Will this image change things?

DeVore

Sorry to start a new thread but I didnt want to continue to derail (or possibly RErail) the other thread.

This image is going global at the moment.


The Washington post is saying it will become the iconic picture of the movement... much like children running away from agent orange during the Vietnam war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/arts-post/post/occupys-84-year-old-pepper-spray-victim-is-this-the-most-iconic-image-of-the-movement/2011/11/16/gIQAzateRN_blog.html

This is really worrying because when you take away non-violent protest, you only leave no protest or violent protest and people will not stay silent forever.
This has horrible overtones of the civil marches in Belfast in the early 70's and there was a crackdown (internment without trial) and we spent 30 years in a slow-burn (un)civil war.

If the US wanted to hand its domestic terrorists a recruiting drive, the treatment of peaceful protestors during this movement is xmas come early.
Lets not forget that exempting 9/11 the largest terrorist attack before then, or since, was Oklahoma.

Just a rather depressing thought...

DeV.

Kepti

Any idea if the offending officer was caught on camera? I hope so.

MagicMarker

Please tell me that's milk?

edit: Read the link... phew! Still though, not cool.

Kepti

MagicMarker wrote: »

Please tell me that's milk?

Pepper spray, tears and drool.

si_guru

Of course that pic is in no way anti-government propaganda......

texidub

si_guru wrote: »

Of course that pic is in no way anti-government propaganda......

"What did the Kerryman say when he saw a picture of an innocent old lady who got caught up in civil unrest?" :pac:

See? We can all make stupid interpretations!

Kepti

si_guru wrote: »

Of course that pic is in no way anti-government propaganda......

It will be used as propaganda, but it's not itself propaganda, unless you are claiming that it was staged.

I'd see it more directly anti-police than anti-government, although the government do have some influence over the police's actions.

20Cent

Interview with her here, http://youtu.be/ENfWJzXVD0Q
Think the photo is very symbolic, the corporate owned media have been desperately trying to frame the story as being a bunch of hippies protesting where the reality is that it is people from all walks of life.

texidub

My understanding is that she was not part of the protests so that doesn't apply. She was on her way to a transportation meeting apparently.

From the OP's link:

Rainey, a community activist since the ’60s, decided to walk by the protest on her way to a transportation meeting in the Northgate neighborhood of Seattle.

si_guru

..and that guy just happened to have safety goggles in his bag. There is too much we don't know.

Why would you travel to an area full of protesters and Police? I wouldn't.

Kepti

si_guru wrote: »

..and that guy just happened to have safety goggles in his bag. There is too much we don't know.

This is just clueless speculation. You have nothing to add.

The man helping her didn't 'just happen' to have safety goggles. He brought them because he's in a situation where people are being pepper sprayed.

Why would you travel to an area full of protesters and Police? I wouldn't.

This is no way justifies what was done to her. You wouldn't ever join a protest? She has a history of attending some pretty important ones, for women's and civil rights.

karma_

What you see there may actually be milk, it's common to use milk or baking soda to neutralise some of the effects.

What kind of cop would pepper spray an elderly woman like this?

Kepti

karma_ wrote: »

What you see there may actually be milk, it's common to use milk or baking soda to neutralise some of the effects.

What kind of cop would pepper spray an elderly woman like this?

That explains the spray container in the hand of the man with the goggles.

Rabidlamb

One might almost suspect it was set up for maximum impact value so that it might go viral & travel the globe.:rolleyes:
Hearts & minds eh, they are all at it . . . .

Kepti

Rabidlamb wrote: »

One might almost suspect it was set up for maximum impact value so that it might go viral & travel the globe.:rolleyes:
Hearts & minds eh, they are all at it . . . .

Oh no, now the world will know that police are wantonly pepper spraying elderly people who are protesting peacefully.

si_guru

texidub wrote: »

"What did the Kerryman say when he saw a picture of an innocent old lady who got caught up in civil unrest?" :pac:

See? We can all make stupid interpretations!

By your own admission you might be stupid... but I am not a Kerry man.

si_guru

Kepti wrote: »

This is no way justifies what was done to her. You wouldn't ever join a protest? She has a history of attending some pretty important ones, for women's and civil rights.

You are right it doesn't justify random pepper spraying.

