Racist - Over Reaction?

Motley Crue

So I've been living in the UK now for almost four years solid. I have, to my knowledge, never encountered this problem once before. I was doing some work for a company who shall remain nameless, and there was this line manager type Individual (he wasn't my boss but I knew he was in a position of power in the department for which I worked) and I ran into him on a very infrequent basis.

But here's the thing, I was never formally introduced to him, I just sort of came to know him...and pretty much the second or third time we saw each other, he started making these pretty stupid (and very bad) Irish impressions saying things like "top o' da mornin" to ya" and "tura lura lura"

At first I just feigned a stupid smile, and waved it off, more embarrassed for him then I was for myself. Anyway, when he start doing the same thing in front of other people (as in when I'd be addressing a group and he'd walk into the room and greet me by saying something like this) I didn't even say anything. Of course, on one occasion when he walked away, I turned immediately to someone and said "I wish he'd stop making those stupid remarks"

Still, I didn't see him that much, and I tolerated his immature and stupid nature, until the day last week when he brought a member of the local Council in to meet some of the team at this project. He's in the process of (inaccurately) describing to the Councillor what it is we do when he makes a remark about the fact that if the Councillor wants to make a radio show about the problems surrounding young people's binge drinking he would suggest I present the programme, specifically because I'm Irish, and proceeds then to suggest I present the programme drunk (he starts going on and, I assume, he tries to do an impression of a drunk Irishman)

The Councillor looks horrified, looks at me apologetically, and then looks at him and says "I think that would be playing against a very negative stereotype" or something along those lines and then my manager, whose heard the commotion, walks into the room and changes the subject by talking about the good work we do and the variety of programmes we make. As such, someone mentions I am planning to do a Gaelic show, to which this same person responds "Oh, A Gay Lick show, that's not the kind of thing we could really tolerate at this station, might be a bit improper"

Anyway in some way they leave shortly after, the Councillor looking mortified, and me really upset because I'd hoped if I left it alone he would stop and I certainly would have hoped he'd not embarrassed himself and me in such a big way. I went to my manager and supervisor and explained that I was extremely upset. My supervisor felt it was best that he approach him first and explain the situation.

Having done this, my supervisor said that this individual denies all counts of being called a racist, although I only accused him of making a remark which was deemed racist. He made several, which my manager knows I complained to him about, but which never went further then the two of us at the time. My point in all this is that not only is he refusing to admit wrongdoing, or guilt, or apologise (I don't really want or need an apology) - he almost thinks that I am "too soft" for bringing the matter up in the first place.

Worse still, his wife works in the same building, and her department seems to have now stopped working with mine as a result of this. I can't control what he's told her but I really don't think I overreacted and I tried to do this in the best, but the most firm, manner.

mikemac1

Are you the only one who gets the treatment?

For example are there are Scots in your company and he does the equivalent to them?
Or is there is a German in the company he could be making some ridiculous jingoistic comments about war

The reason I'm asking if he is hassling you it's possible he is doing the same to others.
If all of you get together and approach the bosses or HR, then it will be taken more seriously then just you on your own.

Though your supervisor seems to be doing their job and trying to resolve it

Anyway, even if you do nothing else, keep a log. You can write text messages to yourself and save them for example

Avoid the temptation to give as good as you get as if it goes to a meeting, your retaliation will be brought up.
Booze, chavs, council flats, invading countries, football hooligans, it's easy to get material but don't do it

Daisy M

Your manager or HR need to sort this out. You need to present them with all the facts and people who overheard these comments and let them decide if they believe if he is been racist or just ignorant, either is inappropriate anyway. As for the other department if they are not doing their job report them and let your manager sort this out.

Beruthiel

I would be livid at that type of behaviour and believe I would have pulled him up on it the very first time he started.
We are not a different race to the English so it is bigoted xenophobia more so than racism.

Motley Crue wrote: »

Worse still, his wife works in the same building, and her department seems to have now stopped working with mine as a result of this. I can't control what he's told her but I really don't think I overreacted and I tried to do this in the best, but the most firm, manner.

