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Renato Canova's training ideas.

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  • this is a super thread - thanks T Runner




  • T runner wrote: »
    Canova believes any training that is too fast will taech the body to burn too much glycogen and bring the wall into play.

    This is particularly true if you're a 'fast-twitch' type. John 'Hadd' Walsh said that if a fast-twitch runner was in good 5-10k shape 4 weeks before a marathon there's no point in him turning up for the marathon. I've learned this the hard way.




  • This is particularly true if you're a 'fast-twitch' type. John 'Hadd' Walsh said that if a fast-twitch runner was in good 5-10k shape 4 weeks before a marathon there's no point in him turning up for the marathon. I've learned this the hard way.

    There also seems to be a very fine balance even for the very elites at the front of major marathons. These races now seem to be between a group of 4-5 up until after 34k when the liklihood emerges that the strong runner will break. It is not unusual for this runner to put up 90s -120s on his rivals in the remaining kilometres.

    A reason could be that he is the only one of the group running at the correct intsensity. In order to keep up, the slighly weaker runners are burning too much glygogen relative to fat.
    So when the strong runner realises he has enough in his fibrers (fast and slow) to run strongly to the line: he takes off. His rivals have for some kilometres been burning fuel from their tiring fast twitch fibres and that is why the strong runner puts so much time into ALL his rivals.




  • T runner wrote: »
    There also seems to be a very fine balance even for the very elites at the front of major marathons. These races now seem to be between a group of 4-5 up until after 34k when the liklihood emerges that the strong runner will break. It is not unusual for this runner to put up 90s -120s on his rivals in the remaining kilometres.

    A reason could be that he is the only one of the group running at the correct intsensity. In order to keep up, the slighly weaker runners are burning too much glygogen relative to fat.
    So when the strong runner realises he has enough in his fibrers (fast and slow) to run strongly to the line: he takes off. His rivals have for some kilometres been burning fuel from their tiring fast twitch fibres and that is why the strong runner puts so much time into ALL his rivals.

    I think this is where progression runs also come into effect with Canova. Have yet to read in depth his book but from what I have read of it (cheers Krusty:D).

    The idea of these progression runs is to exhaust slow twitch fibres early on and aim to develop fast twitch oxidative fibres to act much like the slow twitch fibres as well as developing a third fast twitch fibre type known as an intermediate fibre type which again can be developed to show aerobic tyoe characteristics.

    By doing this come race day these fast twitch fibres no longer possess the typical attributes associated with with fast twitch glycolytic fibres but act similar to the slow twitch fibres in the second half of the race allowing runners to put in surges which many people interpret as their naturally speed kicking in but moreso their strength

    In relation to Krusty's previous post on 5k training I think this is one of the main reasons for the lack of 5k paced sessions in an attempt to keep the type II fast twitch fibres that in most 5k runners from developing anaerobic characteristics associated with speed the aim is to make these imitate the more slow twitch fibres associated with marathon running. He goes on to describe these types of runners as "fast marathon runners" who come from a 10k track background and muscle composition is roughly 2/3 s of type one fibres but also contain a significant amount of type II (oxidative) muscles also as opposed to "endurance marathon runners" who would derive most of their muscle composition from type I fibres (almost 90%)

    (Again havent read it fully cover to cover just yet so just going on knowledge of it from lets run and other posts for the most part)




  • Indeed! Great to have the interpretation as well as the raw information.
    Much to think about..

    The thing I like about P&D is that it is a complete plan, covering the all of the week's activities for the entire duration, whereas Canova would represent a complete change in strategy, a leap into the unknown. I was looking for a hybrid plan, but it seems that some of the fundamentals are different. With P&D you do your hardest 5k session two weeks before the goal race (3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace), whereas with Canova, you leave all that stuff behind in the early parts of your training and focus on specificity. A hybrid plan might be difficult to achieve, given that tough P&D 5k intervals will not align very well with a Canova long run interval session a couple of days later.


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  • ecoli wrote: »
    I think this is where progression runs also come into effect with Canova. Have yet to read in depth his book but from what I have read of it (cheers Krusty:D).

    The idea of these progression runs is to exhaust slow twitch fibres early on and aim to develop fast twitch oxidative fibres to act much like the slow twitch fibres as well as developing a third fast twitch fibre type known as an intermediate fibre type which again can be developed to show aerobic tyoe characteristics.

