Canals - Ulster Earne

swordofislam

Is there economic argument for a massive increase in Ireland's canal network.
Surely in the modern age canals are cheap to build and the cost of transport must be for nothing.

If we built a NETWORK of canals surely they would pay for themselves in jig time.

EDIT: Just looked up cost of Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM.

Looks like Canals are massively expensive and inefficient.

Alkers

swordofislam wrote: »

Is there economic argument for a massive increase in Ireland's canal network.
Surely in the modern age canals are cheap to build and the cost of transport must be for nothing.

If we built a NETWORK of canals surely they would pay for themselves in jig time.

Hardly of any use tbh, you're talking about 5mph tops for barges and I doubt they are many times more efficient than trucks. Plus you would still have to truck goods from the nearest canal to their destination. That is ignoring the cost and effort of actually building the canals and the perfectly good road network we have already spent our money home.

swordofislam

Simona1986 wrote: »

Hardly of any use tbh, you're talking about 5mph tops for barges and I doubt they are many times more efficient than trucks. Plus you would still have to truck goods from the nearest canal to their destination. That is ignoring the cost and effort of actually building the canals and the perfectly good road network we have already spent our money home.

Just looked up Seine Nord Europe Canal.
Did not realise how expensive Canals are to build.

On the other hand with peak oil maybe trucks are a fools paradise.

Alkers

swordofislam wrote: »

Simona1986 wrote: »

Hardly of any use tbh, you're talking about 5mph tops for barges and I doubt they are many times more efficient than trucks. Plus you would still have to truck goods from the nearest canal to their destination. That is ignoring the cost and effort of actually building the canals and the perfectly good road network we have already spent our money home.

Just looked up Seine Nord Europe Canal.
Did not realise how expensive Canals are to build.

On the other hand with peak oil maybe trucks are a fools paradise.

Barges use diesel engines also unless you are suggesting a return to horses?

LeinsterDub

swordofislam wrote: »

On the other hand with peak oil maybe trucks are a fools paradise.

Peak oil won't affect the Irish rail network. When it comes we can just get a few steam locos out of a museum and get the same point to point times we are currently getting

antoobrien

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Peak oil won't affect the Irish rail network. When it comes we can just get a few steam locos out of a museum and get the same point to point times we are currently getting

Yeah and we can burn the turf that the D4 lobby don't want us to cut

robd

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Peak oil won't affect the Irish rail network. When it comes we can just get a few steam locos out of a museum and get the same point to point times we are currently getting

Peak oil has nothing to do with running out of oil. It simply means that they can't extract every increasing quantities of it at an economic price. It essentially means the death knell for 1 person cars and trips 1 mile down the road with the kids to local creche/school. Mass transit systems are likely to benefit not decline as a result.

robd

swordofislam wrote: »

Is there economic argument for a massive increase in Ireland's canal network.
Surely in the modern age canals are cheap to build and the cost of transport must be for nothing.

I'd really love to know what sparks went off in your brain to think of this?

Seriously, this is one of the daftests things I've heard. Canals were replaced by railways which were replaced by tarmacadam roads which were replaced by motorways. This is because each one was better technology that allowed us to transport goods and people at a lower cost.

Railways obviously still have a place, for metro, suburban, high speed intercity and long distance freight.

Wide Canals have a place such as Pananama Canal, Suez Canal and certain canals linking upstream ports but outside of that ZERO. Certainly in Ireland and the UK the narrow canals are strictly for nostalgic historical leisure purposes.

corktina

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

hi5

corktina wrote: »

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

The rivers are the same,all the lough gates on the Barrow have been restored at great cost and no one seems to use them.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

Failte Ireland/Tourism Ireland and past/present governments who couldn't organise a proverbial piss-up. It's the same whatever aspect of Ireland you examine.

trad

Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement the canals in the Republic of Ireland are run by a crowd in Enniskillen in the United Kingdom who, from my experience, do not want to see any commercial traffic on the canals.

Pope John 11

corktina wrote: »

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

Yes, I would love to see alot more use made of our existing canals. Why is this not the case. It would increase tourism by the thousands.

Judgement Day

Pope John 11 wrote: »

Yes, I would love to see alot more use made of our existing canals. Why is this not the case. It would increase tourism by the thousands.

Because we have too many tourism bodies, stuffed with utterly useless senior management - from my direct personal experience over many years.

LeinsterDub

Pope John 11 wrote: »

Yes, I would love to see alot more use made of our existing canals. Why is this not the case. It would increase tourism by the thousands.

Any time I've looked into renting a boat on the Shannon or a canal you'd swear it was a floating ritz you where renting. Very pricey

dubhthach

Given how are urban centers tend to turn their backs on the canals I don't think you really want to be on a canal trip especially in parts of West Dublin.

corktina

i can only suggest you go to Birmingham or one of quite a few UK industrial ciities and see what they've done with their canals.

dubhthach

corktina wrote: »

i can only suggest you go to Birmingham or one of quite a few UK industrial ciities and see what they've done with their canals.

