Land drainage.

redzerologhlen

We have 12 acres shown in the picture below that we havnt really used in a few years as its fairly heavy ground and has become taken over with rushes. Theres open drains in blue and the bounds are in red. About 8 acres of it would need to be drained I would imagine. The other 4 are on a hill and are as dry as a bone. There is a good fall on all of it with no really level land. The auld lad was on about planting it about 6 years ago but I talked him out of it as I think it has the potential to make land. I have seen a lot worse reclaimed and turned into good grazing. The soil isint the sticky clay type. It is lighter and maybe a bit peaty in places. Have no experience of draining land so any info is much appreciated. Was thinking from reading old threads that the connacht agri pipe might suit. I know this kind of work is expensive but roughly how much an acre would it cost. I know that it varies a lot depending on the ground. Thanks

mallethead

I reclaimed about 10 acres this year it was fairly dry ground with a good slope
There was some wet spots and a spring coming up in the middle of it ,lots of granite rock and plenty of furze
i got a neighbour who has a tracked machine to clear it he was about 5 weeks in it at 40 euro an hour

By the time i fenced , seeded manured it ,limed it it cost 17000

pakalasa

Just a small thing, but I'd be slow to close up or move any existing drains. Remember someone someone probably stood scratching their head like you are doing now, wondering how's the best way to drain it.....and these guys dug it by hand. I've seen it more than once where they had to go back in and re-opened the closed drains again.

Rovi

pakalasa wrote: »

Just a small thing, but I'd be slow to close up or move any existing drains. Remember someone someone probably stood scratching their head like you are doing now, wondering how's the best way to drain it.....and these guys dug it by hand. I've seen it more than once where they had to go back in and re-opened the closed drains again.

BIG +1 to that!

I've spent 25 years or thereabouts rectifying and reopening 'dry' drains my father and various 'expert advisers' filled in back in the 60's and 70's.

Grass Hopper

Heres a mad idea but hear me out.Wait till the land drys a little,mark your drains you intend to dig and mow the rushes for 20ft either side.

Open drains and in with the pipe (ordinary yellow 80/100mil as I understand Connaught pipe is a wicked price),fork cut rushes in on top of pipe and backfill............now you lot are sniggering as you read this :rolleyes:.

From your picture and brief description it seems springs are whats wetting the land.Gravel will not help the cause as the water is coming from underneath the drain level.

Rushes or straw on the pipe will act as a filter over the pipe stopping fine soil clogging the pipe after backfilling.Without the cost of gravel you can afford to dig your drains closer together and give yourself a better chance of catching springs before the water reaches the surface.

My father began using straw in drains 30 years ago as a substitute for gravel and to this day if I open a drain he put in to repair a collapse the pipe remain spotless and flowing perfectly.
Back in the day when we were farming we rented neglected land,drained and ploughed it as a way of offsetting rent and at the same time getting good productive grazing for young drystock.This would not be possible if stone was required in drains.

Not saying its for everyone but it sure worked for us.

reilig

Stone and pipe drainage costs Eur4 per meter all in from local contractor.

Connacht agri costs Eur2.80 inc vat per meter. I have 2000 meters of it ordered which I hope to install next spring. 2 days with a digger will open all the drains and 2 days will close them and finish them. (Total of Eur1600 for digger - less than Eur1 per meter) Vat is reclaimable on all. I have seen a couple of farms that have been drained in this way. I have seen land which would not carry a tractor at any time of the year drained and able to carry a tractor at this time of year.

Most people have drained bogland with it and it appears to be working exceptionally well. Stone filled drains just don't work in bog - I have wasted a lot of stone to prove this over the years. I have only seen upland drained on one farm - It appears to be working exceptionally well and is draining perfectly.

I'll try to get a few pictures of the work that I do and post them up. I currently have a digger in to clean out the drains surrounding the fields, but it is too wet to open drainage shores.

Grass Hopper wrote: »

Heres a mad idea but hear me out.Wait till the land drys a little,mark your drains you intend to dig and mow the rushes for 20ft either side.

Open drains and in with the pipe (ordinary yellow 80/100mil as I understand Connaught pipe is a wicked price),fork cut rushes in on top of pipe and backfill............now you lot are sniggering as you read this :rolleyes:.

From your picture and brief description it seems springs are whats wetting the land.Gravel will not help the cause as the water is coming from underneath the drain level.

Rushes or straw on the pipe will act as a filter over the pipe stopping fine soil clogging the pipe after backfilling.Without the cost of gravel you can afford to dig your drains closer together and give yourself a better chance of catching springs before the water reaches the surface.

