How long can they keep Cena babyface?

SlickRic

is it time to bite the bullet?

his merch isn't up there as easily the most sought after anymore, the gimmick is beyond stale, and as much as I'm a fan of the guy's attitude, he must need a change of pace.

Survivor Series could be a great time to do it. Or maybe leave it until Royal Rumble.

But a long term Cena turn must surely be around the corner...for the good of the brand, how long can WWE possibly resist the fúcking patently necessary?

make the kids and women cry, please. it'll be epic, and they WILL find somebody else...

G-Money

If they can turn Hogan heel, they can turn anyone heel IMHO. I think Cena is likely to get over a bit more if he was a heel. He's not the biggest merchandise seller apparently these days. That honour belongs to Punk.

Batista's heel turn was very entertaining and I think it got him over a bit with those who had started to boo him as a face.

I'd say Cena will have to turn heel eventually, but I wonder will he try to do some sort of Bret Hart style turn, where he's a face to the women and children, but a heel to everyone else, the way Bret was a face in Canada and boo'd like funk in the US. Not sure how that would work though.

Rjd2

Who can replace him? Orton's drawing ability is doubtful, Trips is part time, Masters is fired, do you believe Punk can fill his spot?

rovert

Rjd2 wrote: »

Who can replace him? Orton's drawing ability is doubtful, Trips is part time, Masters is fired, do you believe Punk can fill his spot?

Vince is waiting for Skip Sheffield to come back.

SlickRic

Rjd2 wrote: »

Who can replace him? Orton's drawing ability is doubtful, Trips is part time, Masters is fired, do you believe Punk can fill his spot?

i think Punk can draw.

merch-wise, he's killing it, and if the WWE fully get behind the character, then IMO, definitely. i mean, he sold MITB basically on his own with this gimmick.

also, Cena as a heel, has great drawing potential IMO. it's been coming for so long, i think there's be great interest in how it plays out.

JP Liz V1

SlickRic wrote: »

i think Punk can draw.

merch-wise, he's killing it, and if the WWE fully get behind the character, then IMO, definitely. i mean, he sold MITB basically on his own with this gimmick.

also, Cena as a heel, has great drawing potential IMO. it's been coming for so long, i think there's be great interest in how it plays out.

But can Punk get over with the younger fans though

x43r0

Rjd2 wrote: »

Who can replace him? Orton's drawing ability is doubtful, Trips is part time, Masters is fired, do you believe Punk can fill his spot?

Did you keep a straight face typing that? :pac:

SlickRic

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

But can Punk get over with the younger fans though

yes.

if Cena turns heel properly, it could go a long way to cementing the younger generation for Punk.

you don't have to be sugary, sweet and nice to get over with a young audience.

and also, anyway, PPVs are bought, by and large, by those with disposable income...the early 20 somethings. they'll get with Punk. and you can still have your Kofis and Evan Bournes who can keep the kiddies entertained.

you can still have Punk be edgy, and Raw be a family show. lack of PG would probably make it a little easier, but it's still extremely doable.

it's a myth that he can't get over with the vast majority of the public.

kids will always love a rebel too

Rjd2

rovert wrote: »

Vince is waiting for Skip Sheffield to come back.

Mason Ryan will do for now.:)

gimmick

G-Money wrote: »

I wonder will he try to do some sort of Bret Hart style turn, where he's a face to the women and children, but a heel to everyone else, the way Bret was a face in Canada and boo'd like funk in the US. Not sure how that would work though.

Isn't that the case at the moment in truth? He gets as mnay boo's as he does cheers.

the problem with Cena as I see it is that the second he is turned heel the smarks will start cheering him.

At the moment, he is perfectly placed as the type of character mentioned above. He gets reactions, be they good or bad, he gets reactions. Look at MITB. Probably the loudest booing I have heard of any wrestler I have ever heard. Look at the other nights Raw. He was booed and cheered in equal measure.

