Mercian or Ti??

G rock

apologies in advance for the lengthy post!

for the past while i've been pretty much set on saving for a Ti bike. i don't think i'll be purchasing again for quite some time and ti fits the bill as a "bike for life" kind of project.

the options i was looking at were

-Van Nicholas chinook (either complete bike from their clearance section-some good value in the past few months-or from fatbirds)
-Lynskey frame and fork (e.g Sportive) and build it up
-really stretching the budget to an enigma

but now i've starting thinking about a mercian.

it also would fit the bill as a "bike for life", i like the ride of steel, and they look the business. i'm never going to realistically race either, so top end lightweight steel isn't necessary
plus i like things a little different!

i won't be able to go over to the UK for a custom fitting, but mercian have said that they can take body measurements and specs from me and recommend a frame based on that. i know feck all about geometries etc, so i reckon i'd be placing myself completely in their hands.

i could also get an off the peg frame from them, but would this defeat the purpose of buying something like a mercian in the first place?

i've also contacted bob jackson, rourke etc to see what their story is but most insist on a custom fit job.

i've also read rottenhat's framebuilding thread which has given me quite the appetite for this, although the end result won't be quite as nice as his!

so what do you all think? should i stick with the Ti idea?

chakattack

I had similar thoughts a couple of years but got sense...I was thinking ti and bike for life

It may be a bike for life but it won't be THE bike for life....technology will move on and you'll fall in lust with something else after looking at too much bike porn.....then it will play second fiddle to your new love in a few years...

Steel would be very comfortable and mercian's et al are very stylish but a nice carbon racer would be much more lively and fun to ride (whether you race or not), certainly easier uphill and almost as comfy. A good crash will write off a decent ti or steel ride just as easily as carbon anyway.

Unless you have a peculiar body....a good bike fitting is all you need to figure out how to buy an off the peg frame/bike that will fit. If you do, then custom is the way to go.

G rock

chakattack wrote: »

Unless you have a peculiar body....

peculiar head maybe!

granda

i had the same dilema and ended up deciding on an enigma build(wont be doing it till the spring though) if your considering lynskey why not enigma they are cheaper and i think they have a better range of bikes.i will only be buying the frame from enigma(esprit) and building the bike up myself plus if you look in the clearence section they usually have a few good deals on steel and ti bikes,at the moment they have a used esprit frame and forks for £700 which sadly is to small for me and looks to be in great nic.
btw it took me ages to decide which one to go for so good luck

Holyboy

It's not at all true that a steel frame is as easy to right off as a Ti or carbon frame, one that is silver soldered can have anything replaced on it, any of the tubes, stays, BB shell and dropouts.

G rock, I have a nice book if you want a lend, 'custom bicycles, a passionate pursuit' but I warn you, it may make you want to spend more money:D

chakattack

Fair enough holy...is that the same as fillet brazed?

Don't get me wrong...I have an old steel frame and love it...but if I had to pick I would go for carbon.

G rock

granda wrote: »

i had the same dilema and ended up deciding on an enigma build(wont be doing it till the spring though) if your considering lynskey why not enigma they are cheaper and i think they have a better range of bikes.i will only be buying the frame from enigma(esprit) and building the bike up myself plus if you look in the clearence section they usually have a few good deals on steel and ti bikes,at the moment they have a used esprit frame and forks for £700 which sadly is to small for me and looks to be in great nic.
btw it took me ages to decide which one to go for so good luck

IIRC fatbirds do a frame+fork+headset offer on a few lynskey frames which brings them down under the enigma prices, (which i'd have to factor in fork then) but i suppose a 100 or 200 at that point shouldn'd be a deciding factor!

have you taken delivery of your frame yet? happy? good luck with build!

G rock

Holyboy wrote: »

It's not at all true that a steel frame is as easy to right off as a Ti or carbon frame, one that is silver soldered can have anything replaced on it, any of the tubes, stays, BB shell and dropouts.

G rock, I have a nice book if you want a lend, 'custom bicycles, a passionate pursuit' but I warn you, it may make you want to spend more money:D

i might just take you up on that, you're a dangerous man!

and bear in mind that you could have a hand in all this yet!

was looking at the lugged steel frames. drool

granda

not yet, i will get it in march next once i have saved all the pennies but it will be a enigma esprit with a sram rival groupset or maybe a force groupset

beans

For what it's worth, Mercian built me a very well-fitting bike from my measurements, that I took myself and relayed to them. In hindsight, an off-the-peg 55cm frame would have done me fine.

I found them easy to work with, and love the result It's certainly worth keeping in mind, if steel is what you want.