I would protest under the right circumstances. But given that every protest worldwide recently has become violent (due to the presence of people with differing agendas) I would not go any protest - or "walk by" one.

texidub

Just reflecting your stupidity back at you: i.e. take a little information, twist and inflate it with prejudice and use the resulting cocktail to reinforce that prejudice. It's circular thinking.

So, since you believe it to be anti-government propaganda, please explain how was the photo staged and the evidence you have to prove this. You could blow the lid on this vile woman and her lies... Go on enlighten us all.

talkinyite

Americans with their chemical weapons

texidub

si_guru wrote: »

You are right it doesn't justify random pepper spraying.

I would protest under the right circumstances. But given that every protest worldwide recently has become violent (due to the presence of people with differing agendas) I would not go any protest - or "walk by" one.

What are the right circumstances?

What evidence do you have that "every protest worldwide recently has become violent"? What an extraordinary claim.

EDIT: Here's a peaceful protest from 24 hours ago.. in your own country! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1117/1224307705660.html

Gardaí said the protest, organised by the Union of Students in Ireland, had passed off peacefully and resulted in no arrests.

old_aussie

No, I don't think that image will change anything.

Why would it?

karma_

old_aussie wrote: »

No, I don't think that image will change anything.

Why would it?

Because, an image can capture something powerful and become iconic. We all remember the naked little Vietnamese girl running down the road, we all remember Edward Daly with his handkerchief on Bloody Sunday, or the man in Tiananmen square in front of a tank, the list goes on and on.

You ask, Why would it?

Why would it not?

texidub

old_aussie wrote: »

No, I don't think that image will change anything.

Why would it?

Because some people naturally feel empathy when they see evidence of other people suffering. They naturally side with the victim and against the perpetrator.

Of course some people will feel nothing.

And others will turn reality morality on its head and side with the perpetrator.

Personally, I was moved by it. And anyone that caused an old lady any grief like that --accidentally OR deliberately (and in this case, I think she may have just got caught up in it)-- in my presence would get a piece of my mind (at the very least).

Overheal

si_guru wrote: »

..and that guy just happened to have safety goggles in his bag.

With all due respect if you're showing up at the Protests you are well aware that police have deployed pepper spray and tear gas at different times and places around these movements. A diving mask doesn't really seem like a bad piece of gear to carry along with you.

I'm more worried about one woman I saw tying her kids up to a tree. Granted it appeared to be comfortable nylon rope, but the gas masks she gave them to wear? I'd rather those children were in bed somewhere.

amacachi

Ah old people and kids, who needs arguments or logic when you've got them?

A pregnant woman was also hit with the pepper spray. From The Colbert Report it seems a big group went ahead and blocked an intersection. The footage doesn't show anything from the cops that I see as a problem. They didn't sneak behind people and reach around to spray their faces, there looked to be plenty of warning.

LostinKildare

Another interesting image -- retired Philadelphia Police Captain Ray Lewis, arrested at the Stock Exchange today.




Here he talks to fellow OWS protesters the day after the Zuccotti Park clearout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2j4LLUu0BU

jackiebaron

si_guru wrote: »

..and that guy just happened to have safety goggles in his bag. There is too much we don't know.

Why would you travel to an area full of protesters and Police? I wouldn't.

So you're not really free then are you? It's one thing to not want to walk through a deprived neighbourhood for fear of being robbed, or worse. When you can't walk through an area that's full of "guardians of the peace" then that speaks volumes.

jackiebaron

Funny isn't it? This guy, who knows the score, comes out and spells out the rules regarding using violence. Yet so many clueless, loudmouthed dildos on these fora come out and state that if you are protesting then you only have yourself to blame for being pepper sprayed or blasted into a coma from a rubber bullet or gas canister.

Manic Moran

Another interesting image -- retired Philadelphia Police Chief Ray Lewis, arrested at the Stock Exchange today.

At least the NYPD aren't playing favourites. Besides, Philly and NYC don't like each other much. (By the way, he's a retired Captain, not Chief)

I'm also curious to know what Philly PD policy has to say about the wearing of their uniform at protests. It would be illegal, for example, if it was a retired soldier. (Regs authorise the wear of military uniforms by retirees, but only under certain conditions)

NTM

DeVore

That guy is the sanest person I've heard throughout the entire debacle.