You need to tell your manager the above.
You did not bring this on yourself.
You don't deserve to get more sh!ty treatment because of it.

Remind your manager that you tolerated this crap from your man for a long time for the greater good of trying not to cause trouble and that the behaviour in the presence of the Councillor was the last straw for you.
You were prepared to put up with the bigotry while alone with him but in the company of others it was just too much to take.
And now, because you had the audacity to point it out, you're the one getting punished.
Not on.

Motley Crue

All good points, thank you for sharing, if anything develops I will let you know.

curlzy

Hey OP,

My Dad is English and Mam is Irish so unfortunately I get this from both sides, I'm a drunk Paddy to the English and a Black & Tan to the Irish :rolleyes: I've come up against it much more over here than I ever have in England but that could be to do with the fact I live here and I'm only in England 3/4 times a year. I think you've gotton some excellent advise and don't have anything to add to it. Just wanted to say that while it's irritating just remember that it's really just showing the other person's ignorance and you shouldn't be embarassed by it. I usually respond by laughing in the person's face and walking away muttering "****ing idiot" audibly Maybe not the way to go in a professional setting though. Really just wanted to add my support and say I hope you can get it sorted out soon.

~Best of luck.

Fentdog84

Came up against something similiar when I was working in Australia. A bit of friendly joking/banter is fine I dont mind it personally, but if it is something ongoing and contemptous you need to follow it through and make sure he dosent do it to you anymore because what he's doing is bullying, basically. There are people in this world who dont like us Irish for various reasons(particularly in UK) or who have stereotypes to that effect, so you are going to come up against this kind of thing Im afraid.

LegacyUser

I wouldn't be too offended. English people over in Ireland get similar (if not much worse) abuse by the Irish. There seems to be a generally acceptable tolerance of ribbing between English and Irish. In my experience though only Irish get outrageously offended which is probably down to the fact that we are more insecure as a people (probably due to the fact that were tiny and unimportant compared to England!)

Anyway, unless hes actually being serious with these insults then I wouldn't even bother. At the end of the day hes only making himself look like an idiot.

Accusing him of racism (it would be xenophobia anyway) is completley over the top. If found guilty this guy could lose his job and be completely unemployable. Think about that.

Dudess

Yeah, from your description OP, I don't know whether there was hate-filled bigotry present. I know I'm not in your shoes, but looking at it from the outside, it seems to me he was saying silly things, which I know were embarrassing and he acted like an idiot, but I think it would be better to have complained that he was making you and others feel uncomfortable, and while it wasn't hate-filled, too much of it is inappropriate. I'd be more inclined to report him for tactlessness and crassness rather than racism, which as pointed out, is an extremely serious allegation in the workplace.

Just my take anyway.

Fentdog84

UROTT wrote: »

I wouldn't be too offended. English people over in Ireland get similar (if not much worse) abuse by the Irish. There seems to be a generally acceptable tolerance of ribbing between English and Irish. In my experience though only Irish get outrageously offended which is probably down to the fact that we are more insecure as a people (probably due to the fact that were tiny and unimportant compared to England!)

Anyway, unless hes actually being serious with these insults then I wouldn't even bother. At the end of the day hes only making himself look like an idiot.

Accusing him of racism (it would be xenophobia anyway) is completley over the top. If found guilty this guy could lose his job and be completely unemployable. Think about that.

Good point. Sounds like you could be overreacting here OP and accusing someone of racism is as serious in a work enviroment as it gets.Obviously he's going to deny it either way.
Tbh, this guy sounds more David Brent than Oliver Cromwell.

Ickle Magoo

That's completely unacceptable - and utterly unprofessional to boot. Certainly pull him up on it yourself and I think you'd be well within your rights to tell him exactly what you think of him.

If he does it in front of others then make a note of what was said and in-front of whom and pass that along to both HR and your manager as witnesses. I'd also keep a record yourself of everything said, when, where and to whom.

The man's an ignorant imbecile and I'm sure any employer worth their salt doesn't want anyone representing them who thinks nationality or race or gender can be commented upon in such a manner in 2011 in the professional arena.