Oh and on the subject of crash-damage - i've a slight crimp in the right seat-stay that I suffered in a fairly heavy bike vs van. So it's not my experience that a carbon frame is as easy to write off as steel. But that's not really the point, lugged steel is all kinds of sexy and can be just as lively as carbon were it built that way, I'll wager.

G rock

beans wrote: »

For what it's worth, Mercian built me a very well-fitting bike from my measurements, that I took myself and relayed to them. In hindsight, an off-the-peg 55cm frame would have done me fine.

I found them easy to work with, and love the result It's certainly worth keeping in mind, if steel is what you want.

interesting...

did you know anything about any spec geometry-wise before requesting a frame build? E.G. riding style- race/sportive/tour etc?

mercian sent me a brief form with various measurements that they usually take into account but seemed a bit iffy about me doing the measuring myself! maybe i need a beautiful assistant....

what did you go for in the end?? and what do you use it for?

and pics BTW!!

happytramp

Regarding the Steel Vs Carbon debate. I've devised a very easy test to help you decide which you should buy. Simply answer the following question.

Which of the following Pinarello's do you think is nicer.

1.



or

2.*



* selection of option 2 may indicate mild derangement

Holyboy

chakattack wrote: »

Fair enough holy...is that the same as fillet brazed?

Don't get me wrong...I have an old steel frame and love it...but if I had to pick I would go for carbon.

I love titanium bikes and carbon bikes, in fact I love all bikes but I REALLY love steel ones.

Fillet brazing is used to build a lug-less steel frame and is quite a skill, but I do so love the look of nice lugs, especially hand filed ones, they make me come over all funny:o

beans

G rock wrote: »

interesting...

did you know anything about any spec geometry-wise before requesting a frame build? E.G. riding style- race/sportive/tour etc?

mercian sent me a brief form with various measurements that they usually take into account but seemed a bit iffy about me doing the measuring myself! maybe i need a beautiful assistant....

what did you go for in the end?? and what do you use it for?

and pics BTW!!

I did have a beautiful assistant, but I got her to take 4 or 5 rounds of measuring and worked off the average.

All I told them was that I wanted something for sportives, for long-day riding that would be comfy but not heavy etc. Went for the Strada model in the end, cos I liked the lugs

re: use, I mostly went for long solo spins in Dublin, out to Wicklow that kind of thing. I've been on a couple of Wicklow 200s on it, recently been commuting in London which makes the day a little bit brighter. Having said that, it could be used for anything really. It's light to the touch, responsive. With the right saddle/chamois combo it's always been comfy over long, bumpy distances.

I'm sure I have a collection of the frame shots somewhere...

Yup Looks a bit different these days, but that's her before I built her and just after

doozerie

I'm not sure what current thinking is on the topic but it used to be believed that steel frames lose their stiffness over time so that what starts out as a stiff and slightly flexy steel bike today will likely be a lot more flexible and therefore less stiff some years down the road. Depending on what you are looking for in a frame, then that may not be an issue of course. That thinking would match my experiences with one steel road frame that I've had for about 17 years now, but being anecdotal that's not reliable evidence of anything.

Mind you, there also used to be a school of thought that titanium was practically indestructible but that is not the case as breakages do occur with titanium frames. That hasn't stopped me choosing a titanium frame (Enigma Eclipse) when replacing an aluminium frame recently though. I ended up buying mine direct from Enigma as they gave me a reasonable deal on frame+fork+headset - I would have gotten a slightly better price on the frame+fork elsewhere but it seems that the retailer I was considering was actually undercutting Enigma's own prices without having any frames in stock and my conscience pushed me in the direction of putting the profits towards the manufacturer rather than a retailer who put the manufacturer under what seemed like unreasonable pressure (I have a funny conscience!).

I have a lot of sympathy with the view though that carbon is the best compromise of ride quality and value for money. At the end of the day I do believe that you get more for your money with a modern carbon frame. However, my decision when buying the Enigma was swayed by the concerns I'd have about a carbon frame taking simple everyday knocks (e.g. I store one of my bikes in a room with lots of tools hanging above it and I've dropped the occasional tool when removing/replacing it on the wall - non have ever landed on my bike but if they did I'd rather it wasn't on a carbon frame). I'm very careful with my "good" carbon bike and I decided I didn't want that same headache with what amounts to a longer term/winter bike.

Holyboy

G rock wrote: »

i might just take you up on that, you're a dangerous man!

and bear in mind that you could have a hand in all this yet!

was looking at the lugged steel frames. drool

If only I hadn't of chucked in my last job and ended up working in a cave,then I may have actually been able to offer to build you a frame this year, oh well!

