The Ultimate Survival Knife [Read Mod post #175]

Hibrion

Following on from the recent knife thread, I'm starting this one to see how many people are interested in helping design the 'ultimate survival knife'.

With enough support, we know this works. It was done on the hunting forum with the 'ultimate Irish hunting knife thread':
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055487267

This one was a real hit and I ended up buying one off Davy myself; so I can certainly say any knife emerging from our thread will be well built.

The first order of business is to see who is interested in this project. The plan is that at the end of the build the knife will be passed around to those interested to 'test out' and review.

It stands to reason that you must be over 18 to participate in the pass around. I think a minimum of 200 posts would be a good idea. We can have a max of 12 to keep it feasible. However, the more that participate in the build the better the knife will be.

Post your support in this thread if you are up for the project. For now, hold back on your suggestions for the knife as these will be done one by one and through a series of polls.

Mods: I hope this is ok with you guys?

davymoore

Interested in this thread, NOT partaking in the passaround

krissovo

Chalk me down

Doc Ruby

I'll be poncing around Paris with a big camera and a beret for the next while so I'm not sure how much of a contribution I can make, the pic and text in the last thread should do it.

I will say this though; a hunting knife, a camp knife, and a bush/survival knife are three different things. Even if some might not like larger knives for whatever reason, I wouldn't go near a small knife without a companion larger knife for bushcraft purposes.

Hibrion

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I'll be poncing around Paris with a big camera and a beret for the next while so I'm not sure how much of a contribution I can make, the pic and text in the last thread should do it.

I will say this though; a hunting knife, a camp knife, and a bush/survival knife are three different things. Even if some might not like larger knives for whatever reason, I wouldn't go near a small knife without a companion larger knife for bushcraft purposes.

Have a look at the thread whenever you can and vote on everything you can. This is not the type of thing that will happen quickly, so you will have plenty of time to contribute

krissovo

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I wouldn't go near a small knife without a companion larger knife for bushcraft purposes.

This is why I think we need a two in one for it to be called a "Ultimate", a main "big" knife and an additional smaller one incorporated into the sheath similar in principle to a kukri and Karda.

If I look at the basics of what I want in a survival knife:

Primary = Reliable - Must be strong and take punishment
Hold an edge - Must be able to hold an edge for example to complete butchering a animal or chop branches without continuous sharpening
Multi purpose - Without losing any of the primary goals
Drop point style blade

Basic Knife Tasks:

Shelter
Large knife - chopping 2" - 4" branches, stripping branches, hammer nails/pins (secondary task)
Small knife - cutting cord/rope/vines

Fire
Large Knife - chopping logs up to ~20", splitting, kindling
Small Knife - kindling

Food
Large knife - Skinning, Butchery, chopping veg, trap preparation/carving
Small knife - Skinning, filleting, preparing veg, intricate carving

Additional tasks:
Wire cutting
Breaking glass - Toughened
Digging
Carving

Its in no way a comprehensive list but they would be my activities.

Hibrion

Don't worry about specifics yet, lads. At the moment we are only gauging interest.

Questions on what we want to use it for will come next then more specifics on forma and function.
By working together, we might even learn how to use a knife more to our advantage in the field.

Grizzly 45

I'm there on this one.I like what Krisovo said too,that maybe this should be a big knife/little knife set??

PS both design and pass round.

waterfordham

Interested in the thread NOT in the pass-around.

ShadowFox

Very interested in a custom knife once cost and style has been sorted out

Odysseus

I would be interested in the pass around and will help in anyway I can.

Tigger

Very interested in this tbh

Hibrion

Ok guys, we are starting to get some interest int his project now. Before we decide any of the design factors (that includes size of knife, whether it will be one or two, or anything else like that), what are the MAIN jobs you expect out of a survival knife?

Lets not make this a debate yet. My ideas on what I would like will be very different to each of yours. For now, if we could just list OUR OWN preferences that would be great.

For me, my main concern is cutting ability. I want something that will be able to feather a stick, cut through natural and man made cordage and be able to carry out the basic carving duties one needs to make key elements of kit while in the wilderness: pot hangers, basic camp cutlery, stakes, etc. and the option for it to be used to split branches and very small logs for fire wood if needed.

The ability to strike a fire steel is something I see as essential as strikers can be easily lost.

Hammering duties do not concern me too much as there are alternatives in nature that can be used easily.

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

Ok guys, we are starting to get some interest int his project now. Before we decide any of the design factors (that includes size of knife, whether it will be one or two, or anything else like that), what are the MAIN jobs you expect out of a survival knife?

Lets not make this a debate yet. My ideas on what I would like will be very different to each of yours. For now, if we could just list OUR OWN preferences that would be great.