    By doing this come race day these fast twitch fibres no longer possess the typical attributes associated with with fast twitch glycolytic fibres but act similar to the slow twitch fibres in the second half of the race allowing runners to put in surges which many people interpret as their naturally speed kicking in but moreso their strength

    In relation to Krusty's previous post on 5k training I think this is one of the main reasons for the lack of 5k paced sessions in an attempt to keep the type II fast twitch fibres that in most 5k runners from developing anaerobic characteristics associated with speed the aim is to make these imitate the more slow twitch fibres associated with marathon running. He goes on to describe these types of runners as "fast marathon runners" who come from a 10k track background and muscle composition is roughly 2/3 s of type one fibres but also contain a significant amount of type II (oxidative) muscles also as opposed to "endurance marathon runners" who would derive most of their muscle composition from type I fibres (almost 90%)

    (Again havent read it fully cover to cover just yet so just going on knowledge of it from lets run and other posts for the most part)

    The long progression runs certainly have this affect apparently. He also does a 35k run with 5 by 2k at HM pace near the end. THis is forcing these fibres to take on endurance qualitites. In fact the athlete is expected to "bonk" during one of the 2k reps. The adaption from one of these bonks will push the bonk 2k further down the road so to speak, one of the adaptions obviouly being these fibres ability to endure (like Type Is).

    As only 20% or so of muscle fibres are used in any kind of endurance run until depletion: he uses the uphill sprints and shorter fast progressive runs to actually get the body used to recruiting a high percentage of fibres. After depletion of Type Is late in those long progression runs and other horror sessions: the job of recruiting these fibres is easier so more can be called upon to take over the endurance work from the Type 1s.

    That said the stronger athlete in the leading group will be recruiting these fibres later in the race than the weaker ones who are running too fast in order to keep up. He will be powering away on his type II's long after their turbos have burned the Glycogen stores, and will ship a disproportiontly big time gap compared with their very tiny differences in standards.

    Thats why i think his concentration on specifics is especially important in the marathon: If you pace it correctly you can negatively split with a last fast section. That is a big swing campared to the usual fade when depletion usually spells minutes towards the end and attaineable by concentarting the efforts around marathon pace in the 2 month prior to the event.




  • Indeed! Great to have the interpretation as well as the raw information.
    Much to think about..

    The thing I like about P&D is that it is a complete plan, covering the all of the week's activities for the entire duration, whereas Canova would represent a complete change in strategy, a leap into the unknown. I was looking for a hybrid plan, but it seems that some of the fundamentals are different. With P&D you do your hardest 5k session two weeks before the goal race (3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace), whereas with Canova, you leave all that stuff behind in the early parts of your training and focus on specificity. A hybrid plan might be difficult to achieve, given that tough P&D 5k intervals will not align very well with a Canova long run interval session a couple of days later.

    Personally I like the idea of having a hard Vo2 session ten days out from goal race (much like P & Ds 3x1 mile) to help enhance oxygen uptake within the body. This is along the same lines as Joe Rubio (high mileage MD coach) and comes from the idea that it takes roughly 10 days to get the benefit from a very hard session which can help boost overall fitness levels come race day. I think though while i like this in terms of my own training in distances up until HM I can see the drawbacks of trying to include this template to a marathon training plan

    Interestingly enough I am racing Waterford 10 days from now and have the same idea in mind so have lined up a tune up race just to aim to boost fitness levels (3 mile)

    There is a coach from the US (Mark Hadley) who has had some notable success with coaching methods similar to Canova in terms of specific phase in the 8 weeks coming up to target race. While he does include 5k paced work early on but like Canova advocates high volume of short reps. I think he gives an example outline of a schedule for a marathon (I know he does for half marathons also) in his coaching book which is similar to Canova in that it is more so training principles as opposed to actual schedules

    I know these aren't for everyone but I like the why behind a schedule rather than just a laid out plan personally




  • As well as maximising the oxidative capacity of the relevant fast twitch fibres, it would be desirable to recruit as many slow twitch fibres as possible. The more of these that can be recruited and fatigued prior to having to rely on fast twitch fibres the longer you'll last. The assumption is made that Canova's athletes start this training on top of a massive base of years of big mileage.