Unless you feel like waiting a year or two?:)

Sr. Assumpta

G rock wrote: »

.....
the options i was looking at were

-Van Nicholas chinook (either complete bike from their clearance section-some good value in the past few months-or from fatbirds)
-Lynskey frame and fork (e.g Sportive) and build it up
-really stretching the budget to an enigma

but now i've starting thinking about a mercian.

so what do you all think? should i stick with the Ti idea?

Have you considered 'Independent Fabrication' at all? They custom build Ti bikes, I know of one (quiet) chap on here who is extremely happy with the one they built him ....

blorg

Carbon is the best value for money and is not that fragile. Steel looks great but will be relatively heavy and you will notice this difference, racing or not, if you have any point of comparison. Ti will give you a metal bike with less of a weight penalty (still heavier than carbon) but at a higher price.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you want.

granda

Holyboy wrote: »

If only I hadn't of chucked in my last job and ended up working in a cave,then I may have actually been able to offer to build you a frame this year, oh well!

Unless you feel like waiting a year or two?:)

you may regret saying that holyboy!!!!!!!!

G rock

@blorg-i want them all, that's the problem!

@beans-that';s a nice bike! Would be using it for similar sort of things, long spins, and I'd like to do at least one audax next year

I've looked at the if bikes sr assumpta, they're gorgeous, but I thought they only deal out of 'mericy?

didn't realise enigma did frame fork headset deals, something like that could also swing the balance!

granda

http://www.enigmabikes.com/clearance2.html
this seems a pretty good deal the only problem was that it's to big for me
the seller emailed me that it has done 6 sportives 3 ironman and 1000 miles never crashed and its a 2009 model

G rock

granda wrote: »

http://www.enigmabikes.com/clearance2.html
this seems a pretty good deal the only problem was that it's to big for me
the seller emailed me that it has done 6 sportives 3 ironman and 1000 miles never crashed and its a 2009 model

Is it the esprit you meant? Yeah looks like a lovely bike alright.

Although I'm nearly 6', so might be a bit small?

blorg

FWIW I was choosing between a Mercian King of Mercia and a Van Nicholas Amazon for my tourer a few years ago. I ended up getting the Ti bike, chiefly for weight reasons. If I was not so worried about weight but had been more concerned about aesthetics I would have got the steel bike, Mercians are lovely looking things. Got a Litespeed Archon as my good racer then a bit later, just because I liked the idea of Ti. The one genuine advantage of unpainted Ti is that it will look pretty much the same in 20 years as the day you bought it; I met guys racing decade old Litespeeds and they looked as new as mine. You would get the same performance out of carbon at a much lower price, but our connection to bikes is as much emotional as logical, so at the end of the day you need to get the bike you will love, whatever that may be.

G rock

blorg wrote: »

... our connection to bikes is as much emotional as logical, so at the end of the day you need to get the bike you will love, whatever that may be.

ah you see that's where i'm coming from!

if i'm spending quite a bit on a bike i want something i can be very happy with and not lose the love for in a year or two. i suppose this might be pretty unrealistic!

i think i'd be happy to sacrifice a small bit of performance (e.g weight/stiffness) to get something that fits the bill.

as much as i like carbon bikes, they just don't do it for me in the same way ti or steel do. (they don't go with my woollen cycling gear!!)

so now the question remains- is it a waste to get an off the peg steel frame or should i take the risk with trying to get a custom using self-taken measurements??

blorg

Personally I don't see the point of custom size frames in this day and age, given you can get any arbitrary position through your choice of stem and seat post.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Personally I don't see the point of custom size frames in this day and age, given you can get any arbitrary position through your choice of stem and seat post.

They look better and you can add unusual features.

doozerie

G rock wrote: »

so now the question remains- is it a waste to get an off the peg steel frame or should i take the risk with trying to get a custom using self-taken measurements??

On the Enigma website you can fill in your measurements, and some measurements from your existing bike, and they should then be able to advise you whether an off-the-peg frameset would be adequate once you tell them what you wish to use it for. I found them helpful when dealing with them via e-mail (they were very responsive to e-mails), though I knew that I was going for an off-the-peg model so I just wanted to confirm that the size I had in mind was appropriate.

Incidentally, I've seen it said in more than one online discussion that off-the-peg titanium Enigma's are factory built elsewhere (China?) while all of the custom titanium builds are handbuilt in the UK. I didn't check that any further but their website suggests likewise: "all of our steel, stainless steel and bespoke titanium frames are made by us, by hand right here in rural Sussex". That wasn't an issue for me but I could see why it could be for others so if it would influence your decision it may be worth asking Enigma themselves to confirm.

doozerie

Oh, in case you haven't thought of it, Planet X are worth a look for titanium frames too. They are badged as Planet X but manufactured by Van Nicholas I believe. Their prices are not bad and they have some good offers at times, for example this Ti Pro Road SRAM Red model is £1,750 - that one is only available in medium size though, but from a quick glance it's not the only one on offer on their site at the moment.

