Woodbrook Glen/Corke Abbey playground. Why there is none?

A.T.

Hi, our family recently moved into Corke Abbey residential estate and after regularly seeing children playing in the middle of the road, having to run in all different directions to avoid approaching cars, we figured that a play area in the neighborhood does not exist. And neither do sporting facilities for teenagers, since groups of them are never seen being occupied with anything good.

In the local park, "the valley", shared with even bigger Woodbrook glen residential estate, this older kids are seen to be spending a lot of time. There is constant supply of evidence of what they are entertaining themselves with: graffiti, empty cans, burned marks from illegal fires. The park sadly appears to be very unpopular with anyone else except this kids and dog walkers.

At any time when me and my little son wanted to take a walk in the park there were unfriendly teens. We had to always turn back. We felt intimidated by the groups of adolescences who are obviously considering "the valley" to be their territory.

Meanwhile local residence committee members, when asked why the park remains without landscaping and bare from any facilities of recreational purpose, are categorical in respond that if the playground, sport field, benches and bins were indeed provided they would have attracted antisocial behavior. For that reason, they say, there historically has been a policy to vote down all the proposals regarding improvements for the park.

Catch 22 if you ask me (i.e. a measure or policy whose effect is the opposite of what was intended), but I am new to the area, and still remain only a humble outsider. To me it looks like the "bad guys" are having the last word, they are well provided with unwanted land to carry out their unhealthy activities. At the same time law abiding, but vulnerable, (and in case of young children voiceless), residents are banned from having much needed facilities in the park, and told to go away and play in Shankhill or Greystones.

I'm sure there is more to this then what meets the eye, that's why I was wondering if anyone with the knowledge of local affairs could pour some light on this situation. Yet again, it is not revolutionary ideas we are talking about, just a simple playground for kids, the same as exists in any other public park or any other normal neighborhood. Why it was never even tried in "the valley" as a cure against antisocial behavior, as common sense would suggest.

All your opinions welcome.

Son of Jack

Hi A.T. and welcome to Bray. I am sorry that you have had this experience. I hope as you get to know this area, you will come to see what a grand place it is to live.

When we moved here (twenty five years ago) it was just before Halloween . It wasn't until the summer that we got to know the neighbours properly. I think we all hibernate in Winter.

The valley is a great amenity. We find it is like an extension of our (small) back garden.

My children are teenagers now. Just to say, some times I would see a group of 'intimidating' looking teenagers in 'hoodies'. As I get closer I realise that it is the little fellows I have seeing growing up here. I find them chatty and friendly. The vast majority are fine. In my own experience I haven't found them 'territorial' but I could see how someone who was new to the area might perceive them to be. There are just a few 'bad apples' as any where. The valley has visitors from further afield. Because it is quiet and secluded it appeals to people for all sorts of reasons.

The Residents Association are very hard working and well informed. I was on the committee over twenty years ago. I lasted about four years. It was a thankless task. I'd have callers to my door at all hours of the evening concerning all sorts of issues e.g. an abandoned car. The Residents Association are a voluntary organisation. I used take all types of criticism at the door for any short comings in the local area at the time. As if the Residents Association was responsible.

They do a great Annual Clean Up of the 'valley' too. The regrowth in the summer makes it look much better. It is not at its best at the moment.

I hope you get to see the potential of the valley as it is. It is one of the remaining natural habitats in the South Dublin area. There is great wild life (this time not of a human kind) down there; foxes, bats, badgers, grey squirrels, king fishers, herons. The lower level of the valley is a flood plain which precludes any development on it either.

At the moment the Residents Association are working hard liaising with the County Council because a pipe line is being constructed through the valley. I went to a meeting about this and the breadth of the knowledge that the Residents Association representatives had on the valley (going back years) and the level of concern about the area was very reassuring. I felt we were in safe hands and was very grateful to them.

The two sturdy bridges in the valley are vandalised from time to time. The damage is done by a small minority. I can't see that a playground would escape unscathed. I would trust the combined wisdom of the Residents Association members. Quite a number of them are long term members. They know the history of what has been tried in the past; what has worked and what hasn't.

I understand that the park in Shankill is a long walk away. But even if one was to consider its positioning (beside the road) in full public view. This guards against vandalism. It would be too easy to get away with vandalism in the 'valley' and not be observed.

