The Simpsons

marty1985

The core of religion is not belief, but rather, a commitment to socially constructive behavior.

This view came from an anthropologist in a study of religion and it got me thinking, about The Simpsons.

One of the best episodes starts with Homer deciding to skip going to church. The rest of the family go, and while they shiver through a rambling sermon in the freezing church, Homer dances in his underwear a la Tom Cruise, watches football and finds a penny. So he decides to never go to church again.

Marge prays for him, and later Homer has a dream where he meets God (who happens to have 5 fingers).

God:

“Thou hast forsaken my church!”

Homer:

“I’m not a bad guy... I work hard... I love my kids... so why should I spend my Sunday hearing about how I’m going to hell?”

I think this is actually a very serious question they raise here, and one we've all thought about. Brilliantly, God is won over by Homer's logic, but I guess this is Homer's dream after all.

Enlightened, he tells the kids the next time they prepare for church:

“Let me tell you about another wicked guy... he had long hair and some wild ideas, and he didn’t always do what other people thought was right and his name was... I forget... but my point is... I forget that too... Marge, you know who I’m talking about... he used to drive that blue car.”

Just when you think he might be talking about John the Baptist or Jesus. The great thing about Homer is he is one of us. He is linked culturally to biblical tradition but looks elsewhere to get meaning, and uses this cultural reference point to justify his lifestyle.

A thread on this forum here recently brought up the issue of whether Christians should have religion as a factor in choosing a partner.

Marge:

“I have a responsibility to raise these children right and unless you change I’ll have tell them that their father is... wicked... don’t make me choose between my man and my God because you just can’t win.”

Here one of them is dedicated to God to the point of sacrificing her own well being, and the other is willing to sacrifice his family and love for a chance to live according to his own commitment-free religion, so you'd wonder if their marriage would last without common ground on this issue.

Everyone tries to persuade him in different ways but fail. He tells Lisa he will recant on his deathbed, he escapes the Flanders in a brilliant spoof car chase. More scenes highlight the benefits he gets from his new approach to religion (getting time off work for the Feast of Maximum Occupancy). These scenes are structured in a way to highlight his confidence in his decision to reject religion, and he delivers a telling line that is common among atheists.

"Everyone else in the world is stupid except me."

Reverend Lovejoy gives a sermon dealing with pride and lack of a moral code. Meanwhile Homer, having offended most major world religions (Apu: "Please do not offer my god a peanut.") and declared himself smarter than everyone else, falls asleep with a cigar in his mouth, triggering a fire. The volunteer fire department come to the rescue, cleverly representing Hinduism (Apu), Judaism (Krusty - rescuing the cat as it clings to his face) and Christianity (Flanders), and save him without reservation or bitterness.

“I was rude to everyone of you... and you saved my life,” he says, recognizing that their faith motivated them to help him.

Here, each of these religions persuades Homer by validating the essence of their faith, socially constructive behaviour.

Next week, Homer is back in church, sleeping and dreaming of God again, and this time God has four fingers, just like Homer. The result seems to be that religion is useful and good for motivating caring behavior, but still dull enough to put you to sleep.

I think this episode highlights the role religion actually plays in people's lives. Nobody comes out of Mass transformed, religion is just something we do, we just absorb our cultural symbols and images and try to use it to enrich our lives, and doctrines and beliefs fall second to socially constructive behavior.

For Homer, church is boring and we should use that time for more pleasurable things. For Rev Lovejoy, it's a requirement that we have to do to avoid hell. The actual sensible position is represented by Marge, it's something to do that helps us to live good lives. The oppositions and tensions between these viewpoints give us different positions for viewing the episode, a brilliant idea by the writers.

Lovejoy changes too. He goes from the fire and brimstone beliefs, to embracing a more tolerant and humane version of religious faith. Homer repents of his misanthropy, but of course we know he'll be back to normal soon, this being a cartoon.