For me, my main concern is cutting ability. I want something that will be able to feather a stick, cut through natural and man made cordage and be able to carry out the basic carving duties one needs to make key elements of kit while in the wilderness: pot hangers, basic camp cutlery, stakes, etc. and the option for it to be used to split branches and very small logs for fire wood if needed.

The ability to strike a fire steel is something I see as essential as strikers can be easily lost.

Hammering duties do not concern me too much as there are alternatives in nature that can be used easily.

Really id be the same as yourself once it holds a good edge around 4 to 5" blade

Grizzly 45

For me it is going have to be an all round tool designed for extreme conditions.That means being able to do some chopping,[even to the point of having to be possibly able to punch thru a car door or roof ]
Also it will have to be somthing that is easily maintained ,easily sharpned steel,and also tough enough to be used if need be as a prying impliment.As well as being able to be able to gut and butcher game from a moose downwards.
So I am looking at a single piece construction.Grip material,could also be for me paracord or micrata.Est a 8to 9in blade MAX .Over that they become impractical IMO.
Its quite an order in a single blade.:eek:

Tigger

Strength is the number one for me once it's really strong and can hold a blade it's half way there.

If brute force isn't working you're not using enough

Hibrion

So far we all want something sharp enough to cut anything you will come across, easy to keep sharp and re-sharpen and strong enough to be used to pry stuff, ale to strike a firesteel and comfortable enough for basic carving.

Great, keep it coming.

Anyone else have anything to add?

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

So far we all want something sharp enough to cut anything you will come across, easy to keep sharp and re-sharpen and strong enough to be used to pry stuff, ale to strike a firesteel and comfortable enough for basic carving.

Great, keep it coming.

Anyone else have anything to add?

I agree with Grizzly on the handle paracord is nice or a handle that can be removed so it can be changed to paracord if you wish

Tigger

Hibrion wrote: »

So far we all want something sharp enough to cut anything you will come across, easy to keep sharp and re-sharpen and strong enough to be used to pry stuff, ale to strike a firesteel and comfortable enough for basic carving.

Great, keep it coming.

Anyone else have anything to add?

I disagree with the other methods of hammering I want a squared off pommel than I can hammer with if I want.
Basically I want a " if I could Only have one thing" answer

Hibrion

Don't worry about specific design elements yet, guys. We will get to those eventually. For now, all we need to know is what tasks you would want to use such a knife for.

If you want to see how all the features of the knife will be decided have a look at the "ultimate irish hunting knife" thread. I will be following the same steps as Davy, more or less.

Hibrion

Ok. To keep everyone happy I've put up the first of the polls that will shape the knife.

This is also a good way to see who is genuinely interested in the thread. If we don't have enough people voting on the poll, I'll call it a day and we can put the project to rest. there's no sense in wasting Davy's time.

Tigger

Well fixed blade is a no brainer it's a survival tool not an edc
I

Hibrion

Tigger wrote: »

Well fixed blade is a no brainer it's a survival tool not an edc
I

I'd like to think so too, but we will keep everything democratic and vote on all aspects of the build that we can. That way no one can complain

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

I'd like to think so too, but we will keep everything democratic and vote on all aspects of the build that we can. That way no one can complain

Well so far I agree with you Hibrion even if this doesnt go ahead I think ill be contacting you to ask Davy to make one for me either way

krissovo

Hibrion wrote: »

So far we all want something sharp enough to cut anything you will come across, easy to keep sharp and re-sharpen and strong enough to be used to pry stuff, ale to strike a firesteel and comfortable enough for basic carving.

Great, keep it coming.

Anyone else have anything to add?

Hammer & Chop

Hibrion

So far, as I expected, fullt tang is winning. But we had to ask the first question democratically :cool:

Now, I have been thinking. Based on our other threads and what has been said here, it seems that most of us like to use a small to medium knife and either a large camp knife, machete, parang or axe of some sort.

So my suggestion is this: why don't we focus on designing the knife, or the smaller of the two knives for those of you in the two knife category? I think we can only design one knife at a time effectively, and if it's a case that some people do want a small/ big combo, our design could be scaled up and modified accordingly.

This is just a thought I had. But what do YOU guys think?

Odysseus

What about the sheath for the knife, leather or cordura [sp]? For me I would be interested in one that can be hung upside down on a backpack strap or similar. This would mean the blade it would need to be secured within the sheath, so would a strap across the handle do or would it be secured another way.

I seen some of the more tactical knifes with a reversible clip which allow it to be attached upright or the opposite way. Some of these have something within the sheath which tightens or loosens the blade, so that it can take different levels of strength to release the knife. I hope that makes sense, I’m finding it difficult to describe.

Anyway I post some thoughts on the blade itself later; I just thought I would mention the sheath for now or is it too soon for that?

Hibrion

It's never to soon to think about any aspect of the build, but it's best to keep the thread on topic with the current step.

