Football: Rank Your Province

keane2097

Was having a bit of fun with one of the lads yesterday ranking teams in the different provincial championships.

We agreed that while it's pretty trivial to rank Munster and probably easy enough to do Connacht as well, but came up with pretty wild differences for the rest.

For the record, we had:

Munster
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Limerick
4. Tipperary
5. Waterford
6. Clare

With Tipp slightly ahead of Waterford who, despite getting to the last 16 this year we felt were a bit overrepresented by that fact as London were the only team they beat.

Connacht
1. Mayo
2. Roscommon
3. Galway
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim

Mayo solidifying their position ahead of Roscommon by following up their victory over them with a further victory over Cork and a reasonable-ish showing against Kerry. Roscommon on the other hand were destroyed by a Tyrone team that later proved to be fairly sub-par themselves.

There's still a bit of an issue with the two/three pick here, because in spite of a very bad season last season, Galway were playing three divisions above Roscommon last year, although that's been mitigated to a large extent by the fact that there'll only be a single division separating them next season, which seems to justify our assertion somewhat.

Anyone want to take a stab at Leinster and Ulster?

Note that we weren't really basing any of this off who had a good season or a bad season last season, just purely on a "who would beat who with full squads and full motivation on a given day", so the argument that Waterford getting to the last 16 should have them ranked better than Tipp is redundant assuming you think Tipp are a better team in a vacuum.

Speak Now

Let's also assume this is football not hurling

keane2097

Sorry yeah

Lemlin

Ulster (purely based on this season):

1. Donegal.
2. Tyrone.
3. Derry
4. Armagh
5. Down
6. Monaghan
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh

D'Agger

Basing this on the type of football played over results gotten over the past few years as opposed to just last year

Ulster:

Tyrone
Derry
Armagh
Monaghan
Donegal
Antrim
Down
Fermanagh
Cavan

Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Meath
Wexford
Laois
Westmeath
Longford
Louth
Carlow
Offaly
Wicklow

keane2097

Lemlin wrote: »

Ulster (purely based on this season):

1. Donegal.
2. Tyrone.
3. Derry
4. Armagh
5. Down
6. Monaghan
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh

Agree with the bottom four I think.

Top five I think Donegal beat Tyrone, Armagh and Down on a given day all things equal, but I'm not so sure they beat a full strength Derry.

I definitely think Derry would be at least second.

Down and Armagh is pretty close I think.

If I was being as contrarian compared to yours as possible I might have had:

1. Derry
2. Donegal
3. Tyrone
4. Down
5. Armagh
6. Monaghan
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh

keane2097

PaulieC wrote: »

Basing this on the type of football played over results gotten over the past few years as opposed to just last year

Ulster:

Tyrone
Derry
Armagh
Monaghan
Donegal
Antrim
Down
Fermanagh
Cavan

Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Meath
Wexford
Laois
Westmeath
Longford
Louth
Carlow
Offaly
Wicklow

Way to make up your own question and answer that instead!

D'Agger

keane2097 wrote: »

Way to make up your own question and answer that instead!

Your OP isn't massively specific on it being based solely on last season but I'm not one to be pedantic, you know that....I'll go again

Based on last Season:

Ulser:
Tyrone
Donegal
Derry
Armagh
Monaghan
Down
Antrim
Cavan
Fermanagh


Leinster would stay the same for me tbh

D'Agger

keane2097 wrote: »

Down and Armagh is pretty close I think.

I really don't think so - Down last year looked a fairly poor outfit, a pale shadow of the team that graced the all Ireland final in 2010 - Armagh were streets ahead of them when they played in the Championship this year

overshoot

last Season & based on:

Ulster:
Donegal (won ulster and went furthest in AI, no brainer for me)
Tyrone (tighter game v donegal than derry & AI quarter)
Derry (ulster final)
Armagh (bet down)
Down (at least made it to rd 4 of the qualifiers, easy run so still behind armagh)
Antrim (rd 3 in qualifiers, bet westmeath in rd1 which puts em ahead of...)
Monaghan (did absoulutely nothing, 2 defeats, tyrone, offaly)
Cavan (u21s wernt ready)
Fermanagh (.....london)

if its over a few years, tyrone by a mile, armagh/down, donegal, derry/monaghan, antrim, fermanagh/cavan

D'Agger

Am I being a bit too harsh on Donegal by putting them second to Tyrone for last year?