Well that's my point, the planners here completely ignored using the Canals as "urban gateways" as a result this has a knock on effect when it comes to people actually using them in context of Dublin etc.

Compare the boat business on the Shannon in comparison.

swordofislam

Judgement Day wrote: »

Failte Ireland/Tourism Ireland and past/present governments who couldn't organise a proverbial piss-up. It's the same whatever aspect of Ireland you examine.

If you look at where we are now compared with where we were even 5 years ago there is great progress. Waterways Ireland are doing an excellent job.
I saw a design for a wind powered boat a while ago. NOT A SAILING BOAT a windmill. Zero energy, zero emissions and in the post peak oil world a cheap and sensible way to transport goods if you have the necessary canal network (not that we ever will they are not practical).

swordofislam

corktina wrote: »

i can only suggest you go to Birmingham or one of quite a few UK industrial ciities and see what they've done with their canals.

Really like the Birmingham Canal stuff but even a few years ago that area was run down and dangerous.

swordofislam

trad wrote: »

Thanks to the Good Friday Agreement the canals in the Republic of Ireland are run by a crowd in Enniskillen in the United Kingdom who, from my experience, do not want to see any commercial traffic on the canals.

WTF I am talking about NEW CANALS! Have you ever seen the lock system that they have around Strasbourg on the Rhine? Maybe we need to open up and canalise our rivers. But why not build and cut new rivers? (I know cost) This is the 21st century surely this is the right time for a new Era of waterborne traffic.

Watching the huge ships on Rivers is relaxing and soothing. Does anyone relax by watching a motorway?

Also this is the kind of paritionist mentality that sinks gigantic projects in Ireland!

bk

swordofislam wrote: »

WTF I am talking about NEW CANALS! Have you ever seen the lock system that they have around Strasbourg on the Rhine? Maybe we need to open up and canalise our rivers. But why not build and cut new rivers? (I know cost) This is the 21st century surely this is the right time for a new Era of waterborne traffic.

LOL, you have to be kidding!!

WE don't have the money for really important and economically positive projects like Dart Underground and Metro North and you want us to build canals with no economic benefit!!!

I thought the Western Rail Corridor was mad, but now I really have heard it all.

AngryLips

Maybe they can build a C-ring around Dublin and call it the C50?

Curly Judge

Simona1986 wrote: »

Barges use diesel engines also unless you are suggesting a return to horses?

Naw! He was going to build the canal on a slight slope!:cool:

dubhthach

AngryLips wrote: »

Maybe they can build a C-ring around Dublin and call it the C50?

Canalise the Boyne from Drogheda to Royal Canal aqueduct with a "freeflow lock interchange" there, continue onwards with similiar at the Grand Canal down by Naas. :D *hides*

Shangoes

Aside from tourist traffic, they could be put to other uses. The canals in London are used for moving waste, heavy building materials and freight for example. I know of a waterfront construction project that was to contain a large transfer station in the basement for barges. While construction costs are probably similar to that of a road for a new build, we do have quite an extensive network in place already that could be much better used.

Judgement Day

Cloud cuckoo stuff I'm afraid, canals in Ireland are fit only for tourism/leisure purposes and need serious promotion and development for same. Anyone who has travelled on the UK's canals will know just how overcrowded they are but do you think Tourism Ireland etc. take this in? No, they would be more likely to try encouraging Chinese people to visit Ireland looking for their roots rather than concentrating on a huge market on our doorstep. :rolleyes:

robd

swordofislam wrote: »

WTF I am talking about NEW CANALS! Have you ever seen the lock system that they have around Strasbourg on the Rhine? Maybe we need to open up and canalise our rivers. But why not build and cut new rivers? (I know cost) This is the 21st century surely this is the right time for a new Era of waterborne traffic.

There's a somewhat bizarre article on this here: http://campfire.theoildrum.com/node/6103

The main obstacle are the cost and energy required to actually build a canal versus a railway or road and the slow speeds. You couldn't travel more than maybe 10 kph (slower when you take account of locks) on a canal, due to wake off boat, which would only suit a very small subset of goods types such as bulk aggregate say. So the investment is just not worth it. It would be economic suicide and any government who backed this would be the laughing stock of the world.

The reality is that roads allow us to transport all varieties of goods to and from where ever we wish. Neither canal nor road can offer this flexibility.

Pope John 11

Yes, I am very disappointed that alot more has not been done. Its a pity because it would make a great tourist attraction for the americans who want to golf in the west of Ireland etc.