Sr. Assumpta

G rock wrote: »

@blorg-i want them all, that's the problem!

@beans-that's a nice bike! Would be using it for similar sort of things, long spins, and I'd like to do at least one audax next year

I've looked at the if bikes sr assumpta, they're gorgeous, but I thought they only deal out of 'mericy?

didn't realise enigma did frame fork headset deals, something like that could also swing the balance!

G_rock, as with others, IF will custom-make, from measurements taken&sent, and ship outside US.

Lumen

Sr. Assumpta wrote: »

G_rock, as with others, IF will custom-make, from measurements taken&sent, and ship outside US.

They are however very expensive: $3-$5k + duty + VAT.

My custom Ti Enigma frame was under £2k and that included titanium S&S couplers which added a few hundred.

G rock

Lumen wrote: »

They are however very expensive: $3-$5k + duty + VAT.

My custom Ti Enigma frame was under £2k and that included titanium S&S couplers which added a few hundred.

yeah that's kind of what i was getting at when i said they dealt only out of the states. would push it waaay over budget. still though, beautiful bikes.

frame and fork with mercian are starting around 800stg (plus vat, dunno why they don't include that in price). would consider shipping to my sister in UK to avoid higher rate of tax here.

thanks also for that link doozerie, i saw that myself, good spec for the money and like you say a VN made frame.

lots to think about but still have a niggle that it's a steel i want. must be attracted to the bright colours, i'm easily pleased

G rock

sorry to annoy everyone about this again, but was just thinking (and having a look around at stuff)- would the 1" ahead or 1" threaded forks on a steel mercian be a bit of a pain in the ass to get headset, stem, and bars for?

doesn't seem to be many options in comparison to the 1 1/8" forks

Holyboy

G rock wrote: »

sorry to annoy everyone about this again, but was just thinking (and having a look around at stuff)- would the 1" ahead or 1" threaded forks on a steel mercian be a bit of a pain in the ass to get headset, stem, and bars for?

doesn't seem to be many options in comparison to the 1 1/8" forks

1" threaded with quill stem looks much better, you may be slightly limited by choice but I'm pretty sure Cinelli have started producing quill stems again and bars too, 1 1/8" A head will probably be stiffer and work a bit better but who wants that? It's ALL about the look:D

G rock

what about 1" a head?

they do the job too?

i've also seen shims to use 1 1/8 with 1" forks but i'm guessing that practice may be frowned upon by you purists!!

the quill stems do look well, but i still want some level of supposed performance!

hmmm, what to do, what to do....

Holyboy

Oh you poor man, I do feel for you with all these choices!

If it were me I would rule out 1" A head, there's no point in it at all, you would most probably end up using a shim and a 1 1/8" stem any way!

A head works better but threaded looks better, but of course if you went A head you could get a custom lugged stem, and they can be NICE.

Haha, yet more choices.

G rock

Holyboy wrote: »

Oh you poor man, I do feel for you with all these choices!

If it were me I would rule out 1" A head, there's no point in it at all, you would most probably end up using a shim and a 1 1/8" stem any way!

A head works better but threaded looks better, but of course if you went A head you could get a custom lugged stem, and they can be NICE.

Haha, yet more choices.

Damn you!!

i'm terrible at making decisions (not that i'm in any rush until after christmas anyway), but if all these options keep mounting up i'm gonna pack in the thinking and buy a tried and tested carbon canyon/PX!

you want to be my consultant? although i'd have to pay you top dolla for listening to all this s**t!

Holyboy

G rock wrote: »

Damn you!!

i'm terrible at making decisions (not that i'm in any rush until after christmas anyway), but if all these options keep mounting up i'm gonna pack in the thinking and buy a tried and tested carbon canyon/PX!

you want to be my consultant? although i'd have to pay you top dolla for listening to all this s**t!

NOOOOOOOOOOO............not carbon!

I will gladly take your money and listen to your s**t and then tell you exactly what bike you should build, but obviously it will have a Sturmey Archer hub on it but not a gold one because thats for the on-one;)

G rock

i imagine it'd go something like this...

you NEED to buy a steel bike with hubbed gears...

yeah you're nearly 6' tall, but i really think a bike suited for someone say around 5'7 (or 8, i'm guessing here) would ride MUCH better...

say, i like the colour scheme of this one...

ah pity the bike doesn't really fit you G, but tell you what, i'll agree to take if off your hands for, say, 150??