ANOTHER example of the 1%'s hideous corruption - el & other doubters take note

hatrickpatrick

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

El. & co, feel like justifying THIS one? I can't wait to hear how people attempt to defend this...

THE resident of this luxury mansion has bank debts of €2.8bn but is paid €200,000 a year by NAMA.

Prominent politicians and businessmen have branded developer Joe O'Reilly's position "an absolute outrage" and said "it is no wonder Germany are disgusted with us".

Mr O'Reilly, who developed the Dundrum Town Centre, is NAMA's largest client with debts of €2.8bn.

Yet it is paying him his huge salary with taxpayers' money while allowing him to live in his seven-bed Foxrock mansion complete with indoor swimming pool, sauna, gym, tennis court and golfing facilities.

Today, People Before Profit's Richard Boyd Barrett described the decision as "an absolute outrage that is beyond words".

And veteran businessman Ben Dunne said NAMA was "rubbing our noses in it" when it comes to the treatment some developers.

"People who helped to bankrupt the country are being paid with taxpayer's money while others are being slaughtered by austerity cuts," said Mr Boyd Barrett.

"It beggars belief. The poor and the vulnerable are being pushed over the edge by this," he added.

"This developer has loans he cannot repay to the banks, so the taxpayer has to stump-up and then pay their salary too while suffering cut after cut themselves."

Mr O'Reilly was also one of the Anglo Golden Circle of 10 who agreed to borrow money from the bank to buy up shares being offloaded by the now bankrupt businessman Sean Quinn.

That matter is still under investigation by gardai, the director of corporate enforcement and the financial regulator.

Mr O'Reilly was also one of the largest housing developers in the State through his companies Chartered Land and Castlethorn Construction.

He bought his Foxrock home during the housing boom in the mid-90s. It was a more modest five-bed Victorian residence at the time, but an ambitious list of extensions have transformed it into a luxury mansion. And Mr O'Reilly's negotiations with NAMA ensure that he is in no danger of losing the house.

In the back garden, amenities include a tennis court, a putting green and a sand bunker on half a hectare of lawns overlooked by decking and terraces.

Plans approved by Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council in 2004 for the property include a 20m indoor swimming pool, a private gym, a cinema/games room, a hot tub and sauna and an assortment of recreation and living rooms extending to three floors.

When his loans were first taken into NAMA, O'Reilly and his related companies owed Anglo Irish Bank €1.8bn. More than €1bn is owed to other banks, mostly to AIB.

"I don't know if NAMA are worse or Joe O'Reilly is worse, they're both as bad as each other," businessman Mr Dunne told the Herald.

"Joe O'Reilly has as much chance of living in that house on that money as the man on the moon.

"It's no wonder the Germans are disgusted with us. He's rubbing our noses in it," Mr Dunne added.

Mr O'Reilly's deal with NAMA allows him to remain in his own home and earn a tax payer-funded salary of €200,000 in return for helping to manage his ongoing developments.

Sickening. Absolutely sickening. This is what my tax money is paying for. THIS is why I'm protesting on Dame Street. THIS is why I say our entire system is absolutely rotten to its core. THIS is why I absolutely refuse to accept cuts to health services and social welfare as long as this type of utter corruption is allowed to continue.

PeadarCo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

El. & co, feel like justifying THIS one? I can't wait to hear how people attempt to defend this...



Sickening. Absolutely sickening. This is what my tax money is paying for. THIS is why I'm protesting on Dame Street. THIS is why I say our entire system is absolutely rotten to its core. THIS is why I absolutely refuse to accept cuts to health services and social welfare as long as this type of utter corruption is allowed to continue.

As for him being paid 200k my assumption is that its NAMA's idea to pay people who know a bit about the industry to get the best return for the taxpayer. I assume most big property developers are bust or if not managing their own businesses. Anyone who has better information can correct me. I'd agree that 200k is way way beyond what he should be paid. But whats NAMA reason, whats their side of the story should you not highlight that as well to be fair to both sides.

You've put up a number of threads like this. Highlighting them is only half the work but whats the solution?