    Lots of aerobic running, with long runs and limited (or none?) anaerobic running (prior to starting this programme) might be the best way to bring about adaptations needed in as many slow twitch fibres as possible, i.e. greater capillary density and numbers of mitochondria. Hadd reckoned that many runners (due to either a) not running enough or b) running too fast all the time, or both did not have sufficient numbers of slow twitch fibres trained, so they had to 'dip into' fast twitch fibres earlier and so increased glycogen usage bringing the wall closer.




  • Indeed! Great to have the interpretation as well as the raw information.
    Much to think about..

    The thing I like about P&D is that it is a complete plan, covering the all of the week's activities for the entire duration, whereas Canova would represent a complete change in strategy, a leap into the unknown. I was looking for a hybrid plan, but it seems that some of the fundamentals are different. With P&D you do your hardest 5k session two weeks before the goal race (3 x 1 mile @ 5k pace), whereas with Canova, you leave all that stuff behind in the early parts of your training and focus on specificity. A hybrid plan might be difficult to achieve, given that tough P&D 5k intervals will not align very well with a Canova long run interval session a couple of days later.

    Ill be trying to get a schedule together in the couple of weeks. Ill send iot your way when ive it finalised. Ill start a log too. Youre welcome to follow it and perhaps try something for the next marathon (after Spring) if my effort hasnt resembled a train crash!.

    My schedule for the fundamental phase so far has been a long P+D run, and laods of miles in between some tempos, some long tempos. Canova has said thsi period should involve many stimulii so im goingt o enjoy it and push all buttons. 10 by 100 all out uphill after tonights run (more like 5 but well see).
    Doing the Clonliffe 5k, so ill do some 400s at 5k pace with 1 minute rest.

    A week now might be:

    S long 2:15m 115% PMP
    M 2 recovery runs
    T 12 by 400 @ 5k pace with 1 min rest
    W Lunch Progression run 30-40 mins ending at 10k pace and 8 by 80 uphill hard.
    PM rtecovery
    T P+D Medium long run 85mins
    F As monday
    S WU AT pace 30 mins 8 by 80 uphill at end.

    Closer to special phase:

    S long 2:40m 115% PMP
    M 2 recovery runs
    T 5 by 2k at T pace + 6 by 1k at 10k pace
    W Lunch: fast continous run 30-40 mins and 10 by 100m uphill hard.
    PM rtecovery
    T P+D Medium long run 95mins
    F As monday
    S WU AT pace 20 mins at HM pace+15 mins at HM pace + 10 + 5. recovery is 1k at PMP + 30-40 s per Km.

    Ill be keeping the structure the same. Will be trying new sessions all the time but keeping the slow tendency towards specifity.
    The specific phase will be most difficult. But after one or two sessions i should be able to work out how to modify the remainder to suit. I reckon i will still be doing a P + D long run every 2 weeks even in the specific stage. I can try and increase the pace slighly to get a stronger stimulus if necessary.




  • The assumption is made that Canova's athletes start this training on top of a massive base of years of big mileage.

    Lots of aerobic running, with long runs and limited (or none?) anaerobic running (prior to starting this programme) might be the best way to bring about adaptations needed in as many slow twitch fibres as possible, i.e. greater capillary density and numbers of mitochondria. Hadd reckoned that many runners (due to either a) not running enough or b) running too fast all the time, or both did not have sufficient numbers of slow twitch fibres trained, so they had to 'dip into' fast twitch fibres earlier and so increased glycogen usage bringing the wall closer.

    I think this is a very important factor when dealing with Canova's training philosophies. You are talking of a coach who deals with predominantly east Africans.These are athletes who have spent years building the aerobic endurance to handle such training. This is evident in his ideas of mileage in the book when he talks of athletes training for the marathon must be covering +140 miles a week and even as high as 190 during peak training.


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  • As well as maximising the oxidative capacity of the relevant fast twitch fibres, it would be desirable to recruit as many slow twitch fibres as possible. The more of these that can be recruited and fatigued prior to having to rely on fast twitch fibres the longer you'll last. The assumption is made that Canova's athletes start this training on top of a massive base of years of big mileage.

    Lots of aerobic running, with long runs and limited (or none?) anaerobic running (prior to starting this programme) might be the best way to bring about adaptations needed in as many slow twitch fibres as possible, i.e. greater capillary density and numbers of mitochondria. Hadd reckoned that many runners (due to either a) not running enough or b) running too fast all the time, or both did not have sufficient numbers of slow twitch fibres trained, so they had to 'dip into' fast twitch fibres earlier and so increased glycogen usage bringing the wall closer.