DeV.

DeVore

ps: if they applied the bank regulations as stringently as the park regulations, we wouldnt have this mess..... ironic eh?

DeV.

Manic Moran

DeVore wrote: »

ps: if they applied the bank regulations as stringently as the park regulations, we wouldnt have this mess..... ironic eh?

DeV.

Is that what they are protesting about? If so, isn't it a bit redundant? I think all parties have acknowledged a better application of oversight is required in future.

NTM

DeVore

But the politicos don't seem to want to implement them. That police chief was right, as long as money is playing, the needs of the people will always be at odds with the needs of the mega corps.

More fundamentally the whole fiat currency thing is broken. It's the equivalent of a bank stepping into a hall of mirrors, holding up one dollar and proclaiming it owns ten dollars.

That's not even an analogy, change hall of mirrors to Central Bank and that's precisely what they do with fractional lending.

Central banks are the only real source of capital in the system and all their loans need to be repayed with interest. Where will this interest coming from??
there is only one place it can come from.... And it comes with more interest.

DeV.

amacachi

DeVore wrote: »

More fundamentally the whole fiat currency thing is broken. It's the equivalent of a bank stepping into a hall of mirrors, holding up one dollar and proclaiming it owns ten dollars.

Careful, you're veering off to the right there!

DeVore

Eh??

I'm utterly confused as to what's right and left and I have a suspicion that it's considerably more complex than can be distilled down to a position on a one dimensional line.

I'll stick with stuff-that-makes-sense-to-me and you can reassign my box at will

DeV.

Hayte

Right and left have become truly meaningless terms in an age of politics where obstructionism is king, the executive does whatever it wants and legislature can be bought. It doesn't matter whether or not a person says they have right or left political beliefs, if they are elected to public office they are still beholden to the same institutions, the same lobbying groups, the same revolving door of campaign donors and the same network of people you have to be friends with or else you'll fall.

The sooner people drop this old way of thinking the better. For a start, there is no left wing in the US. Obama is miles to the right of Nixon if we take right to mean social conservatism, individualism and strong emphasis on private property rights. Hell, hes more right than Bush Jnr was (and thats really saying something).

The term left and right wing originally referred to the National Assembly during the French Revolution. Everyone to the right of the speaker were monarchists and everyone to the left were anti monarchists. Over time I think this has come to generally mean:

right politics = preserving the current order, advancing social policy via pragmatic means
left politics = upsetting the current order, advancing social policy via theoretical means

Since the French revolution the terms left/right have changed, so its no longer Republicans vs Monarchists and the center of this axis has been shifting for centuries. Right now and there is no political will or incentive to change any of the institutions that allow the political classes to hold on to power in deference of social justice. Everyone in politics (with very few exceptions) now looks the same. They distinguish each other through scandal or increasingly insane rhetoric just to be noticed. Bachmann has come out with some of the most incredible quips lately, including an absolute peach where she proposed billing Iraq for the war the US started, and yet I could barely bat an eyelid. This kind of thing has sadly become...normal and normative.

jackiebaron

si_guru wrote: »

You are right it doesn't justify random pepper spraying.

I would protest under the right circumstances. But given that every protest worldwide recently has become violent (due to the presence of people with differing agendas) I would not go any protest - or "walk by" one.

"Daddy, where were you during the great Occupy Protests?"

si_guru: "Cowering under my bed, son."

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amerika

Iconic?

I wonder if she was wearing her "old lady combat boots" in the shot?

Some earlier family photos from bygone years of everyone’s current favorite run-of-the-mill granny.






I bet we all got a political activist ganny who relishes being an all-around troublemaker and who actively seeks out publicity for her orchestrated acts of civil disobedience. :pac:

amacachi

DeVore wrote: »

Eh??

I'm utterly confused as to what's right and left and I have a suspicion that it's considerably more complex than can be distilled down to a position on a one dimensional line.

I'll stick with stuff-that-makes-sense-to-me and you can reassign my box at will

DeV.

