Modulating condensing oil boilers in household size

heinbloed

Here a short list of modulating condensing oil boilers:

http://pdf.broetje.de/english/Brochure_NovoCondens_SOB.pdf
18-26kW

http://www.weishaupt.de/mainProdukte/produkteOELBW/produkte_wtc_ow/index_html/en/view
5-15 kW


http://www.viessmann.de/de/ein-_zweifamilienhaus/produkte/Oel-Brennwertkessel/Vitoladens_300-W.html
12.9-23.5 kW

http://www.oertli.de/produkte/produkt_palette/oel_brennwert/stand_purn_150_f_condens_16_33kw/purn_150_f_condens

in three sizes, PURN 153 (-F)* Condens: 16-21 kW
PURN 154 (-F)* Condens: 21-27 kW
PURN 155 (-F)* Condens: 27-33 kW

http://www.oertli.de/produkte/produkt_palette/oel_brennwert/stand_curn_150_f_condens_16_27kw
16-27 kW

http://www.ernst-hofmann.ch/pdf/thermmix.pdf
5-15 kW
(The thermmix seems to be a re-branding of the Weishaupt Thermo Condens WTC O , s.a., check this out)

http://www.elco.de/produkte/straton.html
Straton 17 11-18 kW
Straton 21 14-22 kW
Straton 26 19-26 kW
Straton 30 19-30 kW






The warmflow boilers aren't modulating according to DGOBS. So I've crossed them out.
Thanks.







Since knowledge of the Irish boiler installers should be kept up to date please ad more.
Check out for the correct data concerning output, dimensions etc..

.

heinbloed

Gary71:
If you have nothing to ad to this list of modulating condensing oil boilers then don't post in this thread.

We can discuss the intellectual problems of the Anglican oil boiler industry when it comes to new challenges in a different thread.
Your link to Bosch is interesting enough though.

DGOBS

Heinbloed the moderator!

You have been spanked Gary

KoolKid

@ Heinbloed . No Back seat modding .
Back on topic please everyone.

DGOBS

Anywhere that has price listings for these?
(and any with english instruction/specification manuals, there must be, if not they wouldn't qualify for a CE mark and should not be fitted here)

Last one, warmflow, isn't modulating

And as far as I can tell the Viessmann isn't condensing (just modulating)

heinbloed

Anywhere that has price listings for these?....

Ask the manufacturers for one, they might have a trader list. Try ebay as well to get an overview, official price lists are for politics.

....(and any with english instruction/specification manuals, there must be, if not they wouldn't qualify for a CE mark and should not be fitted here)

Never heard about this. Any link, source of information? Again: ask the manufacturers, traders.
The EU manual has to be in the local language where the client buys the product, where it is traded, or in a major EU language as far as I know, English is not demanded for an CE mark. German is the major EU language.
I think Viessmann is selling in the UK and the USA as well, try these.

Last one, warmflow, isn't modulating

Maybe not fully modulating, but stepwise modulating ?


The term 'modulating' is often wrongly interpretet.


Like the Viessmann Vitoladens condensing boiler. It works in 2 steps, first the lower output and then the higher output.
It is a condensing boiler, the data sheet says so. See

http://www.viessmann.de/etc/medialib/internet-global/pdf_documents/pdf-datenblaetter-2009.Par.99513.File.File.tmp/DB-5368795_05-2011.pdf

on page 3,first column, under "Nennwaermeleistung"

TV/TR = 50/30 °C
TV/TR = 80/60 °C

TV stands for Temperaturvorlauf ( Engl. Flow ),
TR stands for Temperaturruecklauf ( Engl. Return )

as well as in the same column 3rd from bottom Kondenswasseranschluss , the English term for this is condensate water connection


Any more to be put onto the list?

JohnnieK

Please have a look at the link Re Language for CE Mark.
Regarding technical documents it is envisaged that the end user has a good knowledge of English or another EU Language. If there is a user manual involved then the language of the Eu country of destination has to be printed.

http://www.net-translators.com/knowledge-center/articles/language-requirements-in-europe

DGOBS

Stepwise modulating?
You mean rangeable, all boilers have a working range.

Re Viessmann, how can a cast iron boiler be a condensing appliance, the condensate would rot the appliance over a sort period? I have never seen a cast iron condensing appliance
Your link is for a GAS boiler, not oil

A modulating appliance would 'modulate' to meet the heating requirement, a rangeable appliance would be a set input/output setup by the commissioning technician

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

. German is the major EU language.