    Thats all true. And the implication is that the proportion of training where afst twitch fibres are used might need to be reduced for athletes (like myself) with relatively less of a base.

    The fundamental stage-- which is quite demanding--- is built on this aerobic base. The athletes base will most likely determine how big a fundamental phase he can do, which in turn determines the quality of the important special and crucial specific phases. So, on paper, the specific phase will be as hard as the base allows.


    The runner may not mirror a final 10 weeks of a Kenyan elite, but if he/she sticks to the philosphy of specifity: he will burn less glycogen at race pace in the slow fibres he has trained and in the fast fibres that his condition has allowed him to train.

    Perhaps if sessions should be dropped from an an elite scedule, favouritism should go to preserving proportionately more sessions that would develop slow twitch endurance?

    I do feel that the runner, in most cases, will make more beneficial adaptions to running a marathon by applying Canovas specifity than by the less specific build ups.




  • ecoli wrote: »
    I think this is a very important factor when dealing with Canova's training philosophies. You are talking of a coach who deals with predominantly east Africans.These are athletes who have spent years building the aerobic endurance to handle such training. This is evident in his ideas of mileage in the book when he talks of athletes training for the marathon must be covering +140 miles a week and even as high as 190 during peak training.

    True but the philosphy is (paraphrase) : the best training is specific, all other training's sole purpose is to support this specific training.

    This philosophy should apply equally to a novice 5k schedule, an intermediate 10k schedule or a world marathon champion's schedule.




  • T runner wrote: »
    Ill be trying to get a schedule together in the couple of weeks.

    I recently followed a self-made programme trying to incorporate Canova sessions as much as I could. It didn't end as I'd have liked. Having dipped under 58 at Ballycotton but knowing I'm weaker the longer it gets and a PB of 2:59, initial target was 2:50 with possibility of changing to 2:45 if training went well. Here is what I did: 2 sessions a week, easy runs all other days. Ran every day, doubled only maybe 4 or 5 times.

    Wk 1: long run - 14m with last 3 MP effort

    Wk 2: 6x1m HMP (6:05); long run with 90mins continuous in middle, 30 at 90% MP, 30 at 95%, 30 at 100% (bailed on 100% segment at 25mins)

    Wk 3: 5x2k 108% MP (6:00); long run with 3x3m MP (6:20)

    Wk 4: 4x2m HMP (drifted from 6:00s to 6:20s, very hot and humid); 13m 32mins continuous, 8mins each at 102,104,106,108% MP (struggled at 104 and 106, couldn't seem to speed up from 102, but 108 segment was 5:58 pace, felt better as it went on)

    Wk 5: (unplanned originally but wanted to do some fast running prior to 10m race) 6x1k at 10k pace; 10m race just under 61, happy with effort, was very hot and very humid

    Wk 6: (unplanned) 10k no looking at watch tempo (6:00); long run with 3x4m MP (6:20)

    Wk 7: 3x5k off 3mins at 103/105/107% MP (got slower rather than faster with each rep, 6:00, 6:05, 6:11); long run 10m 90% MP, 8m MP, 2m 105% MP (6:26 for MP effort, 6:00 for last 2)

    Wk 8: planned 3x3m HMP, changed this to 4x2m a few days beforehand, started at just under 6:00, finished at 5:48; 20m easy last 2-3m at MP (only managed 2 at MP, things weren't good)

    Wk 9: planned 36mins cont. 9 each @ 102,104,106,108%, ended up doing 6 x 1k with HM coming up; HM race just over 80mins, about 5mins slower than hoped, put it down to weather, hills, running alone for most, not fully recovered from big weeks/long runs, so was still confident of 2:45.

    Wk 10: 10k no look at watch tempo (6:18); long run planned 10m easy, 10m MP, 2m 105%, did 8m easy, 10m at 6:26, 3.3 at 6:15. Writing was on the wall here, frustrated with HM race ran too long and too hard all week and the paces during the long run suffered.