I suppose it is a no brainer when you look at them winning Ulster and getting the the AI semi final

However, I just think that Donegal getting that far was down to them playing to a system based on athleticism and mental strength - I feel Tyrone played more open football and better football than them.

keane2097

PaulieC wrote: »

Am I being a bit too harsh on Donegal by putting them second to Tyrone for last year?

I suppose it is a no brainer when you look at them winning Ulster and getting the the AI semi final

However, I just think that Donegal getting that far was down to them playing to a system based on athleticism and mental strength - I feel Tyrone played more open football and better football than them.

The question is who wins if they play today.

I think Donegal do.

It's not a merit system where we're rewarding teams for their achievements, it's an absolute ranking of simply which team is the better team.

D'Agger

keane2097 wrote: »

The question is who wins if they play today.

I think Donegal do.

It's not a merit system where we're rewarding teams for their achievements, it's an absolute ranking of simply which team is the better team.

It's a game I'd like to see - tbh I couldn't call it but I'd be shouting for Tyrone :pac:

overshoot

but they did play this year in the ulster semi... and donegal won by 3 points... i think tyrone went backwards after it, i couldnt have seen dublin doing that to them earlier in the year. lets face it, donegal only lost to dublin by 2 also.
also played in the league where donegal won in omagh 1-10 to 6. tyrone imo just ran out of fuel this year. might be nicer to watch but donegal got the results against them (and everyone they played bar the AI champs when it mattered) so are ahead

keane2097

overshoot wrote: »

but they did play this year in the ulster semi... and donegal won by 3 points... i think tyrone went backwards after it, i couldnt have seen dublin doing that to them earlier in the year. lets face it, donegal only lost to dublin by 2 also.
also played in the league where donegal won in omagh 1-10 to 6. tyrone imo just ran out of fuel this year. might be nicer to watch but donegal got the results against them (and everyone they played bar the AI champs when it mattered) so are ahead

Yeah that's exactly my thinking as well.

bruschi

PaulieC wrote: »

Basing this on the type of football played over results gotten over the past few years as opposed to just last year

Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Meath
Wexford
Laois
Westmeath
Longford
Louth
Carlow
Offaly
Wicklow

not sure how Meath can be ranked ahead of Wexford, considering we have beaten them the last 5 times we played them.

keane2097

Louth would probably need to be higher than that as well IMO.

bruschi

keane2097 wrote: »

Louth would probably need to be higher than that as well IMO.

only slightly though. take out one good year and they have nothing to show for in a long time.

actually, seeing those rankings again there, Carlow should be last, by a long way. one win in 5 years. Wicklow are better than them. If I was ranking Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Wexford
Meath
Laois
Westmeath
Louth
Longford
Wicklow
Offaly
Carlow

and to be honest, I dont rate Kildare particularly highly, but they have beaten both Wexford and Meath in their last outings against them so they should be second.

keane2097

I could easily see them beating the three teams above them. I wouldn't think there'd be more than a point or two between them and Laois for example.

That's based on limited enough knowledge admittedly!

bruschi

keane2097 wrote: »

I could easily see them beating the three teams above them. I wouldn't think there'd be more than a point or two between them and Laois for example.

That's based on limited enough knowledge admittedly!

ah sure all these things are just opinions anyway and have no real merit. some people can get really hung up on them, and others be delighted to be ranked second or third or whatever, and it doesnt matter a jot. Dublin have Sam, and thats the only ranking that matters.

keane2097

bruschi wrote: »

only slightly though. take out one good year and they have nothing to show for in a long time.

actually, seeing those rankings again there, Carlow should be last, by a long way. one win in 5 years. Wicklow are better than them. If I was ranking Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Wexford
Meath
Laois
Westmeath
Louth
Longford
Wicklow
Offaly
Carlow

and to be honest, I dont rate Kildare particularly highly, but they have beaten both Wexford and Meath in their last outings against them so they should be second.

That's pretty close to what I would think. Not a huge amount between 2, 3 and 4. Little gap to 5, not much between 5, 6, 7 and 8.

Couldn't really comment on the last three tbh.

keane2097

bruschi wrote: »

ah sure all these things are just opinions anyway and have no real merit. some people can get really hung up on them, and others be delighted to be ranked second or third or whatever, and it doesnt matter a jot. Dublin have Sam, and thats the only ranking that matters.