The idea of allowing a currency to exist and find its value on its own merits rather than by government decree isn't the most socialist idea ever. :pac:

Otacon

Amerika wrote: »

I bet we all got a political activist ganny who relishes being an all-around troublemaker and who actively seeks out publicity for her orchestrated acts of civil disobedience. :pac:

How is being a peaceful protestor being 'an all-around troublemaker'? Is protesting not all about getting 'publicity for her orchestrated acts of civil disobedience' otherwise no-one knows what you are protesting?

Amerika

Otacon wrote: »

How is being a peaceful protestor being 'an all-around troublemaker'?

Those are her own self-describing words from her own blog.

Is protesting not all about getting 'publicity for her orchestrated acts of civil disobedience' otherwise no-one knows what you are protesting?

Sure, but the fact remains that she isn't some random innocent bystander as was portrayed by the media with this supposed "‘iconic" picture.

LostinKildare

Amerika wrote: »

Sure, but the fact remains that she isn't some random innocent bystander as was portrayed by the media with this supposed "‘iconic" picture.

What did you base that on? I mean, on what did you base your interpretation that this was a photo of a "random innocent bystander"? Just the photo itself, or did you read a media report that characterized her as such?

karma_

Amerika wrote: »

Those are her own self-describing words from her own blog.


Sure, but the fact remains that she isn't some random innocent bystander as was portrayed by the media with this supposed "‘iconic" picture.

Do you believe that an 84 year old protester is fair game to be pepper sprayed?

Also, in your mind is innocence lost when one protests peacefully?

Manic Moran

karma_ wrote: »

Amerika wrote: »

Those are her own self-describing words from her own blog.


Sure, but the fact remains that she isn't some random innocent bystander as was portrayed by the media with this supposed "‘iconic" picture.

Do you believe that an 84 year old protester is fair game to be pepper sprayed?

Don't see why not. You probably wouldn't want to Taser her (the coat looks too thick anyway) and I am not aware of any law or policy which provides an upper age limit for the practice. If it's down to spray or man handling, neither is going to be proof against photographs or op eds.

karma_

Manic Moran wrote: »

Don't see why not. You probably wouldn't want to Taser her (the coat looks too thick anyway) and I am not aware of any law or policy which provides an upper age limit for the practice. If it's down to spray or man handling, neither is going to be proof against photographs or op eds.

Even if she was peacefully protesting? Let's not forget that in this instance it was reported she was a bystander, and not actually protesting.

I don't mind telling you that's a vile position to hold, morally and ethically.

Amerika

LostinKildare wrote: »

What did you base that on? I mean, on what did you base your interpretation that this was a photo of a "random innocent bystander"? Just the photo itself, or did you read a media report that characterized her as such?

The initial media reports of a little old lady on her way to a tranportation meeting being pepper sprayed.

Amerika

karma_ wrote: »

Do you believe that an 84 year old protester is fair game to be pepper sprayed?

Yup, I believe in equal rights.

Also, in your mind is innocence lost when one protests peacefully?

When one protests against something, isn't their innocence on the matter lost?

Carcharodon

Amerika wrote: »

Yup, I believe in equal rights.


When one protests against something, isn't their innocence on the matter lost?

No one knows you here so you can let your guard down and show some sympathy, not everyone cares so much about beating the left or right, some times things are more simple.

karma_

Amerika wrote: »

Yup, I believe in equal rights.


When one protests against something, isn't their innocence on the matter lost?

Equal rights? What planet do you live on?

LostinKildare

Manic Moran wrote: »

Don't see why not. You probably wouldn't want to Taser her (the coat looks too thick anyway) and I am not aware of any law or policy which provides an upper age limit for the practice. If it's down to spray or man handling, neither is going to be proof against photographs or op eds.

Don't know what the Seattle PD's guidelines are on the use of nonlethal force, but I imagine they're similar to the NYPD's, which allows the use of pepper spray only to protect the officer or another person from assault, to gain physical control over a person resisting arrest or fleeing custody, or to gain physical control over an emotionally disturbed person.

Not to disperse a crowd. Not to move people from blocking streets or sidewalks. Not for failure to obey a lawful order.

I suspect that Seattle's guidelines are similar, noting that the Mayor of Seattle has issued an apology "to those engaged in peaceful protest [who] were pepper sprayed." Roll on, the lawsuits.

Seattle cops pepper spraying the protestors on the night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDu0HKyzQIU