As for 200k in the general scheme of thinks I think the Irish times put it best in this article. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1126/1224308182287.html 200k here or there will have no impact. Its small change in the face of a 17billion deficit a deficit that needs to be reduced for us to have any hope of regaining financial independence.

thebman

PeadarCo wrote: »

As for him being paid 200k my assumption is that its NAMA's idea to pay people who know a bit about the industry to get the best return for the taxpayer. I assume most big property developers are bust or if not managing their own businesses. Anyone who has better information can correct me. I'd agree that 200k is way way beyond what he should be paid. But whats NAMA reason, whats their side of the story should you not highlight that as well to be fair to both sides.

You've put up a number of threads like this. Highlighting them is only half the work but whats the solution?

As for 200k in the general scheme of thinks I think the Irish times put it best in this article. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1126/1224308182287.html 200k here or there will have no impact. Its small change in the face of a 17billion deficit a deficit that needs to be reduced for us to have any hope of regaining financial independence.

Whatever happened to save your millions and your billions will come? Be surprised how many of these 200,000 Euro idiotic expenses occur every year I imagine.

Also be surprised how much 200,000 can be put to good use elsewhere.

I imagine NAMA's side of the story is he has expertise or they are paying him to finish properties but he is broke for a reason, he isn't an expert at what he does.

woodoo

Its pretty unpalatable alright. We are living in strange times.

Villa05

PeadarCo wrote: »

As for 200k in the general scheme of thinks I think the Irish times put it best in this article. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1126/1224308182287.html 200k here or there will have no impact. Its small change in the face of a 17billion deficit a deficit that needs to be reduced for us to have any hope of regaining financial independence.

What about implementing this correction in a fair manner, If the people at the top are being rewarded for disastrous decisions, how can you expect people struggling, to pick up the tab. Anarchy is going to break out and I suspect it will be something "small change" that lights the fuse

Don't forget that many of the people picking up the tab are victims of this guy's property ponzi scheme.

Ireland: A country that saves it's banks so that they can feed of her people

independence! for what so these fools can have free reign again

hatrickpatrick

PeadarCo wrote: »

You've put up a number of threads like this. Highlighting them is only half the work but whats the solution?

I say literally cut them off. They don't deserve a single cent of my money or your money. They created their own mess, it's their own responsibility to sort themselves out. We shouldn't be paying them even a bajilionth of a cent.

I'm not talking of developers here, but the entire spectrum of people who are being bailed out, or given golden handshakes where they should simply have been fired in disgrace. It applies to corrupt developers like these, certainly, but ALSO to bankers, former politicians, colluding regulators, you name it.

It makes me sick to my stomach that we will support THIS man who screwed up of his own free will, but we're talking about cutting the amount we pay to people who have lost their jobs BECAUSE of people like him.

If college fees were to be €10,000 per year, we could pay for five students' full time four year degrees with the amount we're paying him per year (rounding it to €200,000)

How many nights could we host a sick or homeless person in a hospital bed with three good meals and a bit of heating for 200 grand?

How many extra trains or busses could we deploy for 200 grand? A thread from 2 years ago puts a driver's salary at around €33,000 per year. Let's add to that a yearly upkeep of €7,000 for servicing an individual bus (If anyone know how much a bus costs in servicing per year shout it out, will make this a better comparison). That's €40,000 for an extra bus. With 200 grand, we could be putting 5 extra busses on the streets for people who commute.

I won't go on, you can come up with your own examples. This is all just from one individual, one of MANY members of the political clique. They shouldn't be getting one single cent from me or any other taxpayer. Their debts are their own debts and their own problem, NOT mine.

nursextreme

THE resident of this luxury mansion has bank debts of €2.8bn but is paid €200,000 a year by NAMA

I wonder how much of his 200k salary is he contributing to paying off his debt? :rolleyes:

PeadarCo

Villa05 wrote: »

What about implementing this correction in a fair manner, If the people at the top are being rewarded for disastrous decisions, how can you expect people struggling, to pick up the tab. Anarchy is going to break out and I suspect it will be something "small change" that lights the fuse

Don't forget that many of the people picking up the tab are victims of this guy's property ponzi scheme.