It's pretty much just a thought experiment yeah, it's sort of interesting though.

Nice to get some perspective of the various under-reported counties as well, because I'd know next to nothing about teams like Offaly and Carlow.

problemchimp

bruschi wrote: »

only slightly though. take out one good year and they have nothing to show for in a long time.

actually, seeing those rankings again there, Carlow should be last, by a long way. one win in 5 years. Wicklow are better than them. If I was ranking Leinster:

Dublin
Kildare
Wexford
Meath
Laois
Westmeath
Louth
Longford
Wicklow
Offaly
Carlow

and to be honest, I dont rate Kildare particularly highly, but they have beaten both Wexford and Meath in their last outings against them so they should be second.

That's about right IMO.

keane2097

Where would people have New York and London in Connacht? I left them out initially...

Hammer Archer

bruschi wrote: »

not sure how Meath can be ranked ahead of Wexford, considering we have beaten them the last 5 times we played them.

We beat you last time we played in 2009
However, going on last year I'd agree Wexford would be ranked ahead of us. But only just.

bruschi

Hammer Archer wrote: »

We beat you last time we played in 2009
However, going on last year I'd agree Wexford would be ranked ahead of us. But only just.

ah yeah, sorry. forgot about that league game.

well the 5 times before that so!

Fireball07

Munster
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Limerick
4. Tipperary
5. Waterford
6. Clare

Leinster
1. Dublin
2. Kildare
3. Wexford
4. Meath
5. Laois
6. Longford
7. Westmeath
8. Louth
9. Carlow
10. Wicklow
11. Offaly

Connacht
1. Mayo
2. Galway
3. Roscommon
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim
6. London
7. New York

Ulster
1. Tyrone
2. Donegal
3. Derry
4. Armagh
5. Down
6. Monaghan
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

It's pretty much just a thought experiment yeah, it's sort of interesting though.

Nice to get some perspective of the various under-reported counties as well, because I'd know next to nothing about teams like Offaly and Carlow.

Leinster

Dublin - Can't really have them anywhere else
Kildare - Have an All Ireland in them if they can get over their "we're the unluckiest team in Ireland" thing.
Wexford - Lol at anyone having Meath ahead of them. Excellent in the Leinster final last year, unlucky goal cost them the win.
Meath - A team that was built on being horribly consistent and never ever letting a team relax but they're in a shambles now thanks to a combination of the manager and Graham Geraghty.
Laois- Always good team technically but just have the inner toughness of a walnut whip.
Longford- Should be better than they are. Good club set up and a really good basic standard in their team. I remember Dublin playing them in our last away Championship game and they would have won barring a horrible bounce of the ball. Lack of belief -v- bigger teams is killing them.
Louth - Should be at the bottom since a Louth "fan" is suing Christy Cooney for "allowing" Meath to win last year's Leinster title. Making a Leinster final last year knocks them above Westmeath but only just.
Westmeath - Since their heady days of Leinster Championship winners they've offered nothing. Dessie Dolan aside they fail to produce really quality footballers at this level.
Offaly - Gave signs of getting their act together again a few years ago but seemed to lose all hope after losing to Dublin in the Leinster final and haven't made one since.
Wicklow - Some nice runs in the qualifiers but they're a sideshow in the early stages of the Championship and won't ever do better than Round 3 qualifiers.
Carlow - Worst team in Leinster.

Syferus

keane2097 wrote: »

Was having a bit of fun with one of the lads yesterday ranking teams in the different provincial championships.

We agreed that while it's pretty trivial to rank Munster and probably easy enough to do Connacht as well, but came up with pretty wild differences for the rest.

For the record, we had:

Munster
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Limerick
4. Tipperary
5. Waterford
6. Clare

With Tipp slightly ahead of Waterford who, despite getting to the last 16 this year we felt were a bit overrepresented by that fact as London were the only team they beat.

Connacht
1. Mayo
2. Roscommon
3. Galway
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim

Mayo solidifying their position ahead of Roscommon by following up their victory over them with a further victory over Cork and a reasonable-ish showing against Kerry. Roscommon on the other hand were destroyed by a Tyrone team that later proved to be fairly sub-par themselves.