Ireland doesn't have a 'culture' of children's playgrounds like they do for example in Spain. I think it must be on account of the weather

Please don't feel like a 'humble outsider.' Very many of us come from elsewhere. Good idea to ask for background information and I hope you find something of interest in this post.

A.T.

Thank you, Son of Jack, for your friendly and informative respond. I am glad that we can talk here about this subject, and I greatly appreciate your reasoning as to why thighs are the way they are in the Linear Park. And I also wish to thank local committees and other community enthusiasts for the great work they do.

On the subject though of a need for improved facilities, there is obviously two different opinions are in existence, and since this question keeps being raised over and over it is most likely calling out for further public debate. In support of what I said earlier I would like to mention that past couple of decades have brought changes to Irish society and culture, and also changes to our estates. A number of families of mixed or international background have moved into the vicinity, in recent years, including our family, which is half Irish half eastern European. Social enclosure of this people is made harder through a limited use of the Park.



In fact it is currently serves the purpose for only two categories of our neighbors, dog walkers who are not coming there to sit, and youngsters who can sit on the ground, they don't mind that. For as long as the sits are not provided, pensioners or young mothers with prams will keep avoiding the Park. We are actually living here almost two years, but have not yet met other parents in the area. The valley could have been a meeting point for different community groups, but as it stands, it can't be, for fear of vandalism and for a sake of wild life preservation.

While my son is still very small I certainly can take him to play into different place, but one day children just grow up and go out the door to meet with their peers. The theory behind preserving local valley in its wild state, directs children to play in some designated areas elsewhere, but in reality they are staying close to their homes and "hanging around" on the road and in that valley. I think this fact does need greater acknowledgement - local kids don't play where we think they should, they spend time where it's most convenient for them, and there happens to be no facilities provided for them. This in turn causes all sorts of problems with anti-social behavior (ASB).

When our household bins were stolen to be later found burned down in the valley, the Garda officer was not at all surprised, she said its normal "people just have nothing else to do". May be this people deserve to be given something else to do, they are our kids after all.

Geographical position of the valley in the middle of some 600 households makes it an urban park, which lays upon it a requirement to provide local inhabitants with a space to relax, unwind, exercise and play. Well maintained park have always been a matter of civic pride making towns and cities an attractive places to work and live. Good local park also adds value to a property cost. Nothing suggests that increased popularity of the park would have posed a threat to a wild life. Look at the best examples of parks around the world. Not one tree needs to be cut down, there are open spaces that can be used to create playground, volleyball field and put half a dozen benches. This has never been done before, which means the threat of vandalism is only an assumption. Every popular park had to face the same dilemma: should community be threatened by a tiny minority of barbarians and provide facilities for no-one for that reason, or to press on with the civilized values and a quest for a better lifestyle. And a choice is usually made in favor of deserving majority, for a greater good to go ahead and create a wonderful space, where everyone could spend quality time and bond with the nature.

In case if the problem of vandalism does occur and persist, there is a wealth of experience that has been accumulated throughout Ireland in a past several years on how to face ASB problem upfront and have it solved. Today this information is available on http://www.changingireland.ie where experiences are shared. (i.e. there are steps can be taken such as CCTV monitoring in conjunction with Garda, etc).


I wish to thank you again for engaging in this public talk with me and invite others to join.



Respectfully

A.T.

Annasopra

I'm not 100% sure where this is but presumably if you do want something it has to go through Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Co not Bray town council

Son of Jack

Yes indeed Mango Salsa. Up here in this part of North Bray we are in the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown area. This does not stop some well meaning canvassers dropping in leaflets for candidates standing in the Wicklow constituency

Sorry to hear about your bins A.T.

My own experience with getting to know the neighbours, was that it was only when the children got to school going age that this happened. Perhaps when we have babies and toddlers we are more 'insular' as families. When mine were small on sunny days I used take a picnic blanket to sit on and spend time down the valley.

I was down the valley today and certainly it is not looking its best. The river is in flood. This is despite recent work by the council. The flooding results from the run off from the M50. It can take a week to ten days after heavy rain for flooding to reach the valley from the higher land. This makes it a no go area for buggies for perhaps three months of the year. Having said that I am fond of the valley and personally I would not like it developed or 'manicured'.