Ireland: A country that saves it's banks so that they can feed of her people

independence! for what so these fools can have free reign again

I don't think anyone would object to a bit of fairness but even if these guys were paid the minimim wage or even less it would have no serious affect on the cuts and tax rises that need to be done.

SBWife

I'd prefer to pay the guy the €200k and get an extra €1m on the asset being sold to a UK/US vulture fund because the property developer has better negotiation skills than the civil servant who would other wise be doing the job.

The forgone €800k would surely pay a few bus drivers.

Plus the net cost to government is not €200k it's closer to €110k, the gov claw back about 90k in taxes.

hatrickpatrick

PeadarCo wrote: »

I don't think anyone would object to a bit of fairness but even if these guys were paid the minimim wage or even less it would have no serious affect on the cuts and tax rises that need to be done.

I still don't understand what that has to do with anything. This isn't about solving our deficit, this is about justice.

If people who had no involvement have to pay, it should only be after every single benefit paid to those responsible for the mess has been slashed.

To give you an analogy, imagine a shop has 4 employees and one of them ransacks it.
Imagine is costs €100 to repair the damage, and each employee is paid €50.

Now imagine that they ask each employee to cough up €25 to add up to the €100 needed to repair the shop.

Would you not agree that this would be an outrage, and that instead, the employee responsible should forfeit the ENTIRE €50 payment he was entitled to, before those who had nothing to do with the damage then split the remainder of the repair cost between them?
So in other words, that employee loses €50 and the other 3 lose about €17 each.

It's not much of a saving, sure it's only 8 euro per person, but the point is, it's fair. Nobody who didn't cause the mess should have to pay until every single way of making those who were responsible pay has been exhausted. The practical difference their payment makes is irrelevant, this is about morality versus moral bankruptcy.

-Chris-

<devil's advocate>

What level do you need to be at in the PS to earn €200k (inclusive of pension benefits, health benefits etc)? What kind of budget would you oversee?

NAMA have taken over €2.8bn of assets/loans from a developer. In order to maximise their return on those assets/loans, and to minimise the learning curve with regard to the portfolio, NAMA have brought in a consultant who has intimate knowledge of the exact workings of the portfolio.
Without his "insider knowledge", they could make decisions based on poor information, that could cost many multiples of €200k pa.

As unpalatable as it sounds, it could well be a very useful investment that saves them (and the tax payer) far, far in excess of what it costs them in "consultancy" fees.

<devil's advocate>

Separately, I'll wait to see what happens with the investigations by the gardai, the director of corporate enforcement and the financial regulator before I storm the Dáil.

charlemont

They are laughing at us all !!

You have to be a chancer to get on in Ireland now...

-Chris-

charlemont wrote: »

You have to be a chancer to get on in Ireland now...

So, no change then...

SBWife

Was someone not paying attention when his parents gave him the "Life's not fair speech"?

It certainly seems that way.

PeadarCo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I still don't understand what that has to do with anything. This isn't about solving our deficit, this is about justice.

If people who had no involvement have to pay, it should only be after every single benefit paid to those responsible for the mess has been slashed.

To give you an analogy, imagine a shop has 4 employees and one of them ransacks it.
Imagine is costs €100 to repair the damage, and each employee is paid €50.

Now imagine that they ask each employee to cough up €25 to add up to the €100 needed to repair the shop.

Would you not agree that this would be an outrage, and that instead, the employee responsible should forfeit the ENTIRE €50 payment he was entitled to, before those who had nothing to do with the damage then split the remainder of the repair cost between them?
So in other words, that employee loses €50 and the other 3 lose about €17 each.

It's not much of a saving, sure it's only 8 euro per person, but the point is, it's fair. Nobody who didn't cause the mess should have to pay until every single way of making those who were responsible pay has been exhausted. The practical difference their payment makes is irrelevant, this is about morality versus moral bankruptcy.