For the record, I cannot take his current character. It annoys me. It is fast forward button all the time. But I am a cranky old fúck. I would like to see the character changing, but I really do not think it is necessary in the main.

rovert

Rjd2 wrote: »

Mason Ryan will do for now.:)

No Vince did want to push Skip as the No.2 babyface behind Cena before he got hurt.

G-Money

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but is part of the reason Cena is the top face is because of his look. I don't mean his muscles, but when you compare his image to someone like Punk who is covered in tattoo's etc, Cena might be more of a "role model" or "family friendly" so to speak than someone who looks like Punk or Orton.

Furious-Red

gimmick wrote: »

the problem with Cena as I see it is that the second he is turned heel the smarks will start cheering him.

Thats what popped straight into my head , they will then start to cheer him just to be different

campo

They could have the Miz replace him as top babyface , I reckon he could be a huge seller of merch plus im sure the kids would love his IM AWESOME cathphrase

gimmick

But no one is more perfectly placed than Miz at the moment. He is a great heel who does not need a face turn anytime soon.

I have seen it being argued that he will be remembered as a top face at the end of career, but I do not see it. I would like to see him as a career heel.

Pentecost

Sheamus is getting a big push as a face right now. I could see the kids getting behind him due to his different look, particularly if he gets another title reign soon.

SlickRic

G-Money wrote: »

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but is part of the reason Cena is the top face is because of his look. I don't mean his muscles, but when you compare his image to someone like Punk who is covered in tattoo's etc, Cena might be more of a "role model" or "family friendly" so to speak than someone who looks like Punk or Orton.

you're absolutely 100% spot on.

Rjd2

rovert wrote: »

No Vince did want to push Skip as the No.2 babyface behind Cena before he got hurt.

Now that you remind me, I remember those rumors, dude is a beast and can work so it wouldn't have been the worst idea ever, can't be any worse than Teddy or Alex Riley at least.:P

jaykhunter

ugh, i hate hearing about "turn Cena heel". People have been banging on about turning him since 2006. Yes, creatively it'd be very fresh, but WWE don't have anyone big enough to take his place and haven't been grooming anyone to do so. It wouldn't make any financial sense. It'd be as silly as when TNA turned Jeff Hardy - their #1 merch seller at the time - heel, and lost out on their biggest draw and had nothing to replace him with. Plus, he'd still be feuding with the same people, so who really cares.

It seems every year something happens which starts up the rumour mill that he'll finally turn heel, become more edgy etc....no, he's not. Jeff Hardy could've done so in 2009 but he ruined his career. CM Punk - i don't know if he can be the superface that'd usurp Cena but he's certainly worth a try - but WWE are unwilling to go full out with it because they're incapable of taking risks, now that there's no competition.

Basically it's never gonna happen, and for that reason, I'd love to never hear about it ever again.

rovert

jaykhunter wrote: »

ugh, i hate hearing about "turn Cena heel". People have been banging on about turning him since 2006.

So do you think Undertaker will Wrestle at Mania this year?

Do you think they should end the streak?

:P

rovert

This may not mean anything to many here but Ive been on a major Chikara kick this week so indulge me. Pretty much the only heel turn which would shock and intrigue me is if Mike Quackenbush ever turned in Chikara.

The delineation between faces and heels means so little these days. Cena the character has be a childish dick on many occasions, a (homophobic) bully and has blown off losing titles and matches as no big deal too many times for anyone to live & die by him.

Mr.Nice Guy

Lance Storm made an interesting comment a while back where he said he didn't think, in-ring wise, Cena would be able to work heel.

GTR63

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lance Storm - interesting

Never

savemejebus

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lance Storm made an interesting comment a while back where he said he didn't think, in-ring wise, Cena would be able to work heel.

That sounds familiar, was this something to do with him being so banged up that his body couldn't take the extra bumps that being heel generally brings?

Mr.Nice Guy

savemejebus wrote: »

That sounds familiar, was this something to do with him being so banged up that his body couldn't take the extra bumps that being heel generally brings?