Because it is a flood plain the areas where one could put a small play park are limited. There is a flattish area near Woodbrook but during the summer the grass was let grow long and a very pleasing wild flower meadow was created.

If there was an amenity like a playground, it would attract visitors from further afield. Not a bad thing in itself. I am open to correction here but I heard the residents down in Sidmonton Square in Bray were not happy when a playground was put in their green space because their quiet residential area would be so much busier and it might attract anti social behaviour. There would be parking issues possibly in Corke Abbey and Woodbrook. Where would people park?

The large green area in Woodbrook Glen estate itself is overlooked on all sides by houses. But many of residents there would not like a playground there as it would attract so many including those who would not behave.

When my children were young the playground within walking distance was in The People's Park by the River Dargle. Last time I passed in the car, it seemed to me that it was gone. I am open to correction here once again but maintaining it in the face of vandalism was too much I would guess. The fact we are in a recession will mean that there won't be funds for developing the park. I'm sure all County Councils are finding it hard to fund basic services and certainly won't have any money left over.

Incidentally the best park we used find was in Cabinteely Park. But even that park has areas that the policy makers in their wisdom have left grow wild. Once again it is a haven for wildlife.

Once again I would suggest that one should not underestimate the wisdom of Dun Laoghaire Rathdown council or the Residents Association. You say the 'threat of vandalism is only an assumption'. I would respectfully say that the council have many public spaces within their boundaries and have experience of the vandalism that occurs. I would suggest that the Residents Association have experience and liaise with other associations and know what happens. Many of the Residents Association come from backgrounds and professions which would have an understanding of the consequences of building a children's playground in a fairly secluded area, in a 'bottle neck' between two residential estates.

I realise you may have baby sitting issues but I would strongly recommend that you get in touch with the Residents Association with a view to attending their meetings. Then you will see how well informed and well motivated they are. Debating this online will only achieve so much.

As a dog walker myself, the parent of teenagers (well supervised ) and a nature lover I understand we will have to agree to disagree With every good wish to you. J

Ms Minnie Mouse

Son of Jack - I applaud you for being the parent of well supervised teenagers I also live in Woodbrook, near the park. Over Halloween we had issues with bangers being thrown at houses, through the summer it was children climbing walls and using cars as target practice for their footballs. Strange cars parking at the end of the road after dark, culminating in a burglary from a neighbouring house early in the evening.

Quite often very young children can be seen playing chicken in front of cars (have had personal experience of this!) without a hint of parental supervision - up to 10/11 at night on occasion.

Whilst I appreciate that the Residents Association might be active (sadly, we're surviving on my single salary so the subscription is an extra that I simply can't afford), parents have a responsibility to supervise their children, the gardai need to attend when crimes are reported (and not two hours after bangers are thrown AT houses - which, might I add, is illegal) and an active neighbourhood watch scheme needs to be established. Whilst my neighbours and I are only renting our properties, none of us have been approached with a view to joining in a neighbourhood watch scheme - so from now on we're all going to have to stick together.

Fundamentally - there is absolutely NO excuse for the state of the park and the complete irresponsibility and carelessness (laziness?) of some members of the community. There is rubbish everywhere, dog muck all over the pavements and the grass (yes, I have seen a small minority pick up after their pet but judging by the state of the park it is very much a minority) and household rubbish. It could be argued that this is not down to local people, but it does seem unlikely that people would travel from elsewhere in Bray simply to dump furniture in The Valley.

I'm not looking for investment, development or landscaping - simply a nice environment. Sadly, even this seems to be too high an expectation.

Son of Jack

I am sorry that this has been your experience. You are right in what you say about parental responsibility.

You might find the following link to the Woodbrook Glen Residents Association interesting.

Whereas there is a fee to join the Residents Association (and I appreciate that these are recessionary times),

I don't think it costs anything to be involved with the Neighbourhood Watch.

I know I get a text alert from the Neighbourhood Watch from time to time if there is any buglaries or suspicious behaviour and I have contacted them myself once when there was a van driver behaving oddly (checking out houses, I thought).

This is the link. There is some information about Neighbourhood Watch there which I hope you find useful.

http://www.wgra.ie/index.html