The Simpsons cuts everyone down to size. No sacred cows. Ned's prayer for divine intervention in guiding Homer safely to the mattress on the ground is rewarded with Homer doing a spectacular backflip and smashing back into the house through the window. Similarly, Homer's observation that God didn't save Ned's house is followed by a miraculous rain cloud over Ned's house and a rainbow.

So can religion be a good thing? Yes, if it makes people more humane and concerned for other people.

That's my sermon for you all today, so as God said to Homer, now if you'll excuse me, I have to appear on a tortilla in Mexico.

lmaopml

Doh!

That was a good episode....It made me laugh.




...but it IS just a cartoon.

marty1985

Oh, Marge, cartoons don't have any deep meaning. They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh.

PDN

I liked the episode where Homer joined a religious cult.

Rev Lovejoy said from his pulpit: "This new so-called religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now let’s say the Lord’s Prayer 40 times but first let’s pass the collection plate."

marty1985

I thought this forum had been crying out for something different.

The great thing about the show is that atheist groups have complained of its pro-religion stance, and evangelical Christian groups have denounced it as well.

lmaopml

marty1985 wrote: »

I thought this forum had been crying out for something different.

The great thing about the show is that atheist groups have complained of its pro-religion stance, and evangelical Christian groups have denounced it as well.

That's true Marty. I like the Simpsons - I think it's healthy too to be able to laugh at yourself once in a while...and put the show in context.

I remember the episode with the song, 'See my Vest' sang by Monty Burns.......I loved that one.

Newsite

lmaopml wrote: »

That's true Marty. I like the Simpsons - I think it's healthy too to be able to laugh at yourself once in a while...and put the show in context.

I remember the episode with the song, 'See my Vest' sang by Monty Burns.......I loved that one.

Ha classic episode!

wolfsbane

marty1985 wrote: »

So can religion be a good thing? Yes, if it makes people more humane and concerned for other people.

Can can atheism be a good thing? Yes, if it makes people more humane and concerned for other people. But that too is a very short-term 'good'. Like over-dosing on morphine to stop the pain. Works brilliantly for a time - then you die.

False religion and atheism lead to eternal death. The temporary merits of any of them is nothing in the big picture.

The assumption you make is that no religion is a true, correct understanding of reality. If that were the case, there is no truly long-term good, and short-term good is all we can hope to get.

But if Christianity is true, it offers an eternity of good for those who get right with God. That's all that ultimately matters. Christians can happily do good in this life even when they suffer persecution, knowing that their eternal happiness is guaranteed.

*******************************************************************
2 Corinthians 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

raah!

marty1985 wrote: »

The core of religion is not belief, but rather, a commitment to socially constructive behavior.
...
Here, each of these religions persuades Homer by validating the essence of their faith, socially constructive behaviour.

That was a very good episode indeed, infinitely better than some of the "Simpsons" we have on today.

Anyway, I think that most religious people would disagree with the core of religion being dedication to socially constructive behaviour.

I think it is dedication to God, through that dedication to Good, and from there you get a dedication to socially constructive behaviour. Things like meaning or purpose I think take the front row to "socially constructive behaviour". For example it would be only Good socially constructive behaviour that a christian would be interested in.

This view is more 'The usefulness of religion' from an atheistic perspective. This I think is best captured by Napoleon:

"Religion keeps the poor from murdering the rich"

And we know from a religious perspective that there is much more to religion than this, because Hermits, who have very little time or inclination to engage in "socially constructive behaviour" are considered very holy. And I would agree on that count.

Both of these things can be found in Tolstoy's works, which are good works like the simpsons. Napoleon is in 'War and Peace', and hermits abound in his short works, particularly 'Father Sergius', and more obviously 'The three hermits'.

Benny_Cake

Ah,so many memories! Prayer - Homer Simpson style:

"Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. Thy will be done".

The treatment of religion in the Simpsons was clever and funny during the glory days of the show, sadly the show is long past it's best at this stage.

The Quadratic Equation

Shows you how far the various Irish Churches and Bishops have failed in their responsibilities, when people now consider the guidance and advice given by an American Homer Simpson cartoon is of more value.