Yeah that was part of it. I found the comment:

Q: For years John Cena seems to be in the same place Rocky Maivia and HBK were (during his first WWE title run) by being the "white meat baby face" but while it was decided to turn them both heel, Cena is still face. I'm guessing Rock and Shawn both sold a lot of merchandise to kids too so why do you think Cena isn't heel?

A: I think there are a lot of reasons. I think there is a bigger gap between Cena and the number 2 seller than there was with Rock or HBK. In Rock's case didn't WWE have Austin as a top face merchandise seller at the time? I also don't think Cena would be a good heel. There is a big difference between working as a heel and working as a face. The heel has to be far more versatile, and take a lot more bumps than a face does. Cena is already quite banged up, so putting him in the more physically demanding role could shorten his career. Cena is also not the most versatile well rounded worker, so he may not be able to be a good heel. On top of that he is great with media and charity functions, which he does a ton of. Turning him heel would affect that part of business too.

I think it's a fair assessment atm.

rossie1977

G-Money wrote: »

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way but is part of the reason Cena is the top face is because of his look.

looking like cena hasnt helped darren young so far

rossie1977

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lance Storm made an interesting comment a while back where he said he didn't think, in-ring wise, Cena would be able to work heel.

his heel work in 2003 was terrific and he was also a fantastic antagonist against rvd at ons2 a match he was essentially a heel, i would have no worries about cenas in-ring work as a heel, he would be much less limited to what he could do in-ring compared to now

not sure i agree with storm on his assessment that he would have to take more bumps as a heel, currently he takes the majority of the beat downs in his matches, against miz and orton they beat the living crap out of him for 20+ mins

GTR63

rossie1977 wrote: »

his heel work in 2003 was terrific and he was also a fantastic antagonist against rvd at ons2 a match he was essentially a heel, i would have no worries about cenas in-ring work as a heel, he would be much less limited to what he could do in-ring compared to now

not sure i agree with storm on his assessment that he would have to take more bumps as a heel, currently he takes the majority of the beat downs in his matches, against miz and orton they beat the living crap out of him for 20+ mins

Ah 2003 when rvd gave a crap, anyway I think what Storm is getting at is that Cena is pretty banged up and taking bumps more often as a heel may effect him in the long run.

Mr.Nice Guy

rossie1977 wrote: »

his heel work in 2003 was terrific and he was also a fantastic antagonist against rvd at ons2 a match he was essentially a heel, i would have no worries about cenas in-ring work as a heel, he would be much less limited to what he could do in-ring compared to now

not sure i agree with storm on his assessment that he would have to take more bumps as a heel, currently he takes the majority of the beat downs in his matches, against miz and orton they beat the living crap out of him for 20+ mins

I agree with you about the quality of his heel work in '03 but he was working with the likes of Angle, Lesnar and Eddie Guerrero. These days Cena would be the senior figure in the company and it would be a big ask to expect him to control long matches which most heels have to do.

My own view on the Cena heel turn is that it shouldn't happen until there is a babyface that can step up and replace him. I don't see Punk as a guy that can fill the role. To be honest I've found him very boring since his summer storyline petered out.

Pentecost

His storyline may have petered out but Punk appears to be massively over at the minute. Top merchandise seller, live crowds by eye witness accounts going crazy for him. He's going to be feuding for the title for the next while, can't see his popularity with, for want of a better phrase, non smarks, going down any time soon. He doesn't have to push it much for the next while he's got to where he wanted to go.

DM_7

Are the majority that boo, booing Cena as they don't like him or because its "cool"?

A lot of the boo boys lost their cool persona when Cena returned unexpectadly at the rumble a few years back.

If a heel is disliked enough the majority of fans seem to get behind him. Take Nexus or Batista.

The problem at the moment is Miz and Truth have totally failed as a real heel group. They include entertaining moments the crowd can get into during their promos or back stage stuff rather than acting like people the fans have no reason to cheer.

Wade or Cody are far better heels.

bradlente

He's already a heel for anyone over the age of 12 that isn't mentally challenged.