There's still a bit of an issue with the two/three pick here, because in spite of a very bad season last season, Galway were playing three divisions above Roscommon last year, although that's been mitigated to a large extent by the fact that there'll only be a single division separating them next season, which seems to justify our assertion somewhat.

Anyone want to take a stab at Leinster and Ulster?

Note that we weren't really basing any of this off who had a good season or a bad season last season, just purely on a "who would beat who with full squads and full motivation on a given day", so the argument that Waterford getting to the last 16 should have them ranked better than Tipp is redundant assuming you think Tipp are a better team in a vacuum.

Again, I don't know how many times I has to be said by people at Croke Park on the day and having the advantage of seeing the full match, Roscommon played some of the best football of the entire year for the first half of that game with Tyrone (Spilliane, perhaps the greatest of all Roscommon tramplers over the years, said that first half was the best half of football of the entire year) and up until two late -and soft - goals the game was very much on the line. Tyrone ran out of steam, an old team that played alot of games in quick succession. Dublin wouldn't beat them by half as much if they played another ten times.

Ask a Tyrone supporter if they 'destroyed' Roscommon before you tow that line again.

keane2097

Syferus wrote: »

Again, I don't know how many times I has to be said by people at Croke Park on the day and having the advantage of seeing the full match, Roscommon played some of the best football of the entire year for the first half of that game with Tyrone (Spilliane, perhaps the greatest of all Roscommon tramplers over the years, said that first half was the best half of football of the entire year) and up until two late -and soft - goals the game was very much on the line. Tyrone ran out of steam, an old team that played alot of games in quick succession. Dublin wouldn't beat them by half as much if they played another ten times.

Ask a Tyrone supporter if they 'destroyed' Roscommon before you tow that line again.

This is such a flawed perspective.

Roscommon were beaten by 11 points over 70 minutes. That's a massive, massive beating to be on the end of.

Assuming, as you say, they played some of the best football of the entire year it's clearly even worse. Football is a game played in two directions, one can assume this "best football of the year" amounts to some well crafted attacks that left ye within a point at half-time. What then does that say about the quality of a midfield and defense that go ahead and collapse to an abject ten point second half defeat?

A soft goal can happen to anyone, but it's down to defending poorly, not some unfortunate external factor, two soft goals? That's just not having a high quality, well organised defense, or the character to see a game out when put under pressure.

These are not isolated incidents either, with Roscommon failing to deliver in the second half of the Connacht final on a horrible day when all they needed to do was keep the score down.

Again, a loss twice as heavy as an absolutely panned out Derry took against Kildare, while supposedly having spent half the game playing the best football of the championship is an undeniable hammering, and a clear reflection on the truism that a couple of good forwards and some nice moves doesn't make a football team.

So yeah, pretty close between Galway and Roscommon imo, which neither within an ass's roar of the top level at this stage.

keane2097

Probably a bit emotive with the language in the post above due to being irritated, but you take my point - it's a thread for assessing the absolute effectiveness of a side, not congratulating teams for playing "the right way" or for bashing Donegal et al because they're ugly to watch.

blowitupref

keane2097 wrote: »

This is such a flawed perspective.

Roscommon were beaten by 11 points over 70 minutes. That's a massive, massive beating to be on the end of.

Assuming, as you say, they played some of the best football of the entire year it's clearly even worse. Football is a game played in two directions, one can assume this "best football of the year" amounts to some well crafted attacks that left ye within a point at half-time. What then does that say about the quality of a midfield and defense that go ahead and collapse to an abject ten point second half defeat?

A soft goal can happen to anyone, but it's down to defending poorly, not some unfortunate external factor, two soft goals? That's just not having a high quality, well organised defense, or the character to see a game out when put under pressure.

These are not isolated incidents either, with Roscommon failing to deliver in the second half of the Connacht final on a horrible day when all they needed to do was keep the score down.

Again, a loss twice as heavy as an absolutely panned out Derry took against Kildare, while supposedly having spent half the game playing the best football of the championship is an undeniable hammering, and a clear reflection on the truism that a couple of good forwards and some nice moves doesn't make a football team.

So yeah, pretty close between Galway and Roscommon imo, which neither within an ass's roar of the top level at this stage.

What Mickey Harte said after the Tyrone v Roscommon game.

Our final winning margin was flattering.

