Water Mains Through Site

Paul4As

A bit of a long winded story but here goes:
My wife and I were given land by my father-in-law.
We hope to build on the land next year and so have had a few architects out to view the site etc.
One issue I have is there could possibly be a water mains through our site....well there is a very high chance that there is.
The mains was put in about 30 odd years ago when my father-in-law was in England. My father-in-law's father, from what I am led to believe, had no say in the matter as it is used to service a Group Water Scheme. This main serves my father-in-law and 2 other houses we guess.
Apparently 30 years ago the layer of mains did not always follow roads, instead taking the shortest root in laying the mains to save money, often through fields.
My brother-in-law and father-in-law a few years ago tried to source maps from Mayo County Council and the Group Water Scheme...no one seems to have one.
My question is who is reponsible for locating the mains on my land?...and who pays to get them redirected?
I am looking for someone who has encountered a similar scenario as the one I have mentioned above.
The Architect who was out on Saturday past gave a rough guess of about 4k to redirect the mains...which isn't a lot of money in the overall size of the cost of building a house....but it is money which could be better spent on other things.

BryanF

Paul4As wrote: »

A bit of a long winded story but here goes:
My wife and I were given land by my father-in-law.
We hope to build on the land next year and so have had a few architects out to view the site etc.
One issue I have is there could possibly be a water mains through our site....well there is a very high chance that there is.
The mains was put in about 30 odd years ago when my father-in-law was in England. My father-in-law's father, from what I am led to believe, had no say in the matter as it is used to service a Group Water Scheme. This main serves my father-in-law and 2 other houses we guess.
Apparently 30 years ago the layer of mains did not always follow roads, instead taking the shortest root in laying the mains to save money, often through fields.
My brother-in-law and father-in-law a few years ago tried to source maps from Mayo County Council and the Group Water Scheme...no one seems to have one.
My question is who is reponsible for locating the mains on my land?...and who pays to get them redirected?
I am looking for someone who has encountered a similar scenario as the one I have mentioned above.
The Architect who was out on Saturday past gave a rough guess of about 4k to redirect the mains...which isn't a lot of money in the overall size of the cost of building a house....but it is money which could be better spent on other things.

when you say 'water main' i wonder what size of a pipe were talking about if its only serving three homes?
i would expect that much of the expense (following the locating of the pipe + plumber costs) is the digging up and digging to relay the pipe, so maybe there are savings to be made in this area.
As regards who's problem/responsibility it is to pay for it, I think you may find it difficult to charge anyone else, for the cost of moving a pipe to suit you:)

DOCARCH

You need to find out if the water main is public or private.

If it is a public water main (i.e. Mayo C.C. 'own' the pipe) then you are not allowed build within 3 metres of the pipe, either side, so in effect you would have a 6m wide band on the site you cannot build on. If is public and if it is in the way of your proposed devleopment you will obvioulsy need to discuss options regarding reclocation, etc., with the Council. If they did agree to move it I'm sure they would want to do the work (at your expense).

If it is a private water main you just need to the permission of those the main serves to relocate it (again, at your expense I would suggest).

Paul4As

If only it was serving those 3 homes!:) I think there are another 10 houses spread out over about a half a mile....including some farms.
From working a bit in Northern Ireland in construction it was easy to get maps of the water network from NI Water...even for sites in the countryside. So no one having a map is strange.
From the point of principle...I can not see how someone should be expected to pay for the redirection of a pipe which was put through their land without permission. Yes it serves my father-in-law's...but a mains along the road would equally have served my father-in-law's.
With regards savings...a plumber would usually just tee-off from the mains to the property...simple trenching and pipe-laying...we could possible have to find the mains to begin with...trench a new mains around the boundary of our site and also redirect feeds to another 3 houses. :eek:
Then we will probably have to pay a water connection fee as well of a grand or so.
It all adds up. The missus will probably have to forget about her old style kitchen with island!:D

Avns1s

If it's a Group Water Scheme, the landowner would have had every say and would have had to sign a wayleave form to allow it, even back then.

The pipelayer would also not have the discretion to decide the route of the pipe, this would have been decided by an engineer, who would have picked the shortest route to save money.

I would also think that someone would have the maps of the route the pipe was supposed to have taken and you should try and find who the current directors / trustees of the scheme are and ask them.

You should also try and find out what sort of pipe it is. Probably 1" if it's serving 3 houses. 1" pipe is not that expensive and I would suggest approaching the trustees / directors with a proposal that you will relay the pipe when site works start under their supervision. Unless its a great distance, I wouldn't see the whole job costing more than €1000.

Paul4As

Avns1s wrote: »

If it's a Group Water Scheme, the landowner would have had every say and would have had to sign a wayleave form to allow it, even back then.

The pipelayer would also not have the discretion to decide the route of the pipe, this would have been decided by an engineer, who would have picked the shortest route to save money.

I would also think that someone would have the maps of the route the pipe was supposed to have taken and you should try and find who the current directors / trustees of the scheme are and ask them.