Manach

Well, it was in it's classic period quite funny. My favourite quote being
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman!"

alex73

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

Newsite

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Ah,so many memories! Prayer - Homer Simpson style:

"Dear Lord: The gods have been good to me. For the first time in my life, everything is absolutely perfect just the way it is. So here's the deal: You freeze everything the way it is, and I won't ask for anything more. If that is OK, please give me absolutely no sign. OK, deal. In gratitude, I present you this offering of cookies and milk. If you want me to eat them for you, give me no sign. Thy will be done".

The treatment of religion in the Simpsons was clever and funny during the glory days of the show, sadly the show is long past it's best at this stage.

It had its glory days alright, it's definitely had its day though I reckon.

Ghost Buster

Bah. The Simpsons is just a cartoon. Worse still it has several writers, each episode undergoes several rewrites and it gets translated into many languages. This results in a severe lack of merit......
Oh.;)

Robert McGrath

alex73 wrote: »

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

Are you serious or being sarcastic?

And if you are serious about not letting your kids watch the show, do you watch it yourself?

The Quadratic Equation

alex73 wrote: »

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

It's pure muck all right. Like most things on television now.

raah!

Matt Groening is actually not writing for them anymore, he left because it was turning to crap when he was getting less and less control over the production. Now it's a team of marketing specialists or something that write it :P

alex73

Robert McGrath wrote: »

Are you serious or being sarcastic?

And if you are serious about not letting your kids watch the show, do you watch it yourself?

No. I can't stand it.

tommy2bad

alex73 wrote: »

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

Wow now thats child abuses.
The Simsons never took sides it was an equal opportunities offender.

It's pure muck all right. Like most things on television now.

So what is good TV to watch, SpongBob or the West Wing or the Wire or the Sopranos or Buffy
Just realized were in a new golden age of TV, so much good stuff at the moment.

Ghost Buster

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

It's pure muck all right. Like most things on television now.

Grandad. is that you?;)
This has been said since the birth of theatre in Greece and has gone right up through radio, into movies and TV and taking in every genre of music along the way. And it cobblers. There is always sh1te Tv and good Tv being made at once. same with everything. ....unless your me Grandad....:)

alex73

tommy2bad wrote: »

Wow now thats child abuses.
The Simsons never took sides it was an equal opportunities offender.

Why, the show has a 12 rating, my kids are under 12...

Letting them watch a show which is not rated for them is abuse.

The Quadratic Equation

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Grandad. is that you?;)
This has been said since the birth of theatre in Greece and has gone right up through radio, into movies and TV and taking in every genre of music along the way. And it cobblers. There is always sh1te Tv and good Tv being made at once. same with everything. ....unless your me Grandad....:)

You may enjoy the muck all you like.

I am also entitled to my opinion and I'm afraid your ad hominem arguments don't work on me.

PseudoFamous

alex73 wrote: »

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

Every show does, some more subtly than others. But every show is biased, ideologically or otherwise. Nothing can truly be unbiased, so I'm not sure what your point is in saying that.

irishh_bob

alex73 wrote: »

I never let my kids what the show. Total and utter nonsense. When a show takes ideological "Sides"then its biased.

the simpsons is satirical , its not in anyway idealogical

Ghost Buster

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

You may enjoy the muck all you like.

I am also entitled to my opinion and I'm afraid your ad hominem arguments don't work on me.

No. I dont enjoy the muck. Thats my very point. There is always muck alongside the good stuff. I watch the good stuff.
Are you honestly saying that there is absolutely no good Tv being made today.? really?

tommy2bad

I am also entitled to my opinion

Worst. Argument. Ever.

marty1985

Are we really arguing about The Simpsons now?

I was only trying to lighten the mood here a little bit. At its peak, the show was rich in satire and highly intelligent and literate. It is both funny enough and deep enough, at its best, to warrant attention. If anyone would rather write about the Waltons...

I was just looking at the role religion plays in the lives of the average person. I'm beginning to think some people here are not average people. Homer is a Christian too, even if he put it this way when asked his religion: "You know, the one with all the well-meaning rules that don't work in real life. Uh, Christianity."