    Wk 11: planned 8x1k 103% MP, Recovery 1k 97% MP (couldn't manage to lift the pace every 2nd k, so ended up doing 2 x 3m at 6:45, massive effort for poor run. This was when I knew it was time to back off but it was too late, damage was done); Long run - just 18m easy

    Wk 12: 5,4,3,2,1 at MP off 2mins (the belated easing up may have had some effect, hit 6:16 pace and it felt good); 15 easy

    Wk 13: 5x1m at lactate threshold off 2mins (went from 5:55 to 5:42); 11m easy

    Wk 14: 2 x 1m at 10k pace off 3mins (5:35. 5:25), marathon just under 2:54, struggled with a bit of leg pain at 10m, struggled to maintain pace at 14m, still on target for 2:48 at 30km out the back door then.

    So it didn't work out well but I think that was my fault rather than due to the sessions not suiting me. Two things, firstly I didn't have a good enough base and didn't do a fundamental stage. Having run under 58 in Ballycotton, I then took the foot off the pedal, only managed 30-40m a week (with no weekend runs, no long runs, new baby) for a few months during the 5k prep phase. Hence ended up running 40s slower than planned for 5k which was right before week 1 above. Secondly, I overcooked the easy days. Ran too far, did 10m most days rather than going shorter and easier. In particular after build up races I did too much the following week, deviated from the plan trying to restore confidence. So I think I was in great shape about 5-6 weeks out but after that it was game over. Saying all of that I thoroughly enjoyed it and am looking forward to the next one where I correct the mistakes made.

    I think you mentioned that you were not looking forward to the specific phase. While I didn't do it correctly I found it relatively easy and very enjoyable training. Because the paces were MP or HMP, no faster there were no lung bursting runs, little 'acidity' and so not overly taxing the way 10k training might be, IMO. Also as a fast twitcher, I previously dreaded the long easy runs, i.e. 20-22 milers at 10-20% slower than MP. On this occasion, I was going out to do a 3x4m interval session and it simply ended up being 22miles, personally I found this a lot more enjoyable.




  • I didn't have a good enough base

    Just to elaborate on this - the effect this had, I think, was that my aerobic threshold was way too low, despite the fact that my lactate turnpoint/threshold might have been okay. So even at relatively slow paces I was using too much glycogen, the cardinal sin of marathon running, hence I only lasted about 14m on the day. That will be the main thing I'll be trying to rectify before next time. Push aerobic threshold as far as I can to the right in base training, then push LT to the right (5k-HM phase training), to allow more room to push aerobic training further to the right again in the marathon specific phase training.




  • Just to elaborate on this - the effect this had, I think, was that my aerobic threshold was way too low, despite the fact that my lactate turnpoint/threshold might have been okay. So even at relatively slow paces I was using too much glycogen, the cardinal sin of marathon running, hence I only lasted about 14m on the day. That will be the main thing I'll be trying to rectify before next time. Push aerobic threshold as far as I can to the right in base training, then push LT to the right (5k-HM phase training), to allow more room to push aerobic training further to the right again in the marathon specific phase training.

    Thanks a million for that! Great points: importance of raising lactic threshold as high as possible early, importance of recovery once the bigger HM and M pace sessions start. Will take all on board.

    I linked a schedule from one of the elite females he trained earlier. The recovery from her half marathon was very substantial. She did one session about 5-6 days after. After this there was 3 days earmarked for recovery: with double regeneration runs every day.

    I guess the session after proved she wasnt recovered. So Canova enforced a 3 day (relatively) complete rest to nip it in the bud. Tjhat made 10 days recivery (albeit with 1 session) I would never rest that long after a HM! Just shows the vital importance of adequate recovery and teh advantage of having a coach whispering in your ear.

    I did the same myself training for a marathon last year. I trained hard before and after a very tough 1 hour race which was 4 weeks before my target. Didnt run again until the marathon. Did OK until mile 12. Lets just say teh second half was an hour slower then the first half.

    It is so difficult to think straight and adjust youre training when youre tired.
    Because of the point you raised i may have a mini module optional in the training in the event of overtraining, a weeks contingency plan that i can switch too if i feel symtoms. With a formula of perhaps having the first session after the reovery module as a half session. eg medium lenght P + D run.




  • interesting thread....cheers.

    have been doing some hill strints recently, read some of tergats posts regarding the same....running 5:05-5:15m/m @15% incline on tredmill, a good addition to the end of easy runs, too early to tell the benifits but its a hard 6x 10sec run. but hopefully it will raise the leg strength.




  • Great thread......

    keep it going,
    some very interesting points been brought up.