My father began using straw in drains 30 years ago as a substitute for gravel and to this day if I open a drain he put in to repair a collapse the pipe remain spotless and flowing perfectly.
Back in the day when we were farming we rented neglected land,drained and ploughed it as a way of offsetting rent and at the same time getting good productive grazing for young drystock.This would not be possible if stone was required in drains.

Not saying its for everyone but it sure worked for us.

bigted2

what about mole ploughing

redzerologhlen

I wouldnt be planning on filling any of the drains. They arent really in the way. Be no harm to clean them out though. I thought to try a subsoiler but I would prefer a more long term solution and would like to seed it if it was drained. You cant see in the picture really but there is 2 steep hills in it. One at the front of the drain in the middle and one at the back of it. The hills are dry as a bone. I dont think it the kind of ground stone drains would work in. Would imagine they would get blocked very quickly. Theres a big mountain where I took the picture from and I would imagine a lot of the rain that falls ends up in our place. If another drain was opened along the back wall of it would it catch a lot of the water coming from the mountain or is it more likely it is just springs coming up through the ground.

vanderbadger

reilig wrote: »

Stone and pipe drainage costs Eur4 per meter all in from local contractor.

Connacht agri costs Eur2.80 inc vat per meter. I have 2000 meters of it ordered which I hope to install next spring. 2 days with a digger will open all the drains and 2 days will close them and finish them. (Total of Eur1600 for digger - less than Eur1 per meter) Vat is reclaimable on all. I have seen a couple of farms that have been drained in this way. I have seen land which would not carry a tractor at any time of the year drained and able to carry a tractor at this time of year.

Most people have drained bogland with it and it appears to be working exceptionally well. Stone filled drains just don't work in bog - I have wasted a lot of stone to prove this over the years. I have only seen upland drained on one farm - It appears to be working exceptionally well and is draining perfectly.

I'll try to get a few pictures of the work that I do and post them up. I currently have a digger in to clean out the drains surrounding the fields, but it is too wet to open drainage shores.

did you order the pipe off the coop reilig or could you buy it direct from Connaght, i think that yellow pipe isnt worth putting in

Rovi

There's bound to be a lot of water coming down off that mountain into your land. If you have the falls and can make it work, an open drain all along that boundary would divert an awful lot of it in my opinion.
As you say, tidying up the existing open drains would be well worth doing too.

pakalasa

I think every drainage job differs. It all depends on soil type, slope of land etc.
I would agree with Rovi, if you have a dry hill, you need to catch the water as it comes of the hill before it gets to the flat part, either by open drains or stone drains filled to the top with stone.
For the flat part, what is the subsoil like? Will it let water through. I know we have heavy clay type low lying corcas land. Once the open drains are kept maintained around the field edge, then the land will stay bone dry.

You might be surprised, opening the drains might be enough. You could do this the first year and then go back a year later in dry weather and stone drain the wet parts only. It might be cheaper overall.

Tipp Man

Are you going to be allowed to drain it with the new rules that came in there a couple of months ago?

Grecco

your neighbour has the most profitable solution

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

redzerologhlen

Tipp Man wrote: »

Are you going to be allowed to drain it with the new rules that came in there a couple of months ago?

Im sure you would be. Shouldnt be too hard to get permission I would imagine.

redzerologhlen

Grecco wrote: »

your neighbour has the most profitable solution

When I was a young lad there wasnt a single rush in that field. It used to be baled every year with no problems. Its neglect more than anything that has it looking the way it is now. 12 acres of a meadow would be worth a lot more to me than 12 acres of trees.

redzerologhlen

pakalasa wrote: »

I think every drainage job differs. It all depends on soil type, slope of land etc.
I would agree with Rovi, if you have a dry hill, you need to catch the water as it comes of the hill before it gets to the flat part, either by open drains or stone drains filled to the top with stone.
For the flat part, what is the subsoil like? Will it let water through. I know we have heavy clay type low lying corcas land. Once the open drains are kept maintained around the field edge, then the land will stay bone dry.

You might be surprised, opening the drains might be enough. You could do this the first year and then go back a year later in dry weather and stone drain the wet parts only. It might be cheaper overall.

Theres about 3 feet of clay and then that grey dawb underneath. No water will go down through that stuff.

reilig

vanderbadger wrote: »

did you order the pipe off the coop reilig or could you buy it direct from Connaght, i think that yellow pipe isnt worth putting in

Rang connacht agri and they directed me to a farmer in my area who has used it. Went to the farmer and he showed me his drainage and that of a few of his neighbours all done with connacht agri pipe. Farmer is now the local rep for them and I have ordered through him. I assume he gets some comission from them. Priced it in some co-ops and they were more expensive :rolleyes:

kboc

reilig wrote: »

Rang connacht agri and they directed me to a farmer in my area who has used it. Went to the farmer and he showed me his drainage and that of a few of his neighbours all done with connacht agri pipe. Farmer is now the local rep for them and I have ordered through him. I assume he gets some comission from them. Priced it in some co-ops and they were more expensive :rolleyes:

Does this pipe work in all type of soils.