All the very best.

Distorted

In addition to the above comments, I would say that local authorities in the UK are so filled with politically correct people and systems and rules and guidelines, its surprising that anyone in a position of authority would be unaware or foolish enough to make such remarks. Which makes me wonder if he is doing it deliberately? Would he have any motivation for this, such as trying to get you a label as a troublemaker? Have you tried having a casual word with him on a one to one basis, just saying "Sorry, but you realise that these remarks/jokes may seem quite harmelss but they actually fall under the same bracket as what you may think is more overt racism?". Maybe he just doesn't realise and is particularly dense, or maybe his doing it deliberately...

Ickle Magoo

Motley Crue doesn't make any reference to working in a local authority agency tho...so perhaps his company isn't so filled with all those politically correct people and systems and rules and guidelines?

jimmycrackcorm

Op, I'd simply have a quiet word with the guy in question to point out that you'd rather not go to HR but ask him does he realize that his jokes and remarks are insensitive. Ask would he be content to make similar type comments about gay people or black / Asian people.

Give specific references as you have mentioned to back up the facts. Its more than likely that he doesn't actually see your point of view.

Personally I'd also have a plan B to record the conversation just in case HR would end up getting involved.

jpm4

Can't believe people are defending this guy's behaviour - if it's happening repeatedly then it's bullying, plain and simple. It happening in front of a person external to the company is shocking really, should not be tolerated.

Dudess

I've read the thread again and I don't see any defence of his behaviour.
I do see people saying he was being moreso boorish and embarrassing and unfunny rather than racist and hate-filled though.

Ickle Magoo

He wouldn't be the first xenophobe/racist/hate-filled ignoramus to try to circumvent serious consequences by using passive aggression/disguised in bad humour - either way if it is unacceptable in the work place then it is the job of the OP's boss and HR department to deal with him and insist on what is or is not acceptable in the workplace they manage.

tawnyowl

UROTT wrote: »

I wouldn't be too offended. English people over in Ireland get similar (if not much worse) abuse by the Irish. There seems to be a generally acceptable tolerance of ribbing between English and Irish. In my experience though only Irish get outrageously offended which is probably down to the fact that we are more insecure as a people (probably due to the fact that were tiny and unimportant compared to England!)

It's happening in a work environment, has made the OP quite uncomfortable and is quite unprofessional.

Anyway, unless hes actually being serious with these insults then I wouldn't even bother. At the end of the day hes only making himself look like an idiot.

According to the OP, it has been going on for some time and it has made at least one person - a local councillor - uncomfortable.

It's not a one-off or occasional incident, it's a pattern.

Accusing him of racism (it would be xenophobia anyway) is completley over the top. If found guilty this guy could lose his job and be completely unemployable. Think about that.

The guy complained about is behaving quite unprofessionally. It's his decision to come up with these "jokes", not the OPs.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether his behaviour is down to xenophobia or just someone with a terrible sense of humour thinking they're being cool or edgy - this behaviour has made people uncomfortable.

LegacyUser

Op the problem here is that your going to get two types of responses:

One side will be from posters who will say that this guy was only taking the piss and that you over reacted and the otherside will say your 100% and stand by the notion of PC behaviour.

Sadly life is neither of these, as people tend to find different situations and views where both these apply equally.

Personally I think this guy sounds like a socially inept idiot, that even though he is being racist I feel it is only due to his lack of cop-on and common sense than any anti Irish sentiment.

Still he is doing this in a work environment and in front of clients, so you should at least make higher managers aware that he is messing up business with his comments. Also don't be afraid to call him and idiot or even try point out how stupid he sounds.

From living in the uk myself, I have had to deal with fools CONSTANTLY making fun of my accent, even calling me Paddy instead of my real name. Even then when i get annoyed about it, I have been told that its being done in light and stop over-reacting. Basically I just ignore them now, make a fake smile and just mentally note that they are retarded and not to deal with them much. This tends to make it easier to judge who is worth my time or not.

jpm4

Dudess wrote: »

I've read the thread again and I don't see any defence of his behaviour.
I do see people saying he was being moreso boorish and embarrassing and unfunny rather than racist and hate-filled though.