    1 that stands out to me but has got very little comment is the regeneration run,
    this is a fundamental part if training but probably the most over looked, as most athlete's focus on the key sessions. (what will make faster/better)

    Imo most people train to hard all the time not just in sessions but easy run's as well.
    I seen a week's training from the great H Geb, one of his runs was 12k in 50 mins, and this is a man who runs 4.30 miles. if some one suggested to a 6 m/ml 10k runner to do some runs @ 8.30 pm, as a % it would be even slower, they would probably tell you wher to go.




  • Ceepo wrote: »
    Great thread......

    keep it going,
    some very interesting points been brought up.

    1 that stands out to me but has got very little comment is the regeneration run,
    this is a fundamental part if training but probably the most over looked, as most athlete's focus on the key sessions. (what will make faster/better)

    Imo most people train to hard all the time not just in sessions but easy run's as well.
    I seen a week's training from the great H Geb, one of his runs was 12k in 50 mins, and this is a man who runs 4.30 miles. if some one suggested to a 6 m/ml 10k runner to do some runs @ 8.30 pm, as a % it would be even slower, they would probably tell you wher to go.

    The regeneration runs seem to play a more promonent part in the specific period where Canova says there is more emphasis on modulation (hard specifi sessions with recovery emphasised in between). He stresses the recovery here as vital. He says the "external load" is more important here. By this he means that the exercise is measured by hitting distances and paces, so the athlete needs to be rested to make these times.

    In the fundamental phase he says that internal loads are stressed. Most of the paces are moderate in this phase with a long run at 20-10% PMP and a briskish 10-12k fast/progression run. So its the acummulated stimulii that makes the change rather than exactly measured external measures.

    As an example an athlete might do 6 by 2k by HM speed early in specific phase. 3 weeks later he does 8 by 2k. The avarage amount of lactic in the blood is the same in both sessions with the lactic at the end being similar.

    That means that the internal load on the body is the same but that the external load has increased.

    So the fundamental period prepares the body to be able to handle the internal load of the specific period sessions. If it can, then the external load can be developed.

    This means that non elite athletes/ and elite athletes would have not dissimilar internal loads to manage in the specific period. The external load would look quite different of course. This might be a reason for estimating the time that these external sessions take the elites and using it to judge the specific sessions (for non-elites). The internal loads will be slightly different (for a 3 hour marathoner the internal load will be similar to an elite racing for 3 hours).

    So the sessions should take longer than the elite runners sessions, but be slightly less intense.




  • Hope I'm not the only person who finds this fascinating yet devilishly difficult to follow.

    Maybe ya have to be good at Maths.




  • Itziger wrote: »
    Hope I'm not the only person who finds this fascinating yet devilishly difficult to follow.

    Maybe ya have to be good at Maths.

    Hope to have a schedule done soon.

    Heres a quick summary:

    Keep in mind the sessions can be cut by up to

    Base/intro phase. Easy, steady runs, circuits, weights, slowly increasing aerobic pace and total kilometers.

    Fundamental phase:

    Moderate paces, building mileage to max, then instensity slowly increased.

    Sessions: Long run between 20% and 10% of PMP. This should be increased to 2:45 mins.

    fast runs: 20-40 mins---- even paced or progressive, getting more intense until they take the form of intervals eg 5 by 2000 at LT pace.

    Varying these gives best results.

    Twice weekly steep uphill sprints.

    Special phase: Sessions get more specific. More regeneration runs between sessions but mileage remains high.

    Long run is run at closer to race pace (87.5%).

    Moderate run retained but extended. eg 55 mins at moderate pace.

    The sessions get longer in number and volume. e.g 4 by 3k, 3 by4k, 3 by 5k etc.

    Some sessions inserted with brisk recovery. e.g 10 x 1k at HM with 1k moderate recovery. (the ave pace will be slower than PMP): to increase intensity the reps are run faster. As the specific phase nears the reps remain constant and the recovery speeds up.

    1 Special block:

    EG am 25k progressive run: PM same: afternoon spent doing continuous pressups in gym (still reading good!)

    Marathon pace segments added to long run and the reps are further extended till we arrive at the Specific phase.

    Mileage reduced
    Athlete should recover between 2 key sessions.

    Moderate session/run retained but extended. eg 60-70 mins at moderate pace.

    Two big sessions.