For now, all I need people to think about is:

What tasks they will use the knife for and,

If they want a fixed or folding knife

Tigger

Odysseus wrote: »

What about the sheath for the knife, leather or cordura [sp]? For me I would be interested in one that can be hung upside down on a backpack strap or similar. This would mean the blade it would need to be secured within the sheath, so would a strap across the handle do or would it be secured another way.

I seen some of the more tactical knifes with a reversible clip which allow it to be attached upright or the opposite way. Some of these have something within the sheath which tightens or loosens the blade, so that it can take different levels of strength to release the knife. I hope that makes sense, I’m finding it difficult to describe.

Anyway I post some thoughts on the blade itself later; I just thought I would mention the sheath for now or is it too soon for that?

not leather for me but the knife itself should have 2 or 3 lanyard holes to make sure its never lost and so it can be fixed to a pole as a spear axe or hammer as needed

Hibrion

So what about food processing? I'd like something that can easily process small to large game and chop veggies etc. I think this is a simple requirement and any small knife with a straight edge and a good point is enough to process up to and including deer in Ireland.

I worked for nearly ten years as a butcher, so I find these tasks very easy. What do you guys think?

krissovo

Personally my requirements for a small knife are quite limited and its for basic cutting, skinning, carving/whittling. I would like a simple knife that gives me close control. A straightback or a slight clip point 3" blade, nice thumb ramp with no guard on the bolster.

It does not need much engineering IMO.

Tigger

Hibrion wrote: »

So what about food processing? I'd like something that can easily process small to large game and chop veggies etc. I think this is a simple requirement and any small knife with a straight edge and a good point is enough to process up to and including deer in Ireland.

I worked for nearly ten years as a butcher, so I find these tasks very easy. What do you guys think?

how small is small?

Tigger

krissovo wrote: »

Personally my requirements for a small knife are quite limited and its for basic cutting, skinning, carving/whittling. I would like a simple knife that gives me close control. A straightback or a slight clip point 3" blade, nice thumb ramp with no guard on the bolster.

It does not need much engineering IMO.

i'd be the same

not exactly the ultimate survival knife tho

krissovo

Hibrion wrote: »

So what about food processing? I'd like something that can easily process small to large game and chop veggies etc. I think this is a simple requirement and any small knife with a straight edge and a good point is enough to process up to and including deer in Ireland.

I worked for nearly ten years as a butcher, so I find these tasks very easy. What do you guys think?

I will admit I am shoite at butchery, I have not used anything smaller than 6" to process food (even at home) and this brings the knife into larger territory for me. In the field I process my food with a combination of a 4" mauser and a 12" kukri , not the best combo but its my current kit. Even pigeon I use the Kukri to get it prepared. Only when I am filleting the breast does my mauser come out.

Its looking like my requirements are very different to others so I may be a negative influence on this thread. I am going to take a bit of backwards step and just throw a few ideas around for you lads now and again.

krissovo

Tigger wrote: »

how small is small?

I probably edited it just as you were reading, 3" would be my suggestion.

krissovo

Tigger wrote: »

i'd be the same

not exactly the ultimate survival knife tho

This is why I think the ultimate knife is in fact two knives with a clever sheath.

Tigger

but if you had to pick?

krissovo

Tigger wrote: »

but if you had to pick?

9" blade with a slight weight forward curve but a lot more subtle than a kukri.

Tigger

krissovo wrote: »

9" blade with a slight weight forward curve but a lot more subtle than a kukri.

That's much like what I'd be thinking
Forward heavy 6mm blade 9 inch long and a square pommel

davymoore

Is there a need for two knives? .......... Perhaps there is .

Is it possible then, to design a combo. Large and small in one package, two tools that can work either together or independently.... Now there would be a challenge.

Davy

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

It's never to soon to think about any aspect of the build, but it's best to keep the thread on topic with the current step.

For now, all I need people to think about is:

What tasks they will use the knife for and,

If they want a fixed or folding knife

Ive more use for a small/medium strong fixed blade that holds a good edge easy to sharpen and has a comfortable handle lanyard hole to add wrist strap if needed more general utility work ( IMO what a knife is ment for)

Grizzly 45

Tigger wrote: »

Well fixed blade is a no brainer it's a survival tool not an edc
I

Unless of course you want to build somthing like the Ultima Ratio RAO knife!.:D
http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/english/index.html
look under heaviest folders. An intresting concept a ultra heavy folder with a lock for to turn it into a rigid blade.TBH, the thing that makes me run away from it is it is Italian!!!And like most things from that fine country it is high maintence,beautiful,unnecessarily complicated and breaks down whn you need it most.Speaking from experiance of having an Ex Italian GF,car and shotgun.I'm nor sure I want to risk my ass on one of their knife designs!:eek::)

However I do like its blade shape and design.