GTR63

DM-ICE wrote: »

Are the majority that boo, booing Cena as they don't like him or because its "cool"?

A lot of the boo boys lost their cool persona when Cena returned unexpectadly at the rumble a few years back.

If a heel is disliked enough the majority of fans seem to get behind him. Take Nexus or Batista.

The problem at the moment is Miz and Truth have totally failed as a real heel group. They include entertaining moments the crowd can get into during their promos or back stage stuff rather than acting like people the fans have no reason to cheer.

Wade or Cody are far better heels.

Miz/Truth haven't failed its impossible to take them as a serious threat when Cena ran through them last week, laughed when they beat him this week and needed 50 something year old Kevin Nash to beat Punk and HHH. As for Wade Barrett he barely gets heat that isn't canned and has never had a match that was above mediocre, i'm still waiting for him to have a breakthrough moment being a Julius Caesar enthusiast doesn't matter.

chopperbyrne

DM-ICE wrote: »

Are the majority that boo, booing Cena as they don't like him or because its "cool"?

A lot of the boo boys lost their cool persona when Cena returned unexpectadly at the rumble a few years back.
If a heel is disliked enough the majority of fans seem to get behind him. Take Nexus or Batista.

The problem at the moment is Miz and Truth have totally failed as a real heel group. They include entertaining moments the crowd can get into during their promos or back stage stuff rather than acting like people the fans have no reason to cheer.

Wade or Cody are far better heels.

Most of the guys booing Cena appreciate him for what he's done and what he can do, but have just got tired of him, much like people got tired of Hogan at the start of the 90's.

Nobody expected Cena back that night, but even his detractors had to mark out for a few seconds as it was a huge surprise.

His character is very stale though, but kids don't care about that and that's the target market for Cena. Punk is now the target market for adults and the WWE can keep everyone happy.

When he does turn heel it'll be big. The only problem will be that the adults will start to cheer for him, which could ruin the whole thing.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yeah that was part of it. I found the comment:



I think it's a fair assessment atm.

I'd have thought a face would take more bumps overall having to sell for long stretches of a match than a heel? I also think Cena cold perfectly well wok heel and anyone saying he couldn't seriously underestimates his ability as a wrestler. He's be fine.

Machismo Fan

flahavaj wrote: »

I'd have thought a face would take more bumps overall having to sell for long stretches of a match than a heel? I also think Cena cold perfectly well wok heel and anyone saying he couldn't seriously underestimates his ability as a wrestler. He's be fine.

That and he was a perfectly effective heel before.

jaykhunter

I think people would stop clamering for a heel cena if he wasn't such a gratingly awful babyface. the forced delivery, the terrible gerwitz comedy, being booked to destroy any upcoming opposition... He could learn a thing or two from Shawn Michaels.

RE : His Royal Rumble return; i think the initial big pop proves that people are willing to cheer Cena, even the biggest detractors (smark town in NYC) until Cena reminded everyone of why he sucks.

I think WWE have forgotten that wrestling isn't actually hard, they could have everyone cheering for Cena, and not be content with 50/50.

Machismo Fan

Cena in no way sucks, his scripting is just absolutely horrendous. The man is without doubt one of the most talented performers on the planet. On actually committing to turning him heel I've always believed that wrestling companies should go with the flow with this kind of stuff (within reason). If they organically start consistently cheering or booing a guy when they're not supposed to be, turn them. Why stubbornly go against what people want to see?

jaykhunter

Ha, so how about whenever anyone says "Cena" they mean "Cena the character", because Cena the character absolutely sucks; the contrived, script-spewing, laughy-then-shouty gimp. He's very poor with delivery - i simply don't believe what he's saying, it's obvious he's reciting a script - we won't find out but I'd bet that Shawn Michaels or HHH could do better with the same script. His story-telling in the ring has gotten much better (with the right opponent it can be excellent) but his technical execution is still quite sloppy, even after 7 years working with the best WWE has to offer.