Downplaying his behaviour then or whatever. The racism angle is irrelevant really - if the OP is upset by this kind of thing then it is a problem.

Dudess

Oh of course - nobody's saying the guys' behaviour shouldn't be flagged. He was behaving totally inappropriately. But there's no point in saying it was something that it might not have been.

experiMental

What really annoys me is how much the British can be racist against the Irish, even though they are very similar people, both culturally and genetically.

Dudess

experiMental wrote: »

What really annoys me is how much the British can be racist against the Irish, even though they are very similar people, both culturally and genetically.

And vice versa. You get idiots everywhere.

Svalbard

I have never worked in the UK, but my impression is that they have pretty strict regulations regarding this kind of non-PC stuff, so if you chose to make a formal complaint I find it hard to believe it wouldn't be taken seriously. (Though perhaps when you say you spoke to your manager and seem to have gotten no-where, that was a formal complaint??). If so, there may be an ombudsman for your particular field of work you could speak to.

These of course are only ideas. As a previous poster said this man could lose his job or be unemployable if found guilty of racism, or some lesser charge. Maybe just put it down to him being some thick plonker who actually thinks he is being funny?
You could try having a friendly yet direct word with him, letting him know you don't find his remarks funny, and if he stops now you wont have to take it further (being sound about it, but hopefully the veiled threat will shut him up). Chances are he had no idea he caused offence, he may be mortified.

Of course if he persists, it's open season.

mikemac1

I wouldn't have a quiet word with him at all. He's pushing boundaries and seeing how far he can go.

If you try to talk to him he could come back and say you retaliated or threatened him if there is a meeting.

By all means talk and get him to stop but bring a witness and/or record on your phone for your records

LegacyUser

I worked in the UK and while some of the jobs were tiresome, they weren't meant with any malice.

Some people over there do not see that it is a sensitive issue for the Irish.

For example, a Welsh guy I worked with would associate Irishness with a certain amount of stupidity (then again you often hear people say "typically Irish")..... he was in his 50s and this was 10 years ago so he would have grown up on Jimmy Cricket and Frank Carson who'd make Irish jokes.

Another guy said to me "I've a really funny email, I'll send it through to you". The email was an image of an "Irish Scarecrow" which had "feck off crows" painted on Sileage bags. I knew the guy and he was an intelligent guy. He just thought, there's something Irish and funny, I'll send it through to him as he'll think it's funny too".

Out for dinner one night and a guy upon hearing that I'm Irish, proceeded to tell Irish jokes to me as he thought that I would find them funny. (Then again, we were in Germany and the guys, all English, had been singing the theme tune to the Dambusters on the way to the restaurant and not one of them used any German to order drinks)

In Oz I was called Paddy by some coworkers and I know a lot of people who would be called "Irish" rather than by their name (over there).

I responded to most of these by something along the lines of "you're slagging the Irish, are you serious? You're Welsh!" or "you know, if I was less sensitive I might construe that as being racist...... can't I sue someone for that?"

A lot of it was based on ignorance rather than racism.

My girlfriend's mother over there presumed that we were all aloholics......

If you can't get any satisfaction talking to him and explaining your point, then I'd hit him with :

"John (whatever his name is)..... those remarks could be deemed racist and you are offending me each and every time you make them as it portrays Irish people as alcoholics and by dint me, which we are not. If you make another comment like this I will have to take it to HR as I won't stand being insulted like that. It is unprofessional and downright rude"

Ickle Magoo

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pickarooney

The 'good' thing is that this guy is not just annoying you, he's publicly damaging the image of the company with his amateur theatrics and it's only a matter of time before he's pulled up on it by someone in authority.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Having done this, my supervisor said that this individual denies all counts of being called a racist, although I only accused him of making a remark which was deemed racist. He made several, which my manager knows I complained to him about, but which never went further then the two of us at the time. My point in all this is that not only is he refusing to admit wrongdoing, or guilt, or apologise (I don't really want or need an apology) - he almost thinks that I am "too soft" for bringing the matter up in the first place.