Having read Ruth Delaney's and the work that has gone into restoring the canal (at one stage I think someone suggested to concrete in the Royal Canal and build a road to the west of Ireland over it), I think it is a great shame that there is not much more use made of it.

I often wonder too why the liffey is lifeless, and why there are not boat trips out to howth etc.

Judgement Day

Both the Royal & Grand Canals suffer from having their starting points in Inner City Dublin. I can only imagine the visitor 'experience' of trying to travel on the Royal Canal between Maynooth and Dublin Port - exciting or dangerous? Instead of developing the canals as a major source of employment to the deprived communities that they pass through, they are the plaything of those lucky enough to have their own craft and generally there appears to be little interaction with locals.

endacl

swordofislam wrote: »

Is there economic argument for a massive increase in Ireland's canal network.
Surely in the modern age canals are cheap to build and the cost of transport must be for nothing.

If we built a NETWORK of canals surely they would pay for themselves in jig time.

EDIT: Just looked up cost of Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM.

Looks like Canals are massively expensive and inefficient.

Big fan if the waterways. Came back to Dublin from the fleadh in tullamore a few years ago by canal boat. Lovely couple of days. Would have been quicker walking, but a lovely couple of days nonetheless.... Not sure how commercially viable canals would be for a modern world where goods could make the same journey in an hour by road. Redeveloping the rail network might be a better avenue for exploration?

robd

Pope John 11 wrote: »

I often wonder too why the liffey is lifeless, and why there are not boat trips out to howth etc.

Liffey is a long river. Which part are you talking about?

There are various kayak/canoe clubs along it. One at Palmerstown, training centre at Strawberry Beds, and one on Leixlip Lake.

There are rowing clubs at Islandbridge and on Blessington Lake.

Have raced down it numerous times over the last two years alone and have trained twice a week most of the warmer half of the year.

The tidal part of the Liffey is not in great condition. This is a problem that most tidal rivers suffer from though. It's a hard one to solve as putting a weir further down would restrict any kind of river traffic and might slow river down to the point that it ends up stinking the city out more than it does already.

AngryLips

The problem with the Liffey is that there needs a barrier to protect it from tidal forces.

However, that said, there are companies making use of the Liffey; there's the Liffey River Cruise, Sea Safari and Viking Splash. I'd hardly call that lifeless.

Jim Martin

The time taken for the transport of freight is not always important (bulk minerals) but for perishables it obviously is.

robd

Jim Martin wrote: »

The time taken for the transport of freight is not always important (bulk minerals) but for perishables it obviously is.

Yes. I did saw that 7 or so posts ago

robd wrote:

You couldn't travel more than maybe 10 kph (slower when you take account of locks) on a canal, due to wake off boat, which would only suit a very small subset of goods types such as bulk aggregate say.

The reality is that Ireland isn't really a heavy industry economy. It's such a small part of our output, plus we're likely to continue to move away from it, so we're not going to build infrastructure specifically for it.

This thread is a complete farce IMO.

dogmatix

hi5 wrote: »

The rivers are the same,all the lough gates on the Barrow have been restored at great cost and no one seems to use them.

Not sure I would agree with you on that - I did a bit of walking around Graiguenamanagh during the summer and the Barrow seemed very busy to me. On one day I spotted 3 boats queueing at the locks and there was a bloke in a jeep travelling up and down between the locks to open them for the traffic - he seemed to be busy. Not sure what the picture is like in the Winter months of course.

corktina

3 boats isnt busy...

robd

dogmatix wrote: »

Not sure I would agree with you on that - I did a bit of walking around Graiguenamanagh during the summer and the Barrow seemed very busy to me. On one day I spotted 3 boats queueing at the locks and there was a bloke in a jeep travelling up and down between the locks to open them for the traffic - he seemed to be busy. Not sure what the picture is like in the Winter months of course.

I raced down this stretch last month and it wasn't busy at all. Were some boats moored but didn't see any moving. Only movement were kayaks. So not busy at all. Really nice stretch of river though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUdKDo-8gnY

swordofislam

Is there anyway to reduce the costs of building canals? The French have an aggressive system that controls land price inflation when CPd but the costs for the Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM seem phenomenal.

How would that compare to either road or rail for example?

dubhthach

swordofislam wrote: »

Is there anyway to reduce the costs of building canals? The French have an aggressive system that controls land price inflation when CPd but the costs for the Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM seem phenomenal.

How would that compare to either road or rail for example?

Question is why would you build canals in Ireland. In Europe canal system link into major rivers that are use for shippings goods. For example the Rhine is used for shipping goods from Switzerland down to Rotterdam etc. There just isn't the business case in Ireland, we are too small of a country, the only major navigable river is the Shannon and it's hinterland is basically Rural.

spacetweek

corktina wrote: »

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

Why? Hardly anyone lives in Ireland.