Nothing but love for Cena the person though; hardworking and consummate professional company man. It's a shame he doesn't use his considerable clout for the betterment of his character and the company.

WWE stopped taking risks on March 23, 2001, and they never have to again

parker kent

Wait is this bizarro world? I know I got pretty f'd up after the Ireland match so I could be imagining things, but I didn't think Slick would be putting up a thread saying that Cena should be turned heel :pac:

I think they are really flogging a dead horse at this stage. There is nothing at all that Cena can do as a face that is fresh. How many times will we see random heel of the month challenge Cena, lose and then move back down the card. Now that a viable alternative exists as lead face, they should give it a go. The only reasons people said it couldn't be done (t-shirt sales, kids love him etc) are fading by the month.

He would need to seriously up his game in promos though were he to turn heel. Acting as if he reading out a script will suck regardless of whether he is a heel or face. Look at Del Rio's failure to move beyond the banal (ADR needs help with his promos big time IMO). Being a heel does not equal instant street cred.

Shattered Dreamer

A Cena heel turn just will not happen until the little kids stop cheering for him & their parents stop buying the merch. I was at the WWE Raw event in the O2 recently & every little kid was wearing some sort of John Cena merch. His character is tailored to be a hero that little kids can look up too & he does that incredibly well!

Sure he's character is as stale as month old bread to the teenage fans & 20 something fans like myself but his character isn't for us it's for the kids! Sure CM Punk is becoming a huge star as time goes on but his character is geared towards the slightly older fan & until either WWE drops the PG direction (don't bet on this guys because selling crap to kids is making WWE a bucket load of money) or they find a new character to market to kids we are stuck with "Super Cena".

Personally I think Zack Ryder could be the next big hero for the young wrestling fan, kids really get behind that taking your vitamins saying your prayers kinda cheesy stuff.

Shattered Dreamer

parker kent wrote: »

He would need to seriously up his game in promos though were he to turn heel. Acting as if he reading out a script will suck regardless of whether he is a heel or face.

Check out Cena's rap promos from his feud with Brock Lesnar they are great promos. My personal favourite is his one from his first title match against Brock.

parker kent

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Check out Cena's rap promos from his feud with Brock Lesnar they are great promos. My personal favourite is his one from his first title match against Brock.

I'm seriously not getting into all this Cena stuff again as it has come up here God knows how many times over the last 18 months. I think I had some pretty unfair posts directed towards me in previous threads, so I'm going to say as little as possible here. I watched those raps. I didn't really like them. They weren't terrible, but I didn't like them.

But the product as a whole needs a massive change, and Cena turning heel could be that change.

Shattered Dreamer

parker kent wrote: »

But the product as a whole needs a massive change, and Cena turning heel could be that change.

I would settle for storylines that get built up properly, don't get rush & most of all make sense. I don't think turning Cena heel is going to be the game changer or even breath of fresh air that the IWC think it's gonna be. In my opinion it will bomb similar to Austin's heel turn at Wrestlemania X-7

I think booking Sheamus, Zack Ryder, Air Boom stronger as faces & Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger & Wade Barrett as stronger heels it would improve the product far more than a Cena heel turn.

Taking the focus off Cena & Orton will improve the product no end & CM Punk getting back in the Main Event is a step in the right direction.

jaykhunter

I absolutely loved heel rap Cena in 2003ish but it was strictly a midcard gimmick imo; i don't think it'd work main-eventing PPVs on a consistent basis. That said who knows how deep Cena's potential as a heel goes, but I imagine it's at least 4 times better than his scripted face-run goes. Or maybe it'd flop like Austin's 2001 heel-run. But we'll never know.

Shattered Dreamer

jaykhunter wrote: »

I absolutely loved heel rap Cena in 2003ish but it was strictly a midcard gimmick imo; i don't think it'd work main-eventing PPVs on a consistent basis.