My brain has difficulty in accepting how a drain filled with stone and a pipe near the bottom, is not as good as that pipe covered in soil!

Is there any secret in laying theis con agri pipe?

Is there a stockist in NI?

lab man

redzer,
there is a man in cranny, coolmeen area. co. clare he has drained the worst of land if i was you i'd take trip to him before you do anything he will give the best info of all lots go to see what he has done i think his name is pender,
i've drained a good bit about 20ac myself an used no yellow pipe i believe that connaght pipe is no good for boggy soil either as it silts up the outher membrane i asked one rep at the ploughing to know would they guarentee it in bog an he said they wouldn't. so what does that say.

P.S. yer profile says the heart of the burren!!!

pakalasa

I had a look at this white membrane on the Connaught Agri pipes at the local COOP. I would have doubts too that it would last 20 years without getting blocked up.
As someone said on here before, every filter be it for diesel, oil has to be changed at set intervals, why - because it gets blocked up. That's what a filter is, by definition.

vanderbadger

pakalasa wrote: »

I had a look at this white membrane on the Connaught Agri pipes at the local COOP. I would have doubts too that it would last 20 years without getting blocked up.
As someone said on here before, every filter be it for diesel, oil has to be changed at set intervals, why - because it gets blocked up. That's what a filter is, by definition.

ya dont think it would work on our dawb y type ground. kelly agri store in clare told me they stopped selling it to avoid any more hassle with customers so that wasnt a great sign I thought

Suckler

kboc wrote: »

Does this pipe work in all type of soils.

My brain has difficulty in accepting how a drain filled with stone and a pipe near the bottom, is not as good as that pipe covered in soil!

I'm of the same opinion if crushed clean rock isn't used I dont see how the pipe wont eventually get clogged? If I was putting in pipe + soil directly on top I'd want some sort of filter fabric around the pipe.

reilig

Suckler wrote: »

I'm of the same opinion if crushed clean rock isn't used I dont see how the pipe wont eventually get clogged? If I was putting in pipe + soil directly on top I'd want some sort of filter fabric around the pipe.

That's not the issue for draining soft or peaty land.

When you pour stone into a trench that is dug in a bog, the stone is heavier than the soil around it. It sinks, bringing the pipe with it, causing dips in the pipe and your drainage to fail.

Stone and pipe is great for draining "dry" ground, but that's a bit pointless.

Connacht agri pipe has a fabric around the pipe.

Suckler

reilig wrote: »

That's not the issue for draining soft or peaty land.

When you pour stone into a trench that is dug in a bog, the stone is heavier than the soil around it. It sinks, bringing the pipe with it, causing dips in the pipe and your drainage to fail.

Yes; I see your point on that; You could sink a lot of stone in soft land but its the clogging issue that I have my doubts about. Withot some sort of barrier the pipe willl invariably get clogged an you are bac to square one.

How long have you the pipes in the ground on your own land?

reilig

kboc wrote: »

Does this pipe work in all type of soils.

My brain has difficulty in accepting how a drain filled with stone and a pipe near the bottom, is not as good as that pipe covered in soil!

Is there any secret in laying theis con agri pipe?

Is there a stockist in NI?

If soil is permiable, then this pipe will work. ie. if water will flow through the soil. To test, you should dig a hole in the field that you want to drain. The hole should be 2ft deep and 2ft in diameter. It should not be a rainy day. If this hole fills with water, then your soil is permiable and water will flow through the soil to the pipe.

As Vanderbadger says, I don't think it will work in dauby ground because it is not permiable. But will stone and pipe work in dauby ground? Not really - unless you do a lot of mole ploughing.

The pipe is laid with a 2 inch fall per 10 meters. For ease of laying the pipe, it is best to dig the trench with a 2ft bucket - this is because when you dig in bog or loose clay, the sides of the trenches have a habit of collapsing.

Lads, I have done a good bit of research on these. I've driven quite a bit to see them working, see them being laid. I don't know how well they will work on my land, but if you have drainage to do, before you come up with some sort of excuse to knock the pipe or the membrane, call conacht agri, get the number for the rep in your area, and go and see the drainage that he or she has done. Its cheaper than stone and pipe. If you're putting it into boggy ground, will last longer than stone and pipe.