@Davvy,re the two knife package.Custom knife maker Frank Voight designed a really nice one called swampmaster back in the 80s.It was a mission specific custom design for swamp survival.Large 12in kurkhi in style big blade,and a smaller 5in utility blade.

Puma have done one for hunting for years,the Oberforester Fervert Waid besteck[senior forester Fervert hunting set,roughly translated]
It looked like a massive Puma Whitehunter blade an a smaller utility Puma knife in a double leather sheath.Was beautiful and functional but very expensive,and not strong enough for a survival knife..Will see if I can find some links to it.



http://www.messerdepot.de/product_info.php/products_id/1689

Tigger

a survival knife isn't a camp knife
the ultimate survival knife is certainly not a small whittling knife

but i suppose a camel is a horse designed by commitee

Hibrion

I like the term "utility blade", Grizzly. That is what I expected would come out of this thread.

I think we can safely say there is enough interest in this project and that no-one wants a folder!!

How about our next poll then: should we focus on designing ONE all purpose, utility, survival knife?

Now.. eh.. who can tell me how to make another poll :eek:

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

I like the term "utility blade", Grizzly. That is what I expected would come out of this thread.

I think we can safely say there is enough interest in this project and that no-one wants a folder!!

How about our next poll then: should we focus on designing ONE all purpose, utility, survival knife?

What size and style of blade are you thinking of?

Hibrion

Well, it's not about just what I think, it's about what everyone wants.

I'll say this though, of all the knives I have I use three knives the most: one custom, one medium priced off the shelf and a cheap off the shelf. The thing is they are all a within a few mm of 4 inches. That's the size I'd go for in an all purpose knife.

I have large blades that include kukhris and all the rest, but I don't really use them. I'm waiting on a custom 9 1/2 ich bowie at the moment, but that is for a very specific purpose.

Blade profile is something I don't have set in my mind at all. There a quite a few that will work really well for this blade, but we will have plenty of time to debate the pros and cons of them; that's when the real fun starts.

Hibrion

It's worth noting too, that what we want to build might not work when Davy gets down to and there will be minor changes as he grinds etc. In fact you can almost expect this to happen. It's part and parcel of a custom blade.

ShadowFox

Hibrion wrote: »

Well, it's not about just what I think, it's about what everyone wants.

I'll say this though, of all the knives I have I use three knives the most: one custom, one medium priced off the shelf and a cheap off the shelf. The thing is they are all a within a few mm of 4 inches. That's the size I'd go for in an all purpose knife.

I have large blades that include kukhris and all the rest, but I don't really use them. I'm waiting on a custom 9 1/2 ich bowie at the moment, but that is for a very specific purpose.

Blade profile is something I don't have set in my mind at all. There a quite a few that will work really well for this blade, but we will have plenty of time to debate the pros and cons of them; that's when the real fun starts.

I mostly use a Mora knife size wise its perfect The things I dont like about it is its hard to sharpen (I mostly just replace it as they are very cheap) and its not very strong When camping I carry a Kershaw Outcast but to be honest I mostly go for the Mora or Ka-Bar / Seal Pup if i want something stronger

Tigger

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Unless of course you want to build somthing like the Ultima Ratio RAO knife!.:D
http://www.extremaratioknivesdivision.eu/english/index.html
look under heaviest folders. An intresting concept a ultra heavy folder with a lock for to turn it into a rigid blade.TBH, the thing that makes me run away from it is it is Italian!!!And like most things from that fine country it is high maintence,beautiful,unnecessarily complicated and breaks down whn you need it most.Speaking from experiance of having an Ex Italian GF,car and shotgun.I'm nor sure I want to risk my ass on one of their knife designs!:eek::)

However I do like its blade shape and design.

@Davvy,re the two knife package.Custom knife maker Frank Voight designed a really nice one called swampmaster back in the 80s.It was a mission specific custom design for swamp survival.Large 12in kurkhi in style big blade,and a smaller 5in utility blade.

Puma have done one for hunting for years,the Oberforester Fervert Waid besteck[senior forester Fervert hunting set,roughly translated]
It looked like a massive Puma Whitehunter blade an a smaller utility Puma knife in a double leather sheath.Was beautiful and functional but very expensive,and not strong enough for a survival knife..Will see if I can find some links to it.



http://www.messerdepot.de/product_info.php/products_id/1689

thanks now i have to buy a rao

Hibrion

Are you using a carbon Mora clipper or a different type? My carbon Mora is by far the easiest knife to sharpen that I own.

I agree that they could be sharper a full tang version would be nice. I have a USMC knife and havn't got much use for it and I don't much of the sog seal pup's quality. But everyone is different.

Doc Ruby

grapeape wrote: »

lanyard hole to add wrist strap if needed more general utility work ( IMO what a knife is ment for)

Thats the good thing about a nice big pommel, you can tie off the cordage just beneath it, especially if the handle is grooved.