I'm with the rest of you. Thoroughly bizarre thread - canals are from the 1700s and were made obsolete centuries ago. Why on earth would you want to build more of them now? And how could the OP possibly have thought they'd be cheap to build? It's obviously the opposite.

spacetweek

swordofislam wrote: »

the costs for the Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM seem phenomenal.
How would that compare to either road or rail for example?

That is €40/km which is 8 times the cost of a 4-lane motorway. 'Nuff said.

John_Rambo

corktina wrote: »

3 boats isnt busy...

There are one hundred berths in Poolbeg, loads of sailing and regattas there, both Stella Maris and St. Pats row on the lower river. There are a good few rowing clubs in Island bridge, Neptune, Trinity, Garda, Commercial to name a few and the river is dotted with canoe clubs from Strawberry beds upriver.

Judgement Day

John_Rambo wrote: »

There are one hundred berths in Poolbeg, loads of sailing and regattas there, both Stella Maris and St. Pats row on the lower river. There are a good few rowing clubs in Island bridge, Neptune, Trinity, Garda, Commercial to name a few and the river is dotted with canoe clubs from Strawberry beds upriver.

Canals!!

monument

I'm not suggesting anything for Ireland here, but the following is worth correcting...

spacetweek wrote: »

swordofislam wrote: »

the costs for the Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM seem phenomenal.
How would that compare to either road or rail for example?

That is €40/km which is 8 times the cost of a 4-lane motorway. 'Nuff said.

'Nuff said?

You're thinking of canals of days gone by. The planned Seine Nord Europe Canal fits ships which can hold up to 4,400 ton.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Or more so peanuts to coconuts.

How much would the same route cost as a motorway, with the same tonnage capacity? How much would each cost over their life time? How would each affect the cost of transport? What are the environmental impacts of both?

spacetweek wrote: »

corktina wrote: »

the few canals that we have that are usable always amaze me by their emptiness. Canal holidays in the UK are BIG business.

Why? Hardly anyone lives in Ireland.

I'm with the rest of you. Thoroughly bizarre thread - canals are from the 1700s and were made obsolete centuries ago. Why on earth would you want to build more of them now? And how could the OP possibly have thought they'd be cheap to build? It's obviously the opposite.

Canals clearly are not obsolete give the tonnage they carry worldwide. And not obsolete for leasure too...

You can debate how practical building large, modern canals in Ireland is or is not until the cows come home, but your massive generalisations about canals in general are pure fiction when you look at the facts.

corktina

theres no need to even think about new canals. Ireland is relatively flat and blessed with quite a network of canals, many of which have been made navigable in recent years and yet there is little in the way of a leisure business on them.
Could it be that there are too few locks with associated pubs and places of interest left on them? I know from a canal holiday in the UK how much of interest there is along them and how pleasurable it is to call to a quaint pub for Lunch and then another for the evening,

pretty well all UK pubs are effectively restaurants with surprisingly good food at very reasonable prices. Here we just rip off tourists and they don't come again.

Wild Bill

Allah be praised!

Canals
Is there economic argument for a massive increase in Ireland's canal network.
Surely in the modern age canals are cheap to build and the cost of transport must be for nothing.

If we built a NETWORK of canals surely they would pay for themselves in jig time.

EDIT: Just looked up cost of Seine Nord Europe Canal €4.2 Billion for 105 KM.

Looks like Canals are massively expensive and inefficient.

This is an open and shut case if ever there was one! And Sword of Islam has so succinctly summarized the long debate that followed in his opening remarks

Yet still, this remains the only active infrastructure thread over the Christmas period.

I love canals, tbh. there is a lot of good work going on restoring them and we actually did build a new one in the early 1990s when we joined the Shannon to the Erne system.

But as for canals in Ireland for transport infrastructure...:pac::D:pac::D:pac:

Wild Bill

Apart from Sword of Islam I notice Pope John 11 and of course Judgement Day are all prominent on this thread.

If there something about canals that attract the attention of the more spiritually inclined?

ps I also note that Cardinal Richelieu is involved in the Dublin City Drainage debate....which is a form on canal work.
(OK, I'll stop now)

BowWow

we actually did build a new one in the early 1990s when we joined the Shannon to the Erne system.

Shannon-Erne is a new navigation along the line of the original canal which was never really completed in the first place - although boats had traveled the line.

Wild Bill

OK - so you think you know canals:



Question:
(1)What canal is this?
(2)What village was the pic taken in?
(3)What year was it taken?

Prize: a totally free copy of the pic :

L1011

Wild Bill wrote: »

I love canals, tbh. there is a lot of good work going on restoring them and we actually did build a new one in the early 1990s when we joined the Shannon to the Erne system.

And another - the Boyle Canal to restore navigation in to Boyle that would otherwise have been stopped by the Boyle Bypass.