Disclaimer. I'm not trying to promote the product. I'm just saying that a lot of people posting here have made up their mind that it will be of no use even though they know nothing about it or have not seen it in action.

reilig

Suckler wrote: »

Yes; I see your point on that; You could sink a lot of stone in soft land but its the clogging issue that I have my doubts about. Withot some sort of barrier the pipe willl invariably get clogged an you are bac to square one.

How long have you the pipes in the ground on your own land?

But there is a barrier.

I don't have any pipes in the ground yet. As I said above, i have just ordered mine. However, the rep on whose land I saw the pipes has them for over 4 years.

Suckler

reilig wrote: »

Connacht agri pipe has a fabric around the pipe.

Missed that bit

redzerologhlen

lab man wrote: »

redzer,
there is a man in cranny, coolmeen area. co. clare he has drained the worst of land if i was you i'd take trip to him before you do anything he will give the best info of all lots go to see what he has done i think his name is pender,
i've drained a good bit about 20ac myself an used no yellow pipe i believe that connaght pipe is no good for boggy soil either as it silts up the outher membrane i asked one rep at the ploughing to know would they guarentee it in bog an he said they wouldn't. so what does that say.

P.S. yer profile says the heart of the burren!!!

We have bits of land scattered all over the place. This is the worst bit by a long way though and hasnt been used cause the rest of our land is fairly good. I think its an awful waste like that though. look at the pictures I have in the picture thread. Plenty of the burren in them:)

pakalasa

....and I wasn't trying to knock the Connaugt Agri pipes either. It's just that this is a new concept and it hasn't passed the test of time. It's a lot of expense for someone to go to, for something that is still unproven.

I still think that a few inches of sand around these pipes would do wonders for them, but's that just my opinion.;)

redzerologhlen

reilig wrote: »

If soil is permiable, then this pipe will work. ie. if water will flow through the soil. To test, you should dig a hole in the field that you want to drain. The hole should be 2ft deep and 2ft in diameter. It should not be a rainy day. If this hole fills with water, then your soil is permiable and water will flow through the soil to the pipe.

As Vanderbadger says, I don't think it will work in dauby ground because it is not permiable. But will stone and pipe work in dauby ground? Not really - unless you do a lot of mole ploughing.

The pipe is laid with a 2 inch fall per 10 meters. For ease of laying the pipe, it is best to dig the trench with a 2ft bucket - this is because when you dig in bog or loose clay, the sides of the trenches have a habit of collapsing.

Lads, I have done a good bit of research on these. I've driven quite a bit to see them working, see them being laid. I don't know how well they will work on my land, but if you have drainage to do, before you come up with some sort of excuse to knock the pipe or the membrane, call conacht agri, get the number for the rep in your area, and go and see the drainage that he or she has done. Its cheaper than stone and pipe. If you're putting it into boggy ground, will last longer than stone and pipe.

Disclaimer. I'm not trying to promote the product. I'm just saying that a lot of people posting here have made up their mind that it will be of no use even though they know nothing about it or have not seen it in action.

The soil is permiable reilig. We cleaned out the open drains about 6 years ago and I can remember the water flowing through the soil into the drain. I have good faith in this pipe. The outer membrane seems very similar to teram which people have used for years to make solid lawns for themselves in boggy ground. The filter is supposed to be something around 90% porous compared to yellow pipe which is around 15%. Thats a big difference. People will always be wary of these new products. I would like to see a place where it was used and how well it was working before I would make up my mind on it.

crackcrack30

Could u try drain a sample area of a couple of acres to see drainage impact?

cc30.

( I think poaching of ground due to farms carring too much stock is a big contributer to rush growth, slatted sheds allowed farms to dramatically increase stocking levels)

reilig

pakalasa wrote: »

....and I wasn't trying to knock the Connaugt Agri pipes either. It's just that this is a new concept and it hasn't passed the test of time. It's a lot of expense for someone to go to, for something that is still unproven.

I still think that a few inches of sand around these pipes would do wonders for them, but's that just my opinion.;)

For me, 20 years of trying to drain bogland with traditional perforated pipe and stone system has proven to be unsucessful - it blocks too easily, the drains sink because of the weight of the stone and this prevents them from flowing. Its a waste of expensive drainage. I have seen this filtered drainage pipe in action and feel that it is worth a punt ahead of ordinary drainage. It is also cheaper than ordinary drainage.

Time will tell I suppose.

redzerologhlen

reilig wrote: »

Stone and pipe drainage costs Eur4 per meter all in from local contractor.