I think your supervisor really *really* messed up here.

I have a feeling I know what kind of moron you're dealing with. Type of guy who wants to be seen as the "funnyman" but isn't actually funny so only gets laughs by taking other people down.

The problem is this type of fool isn't actually racist. He just doesn't understand his constant jokes are deeply unprofessional. You didn't act like you cared at the start so he though he could make paddy jokes all he likes and there would be no fallout.

So when he gets told he's a racist its an absolute bombshell. He doesn't remember all the remarks he made and thinks he was 'just 'avin a laff mate'

The supervisor should have just told him he made a show of the company in front of a counciller and that Irish jokes are not on in the workplace - along with an official warning. The R word opens up a huge can of worms.

hunnybunny

Couldn't agree more with bottle of smoke. Whilst annoying the race card is strong and calling racist is wrong.

I am Irish living in England and I do find that there is a bit of banter at times. The only time I ever felt offended was when I was called a "paddy" in a nastyish way (but then again turns out the guy who said it was on something and I didn t realise thats why he was being such a ***t, in fact he was offending everyone in sight) I kind of think this is the case with this bloke. He is just annoying and not funny.

But here's the thing, I was never formally introduced to him, I just sort of came to know him...and pretty much the second or third time we saw each other, he started making these pretty stupid (and very bad) Irish impressions saying things like "top o' da mornin" to ya" and "tura lura lura"

Things like that are annoying but the race is card has been used (not accusing you OP) FAR too much by Irish people in England and sometimes i just think "oh grow a pair".
Though funny enough though calling someone a paddy is a joke but calling someone a paki will cause gasps of shock and horror. However, people from Ireland are generally nearly always white and of the same if not similar race to the English (lets face it most of England is made up of Irish especially in the north west where nearly everyone is Irish or their grandfather was and so on so forth) so therefore its not on the same level as calling someone a paki in my opinion due to racial origins.

For example I as an Irish person got caught up in a "racist" :rolleyes: incident once. There was a bit of banter in the canteen among staff who may I add are mostly 2nd and 3rd generation Irish. Someone jokingly said "oh thats a bit Irish". I didn t even notice. Next day I am called by a member of management and I am told that an Irish staff member said someone made a racist comment of "thats a bit Irish" and that the person thought it was me:eek: My jaw dropped for 3 reasons 1, I am Irish and 2. Its not even offensive 3. She needs to grow up! I had never felt soooo embaressed to be Irish.
Admitidly the woman in question is a well known nutcase and I would stay well away from her normally but this was just beyond hilarious. In seriousness though I have had to warn people in my workplace as you don t know who will make a complaint for what reason.

OP I would write this down to the bloke being plain rude rather than trying to offend you as an Irish person. He probably knows he gets a reaction and thats why he did it. He was being a bit Irish really ;-) (oooooooh now I have said it)

asdf1234

Exact revenge on this chronic stereotypist, perhaps by tarmacing his driveway badly?

Ickle Magoo

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LegacyUser

OP, as someone said, more David Brent than Oliver Cromwell.

Is he an idiot? Thinks he's funny? Or one of people who think saying edgy things is cool?
Eitherway, for me, rascism is a very serious allegation and I wouldn't use it on someone with a crap line in humour. In fact, I would consider than an irresponsible misuse. I agree your supervisor didn't handle it well. Do as someone here advised. Get a HR person or your supervisor or a witness and arrange a very civilised chat where you explain to David Brent that his humour is irrelevant and embarrassing. Just stick to your line regardless of his come back/defense. Be smooth. Talk slowly, over-explain and then say you hope you can be friends. Having to listen to your slow and gentle over-statement of the bleedin obvious should learn him! He can go away thinking you're humourless if he wants, but don't leave him thinking you think he's anything other than a bit slow and behind the times! I would have such fun with that if it was me