Shows you how far the various Irish Churches and Bishops have failed in their responsibilities, when people now consider the guidance and advice given by an American Homer Simpson cartoon is of more value.

Maybe Homer’s constant confusion over religion and how, or why, to approach it provides an accurate mirror to the majority of people.

Don't underestimate the Simpsons. President Bush Snr got into an argument with the Simpsons, and lost. When he said America needed more families like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons, the writers had Bart reply "Hey, we're just like the Waltons, we're praying for an end to the depression too."

The Quadratic Equation

Ghost Buster wrote: »

No. I dont enjoy the muck. Thats my very point. There is always muck alongside the good stuff. I watch the good stuff.
Are you honestly saying that there is absolutely no good Tv being made today.? really?

I invite you to read the post again, carefully this time, in particular the word "most", then look up the word "most", then look up the word "all", and then study the difference.

The Quadratic Equation

tommy2bad wrote: »

Worst. Argument. Ever.

In. Your. Opinion.

ArtSmart

I would prefer if this thread was called
Teaching (or discussing) Christianity through The Simpsons.

That way, my time would not be so badly wasted.

Ghost Buster

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I invite you to read the post again, carefully this time, in particular the word "most", then look up the word "most", then look up the word "all", and then study the difference.

And i invite you to realise that this has been said generation after generation after generation. Can it be that the majority of music, Tv etc is always crap or perhaps do folk just get grumpy?
The generation gap ladies and gentlemen. its horrible.

The Quadratic Equation

Ghost Buster wrote: »

And i invite you to realise that this has been said generation after generation after generation. Can it be that the majority of music, Tv etc is always crap or perhaps do folk just get grumpy?
The generation gap ladies and gentlemen. its horrible.

I don't go in for either ageism or fatalism myself. I prefer to deal with the here and now. That's why, if you read my origional post, you'll also see the word "now". Might be worth looking up the meaning of that word as well if you're finding the meaning tricky.

Fanny Cradock

marty1985 wrote: »

The core of religion is not belief, but rather, a commitment to socially constructive behavior.

I dunno...

I'm not exactly sure how you can identify what lies at the "core" of religion (whatever the core means) because religion means different things to different people.

Besides this, the above statement is in contradiction with itself. Socially constructive behaviour is, I contend, meaningless without grounding in some sort of belief. For example, that socially constructive behaviour is desirable.

Finally, I can't help but assume that in pigeon-holing religion the anthropologist in question has ignored the central truth claims each religion makes, not to mention the obvious fact that many people really believe in doctrines like resurrection, reincarnation and whatever else, in favour of a definition that seemingly doesn't take on board the possibility that the truth claims might actually be true and/ or people might actually sincerely believe them to be true.

You can not adequately or accurately define religion or peoples motivations for practising it in once sentence.

Still, good episode.

Ghost Buster

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

I don't go in for either ageism or fatalism myself. I prefer to deal with the here and now. That's why, if you read my origional post, you'll also see the word "now". Might be worth looking up the meaning of that word as well if you're finding the meaning tricky.

So there was very little worth watching on the box at the time you were writing the post. Have a look now then. The Walking Dead is on, Game of Thrones is just ending and ray mears is on Discovery. Great stuff.

marty1985

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I dunno...

I'm not exactly sure how you can identify what lies at the "core" of religion (whatever the core means) because religion means different things to different people.

Just to put that into context Fanny, the study in question related to religion among primitive peoples, and discussed the cohesiveness of religious groups, and how this aspect of religion is too little appreciated by skeptics who only want to focus on the beliefs and texts: "The theory of religion as it applies to commitment emphasizes the vital importance of religion to most human communities and the fundamental role that religion plays in the lives of most human beings. The theory also suggests that the core of religion is not belief (which most people are too prone to criticize), but rather, commitment to socially constructive behavior." I agree with you on the inadequacy of one sentence to define religion at all, and the anthropologist in question would too. He wasn't trying to pigeon-hole religion, but rather stop people from pigeon-holing it to be something entirely based on beliefs and texts. It wasn't an attempt to be glib, just something that got me thinking. It is a leap from there to The Simpsons, but I had to use something.

tommy2bad

Besides this, the above statement is in contradiction with itself. Socially constructive behaviour is, I contend, meaningless without grounding in some sort of belief. For example, that socially constructive behaviour is desirable.