Fairness and justice are subjective in many respects. It is about our deficit and economy in general. People are complaining about the mess the economy is in. During the boom not many complained while the actions that caused the mess took place. Also who caused the mess. Where should the blame start or end? There have been entire threads about this on Boards and from what I've read theres no clear agreement on whos to blame.

washman3

Some of the posts here are laughable, just goes to show where we have arrived as a nation when we still have intellegent people defending this ganster/charleten/spoofer/galway tent contributor. thats what he and his ilk are,nothing more,nothing less.
I have posted here since day 1 that NAMA is nothing more than a gigantic scam that was introduced to protect gansters like this guy. it was aimed at buying time for them and hoping that this would all blow over and they would be back in business as normal. For years this was the tactic of successive governments.
The perception that "ah sure 200k is just a drop in the ocean compared to our overall debts" is absolutely sickening. its the many 200k's over the years that has caused this mess..
We also have the various vested interests posting here who will ridicule anyone who dares to question this corruption. their usual line is: "rather than expose corruption,come up with an alternative"
This is the vested interest code for "let those who bankrupt the country walk away scot free" :mad:
P.S. hats off to those people on Dame St.

charlemont

washman3 wrote: »

Some of the posts here are laughable, just goes to show where we have arrived as a nation when we still have intellegent people defending this ganster/charleten/spoofer/galway tent contributor. thats what he and his ilk are,nothing more,nothing less.

I'd be hard-pressed to use those words to describe a large amount of our fellow country men and women.


[/QUOTE]I have posted here since day 1 that NAMA is nothing more than a gigantic scam that was introduced to protect gansters like this guy. it was aimed at buying time for them and hoping that this would all blow over and they would be back in business as normal. For years this was the tactic of successive governments.
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately you may as well be talking to the wall..
Big problem here is so many people were brought up in school and church to take orders and listen to those above you, So this has carried on and lots of people here simply cannot think for themselves they need to be told what to do..And the people doing the telling are nothing but a shifty bunch of gombeens, peadophiles and yes men.

washman3

charlemont wrote: »

I'd be hard-pressed to use those words to describe a large amount of our fellow country men and women.

Yes, i should have said supposedly intelligent people.!!!!

I have posted here since day 1 that NAMA is nothing more than a gigantic scam that was introduced to protect gansters like this guy. it was aimed at buying time for them and hoping that this would all blow over and they would be back in business as normal. For years this was the tactic of successive governments.
[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately you may as well be talking to the wall..
Big problem here is so many people were brought up in school and church to take orders and listen to those above you, So this has carried on and lots of people here simply cannot think for themselves they need to be told what to do..And the people doing the telling are nothing but a shifty bunch of gombeens, peadophiles and yes men.[/QUOTE]

Probably the best explanation i've read on Boards.ie and its definately true.

Villa05

PeadarCo wrote: »

theres no clear agreement on whos to blame.

Bertie Ahern - Is that clear enough for you

Giving Banks free reign
Bench-marking
Galway Tent
Over spending

Roll back all 4, we would have no problems

cast_iron

washman3 wrote: »

We also have the various vested interests posting here who will ridicule anyone who dares to question this corruption. their usual line is: "rather than expose corruption,come up with an alternative"
This is the vested interest code for "let those who bankrupt the country walk away scot free" :mad:

Well of course these guys should be made to pay what they can. Someone above asked a good question....how much of his 200k salary goes to paying his debts? None no doubt. Scandalous.

However, whatever the motives of those "various vested interests" as you call them, what alternative to do you have for managing Joe O'Rielly's portfolio?

PeadarCo

Villa05 wrote: »

Bertie Ahern - Is that clear enough for you

Giving Banks free reign
Bench-marking
Galway Tent
Over spending

Roll back all 4, we would have no problems

I agree with 4 above but what about the people who bought the houses, the planners who gave planning permission, the people who voted Bertie and co in 3 successive times.

