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Bananaman's issues with the FCP petition
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Yup. And it's now out of date, this was only current in 2009 (I must update it when I get some time over xmas. Click on the image to get the full, readable size):Grizzly 45 wrote: »Going slightly OT,but this kind of alphabet SOUP of abbreviations of the Irish shooting community ,does my head in!!!And I've been shooting over 35 years here I still have to somtimes sit down and figure out who is talking about or repersenting whom!!!Or has power over what.
Even Sparks tried to chart it out once in a Spider gram chart,and it looked even worse drawn than been spoken about.:(
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But, bad as it is, two things ought to be remembered:- It's like that for a reason (namely that our sports are so disparate in nature and history that there wasn't any sense in having one unified body to govern everything - it'd be a nightmare to organise or to try to do anything with). And as for a single lobbying body... well, people think this thread was a bitchfest, but this has been very very quiet and calm compared to the sort of rows the admin side has seen in times past, and they were rows over serious conflicts of interest, not just "my dad didn't like his dad so now we fight" or the like.
- While it's not what it was intended to do, the FCP has had the side effect of showing that all these groups could actually come together and work in concert on something. Not perfectly, but feck it, nobody does it perfectly.
And there's a third thing - everyone else in other countries have this problem and nobody else has fixed it. Just look at the US. Everyone says "oh, they have just the one body, the NRA and it's the way to go".... except that they have a dozen or more major national organisations governing their shooting sports, not just the NRA; and they have dozens of lobbying groups apart from the NRA (most of whom spend a lot of time trying to tear strips off the NRA as being too large, too boring, too ineffectual... sound familiar to anyone?).
One Irish sports journalist once put it (privately) like this: Sports administration, once you get above the club level, is a crock of ****. Which seems to be a universal fact of life
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At least 90% hadn’t got a clue what I was talking about or didn’t care.
I would not expect everyone to know all about the law, SIs, Acts, FCP, NGBs, etc, etc, but to bury your head in the sand and point blank refuse to at least stay up to date about whats going on in regards to issues that could affect their sport i believe is a must.
The same 90% will complain about some new legislation/SI/Act that is introduced claiming they knew nothing aabout it simply because they couldn't be bothered asking or staying informed.In my opinion if you want to get a powerful voice behind any petition you go to the biggest Shooting organisation in the Country, the (NARGC).
Sikamick
Biggest but by no means the best or even the most appropriate. The NARGC through Des Crofton has dealt with issues that have nothing to do with his organisation, ignored issues that should be dealt with by his organisation, and proceeded to publicly embarrass those people that we need to deal with in order to secure better/freer legislation for shooters as per his latest article in the ISD.
Sure its all well and good for popularity amonh his members, and the 90% you refer to above to be seen to be speaking up "against the man", but do you really think these people will forget such attacks, and be more OR LESS willing to deal with these organisations in the future.
For the other 10% that know about some things or a lot of things he does not speak for us, well me at least.Unfortunately, yet predictably, all effort is now focused off the topic and on attacking me in order to bore people and have them abandon the topic.
Not by my reading. You refuse to listen, repeat the same statments that have been explained to you, claim ignorance when its obvious you know more than you let on, you refute your association to a particuler NGB then after many, many posts of asking you finally say you are, and not just affilitiated, but a committee member. Its easy to see why patience is thin and comes across as attacking.I have not suggested a solution - I have no power to suggest a solution.
Who said you need power. You are very quick to dismiss the FCP, and any progress they may have made, but hide behind the veil or powerlessness when asked to suggest an alternative.
It has been said numerous times, yet still you cannot see the obvious. If the FCP go then we are not represented, whether they done a good job or not is irrelevant for the moment. You seem, from my reading, to be linking the people that sit on the panel to the actual body itself which is a mistake. The idea/concept of the FCP is whats important. Not the people sitting on it. People can be replaced, the FCP cannot.Everyone is entitled to their own (and they should form one of their own)
B'Man
Very true. Maybe if more people formed their own opinion instead of listening to the half stories, rumours, etc that usually float around we would have a lot more people in a better position to understand the importance of this issue.extremetaz wrote: »I'd be inclined to disagree - whilst the exchange has been heated, there is merit in the debate.