Which would be great if we all spoke German:)

DGOBS wrote: »

Your link is for a GAS boiler, not oil

VITOLADENS 300-W Öl-Brennwert-Wandgerät 12,9 bis 23,5 kW:
Vitoladens 300-W, oil-fired wall-mounted unit 12.9 to 23.5 kW

heinbloed wrote: »

The term 'modulating' is often wrongly interpretet.

Not by boiler service engineers, it would be a basic requirement to understand what's in front of you.

DGOBS

Wow, Gary impressed by your German........just looks like a gas boiler!
Must be a blue flame burner?

All I could find on Precision website was cast iron boilers?

Re speaking German, think having the dutchmark here has been quite enough thanks!!!

Ich bin Ihnen sehr dankbar:D

heinbloed

The Viessmann Vitolatodens IS an oil boiler.

Quote from the manual ( http://www.viessmann.de/etc/medialib/internet-global/pdf_documents/pdf-datenblaetter-2009.Par.99513.File.File.tmp/DB-5368795_05-2011.pdf ):

Öl-Brennwert-Wandgerät
mit zweistufigem Compact-Blaubrenner
für raumluftabhängigen und raumluftunabhängigen Betrieb
Für den Betrieb mit Heizöl DIN 51603-1 EL schwefelarm
und Heizöl DIN 51603-6 EL A Bio 10: Heizöl EL schwefelarm
mit Zumischungen bis zu 10 % Biokomponenten
(FAME)

Translation:

Oil condensing wall mounted boiler
with 2 step Compact blueburner
for room-dependant and room-independant operation
For the operation with with heating oil DIN 51603-1 EL ( EL=extra light, Kerosene ) low-sulfur and heating oil DIN 51603-6 EL ( ...) low-sulfur with addition up to 10% bio-components (FAME)

DGOBS

If only I spoke German!

So why in your opinion are these not for sale here?

heinbloed

DGOBS asks:

So why in your opinion are these not for sale here?

I can only speculate: The market isn't demanding these modern boilers, being kept uninformed by their representatives who have more than one 'client'. See the OFTEC position on the introduction of modulating oil condensing boilers and lowering of NOX emissions.

http://www.dunravensystems.com/?p=1
http://www.directoil.co.uk/news/heating-oil-news/Non-modulating-oil-boilers-are-no-less-efficient.aspx

To protect the smooth sale of profitable bangers. The unholy alliance with the oil industry to sell and burn more oil (Chevron Dublin/ OFTEC). And so on.....

B.t.w.:
Viessmann has a new type of boiler in petto, propably for sale from 2012.
A modulating condensing boiler with zeolite technology, running on gas or oil.

See

http://m.viessmann.de/en/product_categories/43/products/69?page=1

They have been field tested since 2009 and seem to do the job.

Zeolite home heating technology - this could be another decade until the official trade starts here.


PS

Concerning the list of modulating condensing oil boilers:
You wrote

Last one, warmflow, isn't modulating

Are you sure? Should I remove it from the list?

DGOBS

Yes 100% remove it (the riello rdb burner on it is fixed, not modulating)

But again, why has the likes of Viessmann who has no involvement with Oftec, choose not to market it here?

As I said, their outlet here (Precision Heat) only have the cast iron Viessmann oil boilers on the website (this is why I said I didn't think the Viessmann was a condensing boiler and the graphics in the manual you linked looks like a gas boiler, hadn't considered blue flame burners)

The efficiency gain seems pretty low 3-5% over non modulating, so would have to be reasonably priced to justify the installation and additional possibly extra maintenance/service/breakdown costs incurred (more electronics etc. usually equate to more expensive parts, and more failures)

Not against any technology, but need some convincing here, may even install one here for myself just to play with!

heinbloed

But again, why has the likes of Viessmann who has no involvement with Oftec, choose not to market it here?

More likely - and I'm guessing only - Viessmann sells only what is ordered.
What does Precision Heating say about the situation? Maybe they could order them if demand was there?

DGOBS

I will be in Viessmann in Teford shortly after Xmas, will ask them directly

heinbloed

Here another domestic modulating condensing boiler running on oil:

http://www.boesch.at/fileadmin/user_upload/heizung%20Prospekte/boesch_WTC_OW.pdf

No Englisch web page available so far.

The Boesch modulates between 5 kW and 15 kW and has a DHW tank included.
The buyer has the choice between a standard 115 liter tank producing 200liters of DHW and

as a speciality for lime rich / hard water a 100 liter 'ring storage tank' ("Ringspeicher") version is available as well.