    Long run at close to PMP or long run by Duration alternated every 10 days.

    Long intervals with fast recoverys

    eg 7 by 3k at M pace with recovery within 10% of M pace.

    2 special blocks:

    eg 10k 10% slower than PMP then 15k at PMP. AM and PM.


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  • Would this be recommended to be used when tackling your first marathon? Or would you want one or two under your belt first




  • ocnoc wrote: »
    Would this be recommended to be used when tackling your first marathon? Or would you want one or two under your belt first

    For you? When? You should try and go as low as possible in your first.

    The schedule is the difficult part.

    The Daniels elite schedule wouldnt be far off the special phase. For a spring marathon you could do the fundamental phase with the national intermediate as target.

    Then start the Daniels elite marathon schedule but swap in Canovas specific sessions towards the end as they are more specific.

    I think the specific training near the end is crucial. You need practice using the right ratio of Fat and Glycogen to get you to the line without exhausting your glycogen. This needs to be trained specifically before race day with several big sessions close to marathon race pace. Daniels has too many sessions at T pace and I pace as the race approaches. This teaches the body to burn the wrong ratio with too much glycogen. This means a slowing in the last 10k. Thats 3-4 mins potentially.




  • ocnoc wrote: »
    Would this be recommended to be used when tackling your first marathon? Or would you want one or two under your belt first

    So the fundamental phase for you might be:


    once per week:

    Long run 105 mins building to 150 mins. 120% to 110% PMP. Closer to 120% initially and speeding up- as fitness allows but at an intensity that allows you to get the weekly mileage in at the appropriate paces.

    once per week:

    Every kind of anaerobic workout you can think of:
    30 mins hard with WU WD
    12k progression run eg: 3k at 3:50, 3k at 3:40, 3k at 3:30, 3k at 3:20
    WU then 6k uphill hard at 5% gradient (on threadmill)
    XC race:
    10k race

    (the body adapts better to many different stimulii rather than repeating the same tried and trusted session during this phase. When we need the body to get good at a specific stimulus very race specific stimulii must be used).

    *****Close to a target XC (national inters) you could ofcourse do 2-3 continous pace runs or other XC races as specific training for that during the Fundamental phase.)

    Aerobic workouts:

    Longer Progression run: eg 30 mins at 4:15----30 at 4: 5
    30 at 3:55

    To make up weekly mileage do doubles if necessary. Try and do most ordinary runs no slower than 10% of current marathon fitness. Maximum mileage for marathon is reached during thsi period.

    Also, do two steep uphill sprint sessions (15%) each week.

    Get mileage up first so do the runs at the slower end of these paces initially. Then increase intensity.

    Thats about it. A good general phase for any type of running, not just marathons.




  • T runner wrote: »
    once per week:
    Every kind of anaerobic workout you can think of:
    12k progression run eg: 3k at 3:50, 3k at 3:40, 3k at 3:30, 3k at 3:20

    Aerobic workouts:
    Longer Progression run: eg 30 mins at 4:15----30 at 4:05
    30 at 3:55

    Those progression runs look delightfully painful.




  • ocnoc wrote: »
    Those progression runs look delightfully painful.

    That 12k one might be for closer to the end of that phase when getting very fit. The 3:20 would be 10k race pace. (33:20)

    Earlier you could attempt

    3k at 4, 3k at 3:50, 3k at 3:40, 3k at 3:30 Its better to have the fastest part slower than 10k race pace than faster.

    I also forgot that running with good efficiency during all running in this phase is vital.

    Strides and reps. Nothing heavy. 200s fast controlled with good form with a slow 200 jog recovery. and/or strides 1-2 a week

    Helps you to keep form good when general fatigue sets in during this phase.
    Its actually hard to do a high volume of moderate running without it. And if you are doing big mileage with good form, it can only be a huge boost to your running.




  • Picked this up off letsrun. Recent interview with the man himself who talks about the differences in his training since his publication for the IAAF in 99 and talks about this years marathon performances:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WObrtaR9D3s&feature=youtu.be




  • ecoli wrote: »
    Picked this up off letsrun. Recent interview with the man himself who talks about the differences in his training since his publication for the IAAF in 99 and talks about this years marathon performances:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WObrtaR9D3s&feature=youtu.be


    Thanks Ecoli, thats a great interview. The main differences seems to be that thay now optimise lactate as a fuel source and the extension of specific intense training in the final specific period which was lacking. This and the advent of young runners to the marathon has meant a general drop in 2 mins since 2003 amongst the most elite times.