-Chris-

...the regulator that didn't regulate
The foreign banks that loaned money while turning a blind eye to how unsustainable the local banks' business plan was
The developers who pushed up prices and the public who paid those prices
The home buyers who took out mortgages based on fabricated information (borrowing your deposit from the credit union, getting a letter from your employer that inflated your earnings) and the mortgage brokers who accepted this without question
The developers who glad-handed the politicians in return for a blind eye turned, and the politicians who accepted it
The Taxi drivers who owned multiple investment properties in Eastern Europe
Blah, blah, blah, blah, etc. etc....

Everyone was to blame, and it's been done a thousand times, and it's only barely relevant to this thread (unless you want virtually every thread in the Irish Economy forum to go down the exact same route).

Meh!

charlemont

Villa05 wrote: »

Bertie Ahern - Is that clear enough for you

Giving Banks free reign
Bench-marking
Galway Tent
Over spending

Roll back all 4, we would have no problems

The problems are a lot deeper than that, It includes the brain drain of emigration, The small island mentality which seems to treat emigration as necessary, Our reliance on foreign investment instead as if we were too stupid ourselves to create multinationals, etc Iv to go away I'll rejoin this thread later.

Debtocracy

Funding the luxury lifestyle of an individual who directly contributed to the housing crash costs a lot more than 200k. Stories like Mr. O’ Reilly will greater motivate people to engage in tax avoidance, welfare fraud, strikes etc. Therefore, the issue of perceived fairness is a major economic factor. If the social contract is perceived to be broken at the top of society (i.e. Heads you win, Tails you win), don’t expect the social contract to stay too long in the rest of society.

Good loser

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/this-man-owes-euro28bn-but-gets-euro200k-a-year-to-live-here-2946689.html

El. & co, feel like justifying THIS one? I can't wait to hear how people attempt to defend this...



Sickening. Absolutely sickening. This is what my tax money is paying for. THIS is why I'm protesting on Dame Street. THIS is why I say our entire system is absolutely rotten to its core. THIS is why I absolutely refuse to accept cuts to health services and social welfare as long as this type of utter corruption is allowed to continue.

You're young hatrick and you obviously don't know much about how the world works.

Taking your opinions from the Herald and the likes of Ben Dunne confirms your immaturity.

You scatter invective and outrage like confetti. Be cool.

The decision to give JOR the job seems perfectly sensible to me.

For starters those who know the situation best saw fit to do so. Give them the benefit of the doubt until some facts emerge to show otherwise.

Regarding pay for a €1bn to €2bn portfolio of assets €200 k is a modest enough salary, plus if taxed it will reduce to 110 k apparently. Proportionality is everything in these situations.

I see no hideous corruption here atall.

shaca

So NAMA has a portfolio of properties to try and sell off right. Well I have 2 friends who are getting married next year. They were looking for a home and put a bid in, for the asking price, on a house on the nama books. It took ages for them to get a reply and would you believe, the offer was refused:eek: Since then they have heard a similar story from another couple. I would have thought that NAMA would be only too happy to get properties off their books.

amacachi

shaca wrote: »

So NAMA has a portfolio of properties to try and sell off right. Well I have 2 friends who are getting married next year. They were looking for a home and put a bid in, for the asking price, on a house on the nama books. It took ages for them to get a reply and would you believe, the offer was refused:eek: Since then they have heard a similar story from another couple. I would have thought that NAMA would be only too happy to get properties off their books.

No, then the loss would actually be counted. NAMA is to the housing market as RA is to the rental market, they both exist to keep prices inflated.

anymore

PeadarCo wrote: »

As for him being paid 200k my assumption is that its NAMA's idea to pay people who know a bit about the industry to get the best return for the taxpayer. I assume most big property developers are bust or if not managing their own businesses. Anyone who has better information can correct me. I'd agree that 200k is way way beyond what he should be paid. But whats NAMA reason, whats their side of the story should you not highlight that as well to be fair to both sides.

You've put up a number of threads like this. Highlighting them is only half the work but whats the solution?

As for 200k in the general scheme of thinks I think the Irish times put it best in this article. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1126/1224308182287.html 200k here or there will have no impact. Its small change in the face of a 17billion deficit a deficit that needs to be reduced for us to have any hope of regaining financial independence.

