool:

    In which case he will be sent to a secure mental institution and it is highly unlikely that he will ever be released. There he will be treated humanely, as he would be in a Norwegian prison, where inmates are not tortured. Norway is a civilised country, and it will take more than Breivik to make it become otherwise.:)

    Either way, he will never again be able to harm anyone, and surely that is all that matters. It is also better not to have him in a prison, where he could have the possibility to infect other, shorter-term prisoners with his crazy racist opinions and hatred of the multiculturalism that is an inseparable aspect of globalisation, and they might further propagate those views and/or act on them after they are released.:)

    The two psychiatrists in question are among the top people in their profession in Norway and internationally respected for their expertise. The members of the panel who will evaluate their report are unlikely to be first-year students, either.:rolleyes:

    They have all qualified as medical doctors, then undergone years of specialist training in psychiatry and put in years of practical work, published and had their work evaluated by their national and international peers.


    However, the author of the OP, who has not spent a single minute interviewing and observing Breivik, seems to know better. I wonder what qualifications he can put on the table in support of the sweeping generalisations and anti-professional prejudices that he displays?:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭saa


    Yeah because if they're ill they're better off getting treatment than getting a suspended sentence and coming out worse because no ill person learns their lesson and just snaps out of it.

    And if you're going to pretend to be insane you're probably a bit of a sociopath.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    However, the author of the OP, who has not spent a single minute interviewing and observing Breivik, seems to know better. I wonder what qualifications he can put on the table in support of the sweeping generalisations and anti-professional prejudices that he displays?:rolleyes:

    He's angry and therefore he's right. He doesn't need to have qualification or facts when he's angry.

    That approach is for, as he might put it, deluded bleeding heart folk.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    XORAND wrote: »
    What is Insanity? Anders Behring was declared Insane earlier from the press reports. Somehow I think he knew exactly what he was doing. If the man wanted to be a mass murderer, why do people beat around the bush and say he is "living in his own world"?

    I get the real impression this is more an excuse for the bleeding heart folk to delude people into believing that a person cannot rationally kill that many people as easily as I turn off a lightswitch. If the man wanted to kill, why should he be considered insane:confused:

    The actual Insanity defense is simply a tool used to absolve one from their responsibilities. I do not condone any of these actions, but I also do not condone rationalising excuses because some people are too afraid to face the real truth. Some people simply enjoy killing other human beings.

    Do you agree with the Insanity defence?


    To correct this assertion somewhat, Behring has not yet been "declared insane". Two psychiatrists appointed by a court have submitted their report, in which they state, inter alia, that he has been suffering from paranoid schizophrenia - a recognised condition - for a longer period and that he was in a state of psychosis when he planned and executed his crimes. Further, he is still living in a parallel universe and has only a tenuous grasp on reality. For example, he envisages himself as a future king of Norway.

    However, the report will still be evaluated by a panel of other experts and only then will the court decide whether or not to accept the psychiatrists' conclusion that Behring is not competent to be held accountable for his deeds in a court of law. In other words, he has not yet been declared insane, but it is almost certain that he will be. :cool:

    In which case he will be sent to a secure mental institution and it is highly unlikely that he will ever be released. There he will be treated humanely, as he would be in a Norwegian prison, where inmates are not tortured. Norway is a civilised country, and it will take more than Breivik to make it become otherwise.:)

    Either way, he will never again be able to harm anyone, and surely that is all that matters. It is also better not to have him in a prison, where he could have the possibility to infect other, shorter-term prisoners with his crazy racist opinions and hatred of the multiculturalism that is an inseparable aspect of globalisation, and they might further propagate those views and/or act on them after they are released.:)

    The two psychiatrists in question are among the top people in their profession in Norway and internationally respected for their expertise. The members of the panel who will evaluate their report are unlikely to be first-year students, either.:rolleyes:

    They have all qualified as medical doctors, then undergone years of specialist training in psychiatry and put in years of practical work, published and had their work evaluated by their national and international peers.


    However, the author of the OP, who has not spent a single minute interviewing and observing Breivik, seems to know better. I wonder what qualifications he can put on the table in support of the sweeping generalisations and anti-professional prejudices that he displays?:rolleyes:
    This post was thanked a second time by Dudess. Nice to see a bit of sense that drives home what bollocks all the "in my opinion", "I think" stuff is.


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