You should also try and find out what sort of pipe it is. Probably 1" if it's serving 3 houses. 1" pipe is not that expensive and I would suggest approaching the trustees / directors with a proposal that you will relay the pipe when site works start under their supervision. Unless its a great distance, I wouldn't see the whole job costing more than €1000.

My father-in-law said his father didn't sign anything.
My brother-in-law travelled down to Dublin a few years back to try to get a map or copy of a wayleave without success.
Am speaking to my brother-in-law this evening about what he has done so far.
I know he has also attempted the route of the Trustees of The Water Group Scheme for maps also without success. From what I hear they were never the best organised.
I understand many Group Water Schemes are being taken over by the Council...and the plan was always with this Group Water Scheme to get the mains pipe moved out on to the main road. They just never had the money or the drive as it never affected any of them.
For all I know the mains may not interfere with the footprint of my proposed house....nor the tee-offs to the three other properties.
It is just not knowing where the pipework is that bugs me.
Plus if I did have to reroute...I would be paying money to upgrade the Group Scheme's pipework (which has leaks)...I would be mapping about 60 metres of their pipework for them too. Then they would probably expect me to pay them a grand to connect....if that is they give me permission!

mickdw

I know here where I live, there i a group scheme where the pipes run through all the fields. The land owners signed at the beginning to agree to the group scheme but tbh the contractor then dod whatthey wished to save money. Of course it shouldnt have been like this but in those times, people were pretty happy to be getting a water supply and important things such as mapping of the constructed pipeline were forgotten.

It will be up to you to relocate the pipe if its a problem. It might be something like a 2" main. This would be a roll of pipe and would be very simple and of little cost to relocate. Of course some group schemes will take the piss and insist on doing it themselves at inflated cost.

Avns1s

Paul4As wrote: »

My father-in-law said his father didn't sign anything.
My brother-in-law travelled down to Dublin a few years back to try to get a map or copy of a wayleave without success.
Am speaking to my brother-in-law this evening about what he has done so far.
I know he has also attempted the route of the Trustees of The Water Group Scheme for maps also without success. From what I hear they were never the best organised.
I understand many Group Water Schemes are being taken over by the Council...and the plan was always with this Group Water Scheme to get the mains pipe moved out on to the main road. They just never had the money or the drive as it never affected any of them.
For all I know the mains may not interfere with the footprint of my proposed house....nor the tee-offs to the three other properties.
It is just not knowing where the pipework is that bugs me.
Plus if I did have to reroute...I would be paying money to upgrade the Group Scheme's pipework (which has leaks)...I would be mapping about 60 metres of their pipework for them too. Then they would probably expect me to pay them a grand to connect....if that is they give me permission!

If there is no wayleave, then they definitely weren't the most organised but to be honest, I would think it unlikely that there wasn't permission given. My own father was involved in something similar over 30 years ago and I can still remember the toils they had getting wayleaves signed by some people.

It is possible that the trustees / directors have changed over the years and that the maps are mislaid, but there would have been maps. You may also find signs of where the main went through fences that would give you the line of it.

In fairness in respect to the moving of the current mains, there was no immediate prospect of a house being built when the scheme was put in place all those years ago. In any case, I don't see it as a big deal to re-route 60 metres of pipe around your site. The number of leaks you will be fixing for them in a 60metre run would not be significant, I would have thought.

And yes, you will have to pay a connection fee but only if you want water from the Group Scheme. You can decide yourself if it's value for the connection fee and in this regard, I'd say you'll be lucky to get away with €1000.

My advice to you is to approach the current scheme directors with the right attitude, i.e. not to be whinging and complaining about who had right to do what all those years ago, explain your case, offer to do the work under their supervision and you might get a lot of co-operation. Approach it the otehr way and you might well find it will cost you the €4000 you mentioned in your OP and a connection fee on top of it if you want water. Best of luck with it.

Paul4As

Avns1s wrote: »

My advice to you is to approach the current scheme directors with the right attitude, i.e. not to be whinging and complaining about who had right to do what all those years ago, explain your case, offer to do the work under their supervision and you might get a lot of co-operation. Approach it the otehr way and you might well find it will cost you the €4000 you mentioned in your OP and a connection fee on top of it if you want water. Best of luck with it.

I have a concern approaching the Group Water Scheme Trustees...if they were a well organised group though I wouldn't hesitate.
They did offer to move the mains water from the middle of another field belonging to my father-in-law about 2 years ago...to the boundary with 4 properties supplied with water from the mains in the field...they were using "one man and his dog" so to speak....a guy with a digger.
Luckily my father-in-law showed the paperwork he was offered to sign for the works to be completed to his solicitor.
The Group had no form of insurances for the work and if something had went wrong...an injury to the worker or with the basic shifting of the pipe...my father-in-law would've been liable to fines he would be still paying from his death bed.
My father-in-law heard no sensible reply when he asked for the work to be carried out "professionally"...other than a sort of "we are doing you a favour what do you need insurances for?" from the Group.
I also have the concern that if the council take over the Group Water Scheme in a few years time...I could be paying out more money to contribute and connect to that and whatever new mains they put in.