To me the heel rap promos prove that Cena is more than capable of being an edgy heel if that's a direction WWE decided to take Cena's character. Cena's next program now with The Rock from Survivor Series until Wrestlemania will probably be the catalyst for a Cena heel turn if we're ever going to see one.

jaykhunter

Nothing's ever a catalyst for a Cena heel turn. (:() He's been booed out of more hostile environments but nothing ever comes of it. tbh Cena's had more negative reactions in general over a sustained period of time and WWE refused to listen to the fans; i think a lot of the current arena-goers have accepted that it's not gonna happen. He'll never get a sustained (over many shows) total heel reaction because WWE's direction have driven a lot of hardcore fans away and there are a lot of kids/families in the audience that love Cena.

WWE have missed a prime opportunity with Punk to make him the next torch bearer/main-babyface - he's been woefully mishandled since his return - but they can still recover it, but until someone's groomed to take over, there's no point or sense in banging drums about a heel Cena. Just an exercise in futility, unfortunately.

gimmick

Re his pop at the Rumble a few years back. Honest to God, I think that pop had an awful lot to do with the fact that people were about to be disgusted that Trippers was about to win it, and Cena coming in as a surprise stopped the HHHate.

As Jay said, NYC = Smark town.

Aidan1985

It's funny to think that heel Cena would actually have a bigger mature fanbase. I think if WWE was to step away from the PG Era, a Cena heel turn would make WWE worthwhile again. There was great potential between Punk and Cena going back a few months but they didn't do anything with it. That angle was great; I was actually interested in what Cena had to say on the mic. I think eventually he'll turn heel. Hoping in anyways.

Shattered Dreamer

Aidan1985 wrote: »

I think if WWE was to step away from the PG Era, a Cena heel turn would make WWE worthwhile again.

Until the PG era stops being profitable from a mechanising stand point we will never see WWE TV-14 again. WWE can offset smaller live event gates & lower PPV buys against the profit on they are making on merch. Jim Ross gets asked the "when will WWE end the PG era" question on Twitter I'd say several times a day & that's always the answer. Believe it or not WWE is making profits similar to the Attitude Era just from selling crap to kids & at the end of the day WWE is a business & making money comes first. All TV-14 can do for the product anyway is bring back blood, T & A (I don't mean talent & ability) & minor swear words in promos, which wouldn't make much difference to the current product.

WWE will become "worthwhile again" when the storylines begin to make sense again. I still like the WWE product, it's not as good storyline wise as when I was say 7 or 8 or even later in my teens but the alternatives of watching TNA or spotfest Indy matches just doesn't appeal to me. I've been following NJPW & AJPW via Youtube but as much as I like their matches without knowing Japanese the storylines are not going to make sense

parker kent

Every time there is a thread on this online, the PG issue is raised. PG does not mean they storylines have to be nonsensical or uninteresting. The NWO-era WCW was PG. Plus as I always say here, The Dark Knight was PG. PG does not excuse lazy, shoddy writing. PG does not excuse the way that the WWE have failed to build viable alternatives to the current main eventers.

CM Punk seems to have enough support to ride out the mishandling of his push since the summer, but many, many others have failed needlessly.

[QUOTE=Shattered Dreamer;75445522I don't think turning Cena heel is going to be the game changer or even breath of fresh air that the IWC think it's gonna be. In my opinion it will bomb similar to Austin's heel turn at Wrestlemania X-7[/QUOTE]

If handled correctly (correctly being a very, very important word), it would change things. The main focus on almost every Raw is face-Cena. The lead face always dominates and drives the show. So when the show is being dominated by tired storylines, it is impossible to have a game changer. I really don't think it is similar to the Austin heel turn. Sure Austin was getting stale, but the fans simply did not want to boo him. He was fundamentally liked as a face. Cena is not by a large amount of fans.

Plus I believe that the kids that like him will reach a point when they become teenagers and see him as the contrived, faux-Marine that the writers and Cena have created. Somebody like CM Punk could the guy that they grab onto as they become teenagers and look for somebody a bit "cooler" for want of a better word.