Connacht agri costs Eur2.80 inc vat per meter. I have 2000 meters of it ordered which I hope to install next spring. 2 days with a digger will open all the drains and 2 days will close them and finish them. (Total of Eur1600 for digger - less than Eur1 per meter) Vat is reclaimable on all. I have seen a couple of farms that have been drained in this way. I have seen land which would not carry a tractor at any time of the year drained and able to carry a tractor at this time of year.

Most people have drained bogland with it and it appears to be working exceptionally well. Stone filled drains just don't work in bog - I have wasted a lot of stone to prove this over the years. I have only seen upland drained on one farm - It appears to be working exceptionally well and is draining perfectly.

I'll try to get a few pictures of the work that I do and post them up. I currently have a digger in to clean out the drains surrounding the fields, but it is too wet to open drainage shores.

Was just thinking reilig, How much ground would you expect to drain with 2000 meters of pipe. I havnt a clue how much of an are it would cover.

reilig

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Was just thinking reilig, How much ground would you expect to drain with 2000 meters of pipe. I havnt a clue how much of an are it would cover.

6 acres.

The land is virtually unusable at the moment. Its very wet. I let light weinlings eat it a couple of times per year, but in total, it only feeds about 6 weinlings for 3 weeks per year. It has good deep drains around it, but it contains a ot of wet sport where turf was extracted in the olden days.

When I went to the local rep for to look at what he had drained, he had similar ground. He could only bring a tractor onto it during the driest summers. The evening that I was there was the evening of the flooding in Dublin a few weeks back. We had got heavy rain for a full 5 days before that and it was raining heavy. We drove out into the middle of it on his tractor

bbam

How deep does it go?
We have heavy stick soil, even a little peaty..

My fear would be if it were put too deep the water just wouldn't soak down to it..

reilig

bbam wrote: »

How deep does it go?
We have heavy stick soil, even a little peaty..

My fear would be if it were put too deep the water just wouldn't soak down to it..

It'll be no more than 18 inches deep. My land is perfectly dry below 18 inches.

pakalasa

I though I'd add to the thread rather than start a new one.

There was an article in the Journal a few weeks back about drainage in New Zealand. Bascically the land was a peaty top, with a free draining gravelly type underneath. They were mixing both soids up into hills and hollows. The resulting soils had better drainage and the troughs channelled all the excess rain water away. Radical approach but it seemed to be working.

A few weeks later then the Journal had another article about a similar job that was done in ireland. I wonder could it be a cost effective solution for a lot of problem land in Ireland.

Markcheese

Think I saw that on the north island years ago.... Very flat low lying ground. all the paddocks had that dip / hummock pattern was told they'd used a road grader to make the pattern... Looked like serious dairy country... Might see if I can spot it on google maps.. ? Went on for miles

pakalasa

I found something on it. It's called Humps and Hollows system.

http://maxa.maf.govt.nz/sff/about-projects/search/03-126/03126-final-farmer-interview-report.pdf
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/dairy/managing-wet-soils/surface-drainage

milkprofit

green field farm in capaquin has it working

Markcheese

Can't imagine it's cheap to do over a large area.... But the article was about west coast of the south island wet wet wet.... Makes west cork/ south Kerry feel dry.. 2000 mil rainfall a year at sea level... Higher you go higher the rainfall ...

larthehar

reilig wrote: »

6 acres.

The land is virtually unusable at the moment. Its very wet. I let light weinlings eat it a couple of times per year, but in total, it only feeds about 6 weinlings for 3 weeks per year. It has good deep drains around it, but it contains a ot of wet sport where turf was extracted in the olden days.

When I went to the local rep for to look at what he had drained, he had similar ground. He could only bring a tractor onto it during the driest summers. The evening that I was there was the evening of the flooding in Dublin a few weeks back. We had got heavy rain for a full 5 days before that and it was raining heavy. We drove out into the middle of it on his tractor

I am in the market for drainage pipes and i am very interested in the connacht agri theory, Reilig, maybe can do a status update on how these pipes worked for you??

larthehar

larthehar wrote: »

I am in the market for drainage pipes and i am very interested in the connacht agri theory, Reilig, maybe can do a status update on how these pipes worked for you??

Bump...

Figerty

larthehar wrote: »

Bump...

I have put a small amount down and it's working away slowly draining boggy ground. I know it will work short term, the question I have is when the particles move through the ground will the block the pipe up long term or will the membrane break down over time, rot and the pipe fill.
However, its working now at the moment about 18 inches down. It's a long term slow drain not a quick fix

razor8

did you get your pipes in reilig and if so how did you get on?