As someone who doesn't know a lot about the history of the FCP there is a lot of information and food for thought so IMO at least, the thread has been constructive.
+1Longranger wrote: »To Ezridax and Vegata,Can you guys please get on to Boards on ask them to create a thread entitled "Sparks v B'man":rolleyes:. Seriously lads,It's f#@king handbag stuff and,to be quite honest,if this was any other two guys the thread would be snipped to ribbons by now!:mad: If two posters want to get into a war of words they should do it by PM ffs... No offence to anyone involved but GROW THE FCUK UP!!!!Longranger wrote: »Fair point. Maybe I was to quick to speak but it just seems to go on and on. If there wasn't so much slagging and bitching it would make for better reading.
LR
Do you not realise the importance of what is being discussed. This is not a minor thing that will be resolved, and have no effect on you one way or the other. It is not an NGB discussion that may affect only a certain class of shooting This is about a body to represent ALL shooters to the Mininster.
It is not a trivial matter, and to complain about the heated debate as though the two primary posters involved were going at a personal issue, is as you said yourself quick to judgement and lacking a solid understanding of the importance of the matter. That is why this issue casuses such heated debate.
The concept that if something doesn't work well to get rid of it as though we (all shooters/NGBs) can simply replace it with another body is foolish. We have no authority save that which is granted to us by the Mionister/DoJ/An Gardai. They are under no obligation to allow us to participate. So if we disband the FCP or allow it to fade away, then come back in a year or two telling the PTB that we have a new group, and are ready to start discussions again what do you think they'll do?Grizzly45 wrote:but this kind of alphabet SOUP of abbreviations of the Irish shooting community ,does my head in.
It can be a head spinner alright, but how hard is it to remember FCP.
Not knowing what the abbreviations are for, the different organisations, NGBs, etc is still no excuse for some atitudes i seen and heard over the last few years. People get irrate at the debating, arguments, discussions about these groups, but its important.
How many times have we read "I can't be bothered with all this fighting, talk of organisations i don't know about" only to be met with "whats happening" from the same posters weeks/months later after something has taken place. Even if they don't fully understand every aspect i fail to understand peoples refusal to have an idea as to whats going on around them especially when it comes to issues that directly effect them.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.
Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo
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Thats a seperate problem.
I have no doubt that it is eminently possible to have one body administer the shooting sports in Ireland
what is not possible.is for everyone who wants to be the big swinging dick, to be the big swinging dick, when there is only one body to swing from.
The real problem is you need to start afresh and too many people would fight that as they fear not having any control or not being 'a name' when the concept of control is not needed and the cult of personality is probably the crux of most problems. There are always loads of people who want to be 'in charge' but if you cut that out you cut out most problems
But if you want to have that conversation then I would start a seperate thread as its not relevant to this topic
B'Man
Cheers B'man, it just is a hell of a lot to try and understand. It's stuff like this that put me off staying on committees go fishing and shooting clubs! As for starting another thread like this, YOU MUST BE F#*%ING JOKING!
LR0 -
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I've contacted the Department and they tell me ......
I'll bet you have - on speed dial no doubt
That'd be FISA today.
Which is currently being run by the NASRPC.
If you can think of a more representative way for the NASRPC to represent the NASRPC, let us know...
Firstly - FISA is a federation, as far as I was aware - not an employer - all members are equal partners - nobody "runs" it. (there is, as always, no need for someone to be "in charge")
Secondly, I was not aware that the FISA had been invited to participate on the panel. If they have, and they have not responded, then that is unfortunate, but I somehow doubt it.
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Regardless of what smoke and mirrors you pull out - the fact remains that the Clubs, Ranges, Sports, Competitors and Firearm types in the NASRPC are not represented on the FCP. Clicking your heels together all day long will not make that less true.
You are trying to blame NASRPC for that - which I find baffling. They have, of course , spent years trying to have their voice heard - to no avail.