“No way did we deserve that scoreline. Roscommon were in it for three-quarters of the game and they were far superior in the first-half. We had a lot to think about at halftime. We had better shape to our game all over the field in the second-half but then they came back at us some more. Roscommon will feel hard done by with the final score,”


Reading that it doesn't sound like Roscommon where destroyed?

keane2097

blowitupref wrote: »

What Mickey Harte said after the Tyrone v Roscommon

Our final winning margin was flattering.

“No way did we deserve that scoreline. Roscommon were in it for three-quarters of the game and they were far superior in the first-half. We had a lot to think about at halftime. We had better shape to our game all over the field in the second-half but then they came back at us some more. Roscommon will feel hard done by with the final score,”


Reading that it doesn't sound like Roscommon where destroyed?

Platitudes from a man eternally magnanimous in victory have unsurprisingly failed to shake me to my foundations on this matter.

blowitupref

Good for you however i'll take Mickey Harte's honest post match comments over your view judged on just the final scoreline.

keane2097

What are the chances you'd think he was being honest if you didn't agree with him?

blowitupref

blowitupref wrote: »

Good for you however i'll take Mickey Harte's honest post match comments over your view judged on just the final scoreline.

This is pretty laughable. If a man makes a comment supporting your position it is honest despite being given in what is generally accepted to be one of the most disingenuous fora known to man: the post match interview.

A lot of Kerry players gave interviews where they said Dublin deserved it this year and it was a great win for them. You think they weren't really fuming inside and thinking they were robbed by a soft free? Oh, of course they really thought Dublin edged it! :rolleyes: I keep forgetting that honest opinions are always expressed in the media by sportspeople. Sorry.

blowitupref

Deleted User wrote: »

This is pretty laughable. If a man makes a comment supporting your position it is honest despite being given in what is generally accepted to be one of the most disingenuous fora known to man: the post match interview.

A lot of Kerry players gave interviews where they said Dublin deserved it this year and it was a great win for them. You think they weren't really fuming inside and thinking they were robbed by a soft free? Oh, of course they really thought Dublin edged it! :rolleyes: I keep forgetting that honest opinions are always expressed in the media by sportspeople. Sorry.

What exactly is my position? i posted a post match comment from Mickey Harte whom unlike others i believe to be honest after games.

Roscommon v Tyrone wasn't live, i could have jumped the gun like Mr Keane did above but TBH having not seen it i can't give opinion on the game itself.

You are basing your entire opinion on how good Roscommon are on the back of a post match comment having not even seen the game? Really?

blowitupref

Not basing any opinion on the game just pointing out you can't jugde a game on just the full time scoreline.

It's not like flattering scorelines don't happen.

rossie1977

Deleted User wrote: »

You are basing your entire opinion on how good Roscommon are on the back of a post match comment having not even seen the game? Really?

i was at the game and roscommon were much the better team in the first half and were only losing by 2-3 points with 8 minutes to go, then fergal decided to go for it leaving only 3 defenders and bringing on 3 forwards and tyrone scored 2 goals in the last 3 minutes, it was the most flattering scoreline of the year without question, reminded me of this match in 2010 http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/0627/dublin_meath.html

D'Agger

blowitupref wrote: »

Not basing any opinion on the game just pointing out you can't jugde a game on just the full time scoreline.

It's not like flattering scorelines don't happen.

True scorelines can sometimes be flattering but you're saying don't always base your opinion on the final score, yet you're main argument for Roscommon are the words of the winning manager.

K-9

PaulieC wrote: »

True scorelines can sometimes be flattering but you're saying don't always base your opinion on the final score, yet you're main argument for Roscommon are the words of the winning manager.

In fairness Roscommon gave Tyrone a right go and Cavanagh and a bit of experience pulled them through. Roscommon would be a head of Galway by a fair bit really. Only thing really in their favour is they are higher in the League but we all know the Championship matters.

I'd go:

Munster
1. Kerry
2. Cork
3. Limerick
4. Tipperary
5. Waterford
6. Clare

Connacht
1. Mayo
2. Roscommon
3. Galway
4. Sligo
5. Leitrim

Ulster
1. Tyrone
2. Donegal
3. Derry
4. Armagh
5. Down
6. Monaghan
7. Antrim
8. Cavan
9. Fermanagh

The only argument for me is Tyrone and Donegal. Derry, Armagh and Monaghan haven't done much in the last couple of years and are a bit behind the first 2.