You are assuming somone in that position wants to get the best position possible for NAMA !
I actually think that level oif naiviety is quite funny
P.S the attitude is always " Its only "

washman3

Good loser wrote: »

The decision to give JOR the job seems perfectly sensible to me.

For starters those who know the situation best saw fit to do so. Give them the benefit of the doubt until some facts emerge to show otherwise.

Regarding pay for a €1bn to €2bn portfolio of assets €200 k is a modest enough salary, plus if taxed it will reduce to 110 k apparently. Proportionality is everything in these situations.

I see no hideous corruption here atall.

This is the kind of waffle that i spoke about earlier. incredible that people are hoodwinked into believing this tripe. This guy is a ganster and most of those that made this decision were up to their neck in the property game. Some were actually friends of this guy.
For a start he should be left nowhere near this portfolio, it should be managed by an outsider,preferably Swedish or German with no vested interest.
Instead of living in absolute luxury at the taxpayers expense he should be locked up,on remand,awaiting trial for treason,just like the prime minister of Iceland is.
It will only be then that any semblance of public confidence can be restored.
By the way, i refuse to even type this guys name and will only refer to him and other low-lifes like him as "this guy"

n97 mini

Hold on. Kevin Cardiff, a serial civil servant who was in place in the Dept of Finance for the implosion of the economy, "lost" €3.6 billion, is being put forward for a plum job in Europe.

And. If he doesn't get it he comes back to a €200k job and a defined benefit pension, which the tax-payer will pay for the rest of his life.

At least the bankrupt developers have something of (diminished) value going into NAMA, for which the tax-payer will get some value.

zero_hope

Yes a failed developer is clearly the most qualified person to be in charge of NAMA. I can't see anything go wrong in any way.

[Jackass]

I wish i could build my dream home with someone else's money, and run a business a live like a billionaire off someone elses money and directly contribute to the bankrupting of an entire nation, and then keep all the stuff everyone else paid for and get a nice 6 figue salary reward too.

I owed AIB a couple of grand I was struggling to pay back out of social welfare when i couldn't find a job, and i felt like i was being hunted like a paedophile the amount they harrassed and threatend me.

I should have owed them 2.8 billion, then they'd show me a little respect and afford me some dignity.

BombayMix

Good loser wrote: »

You're young hatrick and you obviously don't know much about how the world works.

Taking your opinions from the Herald and the likes of Ben Dunne confirms your immaturity.

You scatter invective and outrage like confetti. Be cool.

The decision to give JOR the job seems perfectly sensible to me.

For starters those who know the situation best saw fit to do so. Give them the benefit of the doubt until some facts emerge to show otherwise.

Regarding pay for a €1bn to €2bn portfolio of assets €200 k is a modest enough salary, plus if taxed it will reduce to 110 k apparently. Proportionality is everything in these situations.

I see no hideous corruption here atall.

This is the "pragmatic" argument, but it's misleading.
Imagine your the boss in a trading company. One employee trader loses the company €2bn, the largest amount a single person has cost the company ever. But here is the catch, this guy has been working on the portfolio for years and knows it better than anyone else, do you keep him on board?

Of course not.
This guy is the biggest liability in the state.

[Edit]I can't get over this, this is insane. What would this man have to do to find himself on his ass on the street? Obviously running up a €2bn bill isn't enough!

mistermouse

I do believe that developers should be kept on to work on their businesses and try get something back from them as they probably know them best.

I don't believe, however that they should be well paid for the privilage. They should be court mandated to try and payback or work to pay back what they owe on an average wage.

Two things strike me on this though, firstly that they probably spent most of the boom years flying around in Helicoptors and had people running the businesses be it their accounts people and general managers, so therefore may not be that clued into how everything works or went wrong

and secondly, many are asking for debt forgiveness for people who bought homes foolishly during the boom and that they should get to stay in their homes, how does it differ.

Ordinary people who didn't act foolishly, or couldn't afford to or didn't believe the hype are being asked to pay for both scenarios.