They represent far more shooters, clubs, ranges and firearm types than most of the members of the panel - I find it shocking that the Panel would seek a permanent mandate to represent the shooting sports to the Gardai and Department and not actively seek to have NASRPC front and centre seeing as it represents such a wide breadth of expertise and relevant interest.
I have no doubt that "you" see the "voice" of the NASRPC as being one of the many people you personally hate for whatever reason - and hence will do anything and everything you can think of to stop them - regardless of what is good for the sport.
You should have no say in it anyway - you are just one target shooter among a quarter million - as I am - but you are wrong anyway
.... that voice is the hundreds, if not thousands, of members of the clubs and ranges represented by the NASRPC - which should be heard.
.....that voice is the majority of target shooting ranges in Ireland - which should be heard.
.....that voice is the majority of pistol target shooters in Ireland - which should be heard
.....that voice is the majority of rifle target shooters in Ireland - which should be heard
.....that voice has expertise in sporting rifle, gallery rifle, benchrest rifle, rimfire pistol, centrefire pistol, target shotgun and many many more forms of target shooting and the required firearms.
My assumption is that the FCP does not want the NASRPC to have that voice.
I find it quite worrying that a thread which attempted to highlight that fact has gone on so long with counter arguments - mostly from one person (Sparks) - When all you have to do is .....
Go to any NASRPC International, National or Club match - there are at least one a month - and ask any of the people there - there are an average of over 60 competitors there but have been over 100 - what the FCP is, what it does for them, whether they feel things have progressed on its watch and whether they feel it continuing, without changes, on a permanent basis will make things better for the shooting sports.
Go to any of the NASRPC Open, Training or Women on Target days and ask any of the new entrants to our sport - what the FCP is, whether they feel it is getting easier or more difficult to compete in target shooting on their watch and whether changes are needed.
They'll tell you if they feel represented - and they will tell you if they think it is the NASRPCs fault.
B'Man0 -
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Yes, I have the Minister at my personal beck and call for all my little whims. Didn't you know?I'll bet you have - on speed dial no doubt
That's not how it works.Firstly - FISA is a federation, as far as I was aware - not an employer - all members are equal partners - nobody "runs" it. (there is, as always, no need for someone to be "in charge")
FISA is the five bodies who were in the SSAI. Each body takes it in turn to run the FISA for a set period of time, then hands over the reins to the next body in turn. The purpose being to try to eliminate all the petty bickering ****e that was happening before when people were clamouring to take over the SSAI and causing havoc in the process for everyone.
First off, the handover from SSAI to FISA was agreed on before the SSAI was wound up - no invitation was necessary and that was spelt out before the handover.Secondly, I was not aware that the FISA had been invited to participate on the panel. If they have, and they have not responded, then that is unfortunate, but I somehow doubt it.
Secondly, the department was very, very clear on this (seriously, I'm not used to answers being so direct) - there has been no contact from FISA to the DoJ.
So basicly, the NASRPC took over FISA six months ago and did nothing about the FCP - and at this time, you were still an NASRPC officer B'man - and now you're complaining that the NASRPC isn't represented on the FCP, even though you've never even picked up the phone to ask when the next meeting was on.
I mean, were you expecting a gilt-edged invitation hand-delivered by the Minister?
They had years of direct representation on the FCP.You are trying to blame NASRPC for that - which I find baffling. They have, of course , spent years trying to have their voice heard - to no avail.
They've been the people who were meant to be at the FCP table for the last six months and did nothing.
I mean, what do you want here? Do you get someone else to load and shoot for you in a match as well or something?
If I'd asked them what the NASRPC had proposed as the rules for pistol ownership before we posted up that particular document here, would they have known?They'll tell you if they feel represented - and they will tell you if they think it is the NASRPCs fault.
If I'd asked them if NASRPC officers had applied for a grant that wasn't theirs while claiming to be officers of another organisation, would they have known the answer?
If you won't inform your own members B'man, when you're the Public Relations Officer, how would they know about the FCP? And if you know so little about it that you constantly show you don't know the basics of how it's set up, how would you inform them properly?0 -
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