Which misses the point, it doesn't matter if people believe in something or not, what matters is the result. The result being socially constructive behavior, which again it doesn't matter if people believe its a good thing or not because socially constructive behavior will self replicate. People didn't invent society it happened and because it has benefits it continued to happen.

Fanny Cradock

tommy2bad wrote: »

Which misses the point, it doesn't matter if people believe in something or not, what matters is the result. The result being socially constructive behavior, which again it doesn't matter if people believe its a good thing or not because socially constructive behavior will self replicate. People didn't invent society it happened and because it has benefits it continued to happen.

And I could equally state that you miss my point. Truth does matter to some of us. Acting on a known falsehood is generally not the way to motivate individuals or groups of people, whereas truth, even the belief that a proposition is true is exactly the type of thing that motivates people.

If we didn't believe that socially constructive behaviour was a good thing then we probably would not peruse it.

tommy2bad

If we didn't believe that socially constructive behaviour was a good thing then we probably would not peruse it.

No you would, you just would not know it. Your belief in some truth motivates you but your end result; eternal life, salvation has no result that can influence the here and now, it just creates the circumstances that allows the socially constructive behavior to happen.
God and belief in Him is one of many beliefs that could achieve the same result, the result doesn't prove the existence of god just the existence of belief in god.
(small g because it needn't be a monotheist god)
All this from a Simsons episode who wouda thunk it?

prinz

The Simpsons when it was at its best walked a very fine line between satire and irreverance and a certain level of respect. They pulled it off quite well I think, which is not often the case.

dave3004

I've had to study countless Simpsons episodes on a higher conceptual level. if you break it down to the values/dimemmas displayed it is a very interesting and well-written programme which we could debate on for years.

Regarding religion........Kelly Jones said it best.

Find yourself a god.
Believe in which one you want.
Because they love you all the same
They just go by different names.

Fanny Cradock

tommy2bad wrote: »

No you would, you just would not know it. Your belief in some truth motivates you but your end result; eternal life, salvation has no result that can influence the here and now, it just creates the circumstances that allows the socially constructive behavior to happen.
God and belief in Him is one of many beliefs that could achieve the same result, the result doesn't prove the existence of god just the existence of belief in god.
(small g because it needn't be a monotheist god)
All this from a Simsons episode who wouda thunk it?

I'm not talking about beliefs that lead to social cohesion. Nor am I talking about circumstances that indirectly arise from certain beliefs that lead to social cohesion. I've not commented on either. And I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.

What I am saying is that any talk of commitment to socially constructive behaviour is in and of itself a statement that is based upon a belief that socially constructive behaviour is a good thing.

Fanny Cradock

marty1985 wrote: »

Just to put that into context Fanny, the study in question related to religion among primitive peoples, and discussed the cohesiveness of religious groups, and how this aspect of religion is too little appreciated by skeptics who only want to focus on the beliefs and texts: "The theory of religion as it applies to commitment emphasizes the vital importance of religion to most human communities and the fundamental role that religion plays in the lives of most human beings. The theory also suggests that the core of religion is not belief (which most people are too prone to criticize), but rather, commitment to socially constructive behavior." I agree with you on the inadequacy of one sentence to define religion at all, and the anthropologist in question would too. He wasn't trying to pigeon-hole religion, but rather stop people from pigeon-holing it to be something entirely based on beliefs and texts. It wasn't an attempt to be glib, just something that got me thinking. It is a leap from there to The Simpsons, but I had to use something.

Perhaps context is everything!

tommy2bad

What I am saying is that any talk of commitment to socially constructive behaviour is in and of itself a statement that is based upon a belief that socially constructive behaviour is a good thing.

Ahhh I get you now.