See pictures at page 4 of the linked pdf data sheet. The right picture shows the corrugated stainless steel storage tank.

Corrugated stainless steel pipes have a lower tendency to be silted up by lime deposits, the expanding and contracting movement cracks and breaks up lime deposits.
So the heat exchanger (the corrugated stainless steel pipe running through the tank) stays more or less clean, it's efficiency guaranteed 'for ever'.

The max. pressure for the DHW side is 10 bar !

DGOBS

Any if these suppliers with even a ball park price? (boiler only)

heinbloed

Any if these suppliers with even a ball park price? (boiler only)

I don't know any supplier. The best would be to contact the manufacturers and ask for a direct price or for a local/next trader. Since these boilers are still not very common in Ireland/the UK why not offering to become their sole trader - in change for a good training and a good price?
Ebay, Alibaba, Amazone etc.. might have a choice as well.

P.S.
I saw OFTEC complaining about the prices of modulating condensing oil boilers - maybe some member can get the prices and publish them here?
OFTEC also said the "small EU countries" are pushing modulating condensing oil boilers - any clarification on this statement?

heinbloed

I've checked e-bay

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&clk_rvr_id=285663604677&customid=oesg&item=150611263445

and

http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&clk_rvr_id=285662716771&customid=oesg&item=120730908957

The Weishaupt WTC-OW 15 ( fully modulating from 5-15 kW) costs there
€ 4609.38


Another online search engine gives for the Viessmann Vitoladens 300W (two stage modulating from 12.9 - 23.5 kW)
prices from € 4222.80 upwards, see

http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/MainSearchProductCategory.html?q=Viessmann+Vitoladens+300-W

and

http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/1067708_-vitoladens-300-w-19-3-kw-viessmann.html?ts=1321628480673

DGOBS

alot considering a condensing non-modulating is est. €1500 and roughly only 3-4% less efficient, so somewhere between 10-15 years payback!
Assuming they are similar to gas boilers in design (heat exchangers etc look similar) then lifespan would 10-15 years......

lol@ small eu countries, Oftec have always had their own agenda, but it seems these boilers maybe hard to justify the cost, why are
they so expensive I wonder, as I said once at Viessmann I will look further into this in the new year

heinbloed

True, they are (still) expensive compared to what is established.
Only a high demand throughout the year (business, hotel etc.) would justify the investment.
We had a similar situation with the prices when the first condensing boiler came into the market about 20 years ago, in today's money it was about €5,000. About 10,000 Swiss Francs at the time.
Similar to the first pellet boiler.
But as soon as competitition starts we will see a price drop.

An interesting alternative could be the flue-gas heat exchanger, a simple boiler (non-condensing) can be turned into a condensing boiler. For less than €500.-.
Weishaupt had one of them in their cataloge in 2005, see page 25-27 here

http://www.weishaupt.it/local/documentBase/it/20-I-03-01.pdf

Propably also expensive at the time, but competitors are many and they do them for cheap.

The boilers are still new technology and costly for the manufactures to make, if they can devolpe them to be easier to mass produce the price will drop in the same way as gas boilers(if forced to make them in the same way), it's only in the last few years that condensing gas boilers have become a mass produced product which is reflected in the price, as for the Viessmann when the Uk ran tests a few years ago they held the boiler back at the time as they found there was a issue with the oil flame and the impact it had on the heat exchanger, they were concerned with the 10 year warranty something they must have a answer for now.

DGOBS

All well and good, but it has taken years to convince people & governments that condensing boilers were worth the effort, and that was with an approx. gain of 10% in efficiciency.
How long realistically do we expect it's going to take for the same change of attitude when only such a small gain is present (3%)
I can't realistically see this happening unless the industry is forced into this situation, and as the technology here seems newish and unproven on a large scale (hence the high cost of manufacture) it would seem unfair to force such a costly change onto consumers where no cost benifets yet exist.

For me I would believe a better starting point is to develop an industry standard where proper boiler sizing is mandatory to stop the gross over sizing of appliances, which is the primary cause of so many appliances short cycling and wasting fuel.

I am all for new technology and enjoy seeing the industry advance technically, but there has to be financial justification hand in hand with reduced environmental impact, and maybe that should really be more focused at this stage on unchaining ourselves for the oil (and other fossil fuel) heating that we cling onto and justify by squeezing the last .0001% fom the fuel.

I see these boilers certainly as an improvement, but all be it an unjustified one (for now) for once I feel myself climbing over the Oftec fence to stand beside them, but always open to convincing