I don't believe in debt forgiveness for anyone like proposed, everyone have to should work to pay it off and be seen to loose things in accordance with their debt

Cookie_Monster

-Chris- wrote: »

Everyone was to blame, and it's been done a thousand times, and it's only barely relevant to this thread (unless you want virtually every thread in the Irish Economy forum to go down the exact same route).

Meh!

Everyone is not to blame, and I for one, am sick of hearing that lame excuse

washman3

[Jackass] wrote: »

I wish i could build my dream home with someone else's money, and run a business a live like a billionaire off someone elses money and directly contribute to the bankrupting of an entire nation, and then keep all the stuff everyone else paid for and get a nice 6 figue salary reward too.

I owed AIB a couple of grand I was struggling to pay back out of social welfare when i couldn't find a job, and i felt like i was being hunted like a paedophile the amount they harrassed and threatend me.

I should have owed them 2.8 billion, then they'd show me a little respect and afford me some dignity.

Or you should have joined FF many years ago and become a contributor to the Galway Tent. Then you could virtually do as you please without any fear of retribution. :mad:

-Chris-

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Everyone is not to blame, and I for one, am sick of hearing that lame excuse

OK, Everyone is not correct, but neither is trying to point the finger at the big, bad 1%.

Without meaning to drag the thread off-topic, I believe a significant, significant number of the population (I'd think you could categorise it as a large majority of the working population) got caught up in a credit trap that overinflated everything and created the situation we currently find ourselves in.
This frenzy also provided the environment in which people like JOR could make the massive money, and massive mistakes, that we're discussing in this thread.

I'd think you'd find it hard to throw a stone and not hit someone who was to "blame" for the current situation tbh.

Bleating on about the property developers and Bertie destroying the country is simplistic and inaccurate in my view.

SBWife

zero_hope wrote: »

Yes a failed developer is clearly the most qualified person to be in charge of NAMA. I can't see anything go wrong in any way.

How do you feel about a former ESB accountant as chief executive of NAMA?

If you're going to object to stuff it'd be more valid if you actually got your facts straight.

murphaph

NAMA should take this prick's mansion in Foxrock off him and sell it, using the proceeds to pay someone from outside the small world of Irish property developers to manage his "portfolio".

It may in some cases be biting off our noses to spite our faces, but the whole NAMA paying failed developers should never have happened. These guys should be chased into the courts and have everything stripped from them.

Villa05

PeadarCo wrote: »

I agree with 4 above but what about the people who bought the houses, the planners who gave planning permission, the people who voted Bertie and co in 3 successive times.

Bought house to live in, Hitler had an effective propoganda machine so had Bertie. Buy now or you won't be able to afford it next year, lending requirements continually relaxed to create this illusion

Planners - Berties soldiers

Voters - Read this thread - Many believe Mr O Reilly is great value at 200k to manage the portfolio from hell, he created, no alternative. This is the kind of thinking that voted in scum for 3 successive terms

Look at ACC a division of Rabo a triple A rated bank (still) who were ruthless and took their developers to the cleaners to get back what they can. This state took the toxic loans from the Banks and let Public servants deal with recouping losses. Are banks not the most experienced in this field.

SBWife

murphaph wrote: »

NAMA should take this prick's mansion in Foxrock off him and sell it, using the proceeds to pay someone from outside the small world of Irish property developers to manage his "portfolio".

It may in some cases be biting off our noses to spite our faces, but the whole NAMA paying failed developers should never have happened. These guys should be chased into the courts and have everything stripped from them.

If he has personal guarantees on the debt his debtors will get the house eventually, meantime it's being lived in and kept up which wouldn't necessary be the case if it were foreclosed on. If there are no personal guarantees and the debt is only that of the corporations which he ran/owned there may well be no recourse to the home.

That's the law, and personally I'd like the law to be upheld. If agencies of the state taking properties because it's politically expedient to do so I'll be on the next plane out, and so will anyone else with any sense.

sunshinediver

The arguement that these developer folk know the business better than anyone is full of holes and easliy contradicted. The fact they're even in NAMA is a damning insight into their specialist "market knowledge".