Leinster
1. Dublin
2. Kildare
3. Meath
4. Wexford
5. Laois
6. Louth
7. Westmeath
8. Longford
9. Carlow
10. Wicklow
11. Offaly

D'Agger

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness Roscommon gave Tyrone a right go and Cavanagh and a bit of experience pulled them through. Roscommon would be a head of Galway by a fair bit really. Only thing really in their favour is they are higher in the League but we all know the Championship matters.

That wasn't the point I was arguing tbf K9 - it was the fact that a guy is using an oppositions manager saying it was a close game as valid explanation for a loss

It'd be like a Limerick fan saying Kerry only barely beat Limerick because Jack O'Connor said it was a close game - it's a weak argument to make.

If you're debating why a team lost to me, point out what caused them to lose a game, saying it was close because Mikey Harte said so isn't cutting it imo

K-9

PaulieC wrote: »

That wasn't the point I was arguing tbf K9 - it was the fact that a guy is using an oppositions manager saying it was a close game as valid explanation for a loss

It'd be like a Limerick fan saying Kerry only barely beat Limerick because Jack O'Connor said it was a close game - it's a weak argument to make.

If you're debating why a team lost to me, point out what caused them to lose a game, saying it was close because Mikey Harte said so isn't cutting it imo

I suppose.

Looking at it, it kind of shows how far Ulster has gone back. 5/6 years ago about 5 of the top 10 counties would have been from Ulster, I'd say 2 now.

keane2097

Just to bump this briefly, London are probably better than Leitrim, no?

Hammer Archer

keane2097 wrote: »

Just to bump this briefly, London are probably better than Leitrim, no?

Leitrim beat Sligo this year though as well as finishing above London in the League (despite giving them a walkover).
London caught Mayo on the hop, beat a Fermanagh team in turmoil and were beaten out the gate at home by Waterford. I'd say Leitrim are the better side.

Brendan97

Ulster: Donegal
Leinster: Dublin
Munster: Kerry
Connaght: Mayo

Surely you can't argue with this!
IMO all these are undisputed best in their provinces

keane2097

Just looking at this again and was thinking about Offaly specifically.

With Ciaran McManus retiring and Niall McNamee making himself unavailable for selection in 2012, along with the fact that there doesn't exactly seem to be a groundswell of support for Gerry Cooney's appointment surely Offaly must be right at the bottom of the Leinster list?

I could see Carlow making a bit of progress this year with some really good young players who by now have a bit of experience as well, the likes of Brendan Murphy, Darragh Foley and Shane Redmond in particular seem to have bundles of potential.

thewildcat

Dublin would be number one with kildare after them, the likes of louth,meath,wexford,laois,
offaly,carlow, westmeath, wicklow, in the next group

Le King

1. Dublin
2. Kildare
3. Wexford
4. Meath
5. Laois
6. Westmeath
7. Longford
8. Louth
9. Carlow
10. Wicklow
11. Offaly

I wouldn't have a whole lot between Dublin and Kildare. Wexford just only slightly behind that duo. Then I'd have Meath again just behind Wexford.

If you are talking about predictions for next year no one outside of Kildare or Dublin will win Leinster this year.

And Tipp for Sam in 2014!

mossyc123

Dublin - 6 of last 7 Leinsters, All-Ireland Champs.

Kildare - Have made the A-I Quarters for last 4 seasons, consistently excellent in qualifiers but only really performed in Leinster C'ship in '09

Meath - Capable of beating nearly any team in Qualifiers but, like Kildare, only 1 decent Leinster C'ship behind them in last few years (2010)

Wexford - Wiped the floor with a few challengers in Leinster this year, left the Final behind them, weak exit in Qualifiers.

Laois - Here on potential only. Haven't performed at all in last few years. Div 1 will bring them on for next year I reckon.

Louth - Had a great 2010 and continued on to a good League performance in 2011 but fell apart in the Championship.

Westmeath - Back to Division 2 for 2012. Still have some decent footballers.

Longford - Stayed in Div 3 and got another Qualifier win.

Wicklow - Capable of decent qualifier performances, still haven't got out of in Div 4 though.

Carlow - Good win over Louth, was their 1st in 5/6 years in Leinster, Wexford destroyed them the next day out probably shows their true level IMO.

Offaly - McManus retired and McNamee apparently unavailable for 2012...the decline could continue.