    The session which produces lactate and teaches the body to

    clear it is described in the first post of this Lets Run thread by Canova.

    The session is up to 20k and alternates 1 Kms at AnT pace (current HM pace for elites) with a KM at less than AerobicT (less than 2 mmol of lactic for most athletes).
    The lactate is produced during teh fast Km and cleared and some of it used as energy during the slow Km. The recovery pace seems to be 1.19 times slower than AnT pace in Canovas example. The strategy is to first increase the AnT pace while holding recovery pace constant. Then increasing recovery pace holding AnT pace constant. In the last month before the marathon the speed of the fast Km is slighly reduced and the recovery is further increased making the average Marathon race pace and if you could measure lactate it would be around 2 mmol for elites at this pace which is sustaineable for a marathon. This pace would also be only 5% slower than HM pace, being 9-10% slower at the onset of training.

    He preicts that if you can adapt training to reduce the difference between HM and M pace (AnT and AT) to 3% then a 26:20 10k man could run under 2 hrs in good conditions.

    For a 2:45 runner for example AnT will correspond more closely to roughly 10-11 mile race pace so the divergence in pace would be greater between fast and slow Kms. Also less lactate would be produced at Marathon race pace (a 2:45 woman/man cant sustain 2mmol of lactate throughout a marathon, they will run out of Glycogen after 2 hours just like the 2 hr runners).
    However they will use a good proportion of what the elites use, bringing the AT as close as possible to AnT is obviously hugely desireable and the session is very specific as its average speed is converging towards marathon race pace.

    Also from the interview:

    Best marathon performances of 2011:

    Geoffrey Mutai: Both New York, and Boston
    Wilson Kipsang: Frankfurt : 2:03:42 4 seconds off Makaus berlin run, but wet conditions caused a slight loss of tractrion and a twisty last Km meant he couldnt see the time vehicle.
    Patrick Makau: WR Berlin 2:03:38 only fourth best performance!

    Top men for 2012:

    1.Geoffrey Mutai:
    2. Wilson Kipsang; Moses Mosop (retained world championship)
    3. Patrick Makau
    4. Abel Kirui: no Kenyan kid on the block
    5. Emmanual Mutai: London winner

    He also predicts a sub 2:03 in 2012, if its not set in Spring maybe then by someone who doesnt qualify for Olympics (wont be set at Olympics).

    And he claims the current cycle of Kenyan dominance over Ethiopia in the marathon is due to superior training.




  • T runner wrote: »
    Top men for 2012:

    1.Geoffrey Mutai:
    2. Wilson Kipsang; Moses Mosop (retained world championship)3. Patrick Makau
    4. Abel Kirui: new Kenyan kid on the block5. Emmanual Mutai: London winner

    He also predicts a sub 2:03 in 2012, if its not set in Spring maybe then by someone who doesnt qualify for Olympics (wont be set at Olympics).

    And Kenyan dominance over Ethiopia due to superior training.

    Think these are mixed up Kirui is the 2 time WC while Mosop debuted in Boston this year (2.03.06) as well as breaking the 25k and 30k World Record in Oregon and Breaking Wanjiru's Chicago Course record on way to his first major win




  • ecoli wrote: »
    Think these are mixed up Kirui is the 2 time WC while Mosop debuted in Boston this year (2.03.06) as well as breaking the 25k and 30k World Record in Oregon and Breaking Wanjiru's Chicago Course record on way to his first major win

    Sorry, about that. Got their records mixed up. The order is right though with Canova predicting Mosop and Kipsang performing ahead of Makau and Kirui for 2012.

    Edit: Mosop an 2:03:06 behind G Mutai's 2:03:02


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  • Some real gold here:

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4290090&page=35

    Canova chimes in around page 34 and on page 36 (I think) explains specifically the differences between marathon training now and 30 years ago. Says that Spedding would have run 2mins faster (2:07) with today's more specific training. Interestingly mentions that amateurs need to still train 'the old way' (meaning I suppose they wouldn't be able to tolerate the training).

    Says also that Mosop would have run faster if it wasn't for the fact that he had a problem with a tendon, so had to do a long warm up before the marathon - 40mins with 20mins hard, and so used up some glycogen before the start line :)


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