This article appeared in the Irish examiner two years ago and has probably popped up here before, It would appear that NAMA is certainly the most favourable outcome for most developers.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/mountcharles-developers-toasted-nama-rescue-in-spain-101459.html

Villa05

Many of the posters here believe NAMA is correct (or see nothing wrong) with this decision.

Nama is a Quango that bought up huge amounts of commercial toxic loans with LTEV premium built in on the assumption that upward only rent reviews were here to stay in the economic climate, as it was in 2010.

If i came to that conclusion on a basic Junior Cert Economics paper, I would expect to receive a FAIL.

hatrickpatrick

SBWife wrote: »

Was someone not paying attention when his parents gave him the "Life's not fair speech"?

It certainly seems that way.

The thing about life not being fair is that life itself isn't fair. It does not mean we should stand back and allow injustice to happen when we see it front of us, and have it within our power to stop it.

hatrickpatrick

[Jackass] wrote: »

I owed AIB a couple of grand I was struggling to pay back out of social welfare when i couldn't find a job, and i felt like i was being hunted like a paedophile the amount they harrassed and threatend me.

I should have owed them 2.8 billion, then they'd show me a little respect and afford me some dignity.

This. This this this this this this this.
You summed up in two paragraphs what it took me several long posts seething with pure fury to articulate. Thank you, sir.

That's basically how it works today. If you owe them gigantic debts from playing gambling games you get bailed out, if you owe them household debts the government has no problem letting you be thrown out onto the streets with nothing.

Some democratic society we live in

PeadarCo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This. This this this this this this this.
You summed up in two paragraphs what it took me several long posts seething with pure fury to articulate. Thank you, sir.

That's basically how it works today. If you owe them gigantic debts from playing gambling games you get bailed out, if you owe them household debts the government has no problem letting you be thrown out onto the streets with nothing.

Some democratic society we live in

Whats your solution? Its easy to complain, its far harder when you have to make the decsions and weigh up the pros and cons of the different options. At worst it could be a case of taking the least bad option.

As for democracy why not set up your own party or run as an independent. If your so unhappy go out and actually do something complaining on boards.ie doesn't solve anything.

cast_iron

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If you owe them gigantic debts from playing gambling games you get bailed out, if you owe them household debts the government has no problem letting you be thrown out onto the streets with nothing.

You paint it like the sole intention was to screw the public and bail out the developers. The truth it that it was an undesired (or perhaps desired, who knows) side effect of what they thought had to be done to put things right. Surely it was political suicide if they only wanted to save developers....so why would they do it?

hatrickpatrick

PeadarCo wrote: »

Whats your solution? Its easy to complain, its far harder when you have to make the decsions and weigh up the pros and cons of the different options. At worst it could be a case of taking the least bad option.

How about hunting this guy down for his debts and not paying him from the taxpayer's pocket when he had a hand in causing all of this? Is that such a dramatic proposal?The guy owes several billion and THEY'RE paying HIM?!
Do you honestly not see how bizarre and f'ed up that is?

As for democracy why not set up your own party or run as an independent. If your so unhappy go out and actually do something complaining on boards.ie doesn't solve anything.

All revolutions must begin with debate and awareness. If you think Boards is the only avenue I (and others) are using to draw attention to this stuff, you're very much mistaken.

PeadarCo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

How about hunting this guy down for his debts and not paying him from the taxpayer's pocket when he had a hand in causing all of this? Is that such a dramatic proposal?The guy owes several billion and THEY'RE paying HIM?!
Do you honestly not see how bizarre and f'ed up that is?

How could that be done within the law? (no retrospective laws)

hatrickpatrick

PeadarCo wrote: »

How could that be done within the law? (no retrospective laws)

How do banks chase down debts from 'ordinary' people? :rolleyes:

Villa05

cast_iron wrote: »

You paint it like the sole intention was to screw the public and bail out the developers. The truth it that it was an undesired (or perhaps desired, who knows) side effect of what they thought had to be done to put things right. Surely it was political suicide if they only wanted to save developers....so why would they do it?

Were they the Galway tent faithful that the Gov always had an ear for. Entrepreneurs and all that